which state has the best HOA laws? does it take a smoking gun to get anything changed?

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

which state has the best HOA laws? It is certainly not North Carolina IMHO. PM do not need any licensing, even after several instances of HOA boards having funds embezzled by the PM. there is no open meeting law, if an HOA board refuses to follow the PCA act a homeowner basically has to sue, there is no govt agency that will help force the HOA to comply. courts recently ruled people can have chickens, goats, etc if they are considered pets, etc. seems like every week I read a story that makes the HOA legal process look like a joke.

From an NC HOA legal book:

In 2012, the (NC HOA )Committee continued its work and issued its Final Report to the 2012 Session
of the 2011 General Assembly. The Committee concluded that the Planned Community Act and the
Condominium Act do not offer sufficient protection to owners of property in planned communities
and condominiums, and that still more statutory revisions are necessary in order to “achieve a
better balance of the interests of property owners in these communities and the associations that
govern them.”

Nothing substantive has occurred since IMHO. Are most states like this? A general apathy to improving HOA governance?

vis ta vie

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

I am not sure how you define best. Best as in most protective of homeowners, or best as in stronger laws for the associations?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

In general, my opinion is that city governments, and thus the legislatures at the state level who represent city governments, absolutely love HOAs. Thus, state laws will always be protective of HOAs.

Why?

Well, HOAs handle a lot of situations that otherwise would rise to the city government level. Barking dog complains. Yard maintenance complaints. Neighbor-Neighbor complaints. HOAs also own and maintain neighborhood parks, thus, cities no longer need to own and maintain neighborhood parks. Rather they can focus park budget more on regional and higher level parks.

Board volunteers do the coordination, planning, and oversight of the maintenance involved at no charge to anyone.

Thus, cities are highly dependent on HOAs and without them they would have to dramatically increase taxes....thus, HOAs help them keep taxes lower.

Thusly, cities and states have enacted laws that are protective of HOAs.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/22/2022 10:10 PM
I am not sure how you define best. Best as in most protective of homeowners, or best as in stronger laws for the associations?

Most protective homeowners

vis ta vie

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

Our state has some very good HOA laws but unless the local Board of Directors do their job well, there is not any state agency that enforces any of the laws.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 12/23/2022 4:58 AM
Our state has some very good HOA laws but unless the local Board of Directors do their job well, there is not any state agency that enforces any of the laws.

seems to be a common issue, Is there any state that has an agency that will enforce hoa laws? especially ones like requiring HOA board to give financial records, etc.

vis ta vie

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/23/2022 5:09 AM

Is there any state that has an agency that will enforce hoa laws? especially ones like requiring HOA board to give financial records, etc.

Many.

Look for an ombudsmans or other agencies.

Here is one example: https://www.dpor.virginia.gov/CIC-Ombudsman

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/23/2022 5:11 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/23/2022 5:09 AM

Is there any state that has an agency that will enforce hoa laws? especially ones like requiring HOA board to give financial records, etc.

Many.

Look for an ombudsmans or other agencies.

Here is one example: https://www.dpor.virginia.gov/CIC-Ombudsman

thank you, I've read a few posts that imply the ombudsman are a joke and dont' acdtually do anything when there is an issue. Is your experience different?

vis ta vie

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

The VA ombudsman is limited to violations of statute not the governing documents.
They publish their decisions (called determinations), so you can decide for yourself (there is a link on the page I referenced earlier).

One thing to keep in mind, and is often seen on this site, is that many who make complaints don't fully understand their own documents or applicable statutes. Sometimes, it's just the owners perception vs fact that can lead to decisions to go against members.

I believe that the VA ombudsman is a good one. The determinations are well written and explain their decision well.

I know that when I had a small issue of my VA board not wanting to let me review financials that once I started the complaint process to the ombudsman, the board was very quick to share in order to stop the complaint.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/23/2022 5:26 AM
The VA ombudsman is limited to violations of statute not the governing documents.
They publish their decisions (called determinations), so you can decide for yourself (there is a link on the page I referenced earlier).

One thing to keep in mind, and is often seen on this site, is that many who make complaints don't fully understand their own documents or applicable statutes. Sometimes, it's just the owners perception vs fact that can lead to decisions to go against members.

I believe that the VA ombudsman is a good one. The determinations are well written and explain their decision well.

