Man sues HOA over flag

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

I don't know if this article from the Washington Post is behind a firewall or not. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/15/thin-blue-line-flag-lawsuit-father/

The gist is that he was flying a thin blue line flag and his HOA made him take it down.

Maybe it's because I'm on an HOA board, but I thought the HOA's rationale and behavior was pretty fair in this case.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

The Washington Post is behind a paywall. You may be able to find info about the suit on some of the aggregator sites (Yahoo, MSN, etc.). Google Tom DiSario HOA lawsuit.

DiSario lives in Ohio, but there are similar lawsuits on both sides in a number of states. They all boil down to the conflict between unfettered free speech and the rights of community associations to place reasonable limits on that speech. Since thin blue line flags can be viewed by some as a political statement that supports actions that target certain populations - especially in states that lean a particular way politically - and community associations are required to obey Fair Housing laws, you can see why associations are caught in the middle.

I expect these disputes will have to go up the line through various appeals courts and maybe to state and even the US Supreme Court.

I'm glad that I'm not the one who has to decide this.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I agree it was fair. It's fairly established now that flying an American flag isn't the same as other types of flags, it may have been better if the homeowner had gone to the board and explained what he wanted to do - sometimes people just get mad and rush to the lawyers, and then everything becomes a hot, hot mess. There may have been another way he could honor his son without using something that's been co-opted by hate groups - like the swastika, which was used for thousands of years in Hinduism, Buddhism and other eastern religions as a sign of well-being and fertility until Hitler decided to ruin everything.

Although the article did talk about how divisive the flag has become, I'm afraid people will only read the first few paragraphs and conclude the big bad HOA is smelling itself again. It would be nice if some attorneys made an effort to resolve things without screaming lawsuit because in the end, they'll get paid regardless of the outcome.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I told my people that we fly under the same flag. So having one in your yard makes you no more American. We just kept one flag at the front entrance. Made sure we followed the 25 rules of flying. This included installing a light when flown at night

The biggest issue with flags is not the flight it is the unknown rules for flags. Most people do not know the proper way of flying a flag and maintenance. The HOA does not need to add and enforce those too if they can barely manage existing rules.

I learned about the rules of flying a flag. If you wanted to fly one I recommend you follow them or just take it down. Believe me someone who fought for it will tell you to do it right or not at all.

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

It appears that a third party has picked up the legal action against the HOA.

See: The National Police Association files federal lawsuit against HOA for banning the Thin Blue Line flag

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

I agree Melissa. I learned flag etiquette and my kids learned it in scouts. But it seems some people don't have a clue. I wanted to put an article in the newsletter one month and everyone looked at me like I was crazy.

Florida statue says we have to allow the US flag, state flag and some others, so we allow those. And our rules do allow two small garden flags per yard, and believe it or not we had a complaint because someone wanted more. But we had to put "no political messages" for the garden flags, then we had a disagreement because someone complained about another one's small Ukrainian garden flag. Then there was the full-size "Let's Go Brandon" flag that the homeowner said was not a political statement. They were displaying in their garage and leaving the door up on purpose. We told him he had every right to display the flag in his garage but rules prohibit having it if others can see it. He keeps his door down most of the time now - he was deliberately trying to get around the rules.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our HOA allows only official USA flags on our exclusive use common area balconies.

Residents can place almost any non-commercial signs & banners they want in their own windows tho' size is restricted in our Rules & Regs. (Realtor signs are permitted in windows.)

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

why are hoa's allowed to limit a person's 1st amendment freedoms via CC&R's but none of them infringe on say privacy laws protected under 14th?
If an HOA wants to publish all members behidn on dues why dont' they just change the founding documents and state they can do this and then anyone that moves there is under contract to do so?

never undrestood why HOA's infringement of rights was limited to the 1st.

vis ta vie

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

The 1st amendment specifies that Congress will make no law that infringe on the right of free speech, etc.
It says nothing about private contracts, social media, employers, etc.

See: Constitution of the United States - First Amendment

Poliakoff: Some rules restricting speech legal in condos and HOAs from a florida newspaper

First Amendment Rights at Work – Are There Any? from a legal firm

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

The plaintiffs' lawyer here is arguing that state-run courts under the 14th amendment have no right to restrict political speech.

