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Started by JackieB4 • 50 replies • 554 views

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JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

We are an Hoa of 140 single homes with a newly elected BOD. Pre-covid we met in neighborhood homes(several decades) for our bimonthly meetings. Easy, with no disturbing issues. Covid realistically created virtual meetings, but I (President) now want to abide by our documents(1986) that state a local location must be available. I have offered my home, along with supporting Virtual option. Both could/should be available. PM of 6 years objected to on-site location, insisting virtual only. "No one attends meetings anyway." I have irritated PM by identifying the page/sections that mandated local meeting location. We don't have a clubhouse, etc.

Our meeting is Jan. 9 and we just received agenda + Exec session report. Exec session discussion,IN BOLD LETTERS, "Board members contact information should not be provided to homeowners, to ensure that directors are not acting in a board member capacity outside of board meetings which will minimize potential Board and Personal Liability." This has never been an issue and actually surprised me that PM is suggesting an anonymous Board? Obviously I disagree. I appreciate the comments and sharing of ideas this site provides.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

So, Jackie, I assume you cited the below to your PM re: having an in-person component to your board meetings. It's nonsense that Owners do not attend. We get about 15 in person, 15 via Zoom each month (200+ condos)

Calif. Civil Code § 4090. "Board Meeting" Defined.  “Board meeting” means...   (a) A congregation, at the same time and place, of a sufficient number of directors...., to hear, discuss, or deliberate upon any item of business that is within the authority of the board.   [Or] (b) A teleconference, where... directors...in different locations, are connected by electronic means.....[T]he notice of the teleconference meeting shall identify at least one physical location so that members of the association may attend, and at least one director or a person designated by the board shall be present at that location. Participation by directors in a teleconference meeting constitutes presence at that meeting as long as all directors participating are able to hear one another, as well as members of the association speaking on matters before the board. "

Your PM also is wrong to place a discussion of whether hiding directors' contact info (which is not the same as making them "anonymous") in executive session. The topic meets 0 of the criteria to qualify for ex. session. (No, directors are NOT personnel). Is your PM a certified CAM or similar????

We have a full-time on site PM & asst. PM. Owners should never contact directors about maintenance or other issues and should contact the Board as a whole via the PM, during open forum at monthly open meetings, or with agenda items of their own. There are, of course, self-manage HOAs where contact of individual directors might be common.

The names of all directors and officers are in our monthly newsletter. Their contact info isn't publicized but any owners can get a list of members' addresses and email addys via written request to management in CA.

Imo, a discussion among directors of whether board members should give individual advice, opinions, etc. to owners who might ask them (or badger them) is a VERY good topic for the board to discuss in an open meeting. why does your PM want to hide it??

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

The property manager works at the board's direction, as Kerri noted, so you and your colleagues should remind him or her of that in no uncertain terms. Given the size of your community, I'm sure you don't want tons of people everywhere (think about the clean up!). There may be a church or community center that has a room you can rent.

I would still try to keep the virtual option available - even if we get over COVID (someday?) it could be a good way for homebound people who have disabilities, elderly relatives or young children to participate, it's also an option in case of bad weather, like that deep freeze most of the country had around Christmas.