I know that when I had a small issue of my VA board not wanting to let me review financials that once I started the complaint process to the ombudsman, the board was very quick to share in order to stop the complaint.

every state needs this IMHO. quick google search shows only a minority of states have it though.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

My opinion... A HOA doesn't need any more laws except for the one's they have. The reason we have the additional state/city/federal laws are because of those "karens" who can't understand their HOA rules in the first place. Honestly, read your HOA documents. If you don't like them, they can be changed! It's a "fluid" document that is modified by majority vote or interaction. Once you get the "Apathetic". in a rage, you then get the State laws changed.

I am more concerned about the laws that pertain to mortgage/ownership laws than how to make my house attractive to potential buyers. Which is what a HOA is. A sales tool to make you and your neighbors houses sellable. State and other laws are for making sure you are protected when you buy such a property/home.

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/23/2022 6:52 AM
My opinion... A HOA doesn't need any more laws except for the one's they have. The reason we have the additional state/city/federal laws are because of those "karens" who can't understand their HOA rules in the first place. Honestly, read your HOA documents. If you don't like them, they can be changed! It's a "fluid" document that is modified by majority vote or interaction. Once you get the "Apathetic". in a rage, you then get the State laws changed.

I am more concerned about the laws that pertain to mortgage/ownership laws than how to make my house attractive to potential buyers. Which is what a HOA is. A sales tool to make you and your neighbors houses sellable. State and other laws are for making sure you are protected when you buy such a property/home.

so how did you come to this overgeneralized solution? was it by reading hundreds of hoa governing docs from many different states?
also curious how would you go about changing bylaws and ccrs that have a 90% approval needed? At what percentage does a document turn from fluid to hard as metal then? would it be 99%?

the term karen refers to members of an HOA board who are overbearing and power control freaks; it does not apply to ignorant homeowners tryig to better thier HOA. how you took a term meant to define people like yourself and flipped it pretty says it all.

vis ta vie

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

SC laws/regulations favor owners/management over employees. Thus they favor the BOD over the owners.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Ultimately, associations really are small potatoes in our society.

Why?

Ultimately, HOA dues for single family homes is pretty small. There is not a lot of money at stake. Our budget, for example, is $250,000 a year which is tiny compared to cities, county, and state budgets. We have a "big stick" when it comes to paying dues. Other than that, most compliance with what the HOA requests is voluntary. We send out lots of warnings to homeowners, and most comply. We can eventually send out a fine, which homeowners rarely pay. If we get enough fines, we can send them to legal collections but we cannot initate foreclosure proceedings or anything like that. So really, we do a lot of coaxing of people to follow rules. Most eventually do.

The expenditures that we make are for our parks and community spaces. We do the best we can. That's about it.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/23/2022 9:12 AM
Ultimately, associations really are small potatoes in our society.

Why?

Ultimately, HOA dues for single family homes is pretty small. There is not a lot of money at stake. Our budget, for example, is $250,000 a year which is tiny compared to cities, county, and state budgets. We have a "big stick" when it comes to paying dues. Other than that, most compliance with what the HOA requests is voluntary. We send out lots of warnings to homeowners, and most comply. We can eventually send out a fine, which homeowners rarely pay. If we get enough fines, we can send them to legal collections but we cannot initate foreclosure proceedings or anything like that. So really, we do a lot of coaxing of people to follow rules. Most eventually do.

The expenditures that we make are for our parks and community spaces. We do the best we can. That's about it.

Unfortunately not all HOA's are even close to how yours is. To grossly extrapolate your personal experience to all other 50 states does no one any good.

Perhaps I should contact https://www.caionline.org
and ask for a list of HOA bills that have been passed say in the last 10 years and email them to my congressman and aks them why other states are improving their HOA laws while NC has done next to nothing in the last decade.

vis ta vie

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/23/2022 9:33 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/23/2022 9:12 AM
Ultimately, associations really are small potatoes in our society.

Why?

Ultimately, HOA dues for single family homes is pretty small. There is not a lot of money at stake. Our budget, for example, is $250,000 a year which is tiny compared to cities, county, and state budgets. We have a "big stick" when it comes to paying dues. Other than that, most compliance with what the HOA requests is voluntary. We send out lots of warnings to homeowners, and most comply. We can eventually send out a fine, which homeowners rarely pay. If we get enough fines, we can send them to legal collections but we cannot initate foreclosure proceedings or anything like that. So really, we do a lot of coaxing of people to follow rules. Most eventually do.