Courts have found that in cases in which restrictive covenants prevent
homeowners from exercising their right to free speech, judicial enforcement of
such bylaws alone would constitute state action so as to bring those bylaws into the
ambit of the First Amendment. (See Lamprecht v. Tiara at the Abbey Homeowners
Association, No. 12-JE CC0027, 2013 WL 6144144 (Mo. Cir. Oct. 3, 2013); see
also Gerber v. Longboat Harbour N. Condo., Inc., 724 F. Supp. 884, 885 (M.D.
Fla. 1989), order vacated in part on reconsideration, 757 F. Supp. 1339 (M.D. Fla.
1991) (court found state action by virtue of judicial enforcement of private
agreements contained in a declaration of a condominium.)

https://www.bopplaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/NPA-HOA-Complaint-final.pdf

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/15/2022 1:35 PM
The 1st amendment specifies that Congress will make no law that infringe on the right of free speech, etc.
It says nothing about private contracts, social media, employers, etc.

See: Constitution of the United States - First Amendment

Poliakoff: Some rules restricting speech legal in condos and HOAs from a florida newspaper

First Amendment Rights at Work – Are There Any? from a legal firm

don't see the logic, all the other amendments are also on the federal level and thus subject to private contracts, etc. therefore there is no point to what you mention.

the real reason just seems to be tradition, some power hungry HOA lawyer decided to restrict the 1st amendment, and not the others is probably all it boils down to. Maybe the lawyer thought writting down that private dues and debt being displayed publically might piss off people while saying no signs are allowed seems more harmless.

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Do your docs, Wendy, state that the HOA may not publicize delinquent owners and the amount they owe? Ours don't.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 2:58 PM
Do your docs, Wendy, state that the HOA may not publicize delinquent owners and the amount they owe? Ours don't.

no mention of it, therefore state and federal privacy laws prevent it.

however if the docs stated we could publish them I would think that would override the federal and state laws and we could do it legally.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

HOA laws are the lowest on the totem pole. You can't go against City, County, State, local, state, or Federal law. The HOA may be more "restrictive" but it can't break a law.

There is an argument on both sides for publishing delinquencies. Our HOA we kept that information only with the board members. If someone wanted to know about their own account, we had the accountant tell them. We reported the overall Collections and Expenditures. We just did not break that down per household for collections. What we did do is tell everyone what actions we as a board were taking in collecting. Otherwise what is the need to know? The HOA board is the one that has to take the legal action to collect. Vigilante is not something we supported.

Plus our HOA had a policy of 6 months behind we lien. 1 year behind we CONSIDERED foreclosure. (We paid monthly). So what did you need to know as a non-member? The number of who is 6 months behind or we were considering foreclosure. You as an individual member don't need to shame someone into payment. Our legal notices and letters did the trick.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I don't think there are laws preventing the HOA from public shame of delinquents. Our HOA doesn't and I'm personally opposed to it.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Since the average cost to slide a blueback across a desk to your HOA attorney, my best advice is Don't go there. Speciality flags
like the thin blue line, IAFF Police and Firefighters Just don't do it. Let them fly their flags. If it is a sports flag, banner etc that is not the US Flag
or Armed services let them fly along with the recognized public services flags like the TBL and IAFF. All others should be fair game to file suit against
the homeowner if you want to waste money and time.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/15/2022 4:12 PM
HOA laws are the lowest on the totem pole. You can't go against City, County, State, local, state, or Federal law. The HOA may be more "restrictive" but it can't break a law.

There is an argument on both sides for publishing delinquencies. Our HOA we kept that information only with the board members. If someone wanted to know about their own account, we had the accountant tell them. We reported the overall Collections and Expenditures. We just did not break that down per household for collections. What we did do is tell everyone what actions we as a board were taking in collecting. Otherwise what is the need to know? The HOA board is the one that has to take the legal action to collect. Vigilante is not something we supported.

Plus our HOA had a policy of 6 months behind we lien. 1 year behind we CONSIDERED foreclosure. (We paid monthly). So what did you need to know as a non-member? The number of who is 6 months behind or we were considering foreclosure. You as an individual member don't need to shame someone into payment. Our legal notices and letters did the trick.

Obviously wrong if 1 one can't have first amend rights.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Wendy why you stuck on this rights thing? You do not have the right to own a home. You only have a right not to be denied one if you have the means to buy one...

Former HOA President

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/15/2022 3:16 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 2:58 PM
Do your docs, Wendy, state that the HOA may not publicize delinquent owners and the amount they owe? Ours don't.

no mention of it, therefore state and federal privacy laws prevent it.

however if the docs stated we could publish them I would think that would override the federal and state laws and we could do it legally.

That is simply not true. Some HOAs do list who is behind on their fees. The only tradition is that many consider it to be bad form - it can cause undue conflict among homeowners. But the law does not forbid it.