As for the contact information, it's best to have one point of contact, like an email address that all board mebers can access. Everyone sees the same information so there's no confusion over you saying one thing and the secretary saying something else. Besides, all of you have a life outside the association- do you really want to be inundated with emails and phone calls ?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Kerry, thanks for the RSVP; it doesn't make sense to me either. Yes, PM is certified.
There are a variety of reasons why no one now attends meetings: Prior Covid, attending meetings was common maybe 5-6 attended every other month? But new BOD (2016) hired their PMC (2016) from prior neighborhood. The BOD attitude changed about user-friendly meetings and times/dates/locations were constantly changed with notice being posted 4 days prior meeting date, which was inconsistent. Many new neighbors were/are unfamiliar with HOAs, website portals, etc. and until they have an issue, family/job matters are their priority and easily understood.
Yes, am familiar with CC-4090 and reminded PM of such. FYI, I have purchased a Speakerphone for our meetings in my home. Holding meetings in my home hardly supports the "no contact information is provided to members." Equally important, BOD should understand potential Board liability long before accepting this diversified responsibility.
I asked for several "meeting issues" to be in open session, but PM placed them purposedly in Exec??? My other 2 BOD colleagues feel PM is getting paid alot of money each month "so they should know what they are advising." When I mentioned that PM said we were elected for 2 year terms (no...1 year term, annual election) the PAST President said "Who cares? I don't mind being on for another 2 years."
When I campaigned for the BOD, I sincerely expressed my open door policy which was never abused when I was prior Pres. 15 years ago. I hope to return our community to friendlier/neighborly (not in-your-face) days prior 2016.
I remain in awe that PM is discouraging any/all communication with us, 3 BOD from our members. There has been no glitches, lawsuits or abuses from prior BOD/members; but I have witnessed several errors with this PM's advice. Onward!

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Shelia, I always appreciate your sage advice also. Yes, there is an obvious power stuggle between PM and me. I know she works at our direction and not vice versa, which is why I am speechless (lol-hardly) over her BOLD WORDING of no Board contact info to homeowners . Which planet is she from? Our 1986 CCR's/Bylaws are clear about on-site location (my home works) and Virtual is an added bonus for many/most? members. The contact info is about members Knowing who their BOD is and how to contact them if a Board member permits it?
We have a very manageable community, no pools, parks, garage structures, etc that need maintenance. We are ndividual homes, small yards, nice community. I have lived here 21 years, served on all committees including Board (years ago) and have seen "better days." The neighbor turnover has seriously increased the past several years. Most are clueless and I feel the BOD should/can gently educate all concerned. I don't feel this is delusional. It's the PM that's the PITA!!

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

The PM is not wrong about the potential issues of giving homeowners the board members' personal contact information and holding meetings inside individuals' homes.

* Email communications are potentially association records that must be preserved and that are discoverable in the case of litigation. Best practices include creating a single separate email address for the entire board that is auto-forwarded to the individual directors (and PM if appropriate). This also has the advantage of being easy for homeowners to remember and not requiring a change every time directors come and go, which they do regularly.

* Conducting meetings inside a person's home has safety and liability implications for everyone, and not just during pandemics. If someone is holding meetings in their home, they should talk to their insurance agent to make sure they're adequately insured.

* Individual homes are also probably not equipped for handicapped access unless the owner already has a disability of some sort, unlike public buildings that probably are. This means that homeowners who have an issue would not be able to attend the meetings. What happens if you're asked for a reasonable accommodation, which by law the association must provide?

* Meetings in public buildings also help remind attendees that this is a professional meeting and not just a social hour at a neighbor's house. It helps ensure proper behavior.

* The PM is correct that a single board member is not the voice of the association - the entire board is. Some years ago we had a kerfuffle in my community that resulted in an email message reminding homeowners to contact our main HOA email or phone number and *not* to contact individual board members if the homeowner had questions or issues. Liability was specifically mentioned, and this email message was followed shortly thereafter by an abrupt resignation by the board president.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Jackie, you really should not let the PM bully you into having items in executive session that are not permitted by the CA Open Meeting Act. What matters is the PM trying to place in ex. session that shouldn't be? Show your fellow board members the verbiage about executive session that you can find at Davis-stiling.com, Executive Session.

Direct the PM to place the items in the open meeting.

I've heard of rogue boards who make it very hard for owners to attend meetings via a few methods. You must make sure your PM consistently posts meeting notices & agenda. It's up to the board to schedule your rear open meetings at a consistent time/date. Does the PM write meeting minutes?

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

The manager is behaving inappropriately and you’ve received lots of good advice in handling that.

I would not get too hung up on the “local” meeting requirement in your documents as they were likely written before the existence of Zoom and similar, so could not have contemplated its existence.

