How to Entice people to pass revised Governing Docs by offering reduction of dues?

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Our Governing docs are 25+ years old and have never been changed. Need 75% of 150 homes to vote to change them. I think we have about 30% rentals.
Our community is extremely apathetic. I read that raising dues would get people to show up at the annual meeting. So we mailed a letter out saying that we would discuss raising dues 10% to $200/yr and we got a whole 8 people to show up plus 3 board members. Need to limit corporate rentals with 3 year waiting period and change several sections that have been outdated by current laws.

Th Governing docs really really need to be updated! Our reserves are 110% funded and we have a park as the only amenity. Its likely we will have about $15K surplus this year. Would offering everyone a $100 dues reduction ($50 decrease in dues for two years) help in getting bylaws passed? What other ways would help? Thinking about next annual meeting. Maybe say something like board is considering special assessment of $500 to build a swimming pool. It would never ever ever pass, but it has been requested for decades and previous boards have outright lied saying the land is in a flood zone or other excuse because they personally were against it; it might give us a good turn out? I dont' consider it bait and hook because everyone knows people have watned a pool forever.

First challenge is getting ahold of the 30% rental owners and finding out how many would be on board or will even bother replying. And Of course I expect to have to knock on doors That's a no brainer, but would like to reduce that work as much as possible. Have already taken a survey to see what the neighborhood wants changed in bylaws, have already gotten estimate from lawyer. Even retyped all the bylaws into a google doc and enabled sharing and revision premissions to collaboratively work on it as a team. Please help my apathetic NC HOA.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

I'm concerned that you think you have a surplus of funds as this is not typical.

Does the Association have a recent reserve study?
What percentage are the reserves funded?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Absolutely no way, this is not lawful. Assessments are defined in your governing docs and they are contractual terms - changing them would require another amendment, and this amendment may require 100% approval (this is the case in my community).

The way to get people to vote is to have amendments that have broad support in the community, along with clear communications and follow-up.

The board should be able to show how the amendments benefit the community, and they should publicize this (newsletters, web sites, mailings, etc.). When we amended our CC&Rs, the lawyer who drafted them also created a "plain English" version. Both of these versions were mailed to the membership along with the ballots for voting.

In addition, our PM monitored the votes that were returned, and we sent a couple more mailings to those who hadn't responded. We had well over 90& response.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/04/2022 6:22 AM
Absolutely no way, this is not lawful. Assessments are defined in your governing docs and they are contractual terms - changing them would require another amendment, and this amendment may require 100% approval (this is the case in my community).

The way to get people to vote is to have amendments that have broad support in the community, along with clear communications and follow-up.

The board should be able to show how the amendments benefit the community, and they should publicize this (newsletters, web sites, mailings, etc.). When we amended our CC&Rs, the lawyer who drafted them also created a "plain English" version. Both of these versions were mailed to the membership along with the ballots for voting.

In addition, our PM monitored the votes that were returned, and we sent a couple more mailings to those who hadn't responded. We had well over 90& response.

our bylaws give us the power to reduce or increase the annual assessment.
I think u are assuming we are getting rid of the annual assessment which in that case you'd be correct we can't do that.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

thanks for your concerns about a reserve study but that's getting off topic. How have other older communities gotten bylaws passed when a super-majority of 75% is needed?

No need to mention only focusing on popular amendments and following up to get broad community suppport, that's a no brainer given and quite easy for active newer communities, especially if only 51% is needed to pass them.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Fair enough about staying on topic of getting votes.

What is the specific requirement to amend the covenants?
What is the specific requirement to amend the Bylaws?

By specific requirement I mean not only the percentage but does it require a vote at a meeting or simply approval of x% ?

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

The best way to do this is through slowly educating the owners on how each proposed change will benefit them directly. There is no quick answer. For example:

"Our 25+ year old governing documents are no longer up to current standards and we need to prevent future lawsuits so that YOU will not have to pay the price via special assessments or increased dues." (Find a case on the internet that illustrates what happened to another community when they failed to address this.)

If you cannot give owners a clear and concise reason on why the proposed changes will benefit them directly your odds of success are slim to none. We spent a total of 2 years getting our docs changed. The first year was spent educating owners via Town Hall meetings, emails, postal mail, etc and then getting feedback. The second year was spent meeting with our lawyer and creating drafts that we then explained to the owners over and over again before we held the vote.

The amount of time and effort we spent on this was enormous but it paid off. I would not advise taking on this effort unless you have people who are willing to dedicate a lot of time and accept upfront that their efforts might ultimately fail.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

regarding general assistance on apathetic membership see:

How To Get Rid Of Apathy In The HOA from a management company

Dealing with Apathy in the HOA from another management company

5 Ways to Get Rid of Apathy in HOA and Condo Associations from HOA Alliance

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

I consider our documents to be fixed in stone because we will never get the number of votes requires to change them. Our by-laws require 66 or 75 percent or something like that in favor, but it is an affirmative vote, which means that 66 or 75 percent of all homeowners must vote yes. We'll never get that.

