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WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
We send out approximately 200 violations letters a year Mgt Co. charges HOA $5/letter or $1000/year. They pay $1.10/letter is their cost.

In 2022 zero homeowners were monetarily fined for CC&R violations. Most people correct the problem after getting the letter. Our bylaws only state that the annual meeting needs to be physically mailed. Violators of CC&R's just need to be notified.
Can my HOA board simply email out the notifications which are free through HOA LIFE?

If the violation was not corrected our fines policy states they are invited to a hearing and then can be fined. I think sending a certified letter at that point would be worth the expense.

But I see spending $1000 on letters as a big waste.

Any input appreciated.

vis ta vie
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
You have a few options.

One, you can send a "friendly reminder" via e-mail and not letter, prior to sending a warning. A friendly reminder is the same thing as a warning except it says friendly reminder at the top of the letter instead of warning.

Two, you could ask the property management company to drop their cost of mailing from $5 to $1.10 to reflect actual cost. We argued about the coupon cost and they agreed. They are more likely to agree if they want to keep you as a client.

Three, you could work with your attorneys to see what your legal options are. Since compliance is a quasi-legal process, you have to follow your CC&Rs, state law, and your rules and regulations.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
There is another option. You can get as many homeowners as possible to sign an electronic consent document so you can legally email all official notices instead of sending. We have a big push on to do that right now as the postage alone for our annual meeting was $1.10 per household and ridiculous in this day and age - when most of it just goes immediately in recycling.

That way you would legally be covered even for the friendly reminder of the violation.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/30/2022 10:07 AM
You have a few options.

One, you can send a "friendly reminder" via e-mail and not letter, prior to sending a warning. A friendly reminder is the same thing as a warning except it says friendly reminder at the top of the letter instead of warning.

Two, you could ask the property management company to drop their cost of mailing from $5 to $1.10 to reflect actual cost. We argued about the coupon cost and they agreed. They are more likely to agree if they want to keep you as a client.

Three, you could work with your attorneys to see what your legal options are. Since compliance is a quasi-legal process, you have to follow your CC&Rs, state law, and your rules and regulations.

thanks I'm sure you are right about the legal aspect of it. I am not worried about violating the NC debt collections act because that only applies if they owe us money and warning emails without fines wouldn't fall under that law.


vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 11/30/2022 10:30 AM
There is another option. You can get as many homeowners as possible to sign an electronic consent document so you can legally email all official notices instead of sending. We have a big push on to do that right now as the postage alone for our annual meeting was $1.10 per household and ridiculous in this day and age - when most of it just goes immediately in recycling.

That way you would legally be covered even for the friendly reminder of the violation.

thanks we will work on that this year when we try to update bylaws.

vis ta vie
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
As others have said, you can negotiate with the property manager, but maybe you could try telling your neighbors it would be a lot better for the association if they would simply comply with the rules. $1000 may or may not be much compared to the size of your community, but these days, every dime adds up. Take a look at what those violations were for and note the patterns.

Sometimes, it makes more sense to people when you show how this stuff hits their wallet, directly or indirectly, as in "50% of our letters were sent because people park on the grass (a violation of X). Not only do we have to pay to send you letters, but the association also has to pay to replace the dead grass or the ruts the tires left because the car was on the grass for X days. In total, this costs $ per homeowner. It may not be a big deal to you, but $1000 could also go for things like better lighting at the entrance, and we're sure you prefer to spend that $ per homeowner on other things for your home."

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 11/30/2022 10:30 AM
There is another option. You can get as many homeowners as possible to sign an electronic consent document so you can legally email all official notices instead of sending. We have a big push on to do that right now as the postage alone for our annual meeting was $1.10 per household and ridiculous in this day and age - when most of it just goes immediately in recycling.

That way you would legally be covered even for the friendly reminder of the violation.

Are you sure this is an option in North Carolina?

That is why I suggested having the HOA attorney offer an opinion to the HOA about options. I am not familiar with North Carolina law regarding electronic consent.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We can do electronic consent in Ca, but I also don't know about NC. If NC permits this, Wendy, you won't need to update your bylaws on this subject.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Thanks for the keyword to search for. Looks like every except annual meetings can be done electronically.