I would never encourage a meeting in a neighbors home. For all the reasons cited in prior posts and because people will stay forever and because there have just been too many instances of board members murdered lately.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/07/2023 9:41 AM
Jackie, you really should not let the PM bully you into having items in executive session that are not permitted by the CA Open Meeting Act. What matters is the PM trying to place in ex. session that shouldn't be? Show your fellow board members the verbiage about executive session that you can find at Davis-stiling.com, Executive Session.

Direct the PM to place the items in the open meeting.

I've heard of rogue boards who make it very hard for owners to attend meetings via a few methods. You must make sure your PM consistently posts meeting notices & agenda. It's up to the board to schedule your rear open meetings at a consistent time/date. Does the PM write meeting minutes?

Having owned a management company for a number of years, IMHO, the PM is wrong, but only because it's a power thing. IMHO, it's time to find a new one. Board contact should be made available to owners, as there might be times when the owner may not want to communicate with the PM.

Few people in California truly understand how the Open Meeting Act really works. From experience, things will get discussed in Executive Session that shouldn't, but all decisions that should be approved in Open Session, are.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Kerry, Barbara, Max: Yes, you get my PM struggles and I appreciate your responses BIG TIME!! Firstly, and hopefully successful, face-to-face encourages understanding the dos and don'ts of guiding a HOA community. So much anger and hostility is simply not understanding the DOCS each signed when they bought their single family home. Listening/hearing in person seems to diffuse alot of hot air; Secondly, having lived here 21 years I have seen the BEFORE and AFTER of community friendliness. As a retired HOA member, I have the time and energy to try. As a retired RN/NP, it takes more than a bully to give me indigestion!! Thanks to all of you for jumping in on this.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Look, Jackie, no need to "struggle" with your PM. You & the rest of the MUST direct the PM to, for example, for state statutes about what agenda items belong in exec. session and what do NOT. Can you please provide more examples of iagend items the PM wants in ES that are not appropriate?

But, a cozy one-on-one conversation with a board member, imo, has problems. first, in my HOA there always is at least one director who's ignorant about everything. For an owner to have a discussion with an owner would lead to misinformation. And THEN, the owner says to a neighbor well, "the Board" said, when the "director" is meant. It's even worse when he owner says, "well the president assured me that xx, yy, x zz." In part the problem is that the owner thinks the prez has special authority or special unique knowledge. And that the prez is "the boss." And there have been a few presidents here who were fairly ignorant.

For contact, others here have suggested one email addy for "the Board," which make e sense in HOAs where a PM does' handle day-today matters.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Is the property manager part of a management company? If so, it's time to contact his or her supervisor. If the supervisor can't persuade the property manager to behave, ask to be reassigned to another one. If that doesn't work out, you may need to find another company.

Before you take that step, it may help to sit down with the manager and superman get everything out in the operating. It's OK to have an executive session about ghux be zhsd all the board members need yo hear this and participate. This may be a personality issue between you and tye manager, as you said, or there may been other incidents with other board members you aren't aware of.

From here, you can all work together on a performance improvement plan and give it six months to see if it helps. By the way some of this clashing may be YOUR doing, so I hope you're willing to listen and acknowledge that, then work to improve relations on your end.

Back to the contact issue - Cathy bought up a great point about individual emails accounts being subject to discovery if there's legal action against the association. Before our community set up one email for the entire board, everyone had accounts that were used only for board business, so if there was an issue it would be easier to wade through that instead of your personal account. That's another reason why I recommend one account for the board,

And skip phone number disclosure- it won't kill homeowners to use email or call the property manager (that's part of why you have one). Or they can come to a board meeting to speak their minds. You could even have a sheet where people can write questions or maintenance requests for the property manager for follow up after the meeting.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Good responses, Shelia! I like it when someone makes typos like I do!