The expenditures that we make are for our parks and community spaces. We do the best we can. That's about it.

Unfortunately not all HOA's are even close to how yours is. To grossly extrapolate your personal experience to all other 50 states does no one any good.

Perhaps I should contact https://www.caionline.org
and ask for a list of HOA bills that have been passed say in the last 10 years and email them to my congressman and aks them why other states are improving their HOA laws while NC has done next to nothing in the last decade.

The CAI advocates for laws that support HOAs rather than the other way around.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/23/2022 9:40 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/23/2022 9:33 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/23/2022 9:12 AM
Ultimately, associations really are small potatoes in our society.

Why?

Ultimately, HOA dues for single family homes is pretty small. There is not a lot of money at stake. Our budget, for example, is $250,000 a year which is tiny compared to cities, county, and state budgets. We have a "big stick" when it comes to paying dues. Other than that, most compliance with what the HOA requests is voluntary. We send out lots of warnings to homeowners, and most comply. We can eventually send out a fine, which homeowners rarely pay. If we get enough fines, we can send them to legal collections but we cannot initate foreclosure proceedings or anything like that. So really, we do a lot of coaxing of people to follow rules. Most eventually do.

The expenditures that we make are for our parks and community spaces. We do the best we can. That's about it.

Unfortunately not all HOA's are even close to how yours is. To grossly extrapolate your personal experience to all other 50 states does no one any good.

Perhaps I should contact https://www.caionline.org
and ask for a list of HOA bills that have been passed say in the last 10 years and email them to my congressman and aks them why other states are improving their HOA laws while NC has done next to nothing in the last decade.

The CAI advocates for laws that support HOAs rather than the other way around.

then why did they support the recent Maryland bill that allows for naturalized front lawns? Shouldnt' have have supported the HOA that blew $100,000 over the "illegal" flower garden?

vis ta vie

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Several years back a few SC State Senators tried to get a set of rules/regulations passed controlling non-high rise HOA's. It really came about from first time HOA buyers (mainly in the Myrtle Beach area) that felt they were not given all the appropriate information concerning their association especially dues increases and use restrictions. What do you mean no Pink Flamingo statues in my yard? Most were quite naïve about the whole process. There were such controls for high rise condo associations (SC Horizontal Property Act) but not for other HOA's.

I personally lobbied my State Senator against it as I felt it tied a BOD's hands somewhat. The CAI also lobbied against it. Well after several go arounds, a watered down version was finally passed. SECTION 27-30-110, South Carolina Homeowners Association Act. One I personally have no objections to.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

First, to answer a couple of people.

One, Melissa, it's not ok to just read your HOA governing documents as state statutes may have changed and no one knows they have, especially self-managed HOA. HOAs are not sales tools any longer, that ship has long ago. In order to get homes built nowadays, municipalities require them to be herded into an association. I don't live in an HOA any longer and have a park down the street that I support with my local taxes. On the other hand, a new development that went about 5 years ago also has a park, private, and owners in the association pay dues to maintain their park while also paying taxes to help maintain my public park. That policy holds true for other items also.

A number of states have separate statutes for condos and HOAs, but can't figure out why? A board meeting in a condo association is no different than one in an HOA. We have Horizontal Acts, are there also Vertical ones also?

In California, we probably have the most laws and I feel have the best for a number of reasons. Having served two years on a Legislative Action Committee with CAI, I got to see how HOA laws are brought before the State Legislators. Make no mistake, the process is political. The GOP wants less regulation and the Dems want more. Look at the states who have the most and least laws in regard to HOAs. California has two powerful groups going after one another. One favors the HOA, management, and attorneys, and the other tries to look out for homeowners. How legislation starts out and how it finishes is night and day. After a lawyer writes the legalese even the legislator who introduced the bill has no item what it now means.

We have our mix of good laws and well, just bonehead laws. We have laws because boards and/or management couldn't follow the original laws. Then laws are written by lawyers that only lawyers can interpret and we all know how well that works out. The biggest problem is we allow associations to go after homeowners with association money and a homeowner has to use their money to defend themselves against false charges. The fun really begins if it goes to court as judges are as knowledgeable as someone who was just elected to the board after having just moved into their first HOA.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/23/2022 10:19 AM
First, to answer a couple of people.