§ 2.07. Uniform Electronic Transactions Act
The Uniform Electronic Transactions Act, N.C.G.S. §§ 66-312, et seq., helps homeowners and
condominium associations conduct business electronically, through web portals and electronic mail.
The statute generally applies to electronic records and electronic signatures relating to a transaction.
The statute applies only to transactions between parties each of whom has agreed to conduct
transactions by electronic means.
Under the statute, a consumer transaction means a transaction
involving a natural person with respect to or affecting primarily personal, household, or family
purposes.
Thus, a homeowner voting in an association election would be a ā€œtransactionā€ potentially
covered by the statute. In fact, almost all association matters would be considered a ā€œtransactionā€
under the statute, with the exception of formal amendments in instances where the document being
amended requires a ā€œwritten instrumentā€ signed by a certain number of owners. One of the main
benefits of the statute is to allow voting online if the owners consent to using such technology.
Where the law requires a record to be in writing, an electronic record satisfies the law
provided it complies with the provisions of this statute.
It also states that if the law requires a
signature, an electronic signature satisfies the law provided it complies with the provisions of the
statute.
Therefore, written consents for action without a meeting by both members and board
members of an association and requests for records by a member and notices of association meetings
can be evidenced by an electronic mail. Further, it would allow proxies and ballots to be in the form
of electronic mail or an online portal as well.In addition, the statute allows notices of meetings to
be sent over the internet or via electronic mail if owners have consented to receiving such notices
in this manner.

Even though the intent of the statute is to facilitate electronic transactions, there
are limitations to the statute. For instance, where the PCA and Condominium Act require various
written notices to member

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
For instance, where the PCA and Condominium Act require various
written notices to members who owe assessments, the statute would not allow such notices to be
given only electronically.

opps rest of law book got cut off.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Wendy,

What makes you think changing the delivery method will have the MC reduce the cost?

If the contract specifies each violation letter is $5 then each violation letter (regardless of delivery method) is $5.

I also don't think you are accounting for the time to create, print, mail and file with your $1.10 expense.

Time to create: 10 min
Time to fold/stuff/mail: 2 min
Time to file: 2 min.

Minimum billing time: likely 30min.

Cost of postage
Cost of envelope
Cost of paper
Cost of ink
Wear and Tear on printer

You get the idea.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/30/2022 1:07 PM
Wendy,

What makes you think changing the delivery method will have the MC reduce the cost? .

Because the MC doesn't do the mailings or emailings. they use a service called HOALIFE which clearly displays the cost per mailing fee as $1.10 and also shows emails are free. Further more the contract states.
Property Inspections – One per month included

Now they could try to charge us an admin fee, which is $95 per hour, but I would counter that they farm this out and therefore an admin fee would be bulls***t because all they would have to do is send one email to HOALIFE telling them to email only from now on out.

vis ta vie
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Can a board member print and mail the notices?
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/30/2022 1:07 PM
Wendy,

What makes you think changing the delivery method will have the MC reduce the cost?

If the contract specifies each violation letter is $5 then each violation letter (regardless of delivery method) is $5.

.

I believe this is true. Our PMC monthly invoices to every home, and one of our board members suggested we allow people have have setup Autopay to opt out of the monthly invoice to save money, but the PM showed that the contract specifies the invoicing fee regardless of whether or not we actually send an invoice. Something I would hope to renegotiate at some point, but is likely common.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:16 PM
Can a board member print and mail the notices?

yes they could, but I dont' want to do that , and I bet others dont either.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:20 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 11/30/2022 1:07 PM
Wendy,

What makes you think changing the delivery method will have the MC reduce the cost?

If the contract specifies each violation letter is $5 then each violation letter (regardless of delivery method) is $5.

.


I believe this is true. Our PMC monthly invoices to every home, and one of our board members suggested we allow people have have setup Autopay to opt out of the monthly invoice to save money, but the PM showed that the contract specifies the invoicing fee regardless of whether or not we actually send an invoice. Something I would hope to renegotiate at some point, but is likely common.

our contract does not state a $5/letter. it only states a $95/hr fee for administrative stuff. Maybe I can say the $5/letter fee is not authorized by the contract?

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Compensation for Management Services
The Association shall pay administrative and clerical expenses including base postage that is incurred by agent for the Association. This includes but is not limited to preparation and
circulation of notices, invoicing, newsletters and other general correspondence. In addition, the cost of any repairs, materials or supplies to the property installed or furnished by Agent shall
be borne by the Association.


Hmm, reading above contract terms it states we are only to be charged base postage, but we are being charged $5 instead of $1.10. Am I being a penny pincher or do others agree with my interpretation of the contract?

vis ta vie
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 1:21 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:16 PM
Can a board member print and mail the notices?


yes they could, but I dont' want to do that , and I bet others dont either.