Jackie, you & the he rest of the Board may meet with the PM with specific matters to discuss in executive session. The PM IS personnel.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Trying not to beat this to the ground...and respectully answering some of your concerns, here is my take: Communication at any level is challenging, including Our PM/PMC, my BOD colleagues, neighbors,etc. but life must go on. It's a choice we each make...and closely resembles raising teenagers.
I had asked (EM) for these items to be in open session agenda.
COMMITTEE ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES- ARC and Landscape. We are a new Board and with many new HOs.
ELECTION TRANSPARENCY: Annual session is May; Ballots weren't mailed until end of August. PM said Pres/VP positions were 2 year terms but Docs are clear about 1 year/annual elections.
DIRECTOR/MEMBER COMMUNICATION- as detailed with Original topic, the pushback was potential board liability. Again, each Board member can decided for themselves. Why be on a Board of anything, if you prefer no connection with members? This is a volunteer position. BTW, PMC has recently offered an orientation (nice) and scheduled as next election is mailed end of month. Remember our recent election was delayed for unknown reasons 4 months.
CCRs UPDATE DISCUSSION- possibly submitted by another BOD.
BAD DEBT- yes, could be Exec session if it was current. I totally get PRIVACY! Reviewing 171 pages of Stuff, including Financials sent by PMC, I noticed a recurrent unpaid debt $7700.
I knew the current owner wasn't the debtor;they bought this home in 2017. I asked PM (several times) if lien was filed/recorded? Why no collection @ time of sale? Recently PM responded
"short sale. We had no idea. Lien was placed in 2012, not PMC until 2016." "OK, but what transpired with collections in 2016-2017, until sale occurred? $7700. is a chunk of $$$ for
most associations to lose. The original owner moved out of the area and I feel this could be discussed in open session without any privacy issues being violated. Having to scratch and claw to get some simple basic answers is concerning. Most importantly is understanding the flow, and dissolving any misconduct thoughts.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/07/2023 11:45 AM
Good responses, Shelia! I like it when someone makes typos like I do!

Ha! I'm just happy people can interpret what I'm trying to say! This tablet can be really cranky at times.....

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

With regards to the subject line of this thread, I consider my personal contact information (personal phone number, personal e-mail, address) to be confidential information that is not subject to release to owners. Of course, our property manager can do how she wants, but I don't want people using eggs to knock on my door late at night because of some beef they have with the HOA.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 01/07/2023 1:39 PM
With regards to the subject line of this thread, I consider my personal contact information (personal phone number, personal e-mail, address) to be confidential information that is not subject to release to owners. Of course, our property manager can do how she wants, but I don't want people using eggs to knock on my door late at night because of some beef they have with the HOA.

What email address or phone number do you have on file to conduct association business. That is not confidential

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Agree with you about any violence, verbal or physical. Now if it was Chocolate eggs...hmmmm?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 01/07/2023 1:50 PM

What email address or phone number do you have on file to conduct association business. That is not confidential

I have an HOA e-mail account that is setup and paid for by the HOA, at $35/year. This is fine for any homeowner to use. My personal account (can't list the company name but common free mail account) is not for official HOA use.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Michael, thanks for another great option to connect with our HOA members. I love this site!

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

We do not hide who is on our BOD. We do not publish their Email nor phone numbers though many owners do have them of some BOD Members. We do have an Email address that when one sends an Email to it, the Email is automatically distributed to all BOD Members. We encourage people to communicate with the BOD in this manner.

JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218

Posted:

Let me tell you from experience. 10 years ago, we used to use our personal emails to do HOA business. Until an unhappy design review committee member. She put out a media release with all of our board's personal email addresses. I was president at the time. We relieved her of her committee position and we went with generic board email addresses (that get handed over to new board members as they assume their board position). We still insist homeowners contact the MC and not email board members directly. Colorado law requires us to inform homeowners of the HOA board contact information if asked.