One, Melissa, it's not ok to just read your HOA governing documents as state statutes may have changed and no one knows they have, especially self-managed HOA. HOAs are not sales tools any longer, that ship has long ago. In order to get homes built nowadays, municipalities require them to be herded into an association. I don't live in an HOA any longer and have a park down the street that I support with my local taxes. On the other hand, a new development that went about 5 years ago also has a park, private, and owners in the association pay dues to maintain their park while also paying taxes to help maintain my public park. That policy holds true for other items also.

A number of states have separate statutes for condos and HOAs, but can't figure out why? A board meeting in a condo association is no different than one in an HOA. We have Horizontal Acts, are there also Vertical ones also?

In California, we probably have the most laws and I feel have the best for a number of reasons. Having served two years on a Legislative Action Committee with CAI, I got to see how HOA laws are brought before the State Legislators. Make no mistake, the process is political. The GOP wants less regulation and the Dems want more. Look at the states who have the most and least laws in regard to HOAs. California has two powerful groups going after one another. One favors the HOA, management, and attorneys, and the other tries to look out for homeowners. How legislation starts out and how it finishes is night and day. After a lawyer writes the legalese even the legislator who introduced the bill has no item what it now means.

We have our mix of good laws and well, just bonehead laws. We have laws because boards and/or management couldn't follow the original laws. Then laws are written by lawyers that only lawyers can interpret and we all know how well that works out. The biggest problem is we allow associations to go after homeowners with association money and a homeowner has to use their money to defend themselves against false charges. The fun really begins if it goes to court as judges are as knowledgeable as someone who was just elected to the board after having just moved into their first HOA.

so does a normal citizen have any chance of recommending a bill from say MD or AZ be inacted in North Carolina? Or do you pretty much have to go through special interest groups to be heard? From what I have read it does seem like California has the most protective HOA laws. I do see other states making small improvements here and there as well.

vis ta vie

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Wendy

Does the average citizen have any say in recommending a bill within their state? The answer is yes, but it may be pure luck or being in the right place at the right time.

In California, we have the Davis-Stirling Act, which is a section within the California Civil Code. Neither Gray Davis nor Larry Stirling has anything to do with writing the act. It was a law professor, Katharine Rosenberry, who also happened to be president of a large HOA that wrote the act. She also worked on its rewrite in 2014.

Amendments have kind of been equal between the two lobbying groups, one for me and one for you. California has almost 60,000 HOAs, and almost half are self-managed, so many of those HOAs are following rules from the stone age.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 12/23/2022 4:58 AM
Our state has some very good HOA laws but unless the local Board of Directors do their job well, there is not any state agency that enforces any of the laws.

IMO this is the biggest problem. Nobody polices the Association, so boards seem to routinely violate their own governing documents and state laws that govern HOAs with no repercussions. Homeowners have no recourse other than lowering up, which can be too expensive for most.

The advice of “get in the board” is useless to those whose board won’t hold a fair election.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

From the Department of "Be Careful What You Ask For":

A number of years ago, the legislators in my state responded to cries of woe from homeowners in HOAs/COAs by drafting a bill that would penalize rogue/incompetent board members by making them personally liable for torts. The bill died in committee after numerous people pointed out that this would indeed get rid of bad board members, and the good ones as well, since nobody in their right mind would volunteer for the job.

The real problem is expecting competent, professional service out of a very small minority of volunteer homeowners - many of whom don't want the job to begin with and whose only qualification is that they could scrape together a down payment on a home - while the very large majority of homeowners who are no more knowledgeable or competent sit around bytching and making demands. The community association concept in flawed by definition, and things like an ombudsman or formalized dispute resolution is lipstick on a pig. No amount of lawmaking or legal legerdemain will fix this, because you can't fix a problem until you correctly define what the problem is.

JohnC73 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 344

Posted:

I don't know about all of Arizona's HOA laws, but love that they don't allow proxy voting.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC73 on 12/24/2022 5:40 AM
I don't know about all of Arizona's HOA laws, but love that they don't allow proxy voting.

Without proxies it is near impossible to bring change. Yes they are often used to keep an existing BOD in place, but without them it would be near impossible to throw out an existing BOD Member(s).

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2022 5:49 AM

Posted By JohnC73 on 12/24/2022 5:40 AM
I don't know about all of Arizona's HOA laws, but love that they don't allow proxy voting.