If we could, there is a bunch of administrative junk that I would like to remove from the CC&Rs (like references to the declarant as the "Class A" member or whatever) to make them easier to read. But, that will never happen so we just suffer through as is.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/04/2022 7:29 AM
Fair enough about staying on topic of getting votes.
What is the specific requirement to amend the covenants?
What is the specific requirement to amend the Bylaws?
By specific requirement I mean not only the percentage but does it require a vote at a meeting or simply approval of x% ?

just 75% affirmative vote for bylaws and covenants.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Good, that means you can do this over time vs. at a single meeting.

By not requiring a meeting for the vote, you can do this over years if need be.
Keep in mind that if a property sells prior to getting enough ballots back, you need to toss the previous owners vote.

My suggestion - Have a document showing the existing and finalized proposed changes mailed to the membership along with a paper ballot.
Have a cover letter specify that the ballot is required to be returned.
On the ballot, have name, address, date, approve/disapprove and signature.
Do not put a date due by on the ballot itself.

After a specific time frame, start calling/knocking on doors of those who have not returned a ballot.
Provide new ballots as necessary.

OPTIONS:

Have the vote for each change (my suggestion)
Have the vote for all or none

Hold meetings to discuss the changes and have ballots at those meetings for those in attendance to sign.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Are your Bylaws and covenants the same documents (in some HOAs, they are)? If two different docs, double check on the % needed to amend the Bylaws. Often, it's only 50% + one or similar.

Voting is different in different states. Tim thinks your voting is a by certain a method. But what is required in your docs & in NC? May owners vote absentee/by mail? Or must they physically attend the Members meetings on this topic? May they vote electronically?

Our urban high rise condo is 200+ unit. About 25% absentee Owners. About another 12% are here part-time as a 2nd home. Our covenants were about 110 pages and Bylaws, 25. The restatements are 77 & 16. From the day we mailed out secret (in CA) ballots, until we decided to count the votes, was 5 months. 5 of the 7 directors worked individually & very hard on their assigned group of voters. As a recently retired long-term director, I worked hard too. Personal notes at doors, texts & calls to absentee owners.

About 3 months after sending out the ballots, we sent a 2nd batch only to those who hadn't voted with a stamped return envelope. We included 2 snappy pages of the specific changes that had been proposed. We did not have any changes that owners would love, but none controversial either.

After about 3 months we started having a drawing each week for $100. We publicized the winner and posted in the elevators. Also in the elevator we had art of a thermometer & how high our ballots return was on it.

One argument we included at the 2 Town halls I and in Letters that hasn't been mentioned here is that lenders prefer up-to-date docs.

A redlined version was posted on our website.

We needed 75% yes on the covenants and received about68% yes. In Ca HOAs can go to court to have a judge approve under certain criteria. We did that via our HOA counsel and were approved)

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/04/2022 9:37 AM

We needed 75% yes on the covenants and received about68% yes. In Ca HOAs can go to court to have a judge approve under certain criteria. We did that via our HOA counsel and were approved)

wish we had there here. pretty sure we do not.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackS20 on 12/04/2022 6:45 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/04/2022 6:22 AM
Absolutely no way, this is not lawful. Assessments are defined in your governing docs and they are contractual terms - changing them would require another amendment, and this amendment may require 100% approval (this is the case in my community).

The way to get people to vote is to have amendments that have broad support in the community, along with clear communications and follow-up.

The board should be able to show how the amendments benefit the community, and they should publicize this (newsletters, web sites, mailings, etc.). When we amended our CC&Rs, the lawyer who drafted them also created a "plain English" version. Both of these versions were mailed to the membership along with the ballots for voting.

In addition, our PM monitored the votes that were returned, and we sent a couple more mailings to those who hadn't responded. We had well over 90& response.

our bylaws give us the power to reduce or increase the annual assessment.
I think u are assuming we are getting rid of the annual assessment which in that case you'd be correct we can't do that.

If your governing docs allow you to selectively reduce assessments for certain individuals but not for others, then they're *very* unusual.

In general, the governing docs will say how owners are to be assessed, and these rules apply to everyone. Often owners are assessed the same amount (for HOAs) or based on par value of the home (condos). There are exceptions to the same-amount-rule for HOAs, such as when lots sizes vary and owners of the large ones are assessed more. But the CC&Rs will state that.

And yes, the board is allowed to raise and decrease annual assessments. But that means for everyone as spelled out in the CC&Rs, not selectively. Assessments are contractual terms, and the contract applies to all homeowners. Mess with them and you're asking to be sued by the more alert homeowners. If you insist on going down this path, please talk to the HOA's lawyer first.

Now if you also charge something like usage fees for amenities, you may be able to reduce that. "Swim for free this summer!" in other words. But something like this can still cause hard feelings among the membership, which you may not want to deal with.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

no one is selectively getting a discount everyone would be. not sure how you misread that.

So no one has tried a discount of some sort to encourage passing bylaw amendments? spending 2 years with repetitive mailings and door knocking doesn't sound very efficient. Why is it when a board wants lawn care done or maintenance done they hire pros but they don't do the same with Amending docs? Why not hire professional door knockers?