Well that simplifies things. Unless someone else can think of another solution it looks like you have two choices. Accept it or take on the responsibility to find another company that does these types of mailings. Maybe you'll find a cheaper solution?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/30/2022 2:49 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 1:21 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:16 PM
Can a board member print and mail the notices?


yes they could, but I dont' want to do that , and I bet others dont either.


Well that simplifies things. Unless someone else can think of another solution it looks like you have two choices. Accept it or take on the responsibility to find another company that does these types of mailings. Maybe you'll find a cheaper solution?

Contract says we are to pay base postage, which is $1.10 per letter per the HOALIFE website.
They are charging us $5/letter which I think is not allowed per the contract. is one option
2nd option is to tell them to just stop doing mailing and do the free email.

I think my 2 options are much easier and better solution.

vis ta vie
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 2:58 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/30/2022 2:49 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 1:21 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:16 PM
Can a board member print and mail the notices?


yes they could, but I dont' want to do that , and I bet others dont either.


Well that simplifies things. Unless someone else can think of another solution it looks like you have two choices. Accept it or take on the responsibility to find another company that does these types of mailings. Maybe you'll find a cheaper solution?


Contract says we are to pay base postage, which is $1.10 per letter per the HOALIFE website.
They are charging us $5/letter which I think is not allowed per the contract. is one option
2nd option is to tell them to just stop doing mailing and do the free email.

I think my 2 options are much easier and better solution.

You said they charge a $95 an hour admin fee and your argument is that all they have to do is send an email. If they spend two minutes on this then the charge would be $3.16. Now add the $1.10 fee to cover the mailing service and the total is $4.26. I know you'll argue they don't spend two minutes but I think you'll lose.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/30/2022 3:04 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 2:58 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/30/2022 2:49 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 1:21 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:16 PM
Can a board member print and mail the notices?


yes they could, but I dont' want to do that , and I bet others dont either.


Well that simplifies things. Unless someone else can think of another solution it looks like you have two choices. Accept it or take on the responsibility to find another company that does these types of mailings. Maybe you'll find a cheaper solution?


Contract says we are to pay base postage, which is $1.10 per letter per the HOALIFE website.
They are charging us $5/letter which I think is not allowed per the contract. is one option
2nd option is to tell them to just stop doing mailing and do the free email.

I think my 2 options are much easier and better solution.


You said they charge a $95 an hour admin fee and your argument is that all they have to do is send an email. If they spend two minutes on this then the charge would be $3.16. Now add the $1.10 fee to cover the mailing service and the total is $4.26. I know you'll argue they don't spend two minutes but I think you'll lose.

it would be 2 minutes for all 200 letters sent over the year, not for every single letter. You basically log onto HOALIFE and change it from physical mail to email only under settings.

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Wendy,

I am curious, how are they created either prior to going into HOALIFE or created in HOALIFE, or do they just magically just appear?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 11/30/2022 5:29 PM
Wendy,

I am curious, how are they created either prior to going into HOALIFE or created in HOALIFE, or do they just magically just appear?

Management company drives around the neighborhood with a smart phone and the HOALIFE app and takes phtoos and enters in very very short description of violation. This monthly report is part of our HOA mgt company fee.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 11/30/2022 5:29 PM
Wendy,

I am curious, how are they created either prior to going into HOALIFE or created in HOALIFE, or do they just magically just appear?

Management company drives around the neighborhood with a smart phone and the HOALIFE app and takes phtoos and enters in very very short description of violation. This monthly report is part of our HOA mgt company fee.

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Do you know how long it takes to set one association up on violation compliance?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 11/30/2022 5:42 PM
Do you know how long it takes to set one association up on violation compliance?

no but I'm just gonna make a wild ass guess that when we intially signed up with the MC, they charged us a one month fee to set up our accounts and that fee would cover you know stuff like setting up a violations compliance account. They also charge 3 months of fees if we decide to leave them. And I expect that to cover, oh I dont' know stuff like getting our records together. Seems like setting up would be a lot more work than transfering records. but what do I know.

If that's not how it works let me know.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
I totally get that MC's are hated by boards and residents a like, it's becuase they do stuff that is not transparent and dont' feel the need to notify the board that all these nickle and dime fees, not mentioned specifically anywhere in the contract adds up to thousands of dollars.