Without proxies it is near impossible to bring change. Yes they are often used to keep an existing BOD in place, but without them it would be near impossible to throw out an existing BOD Member(s).

Solve the issue, get rid of quorum.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/24/2022 5:16 AM
From the Department of "Be Careful What You Ask For":

A number of years ago, the legislators in my state responded to cries of woe from homeowners in HOAs/COAs by drafting a bill that would penalize rogue/incompetent board members by making them personally liable for torts. The bill died in committee after numerous people pointed out that this would indeed get rid of bad board members, and the good ones as well, since nobody in their right mind would volunteer for the job.

The real problem is expecting competent, professional service out of a very small minority of volunteer homeowners - many of whom don't want the job to begin with and whose only qualification is that they could scrape together a down payment on a home - while the very large majority of homeowners who are no more knowledgeable or competent sit around bytching and making demands. The community association concept in flawed by definition, and things like an ombudsman or formalized dispute resolution is lipstick on a pig. No amount of lawmaking or legal legerdemain will fix this, because you can't fix a problem until you correctly define what the problem is.

so what's the problem? I certainly know what it is, but this post seems to be rhetorical, rather than assume I'll just be upfront and ask.

vis ta vie

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/24/2022 6:00 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2022 5:49 AM

Posted By JohnC73 on 12/24/2022 5:40 AM
I don't know about all of Arizona's HOA laws, but love that they don't allow proxy voting.

Without proxies it is near impossible to bring change. Yes they are often used to keep an existing BOD in place, but without them it would be near impossible to throw out an existing BOD Member(s).

Solve the issue, get rid of quorum.

Quorum is one issue. Ours happens to be 20%. I know the argument that quorums are not used for general elections. Let those that vote decide. An HOA is different in that people are all in "a business" together. Changes can effect all and can be felt immediately. In an association/state with little to no public announcement of a meeting. no quorum helps a small group to control what is happening. I do think large quorums such as 50% hamper a BOD. We changed ours from 50% to 20%.

Gathering proxies for you to vote as you wish, or voted the way you favor, is a much different issue. I look at proxies as an absentee ballots especially useful in associations/states that do not clearly define ballot voting. Can proxies be confusing? Yes. Can they be have built in favoritism? Yes. Are they misused? Yes. Do not blame the messenger for the message applies to proxies.

JohnC73 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 344

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2022 8:25 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/24/2022 6:00 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2022 5:49 AM

Posted By JohnC73 on 12/24/2022 5:40 AM
I don't know about all of Arizona's HOA laws, but love that they don't allow proxy voting.

Without proxies it is near impossible to bring change. Yes they are often used to keep an existing BOD in place, but without them it would be near impossible to throw out an existing BOD Member(s).

Solve the issue, get rid of quorum.

Quorum is one issue. Ours happens to be 20%. I know the argument that quorums are not used for general elections. Let those that vote decide. An HOA is different in that people are all in "a business" together. Changes can effect all and can be felt immediately. In an association/state with little to no public announcement of a meeting. no quorum helps a small group to control what is happening. I do think large quorums such as 50% hamper a BOD. We changed ours from 50% to 20%.

Gathering proxies for you to vote as you wish, or voted the way you favor, is a much different issue. I look at proxies as an absentee ballots especially useful in associations/states that do not clearly define ballot voting. Can proxies be confusing? Yes. Can they be have built in favoritism? Yes. Are they misused? Yes. Do not blame the messenger for the message applies to proxies.

My only issue with Proxies is how our association in NH uses them. They only allow the "general" proxy and don't allow "directed" proxy. We have had this discussion on another thread. This past annual election we had 230 voters and 100 of them were "general" proxy.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

do you have link to that old thread on proxies. I admit I need to learn more about that.

vis ta vie

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/24/2022 7:15 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/24/2022 5:16 AM
From the Department of "Be Careful What You Ask For":

A number of years ago, the legislators in my state responded to cries of woe from homeowners in HOAs/COAs by drafting a bill that would penalize rogue/incompetent board members by making them personally liable for torts. The bill died in committee after numerous people pointed out that this would indeed get rid of bad board members, and the good ones as well, since nobody in their right mind would volunteer for the job.