After sending out and getting the first round of responses, is there a reason for a board to wear the souls of their shoes walking around?
there are many in home sale door knockers that work totally off commission. you could pay per completed signature.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackS20 on 12/04/2022 11:29 AM
no one is selectively getting a discount everyone would be. not sure how you misread that.

... snip ...

I misread it because I can't see the effectiveness of offering to reduce assessments if everybody's assessments are reduced regardless of whether or not they actually voted. I can totally see the absentee owners going "kewl!" and not voting - so you'll have less income with no approved amendments to show for it.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/04/2022 8:27 AM
Good, that means you can do this over time vs. at a single meeting.

By not requiring a meeting for the vote, you can do this over years if need be.
Keep in mind that if a property sells prior to getting enough ballots back, you need to toss the previous owners vote.

My suggestion - Have a document showing the existing and finalized proposed changes mailed to the membership along with a paper ballot.
Have a cover letter specify that the ballot is required to be returned.
On the ballot, have name, address, date, approve/disapprove and signature.
Do not put a date due by on the ballot itself.

After a specific time frame, start calling/knocking on doors of those who have not returned a ballot.
Provide new ballots as necessary.

OPTIONS:

Have the vote for each change (my suggestion)
Have the vote for all or none

Hold meetings to discuss the changes and have ballots at those meetings for those in attendance to sign.

Sound advice. We once talked to our lawyer about doing a Covenant via signatures on a petition. He said that if the petition was properly worded, we had one year to collect signatures. Our SC docs say 51% of all owners need to agree to a Bylaw change. 2/3rds of all owners need to agree to a Covenant change. Read youd docs close for these %'s. I say never, never ever reduce dues.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Did you miss my above questions, Jack? Did you notice that it took us 5 months to get a really good turnout? If we'd stuck it out an additional month, we may have gotten the 75%. But, we really were burned out.

Imo, "professional door-knockers" would highly ineffective and would even tick off some owners. Others wouldn't like their doors spent on strangers bothering them in their homes. What, maybe you were kidding?

Honest-to-gawd neighbors who truly care about your community are far more effective. In my case of personal contact with owners, some had additional questions or observations that prof door knockers would be clueless about.

It's never a wise idea to give owners a break on their dues.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I think you won't find many reducing assessments because so many HOAs and especially condos already have unrealistically low assessments that aren't covering actual expenses, in addition to a certain number of delinquent owners. It would be financial suicide, especially in communities that require homeowner approval for assessment increases beyond a certain point.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/04/2022 12:11 PM

Posted By JackS20 on 12/04/2022 11:29 AM
no one is selectively getting a discount everyone would be. not sure how you misread that.

... snip ...

I misread it because I can't see the effectiveness of offering to reduce assessments if everybody's assessments are reduced regardless of whether or not they actually voted. I can totally see the absentee owners going "kewl!" and not voting - so you'll have less income with no approved amendments to show for it.

Please just stop and re read what I wrote, everyone of your posts has been an incorrect assumption including this one. discount only occurs if amendments are passed. If you have ideas on how to get apathetic voters to vote great.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/04/2022 12:16 PM
I think you won't find many reducing assessments because so many HOAs and especially condos already have unrealistically low assessments that aren't covering actual expenses, in addition to a certain number of delinquent owners. It would be financial suicide, especially in communities that require homeowner approval for assessment increases beyond a certain point.

dont' care about other HOA's
Only care about mine
We have extra money.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/04/2022 12:14 PM
Did you miss my above questions, Jack? Did you notice that it took us 5 months to get a really good turnout? If we'd stuck it out an additional month, we may have gotten the 75%. But, we really were burned out.

Imo, "professional door-knockers" would highly ineffective and would even tick off some owners. Others wouldn't like their doors spent on strangers bothering them in their homes. What, maybe you were kidding?

Honest-to-gawd neighbors who truly care about your community are far more effective. In my case of personal contact with owners, some had additional questions or observations that prof door knockers would be clueless about.

It's never a wise idea to give owners a break on their dues.

A really good turn out that indeed! but if we had a similar turn out of only 68% it woudl be a total waste of time, because I'm pretty sure we can't petitioitn a court in NC to pass it anyways. And we dont' have an elevator we have about 40 acres of land with several entrances.

so if in house door knockers are so much better should be offer people in our community $40 or $60 or $100 for every approval contract and pay our own membership?

It's a temporary discount not a permanent one and we are flush with costs.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

When we updated our Declaration, we held a number of small meetings answering questions. We also put articles in our monthly newsletter that explained the updates that we are being proposed along with some of the questions and answers that have been asked. Time consuming process but very effective.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

When we updated our Declaration, we held a number of small meetings answering questions. We also put articles in our monthly newsletter that explained the updates that we are being proposed along with some of the questions and answers that have been asked. Time consuming process but very effective.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Look, Jack we did all of the things other have mentioned. Elevators aren't required to get a good turnout. I also noted if we'd stuck to it another month or two, we could have made the 75%.

I'd asked how votes are done on your state/HOA. Can you answer that question? And my others? It might help other think of strategy. I must say, though, that Your common courtesy skills are lacking, which may turn off some good posters as well as your voters.