When it comes to political signs, there is an inherent conflict between the rights of homeowners to express their views and the rights of HOAs to control the aesthetics of the community. Courts generally have handled this by allowing political signs while allowing HOAs to put reasonable restrictions in place regarding the size, location, etc. in order to protect the aesthetics.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/15/2022 8:11 PM
Wendy why you stuck on this rights thing? You do not have the right to own a home. You only have a right not to be denied one if you have the means to buy one...

LOL, yep those are words! They dont' make any logical sense, but at least they gave me a laugh.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 3:49 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/15/2022 3:16 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 2:58 PM
Do your docs, Wendy, state that the HOA may not publicize delinquent owners and the amount they owe? Ours don't.

no mention of it, therefore state and federal privacy laws prevent it.

however if the docs stated we could publish them I would think that would override the federal and state laws and we could do it legally.

That is simply not true. Some HOAs do list who is behind on their fees. The only tradition is that many consider it to be bad form - it can cause undue conflict among homeowners. But the law does not forbid it.

When it comes to political signs, there is an inherent conflict between the rights of homeowners to express their views and the rights of HOAs to control the aesthetics of the community. Courts generally have handled this by allowing political signs while allowing HOAs to put reasonable restrictions in place regarding the size, location, etc. in order to protect the aesthetics.

maybe some states allow it, but NC does not under their debt colleciton act.
on the federal level it seems it is only allowed if HOA does their own debt collection, once they had it off to lawyers or collection agency this applies:

As a regulated debt collector, an attorney hired by an HOA is limited by the FDCPA in the actions he or she can take on the association’s behalf. Along with the prohibitions against harassment and misrepresentations, “debt collectors” are also required to make specified disclosures, prohibited from collecting fees not expressly allowed by agreement or law, and limited in how they can communicate with third parties about the debt. See 15 U.S.C. §1692d-f.

the fact that many hoa's illegally disregard this and other rules is already known.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Flying a flag isn't a "Right" or a "Freedom of Speech". No one is MORE "American" because you decide to fly a country flag. There are rules on how to properly fly a flag. How do you know the HOA is enforcing those "rules"? Again take it down if you can't fly it right. That isn't a violation, that is respect for a flag.

Again you do NOT have a "Right" to own a home. There is no such thing. What you have a "Right" to is to NOT be denied the ability to buy a home based on Sex, color, age, or other discrimatory markers.

I really hate it when people get on their high horse that something is a "Right" when it's not one at all. It really doesn't make anyone look intelligent when they can't tell the difference and then try to force their "rights" on you...

Former HOA President

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Restricting the publishing of delinquency lists isn't the same thing as restricting certain kinds of speech - different entities are doing the speaking, for one, and different laws apply. Contract law will be your friend here - people who willingly enter into a contract with terms that aren't to their liking have no grounds to squawk as long as the terms don't violate the law, and ignorance of the contractual terms is no defense.

Even the US constitution restricts certain kinds of speech. Hate speech, for instance, or incitement to violence. And defamation ("speech is free, but defamation will cost you" in the words of various legal types I know).

Private entities such as corporations can also restrict what you can say. If you don't believe it, try shooting off your mouth on your employer's property and see what happens. Even shooting off your mouth on social media can get you booted, as some have discovered.

HOAs have the added burden of needing to comply with Fair Housing laws, and allowing certain types of speech will amount to condoning a hostile environment for protected classes. This can put the association at risk of losing an expensive lawsuit since Fair Housing laws are pretty unforgiving.

Yes, HOAs have restrictions. No, homeowners in community associations can't do whatever the heck they want. Yes, some homeowners find this an intolerable burden and an assault on their quality of life. Live with it, fix it, or move.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/16/2022 4:37 AM
Flying a flag isn't a "Right" or a "Freedom of Speech". No one is MORE "American" because you decide to fly a country flag. There are rules on how to properly fly a flag. How do you know the HOA is enforcing those "rules"? Again take it down if you can't fly it right. That isn't a violation, that is respect for a flag.

Again you do NOT have a "Right" to own a home. There is no such thing. What you have a "Right" to is to NOT be denied the ability to buy a home based on Sex, color, age, or other discrimatory markers.

I really hate it when people get on their high horse that something is a "Right" when it's not one at all. It really doesn't make anyone look intelligent when they can't tell the difference and then try to force their "rights" on you...