As for meetings, our PM is also insisting Zoom meetings in lieu of actual meeting of the HOA. She "claims" that everyone wants/prefers Zoom to meeting in person. I have a feeling she is pushing for Zoom meetings because she lives quite a distance from our neighborhood and just doesn't want to travel. The board just nods their head and agree to Zoom meetings. Pre-covid, we would have our meetings at local businesses and occasionally at free meeting spaces like the library or the local fire department's conference room. I prefer in person meetings.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Jerry brings up a question for Jackie: Does your PM attend meetings per your contact with her MC? Does she write meeting minutes? I agree that none of the matters the PM wants in executive session legally along there in CA. Simply director here to requite th agenda and place those matters on the regular open meeting agenda.

For items permitted in executive session in Ca, vist Davis-stirling.com, Index, executive session.

The big very old bad debt item: Why should it be an agenda item at all?

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Michael, John, Jerry, Kerry. I love this sharing of info and experiences. THANKS! I quickly need an update (details) on how your member EM worked: positives and negatives also.
Can members read prior members emails? Can/does BOD respond? Is PM in the loop? Cost? who is your vendor/provider of this EM address?

Kerry, yes PM attends bimonthly via Zoom, audio only. The other 2 BOD zoom with audio only also. Yes, I asked for my items to be in open session agenda, not Exec report. We received the printed Report/Agenda stuff via on-line local and bulletine board, + Portal 4 days to the minute prior our next meeting, tomorrow @ 5pm. I had not posted the old $7700. debt for
an agenda item; I had asked her and BOD (2-one past president) the how,why it remained on our books? Eventually learned SHORT SALE 2017, Lien 2012..., home sold 2017,but PMC hired in 2016. I expected a simply answer why no money came to our HOA? yes, we are low on the totum with bank, taxes...but I thought we needed to sign off of lien? Did we? PM placed this in Exec report. The Short sale owner moved somewhere, not here!

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

In the event of a foreclosure or short sale, 99.99% of the proceeds will go to the first mortgage only. HOAs will lose even if there is a recorded lien.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Max, THANKS- All my googling and research leaned that way...but with a five year lien (2012-2017) prior the Short Sale(2017) shouldn't some collection policy been been enacted? Does the PMC have to sign off before a short sale goes through? I understand you can't squeeze blood from a turnip...but this inquiry started as a simple question to understand why an uncollected debt remained on our books. PM has gone into orbit, giving non-answers vs one word answers. There was no blaming...just trying learn why? WHOA!

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

I also meant HOA Board sign off...not PMC, but with attorney guidance.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Maybe I don't understand Jackie's question: "Does the PMC have to sign off before a short sale goes through?" Why would the PMC have the authority to "sign off on any sale of an HOA unit? Why would the MC have such records? It's also possible that too much time has passed to"require" an answer.

Honestly, Jackie, imho, you have plenty of other issues with your PM, & maybe her boss, than trying to learn about something this old.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Kerry, my understanding from Davis-Stirling (CA) is that even with a Short sale, and the low priority of HOA lien, HOA needs to sign off ...and most do, to get rid of the deadbeat and gain a new HO paying dues. Makes sense...but( me,new Board) trying to understand Financials saw this $7700 as unpaid and sitting in our books. I asked PM a few questions not suspecting the tsuami I have incountered. She said they/PMC had no clue of a short sale until it was done/over. With an HOA lien of 5 years against the property, I find it strange they would be clueless; they were 2 years our PM when short sale occurred. Now that I have questioned this, she put it in Exec to erase it. I want to know the correct flow of this? Did we sign off of lien for Short sale to progress? Easy!

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackieB4 on 01/08/2023 11:12 AM
Michael, John, Jerry, Kerry. I love this sharing of info and experiences. THANKS! I quickly need an update (details) on how your member EM worked: positives and negatives also.
Can members read prior members emails? Can/does BOD respond? Is PM in the loop? Cost? who is your vendor/provider of this EM address?