The real problem is expecting competent, professional service out of a very small minority of volunteer homeowners - many of whom don't want the job to begin with and whose only qualification is that they could scrape together a down payment on a home - while the very large majority of homeowners who are no more knowledgeable or competent sit around bytching and making demands. The community association concept in flawed by definition, and things like an ombudsman or formalized dispute resolution is lipstick on a pig. No amount of lawmaking or legal legerdemain will fix this, because you can't fix a problem until you correctly define what the problem is.

so what's the problem? I certainly know what it is, but this post seems to be rhetorical, rather than assume I'll just be upfront and ask.

I think CathyA3 is saying the problem is putting volunteers, with these volunteers often not having the skills for the job, in charge.

What do you think the problem is?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/24/2022 9:38 AM

... snip ....

]I think CathyA3 is saying the problem is putting volunteers, with these volunteers often not having the skills for the job, in charge.

Exactly, and unfortunately the laws require this to be the case. Aside from receivership, homeowners can't vote to replace their boards with paid professionals who know what they're doing.

Many of the gripes people have about HOAs are a direct consequence of this, and changing other parts of the law won't do anything other than allow us to punish people after the fact. Often the punishing comes after a number of years and at great expense to everyone in the HOA, including newer buyers who weren't even around when the original "offense" took place. And the Volunteer Protection Act limits or sometimes completely eliminates a volunteer's risk of tort liability, which means the liability falls onto the entire HOA.

People who buy property in an HOA/COA become partners in a non-profit business, and I'm pretty sure that most buyers don't understand this or the implications of it. Many of them will not be particularly good at personal finance, let alone business finance, let alone knowing enough about applicable laws to keep themselves out of trouble. And this is the pool from which directors are chosen. Given how many new businesses fail within a few years of incorporation(*), nobody should be surprised that community associations sometimes don't work too well. I'm actually surprised that they work as well as they do.

(From Investopedia: data from the BLS shows that approximately 20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years.
Only 25% of new businesses survive 15 years or more.)

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

well if that is the case then add legislation requiring any HOA to be run by a professional management company that must be licensed and undergo training. or legislation to at least require director training which has to be paid so volunteers are compensated for thier time/education.

saying new laws wont' make a difference i think is not true.

seems like most of the HOA nightmare stories are a combination of bad directors who have too much money to hire lawyers with. Seems like lawyers enable the bad directors and to a lesser extent bad PM managers.

vis ta vie

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

From my point of view one of the problems with HOA governance is that you have personalities that are not qualified to serve on HOA boards. Some owners are egotistical know-it-alls that are not interested in seeing all sides of an issue. Unfortunately, these are the types of people who seem attracted to becoming volunteers. Then there are those people who just take up a seat and don't get very involved. Someone talked them in to filling a board vacancy and they don't do much. Lucky are those HOA's who have thoughtful, interested, and knowledgeable volunteers. I don't think that is all that common and why HOA's have a bad reputation. The loud, assertive board members take over.

Have you ever served on a committee and observed the dynamics of the group? It's an interesting phenomenon to observe. The dynamics of a group change when members changed. I was in a group of participants studying various educational topics for about 6 weeks. We were assigned group presentations and for the most part we were a fairly cohesive group. Then a new group of participants joined us and the whole dynamics of the group changed. The pecking order was disturbed. The entire group was not near as cohesive as my original group. I think interested board members need to understand some of the characteristics of group membership. That would certainly help. One also needs to do some self-assessment to make sure their mind is in the right place to make thoughtful, knowledgeable decisions for the HOA.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

One of the main problems I see is a BOD taking legal action as it does not personally cost them anything. Like let us fight this with other peoples money.

One change of BOD I was involved with centered around something just like this. The HOA was sued over an issue (refusal to allow something the Covenants said was OK. In particular, an out building) and the BOD's lawyer advised the BOD they were wrong and should not fight it. The BOD President was on the record as saying he and a few other BOD Members (who did not want out buildings) disagreed and wanted to change lawyers and find one that agreed with them. This, among a few other issues, was enough for one present BOD Member and two past BOD Members to initiate a move to rid the BOD of the President and his allies. It took us two election cycles, but we did it.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

are there any states that require or somehow encourage board members to get education. I know florida is one, but requiring Board members to read the HOA docs while a step in the right direction is pretty small.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I simply brought a copy to each meeting. Why can not someone do that? Why does it always have to be someone else? Bring a copy to the meetings. Simple as that

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Was your "copy" 70+ pages long, Melissa, like our CC&Rs? And what was it "a copy" of? Even our new Bylaws are 15 very dense pages. Our Rules & Regs about the same. Did you really have board members thumbing through all these documents during board meetings???