Sure, if your HOA is flush with cash all manner of incentives can be offered to owners. They're pretty simple to imagine. Is the Board in your HOA useless in coming up with any?

There are, btw, some articles on the web about this topic. Goggle is your friend.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/04/2022 5:32 PM
Look, Jack we did all of the things other have mentioned. Elevators aren't required to get a good turnout. I also noted if we'd stuck to it another month or two, we could have made the 75%.

I'd asked how votes are done on your state/HOA. Can you answer that question? And my others? It might help other think of strategy. I must say, though, that Your common courtesy skills are lacking, which may turn off some good posters as well as your voters.

Sure, if your HOA is flush with cash all manner of incentives can be offered to owners. They're pretty simple to imagine. Is the Board in your HOA useless in coming up with any?

There are, btw, some articles on the web about this topic. Goggle is your friend.

sorry, didn't mean to come off rude. I get tired of the assumptions and off topic chatter. I think the old fashion pen and ink is needed in North Carolina. One lawyer said it is questionable if it could be done electronically, though I see no reason why not when I can sign my mortgage papers electronically. Just need to invest in Adobe sign subscription perhaps. Seems like the entire world is useless to come up with any. I've yet to google any article that makes a 75% supermajority vote even difficult to obtain. Every article sounds like a pain in the ass nagging gruling procedure. If anyone finds one let me know cause all the suggestions here are slow and tedious.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You do understand that your dues are INCOME of your HOA. Why the away income? Plus filing and updating paperwork is not free. It will cost you thousands of dollars. So why would you not want to cover your expenses?

Former HOA President

JeanneH3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 158

Posted:

If you have a surplus of cash, you might want to check NC law before you tie giving owners a refund to passing an amendment.

NC General Statute 47C‑3‑114. Surplus funds.

Unless otherwise provided in the declaration, any surplus funds of the association remaining after payment of or provisions for common expenses and any prepayment of reserves must be paid to the unit owners in proportion to their common expense liabilities or credited to them to reduce their future common expense assessments. (1985 (Reg. Sess., 1986), c. 877, s. 1.)

I know the above law refers to condominium HOA because I'm in a condominium HOA and am familiar with the laws pertaining to condos but whether this applies to all other HOAs is one your attorney should answer for you. Our HOA would be required by law to either apply the surplus to future assessments or pay each owner a refund if we had a surplus of cash....and it can't be tied to passing an amendment as the qualifier for receiving the refund.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Sometimes excess cash also shows too much "savings". Like your NOT spending the money on the items your HOA needs. Changing your rules etc... is an expense that will be taken out of your budget money. It's not a reserve item. Plus it will eat up that and any extra cash you may have on hand. A HOA budget does NOT run like a home budget. So you don't need to be concentrating on the saving of money. More on the spending money collected on the operation of the HOA. Savings in a non-profit or "bake sales" can equal taxes. Best to try to find a project to spend the money on that reimbursing. Governing documents with legal, distribution costs, and etc will quickly eat up any money may thing is "extra". Plus it will show your HOA is spending money on the right things. Like operational expenses. THis may make more people want to vote on the changes...

Former HOA President

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Melissa and Jeannine Thanks for your concern. your posts do not apply to our HOA's circumstances. I assure you before I thought of reducing dues temporarily I checked the laws and how much a lawyer would cost. Only looking for comments related to unique ways to get people to vote. Last vote we had we offered $200 gift card raffled off if and only if we got 33% response rate. Apparently people don't read the boring business letter annual meeting announcement. Even another board member was unaware we were offering a $200 prize until I posted it on Facebook. So even fellow board members don't read it. the FB group only reaches about 1/3 of our membership based on poll responses I've gotten.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/05/2022 4:45 AM
Sometimes excess cash also shows too much "savings". Like your NOT spending the money on the items your HOA needs. Changing your rules etc... is an expense that will be taken out of your budget money. It's not a reserve item. Plus it will eat up that and any extra cash you may have on hand. A HOA budget does NOT run like a home budget. So you don't need to be concentrating on the saving of money. More on the spending money collected on the operation of the HOA. Savings in a non-profit or "bake sales" can equal taxes. Best to try to find a project to spend the money on that reimbursing. Governing documents with legal, distribution costs, and etc will quickly eat up any money may thing is "extra". Plus it will show your HOA is spending money on the right things. Like operational expenses. THis may make more people want to vote on the changes...

you can start your own thread ranting about your opinion on how budgets should be done. This thread is about apathetic voters. please keep on topic.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

No, nope, nada, hell to the naw!

As others have said, it could be illegal, not to mention reflect a huge misunderstanding of basic math. Reducing the assessments leaves less money to provide services, including whatever you do to care for your park. Your vendors do not care about your having less money - their costs are their costs, you signed the agreements to provide the services, so you can't go back and say "uh, we reduced assessments this year, so we have to renegotiate your agreement." You'd be better off keeping the assessments for another year, and based on your community's level of apathy, even that wouldn't make a difference. Sadly, apathy is a problem everywhere, including in my own community. It seems nothing works until there's a major disaster and then people start pointing fingers at everyone except the people in the mirror (remember Surfside?)