Kerry, yes PM attends bimonthly via Zoom, audio only. The other 2 BOD zoom with audio only also. Yes, I asked for my items to be in open session agenda, not Exec report. We received the printed Report/Agenda stuff via on-line local and bulletine board, + Portal 4 days to the minute prior our next meeting, tomorrow @ 5pm. I had not posted the old $7700. debt for
an agenda item; I had asked her and BOD (2-one past president) the how,why it remained on our books? Eventually learned SHORT SALE 2017, Lien 2012..., home sold 2017,but PMC hired in 2016. I expected a simply answer why no money came to our HOA? yes, we are low on the totum with bank, taxes...but I thought we needed to sign off of lien? Did we? PM placed this in Exec report. The Short sale owner moved somewhere, not here!

With regards to why it's on the books:

Your books are likely kept in actuals, which means you book the revenue whether or not it's actually received. When debt goes bad, it's has to be written off as bad debt. That $7700 will need to be written off in order for it to go off of the books.

At least that is my understanding. Accounting is one of the few things that I don't have much knowledge in and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Max or someone might correct my errors which certainly there are some.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Michael...yes, long time bad debt. So why would it sit there for 5 years without being cleared? Same PMC, 4 different PM managers, 3 different HOA boards over past 5 years? I have no legal nor accounting background either. Simply trying to understand/educate myself. It's listed in Executive (tomorrow 5pm) to be cleared.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackieB4 on 01/08/2023 4:34 PM
Michael...yes, long time bad debt. So why would it sit there for 5 years without being cleared? Same PMC, 4 different PM managers, 3 different HOA boards over past 5 years? I have no legal nor accounting background either. Simply trying to understand/educate myself. It's listed in Executive (tomorrow 5pm) to be cleared.

I can't say for our Board, but possible reasons:

1. (Any particular set of) Board members don't want to take responsibility for bad debt

2. (Any particular set of) Board members do not realize debt is uncollectable

3. (Any particular set of) Board members are too lazy to pass the motion and direct the PM to remove the debt

4. Who knows!

My personal favorite reason is #3 above.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

LOL- if I ever get an answer, I will post here. My suspicion is PM and prior Boards never gave a glance to Financials. I often attended meetings, pre and post Covid and the Board seemed to be reading the Agenda material for the first time "during open session." Why not use the 4 days pre-meeting to familiarize yourself? Strange reasons why people volunteer for HOA Boards?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/08/2023 3:43 PM
Why would the PMC have the authority to "sign off on any sale of an HOA unit? Why would the MC have such records?

Who, in your opinion, would have such records? Your management company, as a registered agent, listed through the Secretary of State's office would be the point person for filing records.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackieB4 on 01/08/2023 12:57 PM
Max, THANKS- All my googling and research leaned that way...but with a five year lien (2012-2017) prior the Short Sale(2017) shouldn't some collection policy been been enacted? Does the PMC have to sign off before a short sale goes through? I understand you can't squeeze blood from a turnip...but this inquiry started as a simple question to understand why an uncollected debt remained on our books. PM has gone into orbit, giving non-answers vs one word answers. There was no blaming...just trying learn why? WHOA!

Neither the PMC nor the Association (Board) has the authority to sign off on a short sale or foreclosure. You write the debt off on the books but can send it to a collection agency and see what you can get.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Max, your info is ALWAYS appreciated. Did I erroneously understand D/S when they said HOA lien must be signed off before Short sale is final? As I mentioned, most do sign off to get rid of deadbeat and get new owner paying the monthly fee. It was purchased immediately for $750,000 im 2017.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackieB4 on 01/08/2023 8:05 PM
Max, your info is ALWAYS appreciated. Did I erroneously understand D/S when they said HOA lien must be signed off before Short sale is final? As I mentioned, most do sign off to get rid of deadbeat and get new owner paying the monthly fee. It was purchased immediately for $750,000 im 2017.