State legislation does help. In CA, and probably in AZ & FL the requirement for open board meetings the agendas of which are noticed for owners to read, helps keep secrecy reduced. Restrictions against boards taking action without a meeting, i.e., making decisions online (except in emergencies) also supports openness & transparency. Strict election meeting requirements and secret ballots and tabulations only by neutral owners or firms support honest elections.

Along with JohnC, though, it takes a group of well-organized owners, who're willing to educate themselves, to kick our abusive rogue boards. It can involve lots of work and campaigning, but little funds. And as in JohnC's case, and in one of ours, it take more than one election to "clean house." Still, during that interim year IF the board has a strong minority of honest, savvy, conscientious directors, those can keep the remaining bad apples in line. The MC (if there is one) can see change occurring and no longer aligns completely with the jerks. Ditto, the HOA general counsel, if the assn. has one. I have been involved in these changes.

JohnC73 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 344

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/24/2022 9:26 AM
do you have link to that old thread on proxies. I admit I need to learn more about that.

Wendy,

Here is a link the the proxy thread I started last summer,but there are many discussions on proxies here. I actually like proxies now after discovering there is such as thing as a "directed proxy". The only issues is that our association in NH doesn't allow directed proxy, even if the law says they are required to.

https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/328656/view/topic/Default.aspx

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Wow. Let me bring out the bouncey ball so you can follow it. We brought the documents to every meeting for reference material and for anyone who wanted to view a copy. How hard is this to understand? They did not need read at everymeeting that is dumb. If we needed to make a decision then we used them as the reference material. Now we did not hand down a decision immediately. We took time to research but the source materials were available.

No one needed to complain had no copy if we kept one available at the meeting...

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/25/2022 4:42 AM
Wow. Let me bring out the bouncey ball so you can follow it. We brought the documents to every meeting for reference material and for anyone who wanted to view a copy. How hard is this to understand? They did not need read at everymeeting that is dumb. If we needed to make a decision then we used them as the reference material. Now we did not hand down a decision immediately. We took time to research but the source materials were available.

No one needed to complain had no copy if we kept one available at the meeting...

What does bringing your docs have to do with which state has the best laws?

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LayaS on 12/24/2022 12:53 PM
From my point of view one of the problems with HOA governance is that you have personalities that are not qualified to serve on HOA boards. Some owners are egotistical know-it-alls that are not interested in seeing all sides of an issue. Unfortunately, these are the types of people who seem attracted to becoming volunteers. Then there are those people who just take up a seat and don't get very involved. Someone talked them in to filling a board vacancy and they don't do much. Lucky are those HOA's who have thoughtful, interested, and knowledgeable volunteers. I don't think that is all that common and why HOA's have a bad reputation. The loud, assertive board members take over.

Have you ever served on a committee and observed the dynamics of the group? It's an interesting phenomenon to observe. The dynamics of a group change when members changed. I was in a group of participants studying various educational topics for about 6 weeks. We were assigned group presentations and for the most part we were a fairly cohesive group. Then a new group of participants joined us and the whole dynamics of the group changed. The pecking order was disturbed. The entire group was not near as cohesive as my original group. I think interested board members need to understand some of the characteristics of group membership. That would certainly help. One also needs to do some self-assessment to make sure their mind is in the right place to make thoughtful, knowledgeable decisions for the HOA.

To be fair, my post did not mention anything about HOA state laws. My point was that no matter what HOA laws are in place, the make-up of a board has a big impact on the decisions that are made.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LayaS on 12/24/2022 12:53 PM
... snip ...

Have you ever served on a committee and observed the dynamics of the group? It's an interesting phenomenon to observe. The dynamics of a group change when members changed. I was in a group of participants studying various educational topics for about 6 weeks. We were assigned group presentations and for the most part we were a fairly cohesive group. Then a new group of participants joined us and the whole dynamics of the group changed. The pecking order was disturbed. The entire group was not near as cohesive as my original group. I think interested board members need to understand some of the characteristics of group membership. That would certainly help. One also needs to do some self-assessment to make sure their mind is in the right place to make thoughtful, knowledgeable decisions for the HOA.

Related to this, years ago an employer of mine once hired an expert in negotiating to teach his staff how to handle sticky situations (the expert handled hostage situations among other things and had some really fascinating stories to tell).