By the way, the swimming pool is a separate issue - and it appears the majority of the people in your community don't care about that either. If there was a question of the pool being a problem because the land is in a flood zone, why didn't someone contact the county or state to find out for certain? If people still wanted a pool, they could have checked as to whether there was another area it could have been built. Pools are great, but they also cost money to build and maintain. Say bye-bye to that reserves being 110% funded because now you'd have to factor in the pool's major repairs and replacement costs. That's why we eventually got rid of ours.

Anyway, your next to last sentence could be the place to start. Do a homeowner poll to see what sort of changes people would like to see in the bylaws and CCRs for that matter, and go from there. I doubt people will pull it out and actually read it (although they should), so you may have to design the poll by highlighting some of the bylaws' major points. For example, your bylaws probably don't address virtual meetings of any kind - ask if they should be updated to allow the board to establish policies as to when and how they should be done. Or the number of board members - if the bylaws call for five, but there have been problems getting volunteers, do people think the work can be done if the number was reduced to three? Maybe people think the number should be increased to 7 or 9.

You may still need to do the door-knocking to encourage participation, but be sure you have paper and electronic options to respond to the poll. I've heard a 20% response of any poll is a good start. Even if you don't get it, it may be the board will have to work with the association attorney to determine which changes are critical - concentrate on edcating the homeowners about that. From there, people may ask other questions or make suggestions you can work on.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 12/05/2022 5:40 AM
No, nope, nada, hell to the naw!

As others have said, it could be illegal, not to mention reflect a huge misunderstanding of basic math. Reducing the assessments leaves less money to provide services, including whatever you do to care for your park. Your vendors do not care about your having less money - their costs are their costs, you signed the agreements to provide the services, so you can't go back and say "uh, we reduced assessments this year, so we have to renegotiate your agreement." You'd be better off keeping the assessments for another year, and based on your community's level of apathy, even that wouldn't make a difference. Sadly, apathy is a problem everywhere, including in my own community. It seems nothing works until there's a major disaster and then people start pointing fingers at everyone except the people in the mirror (remember Surfside?)

By the way, the swimming pool is a separate issue - and it appears the majority of the people in your community don't care about that either. If there was a question of the pool being a problem because the land is in a flood zone, why didn't someone contact the county or state to find out for certain? If people still wanted a pool, they could have checked as to whether there was another area it could have been built. Pools are great, but they also cost money to build and maintain. Say bye-bye to that reserves being 110% funded because now you'd have to factor in the pool's major repairs and replacement costs. That's why we eventually got rid of ours.

Anyway, your next to last sentence could be the place to start. Do a homeowner poll to see what sort of changes people would like to see in the bylaws and CCRs for that matter, and go from there. I doubt people will pull it out and actually read it (although they should), so you may have to design the poll by highlighting some of the bylaws' major points. For example, your bylaws probably don't address virtual meetings of any kind - ask if they should be updated to allow the board to establish policies as to when and how they should be done. Or the number of board members - if the bylaws call for five, but there have been problems getting volunteers, do people think the work can be done if the number was reduced to three? Maybe people think the number should be increased to 7 or 9.

You may still need to do the door-knocking to encourage participation, but be sure you have paper and electronic options to respond to the poll. I've heard a 20% response of any poll is a good start. Even if you don't get it, it may be the board will have to work with the association attorney to determine which changes are critical - concentrate on edcating the homeowners about that. From there, people may ask other questions or make suggestions you can work on.

It's not illegal and the basic math has been done. The swimming pool issues have been analyzed as well and as already mentioned we already did a poll. Again I'm looking for unique ideas to get people to vote. Maybe we'll get some giant pink flamingos and put them up @ entrance and tell members they won't come down till people vote, you know stuff like that. , not a rehash of every off topic tangent.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Why is every approach your taking as a threat or denial of something? No wonder no one wants to participate or vote. That is just a horrible way to do things. Seriously they are not children.

I spent 2 years struggling to get the votes for our changes. It was a year or two struggle before me as well. We just had 5 changes.

We had a clause that required a special meeting in order to change the docs. No way could we get 90% vote. That was impossible. Instead our lawyer drafted a document stating you would give up that right to cast vote at special meeting. That meant we could go door to door to collect the votes or at our meeting.

So what preventing from going door to door or have a meeting?

Former HOA President

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackS20 on 12/05/2022 5:59 AM

Posted By SheliaH on 12/05/2022 5:40 AM
No, nope, nada, hell to the naw!

As others have said, it could be illegal, not to mention reflect a huge misunderstanding of basic math. Reducing the assessments leaves less money to provide services, including whatever you do to care for your park. Your vendors do not care about your having less money - their costs are their costs, you signed the agreements to provide the services, so you can't go back and say "uh, we reduced assessments this year, so we have to renegotiate your agreement." You'd be better off keeping the assessments for another year, and based on your community's level of apathy, even that wouldn't make a difference. Sadly, apathy is a problem everywhere, including in my own community. It seems nothing works until there's a major disaster and then people start pointing fingers at everyone except the people in the mirror (remember Surfside?)