Our manager came by a few months ago to see our neighborhood and do the violations reports. She wrote up probably 80 violations (wild guess it was a lot more than normal) Never told the board that was gonna cost $400. Yeah I should of looked at the monthly report closer, but when all it says is admin fees with no break down it's totally opaque on purpose.

After almost one year in this position I have finally figgured out that the MC' makes most of thier money in hidden fees. The monthly fee they quote is a minority of thier profit. Kind of feel bad it took this long. But honestly my predacessors for the last 25 years never figgured it out.


vis ta vie
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 7:13 PM
I totally get that MC's are hated by boards and residents a like, it's becuase they do stuff that is not transparent and dont' feel the need to notify the board that all these nickle and dime fees, not mentioned specifically anywhere in the contract adds up to thousands of dollars.

Our manager came by a few months ago to see our neighborhood and do the violations reports. She wrote up probably 80 violations (wild guess it was a lot more than normal) Never told the board that was gonna cost $400. Yeah I should of looked at the monthly report closer, but when all it says is admin fees with no break down it's totally opaque on purpose.

After almost one year in this position I have finally figgured out that the MC' makes most of thier money in hidden fees. The monthly fee they quote is a minority of thier profit. Kind of feel bad it took this long. But honestly my predacessors for the last 25 years never figgured it out.


Wendy, your first sentence is wrong. I love our managemetn company and our property manager. They do great.

Ours charges a fixed price which includes pretty much as many compliance letters as we need. No per letter cost. Officially they charge extra for over 25 letters per month (260 per year) but unofficially we've never been charged for more and we've directed them to send hundreds of letters per year. We pay a lot to the company for the fixed price contract but they do a lot for us. I do a ton to help them suceed, which they do, and as a result we have a happy community for the most part.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 1:21 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:16 PM
Can a board member print and mail the notices?


yes they could, but I dont' want to do that , and I bet others dont either.



Do you want to save money or not? As David pointed out, you either pay someone to do this or do it yourself. When our community had paper newsletters, I prepared it, went to the local office supply story to photocopy it and walked around the community to hand deliver the thing. I would email a copy to the property manager who would email or snail mail copies to the offsite owners and I was reimbursed for the printing costs.

You know the price of everything is up, and whether you want to or not, you have to factor in the cost of printing and postage, and the person writing up the letter (although it goes a little faster if you use Word Merge or a similar program). It's ok to look for cost savings where you can find them, but since you're not the only person on your board, have you even discussed this with them to see if there are other options out there?

Nothing wrong with email notices if it's permitted by your documents or state law, so talk to your attorney and get your answer. If you have to use snail mail, do the work and go look around for a printing company who might offer a lower cost. Such is capitalism - aint' it grand?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 12/01/2022 5:53 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 1:21 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/30/2022 1:16 PM
Can a board member print and mail the notices?


yes they could, but I dont' want to do that , and I bet others dont either.



Do you want to save money or not? As David pointed out, you either pay someone to do this or do it yourself. When our community had paper newsletters, I prepared it, went to the local office supply story to photocopy it and walked around the community to hand deliver the thing. I would email a copy to the property manager who would email or snail mail copies to the offsite owners and I was reimbursed for the printing costs.

You know the price of everything is up, and whether you want to or not, you have to factor in the cost of printing and postage, and the person writing up the letter (although it goes a little faster if you use Word Merge or a similar program). It's ok to look for cost savings where you can find them, but since you're not the only person on your board, have you even discussed this with them to see if there are other options out there?

Nothing wrong with email notices if it's permitted by your documents or state law, so talk to your attorney and get your answer. If you have to use snail mail, do the work and go look around for a printing company who might offer a lower cost. Such is capitalism - aint' it grand?

Email notices will be fine as long as other board members agree. appreciate the reply.

vis ta vie
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 2:22 PM
Compensation for Management Services
The Association shall pay administrative and clerical expenses including base postage that is incurred by agent for the Association. This includes but is not limited to preparation and
circulation of notices, invoicing, newsletters and other general correspondence. In addition, the cost of any repairs, materials or supplies to the property installed or furnished by Agent shall
be borne by the Association.


Hmm, reading above contract terms it states we are only to be charged base postage, but we are being charged $5 instead of $1.10. Am I being a penny pincher or do others agree with my interpretation of the contract?