LOL. you have the right to ride your high horse and post nonsense to the internet while hypocrtically claiming others are on their high horse are somehow wrong. you'd make a great dictator. and so glad the founding fathers didn't think like you.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/16/2022 4:44 AM
Restricting the publishing of delinquency lists isn't the same thing as restricting certain kinds of speech - different entities are doing the speaking, for one, and different laws apply. Contract law will be your friend here - people who willingly enter into a contract with terms that aren't to their liking have no grounds to squawk as long as the terms don't violate the law, and ignorance of the contractual terms is no defense.

Even the US constitution restricts certain kinds of speech. Hate speech, for instance, or incitement to violence. And defamation ("speech is free, but defamation will cost you" in the words of various legal types I know).

Private entities such as corporations can also restrict what you can say. If you don't believe it, try shooting off your mouth on your employer's property and see what happens. Even shooting off your mouth on social media can get you booted, as some have discovered.

HOAs have the added burden of needing to comply with Fair Housing laws, and allowing certain types of speech will amount to condoning a hostile environment for protected classes. This can put the association at risk of losing an expensive lawsuit since Fair Housing laws are pretty unforgiving.

Yes, HOAs have restrictions. No, homeowners in community associations can't do whatever the heck they want. Yes, some homeowners find this an intolerable burden and an assault on their quality of life. Live with it, fix it, or move.

funny how court case after court case is slowly limiting HOA authority though isn't it. It's almost as if the masses are waking up and instead of being subjected to authoritarian rule created by bylaws stacked against them are finding away to be more loving and caring.

the US constitution should be revered, not used in a sick way to justify silencing voices in HOA communities.

vis ta vie

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

Our Association only allows the American flag and military flags.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

So glad I don't live in an HOA!

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 6:24 AM
So glad I don't live in an HOA!

amen. fighting over what kind of flags is typically an issues only a few power hungry board members get excited about the vast majority of homeowners dont care about it. And most HOA docs are so poorly written that this happens every single freaking year, like clockwork becuase you got someone with a stick up thier ass who wants to go around making everything the same. its sad

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Well first off it has nothing to do with being power hungry. It does indeed have something to do with keeping things consistent and neat. A HOA goal is after all a way to keep your home ATTRACTIVE to potential buyers. Which means having "control" over cleaning up or keeping things "nice" for those living there and those who may live there in the future. How bad power hungry is that?

Also AGAIN pointing out the FACT that there are a whole other separate set of rules or guidelines in the proper way to fly a flag. Those are NOT in your HOA rule book. Why? Because people would claim you were "communist" because the HOA insists the flag not be tattered, taken down at night and put up in the morning, and if flying at night must have a light on it. Now how do you feel about the HOA coming after you for that considering those are the rules for a flag properly flown per the outside rules?

You move into an HOA so you do not live amongst trashy or badly kept neighborhood. In order for that to happen someone has to do it and have rules.

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/16/2022 6:28 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 6:24 AM
So glad I don't live in an HOA!

amen. fighting over what kind of flags is typically an issues only a few power hungry board members get excited about the vast majority of homeowners dont care about it. And most HOA docs are so poorly written that this happens every single freaking year, like clockwork becuase you got someone with a stick up thier ass who wants to go around making everything the same. its sad

I live in a rather nice area, not in an HOA and we don't have any rules. Why is it that people can only live in a neighborhood that has rules?

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

Then when you have no rules, you can then put up the F... Biden flag.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 12/16/2022 12:19 PM
Then when you have no rules, you can then put up the F... Biden flag.

I have the other one up.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 9:39 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/16/2022 6:28 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 6:24 AM
So glad I don't live in an HOA!

amen. fighting over what kind of flags is typically an issues only a few power hungry board members get excited about the vast majority of homeowners dont care about it. And most HOA docs are so poorly written that this happens every single freaking year, like clockwork becuase you got someone with a stick up thier ass who wants to go around making everything the same. its sad

I live in a rather nice area, not in an HOA and we don't have any rules. Why is it that people can only live in a neighborhood that has rules?

There are rules everywhere...city, county, state, federal. An HOA adds another layer. I would prefer not to live in one either, but I do with very limited rules. So far so good. It is also possible to live in a nice neighborhood with no HOA.

The flag issue is so petty. I am a proud daughter, wife, mother, and sister of both men and women serving in the military. I display the American flag in various places inside and outside of my home. I have an American garden flag. I have flag magnets on my fridge. I have a small flag on my desk. I may place one on my porch in the Spring, and I will not be following so-called flag etiquette. If I am breaking flag etiquette so be it. I do not care. I display the flag because I am patriotic and I love this country. I remember my Grandmother displaying the American flag draped over her front door. She was the mother of 3 sons who served in World War II. Was she breaking flag etiquette?