By the way, the swimming pool is a separate issue - and it appears the majority of the people in your community don't care about that either. If there was a question of the pool being a problem because the land is in a flood zone, why didn't someone contact the county or state to find out for certain? If people still wanted a pool, they could have checked as to whether there was another area it could have been built. Pools are great, but they also cost money to build and maintain. Say bye-bye to that reserves being 110% funded because now you'd have to factor in the pool's major repairs and replacement costs. That's why we eventually got rid of ours.

Anyway, your next to last sentence could be the place to start. Do a homeowner poll to see what sort of changes people would like to see in the bylaws and CCRs for that matter, and go from there. I doubt people will pull it out and actually read it (although they should), so you may have to design the poll by highlighting some of the bylaws' major points. For example, your bylaws probably don't address virtual meetings of any kind - ask if they should be updated to allow the board to establish policies as to when and how they should be done. Or the number of board members - if the bylaws call for five, but there have been problems getting volunteers, do people think the work can be done if the number was reduced to three? Maybe people think the number should be increased to 7 or 9.

You may still need to do the door-knocking to encourage participation, but be sure you have paper and electronic options to respond to the poll. I've heard a 20% response of any poll is a good start. Even if you don't get it, it may be the board will have to work with the association attorney to determine which changes are critical - concentrate on edcating the homeowners about that. From there, people may ask other questions or make suggestions you can work on.

It's not illegal and the basic math has been done. The swimming pool issues have been analyzed as well and as already mentioned we already did a poll. Again I'm looking for unique ideas to get people to vote. Maybe we'll get some giant pink flamingos and put them up @ entrance and tell members they won't come down till people vote, you know stuff like that. , not a rehash of every off topic tangent.

Here's your answer. There is no quick magical answer to address this. You either put in the work needed or you don't.

JeanneH3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 158

Posted:

You want to know how to get people to vote? You call every single owner and talk to them. My husband did just that years ago. Hundreds of phone conversations. It takes a lot of power to overcome the inertia of apathy and ignorance.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/05/2022 6:10 AM
Why is every approach your taking as a threat or denial of something? No wonder no one wants to participate or vote. That is just a horrible way to do things. Seriously they are not children.

I spent 2 years struggling to get the votes for our changes. It was a year or two struggle before me as well. We just had 5 changes.

We had a clause that required a special meeting in order to change the docs. No way could we get 90% vote. That was impossible. Instead our lawyer drafted a document stating you would give up that right to cast vote at special meeting. That meant we could go door to door to collect the votes or at our meeting.

So what preventing from going door to door or have a meeting?

what's preventing me is I have bone spurs, or maybe I think your method of taking 2 years to get it done might not be the most efficient way? did it ever occur to you that all of your basic suggestions are exactly that. I've spent more than 5 minutes googling this which is all your typing amounts to. I"m not a child either. I've researched this and you are treating me like a child who hasnt' done their homework get over it.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanneH3 on 12/05/2022 6:23 AM
You want to know how to get people to vote? You call every single owner and talk to them. My husband did just that years ago. Hundreds of phone conversations. It takes a lot of power to overcome the inertia of apathy and ignorance.

ok sounds better than knocking on doors.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2022 6:19 AM

Posted By JackS20 on 12/05/2022 5:59 AM

Posted By SheliaH on 12/05/2022 5:40 AM
No, nope, nada, hell to the naw!

As others have said, it could be illegal, not to mention reflect a huge misunderstanding of basic math. Reducing the assessments leaves less money to provide services, including whatever you do to care for your park. Your vendors do not care about your having less money - their costs are their costs, you signed the agreements to provide the services, so you can't go back and say "uh, we reduced assessments this year, so we have to renegotiate your agreement." You'd be better off keeping the assessments for another year, and based on your community's level of apathy, even that wouldn't make a difference. Sadly, apathy is a problem everywhere, including in my own community. It seems nothing works until there's a major disaster and then people start pointing fingers at everyone except the people in the mirror (remember Surfside?)

By the way, the swimming pool is a separate issue - and it appears the majority of the people in your community don't care about that either. If there was a question of the pool being a problem because the land is in a flood zone, why didn't someone contact the county or state to find out for certain? If people still wanted a pool, they could have checked as to whether there was another area it could have been built. Pools are great, but they also cost money to build and maintain. Say bye-bye to that reserves being 110% funded because now you'd have to factor in the pool's major repairs and replacement costs. That's why we eventually got rid of ours.

Anyway, your next to last sentence could be the place to start. Do a homeowner poll to see what sort of changes people would like to see in the bylaws and CCRs for that matter, and go from there. I doubt people will pull it out and actually read it (although they should), so you may have to design the poll by highlighting some of the bylaws' major points. For example, your bylaws probably don't address virtual meetings of any kind - ask if they should be updated to allow the board to establish policies as to when and how they should be done. Or the number of board members - if the bylaws call for five, but there have been problems getting volunteers, do people think the work can be done if the number was reduced to three? Maybe people think the number should be increased to 7 or 9.