That was an attorney's opinion, not the Davis-Stirling Act of the California Civil Code

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

My understanding is what your wrote: neither the PM or HOA "signs off." Of course the PM keeps the records in my HOA..

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

My understanding is what you wrote, Max: neither the PM or HOA "signs off." Of course the PM keeps the records in my HOA..

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

For a short sale, all lien holders have to agree to a reduced amount of lien that they would get paid if the short sale goes through.

A foreclosure does not require that.

Our HOA had an opportunity to agree to being paid $700 for a $7000 lien. We declined and the short sale didn't go through. Eventually the house was sold and we got paid the full $7000 amount.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Jackie

A BOD does not have to approve a sale. If there is a lien and a short sale, then the BOD must approve accepting a lower amount that what the lien is for. Otherwise what the BOD is provide an Estoppel letter saying there are no back dues owed, no fines outstanding, no outstanding violations, etc. If there are, this does not stop a sale but it raises red flags to a buyer and many lenders will not approve a loan. A cash buyer could say the hell with the issues, I am closing on this house. Then they will have to deal with the BOD.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 01/09/2023 10:59 AM
Jackie

A BOD does not have to approve a sale. If there is a lien and a short sale, then the BOD must approve accepting a lower amount that what the lien is for. Otherwise what the BOD is provide an Estoppel letter saying there are no back dues owed, no fines outstanding, no outstanding violations, etc. If there are, this does not stop a sale but it raises red flags to a buyer and many lenders will not approve a loan. A cash buyer could say the hell with the issues, I am closing on this house. Then they will have to deal with the BOD.

I have only been involved in one short sale in 2007-2008 and the second lien holder, who was in for $250K, wouldn't approve, so the others down the line weren't notified.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Michael, John, Max...Thanks again for sharing with this exhausting subject: lien vs Short sale. I don't think in CA the unpaid debt gets forwarded to new owner. Unsure if the new owner is even aware of short sale? Yes, Bank mortgage and unpaid taxes get first dibs. This adventure began as a simple review of the 171 pages sent to each new Board Director. A 5 year
$7700. unpaid debt caught my eye, especially since I knew this home had sold in 2017. I asked PM was this debt remained on the books? " Short sale of which we were clueless." Again, didn't make sense ... and I thought (erroneously) D/S said all liens need to be signed off." So if Board had signed off why did it remain on our books for another 5 years? Curiosity killed the cat...and after our 5pm exec meeting tonight I plan to bury any remains. Life is too short.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Jackie

It is always a question of how long do you carry a debt owed before it gets written off. That is typically a question/decision for your financial person(s).

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

John, do you see any advantage for it to sit on the books until now? My concerns apparently prompted PM to put it on EXEC topics for tonight "to close it out." Again, why not in Open Session??

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackieB4 on 01/09/2023 2:42 PM
John, do you see any advantage for it to sit on the books until now? My concerns apparently prompted PM to put it on EXEC topics for tonight "to close it out." Again, why not in Open Session??

The advantage for leaving it on the books is that when you present your finances to your homeowners, there is no money written off for "bad debt" that year.

You gotta start thinking like a politician here.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 01/09/2023 5:29 PM

Wrong

The property has been sold and changed hands. The debt is NO longer recoverable, write it off. Don't think like a politician.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Hope things are going well for you this evening, Jackie.

It really is time to move on to your current issues and perhaps to larger matters?

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

LOL, time to wrap this up. Meeting went fairly well. PM + 2 Directors on Ring Central, audio only. Local location @ my home, with 5 HOs in attendance.
The 5 Exec topics were actually Open Meeting criteria but my goal was to get these talks done and over with. This Report/Agenda struggle has been ongoing since we became Directors in Nov. Specifically the $7700. Short sale/Lien issue was diverted by PM to our collection policies and the FAIR DEBT something ??? and how it's "too complicated to explain." OK...DONE! I've closed this chapter. I said I would share the results. And John, your answer made me LOL. Thanks to each of you assisting me with this journey. I learned alot!

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

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