Anyway, the class was divided into groups of four and we had to reach a consensus solution to a difficult problem. Most groups didn't come up with the answer, including mine, but the interesting thing was that one member of my group actually had the right answer. However, he was a young guy with a quiet personality and wasn't willing to push back at the older and more dominant folks. The instructor was delighted since we illustrated a point he wanted to make. It was a valuable lesson.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Max it does not. Person was complaining it should be required by some kind of law. Guess what? Every single HOA is separate and most likely not connected to each other any shape or form. What works for one HOA does not work for another. It is not a one size fits all thing. Some laws formed in various states is by a squeaky wheel in one man's HOA. Which now is forced upon all HOA in that state.

My point is that you and your neighbors make it the HOA you all want it to be by the laws you have written. Going outside of that now forces everyone else to apply to that.

So do not like your HOA and how it runs? Do not think it follows the rules? Get on your board or participate till it does. Bring and read the rules if you like. Do not leave them out of sight. That way you know running by the rules or the rules need rewritten.

Guess what? There is no one else going to do the work for you. If you need 99% of votes of your neighbors you go and get those votes. I know because I did it myself. Stop complaining if you not willing to do the job as it is written and allowed.

Former HOA President

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/25/2022 5:27 AM

Related to this, years ago an employer of mine once hired an expert in negotiating to teach his staff how to handle sticky situations (the expert handled hostage situations among other things and had some really fascinating stories to tell).

Anyway, the class was divided into groups of four and we had to reach a consensus solution to a difficult problem. Most groups didn't come up with the answer, including mine, but the interesting thing was that one member of my group actually had the right answer. However, he was a young guy with a quiet personality and wasn't willing to push back at the older and more dominant folks. The instructor was delighted since we illustrated a point he wanted to make. It was a valuable lesson.

Shades of the Milgram experiment. Want to bet on how a person will behave? The bet that will win most of the time is that the person will go along with the herd.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So wanting HOA laws is like asking for more government in your life ...

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/25/2022 6:59 AM
Max it does not. Person was complaining it should be required by some kind of law. Guess what? Every single HOA is separate and most likely not connected to each other any shape or form. What works for one HOA does not work for another. It is not a one size fits all thing. Some laws formed in various states is by a squeaky wheel in one man's HOA. Which now is forced upon all HOA in that state.

My point is that you and your neighbors make it the HOA you all want it to be by the laws you have written. Going outside of that now forces everyone else to apply to that.

So do not like your HOA and how it runs? Do not think it follows the rules? Get on your board or participate till it does. Bring and read the rules if you like. Do not leave them out of sight. That way you know running by the rules or the rules need rewritten.

Guess what? There is no one else going to do the work for you. If you need 99% of votes of your neighbors you go and get those votes. I know because I did it myself. Stop complaining if you not willing to do the job as it is written and allowed.

Haven't lived in an HOA in seven years, but manage 72 of them. Because developers and attorneys use boilerplate governing documents, each HOA is not separate as it should be. I am not a big fan of regulations until they have to be.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/25/2022 10:21 AM
So wanting HOA laws is like asking for more government in your life ...

Living in an HOA is having more government in your life. It's another layer of control. Then people want laws to control what the HOA can and cannot do...

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/25/2022 10:21 AM
So wanting HOA laws is like asking for more government in your life ...

https://independentamericancommunities.com/2017/02/08/after-nearly-three-years-of-legal-battles-florida-condo-owners-find-replacing-their-board-a-daunting-task/

Even states like Florida that have a review board took 3 years and legal battles to get rid of a bad board, just reading above article makes my head hurt. . Wasn't it also Florida where a rogue board had embezzeld hundreds of thousands of $$$ and the community sued and also took years to get rid of the board this year?

by the way working with state goverenment laws to make new bills/laws is no different than working on an HOA level to change bylaws. both are valid. If you think it should be done a different way , make your own thread on how to overcome bylaws with 90% approval ratings. everyone knows no one has every in the history of HOA's ever ever overcome such incredibly high percentages. I'll be waiting to read the new thread with historical examples.

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Are you sure, Wendy, that your bylaws require 90% to amend? It seems you cite your "bylaws" a lot when the topics you discuss usually are normally in the declaration. Does your HOA have one of those combined Declaration/bylaws governing document?