If businesses, schools, government buildings display the American flag, they probably should follow proper flag etiquette. The individual homeowner flying the American flag should not be held to that same standard.

As for other flags, there is an affluent neighborhood not far from where I live that I presume has some strict HOA rules. These are upwards of 1 million dollar homes. Home prices in Nebraska are a lot less than some other parts of the country so 1 million dollars gets you a large, beautiful home in a pristine neighborhood. Hubby and I were driving through this neighborhood looking at paint colors to see what we liked there. I happened to notice a rainbow flag displayed on one of the properties. Of course, I don't know the flag rules in this neighborhood, but I was surprised to see it in that one.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 12/16/2022 12:19 PM
Then when you have no rules, you can then put up the F... Biden flag.

And so what...Please don't bring your politics to this forum. We get enough of that in the media.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LayaS on 12/16/2022 7:25 PM

Posted By MichaelS56 on 12/16/2022 12:19 PM
Then when you have no rules, you can then put up the F... Biden flag.

And so what...Please don't bring your politics to this forum. We get enough of that in the media.

Amen!

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/16/2022 7:54 AM
Well first off it has nothing to do with being power hungry. It does indeed have something to do with keeping things consistent and neat. A HOA goal is after all a way to keep your home ATTRACTIVE to potential buyers. Which means having "control" over cleaning up or keeping things "nice" for those living there and those who may live there in the future. How bad power hungry is that?

Also AGAIN pointing out the FACT that there are a whole other separate set of rules or guidelines in the proper way to fly a flag. Those are NOT in your HOA rule book. Why? Because people would claim you were "communist" because the HOA insists the flag not be tattered, taken down at night and put up in the morning, and if flying at night must have a light on it. Now how do you feel about the HOA coming after you for that considering those are the rules for a flag properly flown per the outside rules?

You move into an HOA so you do not live amongst trashy or badly kept neighborhood. In order for that to happen someone has to do it and have rules.

LOL does the USA goverenment fine you every day your flag is flown without a light, OR put a lien on your house if your flag is overworn?
the answer is no

Do some HOA's fine you every day if you fly the "wrong" flag?
Yes

Are there any studies showing that displaying a flag has decreased a homes value?
NO

your argument has no merit.

vis ta vie

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Feel sorry for those that HAVE to have rules in order to live somewhere.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

As Laya points out, and as we all know, there are rules everywhere. Your last post, Max, is mysterious. what does it mean?

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/17/2022 9:31 AM
As Laya points out, and as we all know, there are rules everywhere. Your last post, Max, is mysterious. what does it mean?

self evident, he has posted many times he is glad he does not live in an hoa

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oh, I know the, Wendy despite the purpose of this forum being to discuss and support HOA leaders & volunteers. He already wrote once in this thread he's glad he doesn't live in an HOA. I don't get that his last post is a simple repetition (and I do mean "simple"). he seem to have some other buried but I'm certain worthwhile point.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/17/2022 5:39 PM
Oh, I know the, Wendy despite the purpose of this forum being to discuss and support HOA leaders & volunteers. He already wrote once in this thread he's glad he doesn't live in an HOA. I don't get that his last post is a simple repetition (and I do mean "simple"). he seem to have some other buried but I'm certain worthwhile point.

Where did find the word "support", in yhe header?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 9:39 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/16/2022 6:28 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 6:24 AM
So glad I don't live in an HOA!

amen. fighting over what kind of flags is typically an issues only a few power hungry board members get excited about the vast majority of homeowners dont care about it. And most HOA docs are so poorly written that this happens every single freaking year, like clockwork becuase you got someone with a stick up thier ass who wants to go around making everything the same. its sad

I live in a rather nice area, not in an HOA and we don't have any rules. Why is it that people can only live in a neighborhood that has rules?

No rules?

No setback limits? No building permits required? No building codes? No snow removal requirements? No parking restrictions? No weed control rules? No fence requirements if you have a swimming pool? No zoning laws? No noise ordinance? You can store your trash in the front yard? No speed limits?

I don’t like all of the architectural guidelines. I’m in an HOA because I wanted a swimming pool and a 55+ community where neighbors social prize. But the rules aren’t exactly burdensome.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/15/2022 3:16 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 2:58 PM
Do your docs, Wendy, state that the HOA may not publicize delinquent owners and the amount they owe? Ours don't.

no mention of it, therefore state and federal privacy laws prevent it.

however if the docs stated we could publish them I would think that would override the federal and state laws and we could do it legally.