You may still need to do the door-knocking to encourage participation, but be sure you have paper and electronic options to respond to the poll. I've heard a 20% response of any poll is a good start. Even if you don't get it, it may be the board will have to work with the association attorney to determine which changes are critical - concentrate on edcating the homeowners about that. From there, people may ask other questions or make suggestions you can work on.

It's not illegal and the basic math has been done. The swimming pool issues have been analyzed as well and as already mentioned we already did a poll. Again I'm looking for unique ideas to get people to vote. Maybe we'll get some giant pink flamingos and put them up @ entrance and tell members they won't come down till people vote, you know stuff like that. , not a rehash of every off topic tangent.

Here's your answer. There is no quick magical answer to address this. You either put in the work needed or you don't.

captain obvious to the rescue. if you can't offer a suggestion to improve on years of door knocking. why waste your time even replying? there have been a handful of on topic responses, thanks to those few.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

No one said did not do research. One is saying your approach is not working as it is rather off putting and leaves a bad taste in ones mouth. Simple as that

What time table did you think exists? Are you pulling out the sky or putting a timeline down for it? Is it in 6 months? 3 months?

It took us years not out of laziness or not doing the work. It took those years as we meet once a month. That is 12 opportunity a year to get 107 people to meet in one place. Plus people move in and out as such a pace you have to redo the vote constantly to make sure no renters.

It takes hard work and dedication. It is not forced upon someone or leverage threats. If that is the way your HOA does business then no wonder no one wants to do anything.

I have a bone in my leg but I still got the work done ...

Former HOA President

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackS20 on 12/05/2022 7:18 AM

Posted By JohnT38 on 12/05/2022 6:19 AM

Posted By JackS20 on 12/05/2022 5:59 AM

Posted By SheliaH on 12/05/2022 5:40 AM
No, nope, nada, hell to the naw!

As others have said, it could be illegal, not to mention reflect a huge misunderstanding of basic math. Reducing the assessments leaves less money to provide services, including whatever you do to care for your park. Your vendors do not care about your having less money - their costs are their costs, you signed the agreements to provide the services, so you can't go back and say "uh, we reduced assessments this year, so we have to renegotiate your agreement." You'd be better off keeping the assessments for another year, and based on your community's level of apathy, even that wouldn't make a difference. Sadly, apathy is a problem everywhere, including in my own community. It seems nothing works until there's a major disaster and then people start pointing fingers at everyone except the people in the mirror (remember Surfside?)

By the way, the swimming pool is a separate issue - and it appears the majority of the people in your community don't care about that either. If there was a question of the pool being a problem because the land is in a flood zone, why didn't someone contact the county or state to find out for certain? If people still wanted a pool, they could have checked as to whether there was another area it could have been built. Pools are great, but they also cost money to build and maintain. Say bye-bye to that reserves being 110% funded because now you'd have to factor in the pool's major repairs and replacement costs. That's why we eventually got rid of ours.

Anyway, your next to last sentence could be the place to start. Do a homeowner poll to see what sort of changes people would like to see in the bylaws and CCRs for that matter, and go from there. I doubt people will pull it out and actually read it (although they should), so you may have to design the poll by highlighting some of the bylaws' major points. For example, your bylaws probably don't address virtual meetings of any kind - ask if they should be updated to allow the board to establish policies as to when and how they should be done. Or the number of board members - if the bylaws call for five, but there have been problems getting volunteers, do people think the work can be done if the number was reduced to three? Maybe people think the number should be increased to 7 or 9.

You may still need to do the door-knocking to encourage participation, but be sure you have paper and electronic options to respond to the poll. I've heard a 20% response of any poll is a good start. Even if you don't get it, it may be the board will have to work with the association attorney to determine which changes are critical - concentrate on edcating the homeowners about that. From there, people may ask other questions or make suggestions you can work on.

It's not illegal and the basic math has been done. The swimming pool issues have been analyzed as well and as already mentioned we already did a poll. Again I'm looking for unique ideas to get people to vote. Maybe we'll get some giant pink flamingos and put them up @ entrance and tell members they won't come down till people vote, you know stuff like that. , not a rehash of every off topic tangent.

Here's your answer. There is no quick magical answer to address this. You either put in the work needed or you don't.

captain obvious to the rescue. if you can't offer a suggestion to improve on years of door knocking. why waste your time even replying? there have been a handful of on topic responses, thanks to those few.

Here's another tip. If you are as smug and grumpy with your neighbors as you are on this forum the you probably don't have the communication skills needed to pull this off.

Captain Obvious

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

we need to have a notary verify their identity with drivers license for the amendments to pass
or
have a witness meet with a notary saying they witnessed the member sign the document.

given that only 70% of members live on site this might be extremely difficult. getting the landlords to go to a notary and sign the form is a hassle that most will probabaly not do.

Getting a witness statement notarized locally is easy, it's the 30% that live offsite that's makes this hard.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

looks like we can get electronic notarization. just have to figure if amending bylaws is a form that can be done electronically through NC law
https://www.mcguirewoods.com/client-resources/Alerts/2022/9/nc-extends-video-notarization-witnessing-authorizes-permanent-remote-electronic-notarization

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So from what you posted did not see any actual action. Just assumptions. Did anyone make any attempts? If so what was it?