Wendy
Our attorney advised us against posting names of delinquent as it could open us up to liable if we were wrong. Personally I am for it. Public Shaming it is called. That said, I doubt there are privacy laws prohibiting such. Show me NC's.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

The North Carolina Debt Collection Practices Act (NCDCPA), N.C.G.S. § 75-50, applies to
debts that are applicable are only the ones incurred for personal, family, household or agricultural
purposes.
126
The NCDCPA generally prohibits the collection of a debt “by means of any unfair
threat, coercion, or attempt to coerce.”
The NCDCPA makes unlawful “any conduct, the natural
consequence of which is to oppress, harass, or abuse any person in connection with the attempt to
collect any debt.”
Finally, the NCDCPA restricts a “debt collector from unreasonably publicizing
information regarding a consumer’s debt; making any fraudulent, deceptive or misleading
representation in collecting a debt; and otherwise using “unconscionable means” to collect the
debt.
Any violation of the NCDCPA by a “debt collector” entitles the debtor to recover civil
penalties in an amount between $500 and $4,000 per violation.
132
The North Carolina Court of Appeals issued two cases in 2000 that clarified the extent to
which the NCDCPA is applicable to homeowners associations and their lawyers. In Davis Lake
Community Ass’n v. Feldmann, 138 N.C. App. 292, 530 S.E.2d 865 (N.C. App. 2000), owners
failed to pay assessments to their association for four consecutive quarters in 1996 and 1997. The
association sent several demand letters to the owners, attempting to collect the $200.95 outstanding
balance plus all attorneys’ fees. The owners tendered a check for $200.95, but this check was
returned to them because it did not include payment for all attorneys’ fees alleged to be owed.

vis ta vie

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/18/2022 5:09 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 9:39 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/16/2022 6:28 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 6:24 AM
So glad I don't live in an HOA!

amen. fighting over what kind of flags is typically an issues only a few power hungry board members get excited about the vast majority of homeowners dont care about it. And most HOA docs are so poorly written that this happens every single freaking year, like clockwork becuase you got someone with a stick up thier ass who wants to go around making everything the same. its sad

I live in a rather nice area, not in an HOA and we don't have any rules. Why is it that people can only live in a neighborhood that has rules?

No rules?

No setback limits? No building permits required? No building codes? No snow removal requirements? No parking restrictions? No weed control rules? No fence requirements if you have a swimming pool? No zoning laws? No noise ordinance? You can store your trash in the front yard? No speed limits?

I don’t like all of the architectural guidelines. I’m in an HOA because I wanted a swimming pool and a 55+ community where neighbors social prize. But the rules aren’t exactly burdensome.

I think you know there are city codes and rules and ones that are imposed by an HOA.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/18/2022 10:01 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/18/2022 5:09 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 9:39 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/16/2022 6:28 AM

Posted By MaxB4 on 12/16/2022 6:24 AM
So glad I don't live in an HOA!

amen. fighting over what kind of flags is typically an issues only a few power hungry board members get excited about the vast majority of homeowners dont care about it. And most HOA docs are so poorly written that this happens every single freaking year, like clockwork becuase you got someone with a stick up thier ass who wants to go around making everything the same. its sad

I live in a rather nice area, not in an HOA and we don't have any rules. Why is it that people can only live in a neighborhood that has rules?

No rules?

No setback limits? No building permits required? No building codes? No snow removal requirements? No parking restrictions? No weed control rules? No fence requirements if you have a swimming pool? No zoning laws? No noise ordinance? You can store your trash in the front yard? No speed limits?

I don’t like all of the architectural guidelines. I’m in an HOA because I wanted a swimming pool and a 55+ community where neighbors social prize. But the rules aren’t exactly burdensome.

I think you know there are city codes and rules and ones that are imposed by an HOA.

I do. But you said you don't want to live where there are rules. You have rules where you live; the HOA just has some additional ones.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

A friend lives in a non-HOA neighborhood in Orange Co. CA. His municipality has numerous rules that we'd find in HOAs as mentioned by DavidG. Plus more. I think he can choose what color to paint his house.

My spouse's & my retirement dream was a urban-center high rise on the seaside. They all are HOAs in our chosen region. The rules of our 20 y.o. condos are not currently burdensome or unreasonable at all. A few original rules were scrapped long ago by board decision as unreasonable & unenforceable.