When had a neighbors who wanted to join the city, we got a notice from the city requiring a notary signature. Just had to take it to bank as they had notaries. Plus we had one in the neighborhood. They are not that hard to arrange if needed. It was just a simple form they stamped

This will cost money for the mailings and return postage if want to take that route. Make sure have the HOA address covered and if they have alternative addresses. Can not rely on the renter giving the owner landlord the mail.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Will you tell us what's required for owners to vote? Do they receive ballots in the mail? Must they attend a membership meeting to vote? Or can they mail in their ballots? Are they secret ballots (as in CA) or do the ballot tabulators see names on the ballots?

Surely your docs and NC don't required every vote to be notarized? I'd be get to hear form the Wie Kelly of NC at this time. Or Pat of NC. Or Wendy.

As noted we have 25% absentee owners + another 12-13% who live in our assn. part-time. They were the most difficult to get to vote. but, also as noted, the directors & I each had a "precinct," and worked on absentee owners in our own way. I sent text messages & emails. Other did phone them. Our second mailing to them with a SASE did get a fair # to budge.

Frequent $100 drawings were pretty effective too. In retrospect, a final grand drawing prize, to be held the night ballots are tabulated, would be a really good last-ditch incentive. By "grand," I mean maybe something like $500- $1,000.

Our HOA attorney, who's been involved with about 1,000 covenant amendments or rewrites advised us to use the "precinct" method as in his experience is it's the most effective method.

No matter what, Jack, it will be tedious, frustrating, hard work.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Every single vote needs to be notarized if we go about getting the votes one by one. Therefore either a witness or a notary has to visit every home or set up a zoom meeting to do it online. they can't be mailed in because of the notary requirement of NC.

However I did find out that we actually only need 66% due to our PCA law which overrides our HOA's orginal amount.

OR we could have a meeting and get 66% affirmative vote at the meeting. but I'm pretty sure that is next to impossible unless the board turn the park into a nuclear waste dump and pissed off everyone enough to attend.

Guess I have to ask a lawyer if we can hold a meeting that's about 300 days long so that gives us enough time to get everyone to vote. unfortunately it's not an either or situation. we can't get 50% to affirm at meeting and then just need another 15% notarized.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackS20 on 12/05/2022 11:46 AM
Every single vote needs to be notarized if we go about getting the votes one by one. Therefore either a witness or a notary has to visit every home or set up a zoom meeting to do it online. they can't be mailed in because of the notary requirement of NC.

However I did find out that we actually only need 66% due to our PCA law which overrides our HOA's orginal amount.

OR we could have a meeting and get 66% affirmative vote at the meeting. but I'm pretty sure that is next to impossible unless the board turn the park into a nuclear waste dump and pissed off everyone enough to attend.

Guess I have to ask a lawyer if we can hold a meeting that's about 300 days long so that gives us enough time to get everyone to vote. unfortunately it's not an either or situation. we can't get 50% to affirm at meeting and then just need another 15% notarized.

Jack

You are saying a notary or a witness. Can I assume anybody, including a spouse, adult child, etc. can be the witness? if yes, then this is not that big an obstacle.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/05/2022 12:13 PM

Posted By JackS20 on 12/05/2022 11:46 AM
Every single vote needs to be notarized if we go about getting the votes one by one. Therefore either a witness or a notary has to visit every home or set up a zoom meeting to do it online. they can't be mailed in because of the notary requirement of NC.

However I did find out that we actually only need 66% due to our PCA law which overrides our HOA's orginal amount.

OR we could have a meeting and get 66% affirmative vote at the meeting. but I'm pretty sure that is next to impossible unless the board turn the park into a nuclear waste dump and pissed off everyone enough to attend.

Guess I have to ask a lawyer if we can hold a meeting that's about 300 days long so that gives us enough time to get everyone to vote. unfortunately it's not an either or situation. we can't get 50% to affirm at meeting and then just need another 15% notarized.

Jack

You are saying a notary or a witness. Can I assume anybody, including a spouse, adult child, etc. can be the witness? if yes, then this is not that big an obstacle.

it's still an obstacle because the witness has to go to a notary and sign a statement saying they saw the owner sign the paper, so it still needs to get notarized either over zoom or in person.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

https://lawfirmcarolinas.com/blog/new-appellate-decision-significantly-impacts-declaration-amendments/

well something positive has come out of this thread. I just found about a law case in NC that states owners can have dwarf goats and chickens according to above lawyer. time to see how much dwarf goats cost.

sorry back on topic, the above case also states that both husband and wife need to sign any HOA amendments. great that probabaly doubles the number of signatures required. ugh!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Can you quote your actual document say on making changes? CC&Rs and Articles of Incorporation have their own set percentage. What are you basing this on?

Our HOA there is no notary required. Plus it is just signing a form which then is filed when we file the changes.

Has this gone through a lawyer for the changes? This is not something should do without one.

Former HOA President