What do not understand about the above bold? Read it again: shall pay administrative and clerical expenses plus base postage. Thus the question is what are their administrative and clerical expenses? As an example, a violation letter has to be tailored as to an individual and the violation. They are just not spit out with the press of a button. Someone has to prepare the letter.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Wendy,

Even if the MC uses a service, they have to pay for that service (likely a monthly fee).
That cost would be added into the cost of the letter/email being sent and charged back to the client.
Not to mention the cost for the labor putting the info into a format the company would accept.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/02/2022 12:42 AM
Wendy,

Even if the MC uses a service, they have to pay for that service (likely a monthly fee).
That cost would be added into the cost of the letter/email being sent and charged back to the client.
Not to mention the cost for the labor putting the info into a format the company would accept.

Contract states we pay a one month set up fee for setting up our account
Contract states once a month inspections are included in base monthly management fee
Yes the Mgt Co pays about $40 a month to use this 3rd party to send out and manage violations

I think you and others are assuming how you would run this operation and forgetting that no where in our contract does it state it works the way you think it should work.

For example how can they bill us admin fees if a 3rd party is doing the work?
How cna they charge $5/letter when the contract state we are to be charged base postage which is $1.10

anyways have a board meeting coming up soon and see what other 2 board members think.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/01/2022 12:29 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/30/2022 2:22 PM
Compensation for Management Services
The Association shall pay administrative and clerical expenses including base postage that is incurred by agent for the Association. This includes but is not limited to preparation and
circulation of notices, invoicing, newsletters and other general correspondence. In addition, the cost of any repairs, materials or supplies to the property installed or furnished by Agent shall
be borne by the Association.


Hmm, reading above contract terms it states we are only to be charged base postage, but we are being charged $5 instead of $1.10. Am I being a penny pincher or do others agree with my interpretation of the contract?


What do not understand about the above bold? Read it again: shall pay administrative and clerical expenses plus base postage. Thus the question is what are their administrative and clerical expenses? As an example, a violation letter has to be tailored as to an individual and the violation. They are just not spit out with the press of a button. Someone has to prepare the letter.

So even though the contract states monthly inspections are included at no extra cost, and even though the Mgt company's own monthly break down doesn't have a row for admin fees, we should just eat the markupp without question cause that's how you feel like it should be billed?

I don't think so. If a Mgt Co. writes a contract stating monthly inspections are included and we pay base postage, they shouldn't be marking up postage to $5/ltr when they are using a 3rd party to do it for $1.1/ltr.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Wendy,

Using your figures:

$40 per month x 12 =$480
$1.10 x 200 letters per year = $220

Lets say they pay their employees $10 per hour and it takes 15 min to put one violation into the system
200 violations x 1.25 hours x $10 per hour = $500

$480 for year of 3rd party service + $220 for postage + $500 in labor = $1,200 or about $6 per violation letter.

Your Association is paying $1,000 (or $5 per violation letter) for that service.

Now, one can argue that it takes less then 15 min to enter a violation notice into the system.
However, I suspect that the MC is paying more then $10 per hour for an employee.

Even if you knock the time down to 5 min per violation (or 1/12 of an hour) you get a little over 15 hours of work (lets round it to 15 hours for 200 violations).
15 hours x $10 per hour = $150
$480 for service + $220 for letters + $150 for labor = $850 or about $4.25 per letter and you are being charged $5.

Is this the battle you want to fight or would it be better to save time and energy and pick a bigger battle?

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/02/2022 6:34 AM
Wendy,

Using your figures:

$40 per month x 12 =$480
$1.10 x 200 letters per year = $220

Lets say they pay their employees $10 per hour and it takes 15 min to put one violation into the system
200 violations x 1.25 hours x $10 per hour = $500

$480 for year of 3rd party service + $220 for postage + $500 in labor = $1,200 or about $6 per violation letter.

Your Association is paying $1,000 (or $5 per violation letter) for that service.

Now, one can argue that it takes less then 15 min to enter a violation notice into the system.
However, I suspect that the MC is paying more then $10 per hour for an employee.

Even if you knock the time down to 5 min per violation (or 1/12 of an hour) you get a little over 15 hours of work (lets round it to 15 hours for 200 violations).
15 hours x $10 per hour = $150
$480 for service + $220 for letters + $150 for labor = $850 or about $4.25 per letter and you are being charged $5.

Is this the battle you want to fight or would it be better to save time and energy and pick a bigger battle?


I agree with the over all premise, however you forgot the most important part! the contract states their monthly fee includes violations inspections! that means we dont' pay extra for it! So the $40/month they pay to make it easier for them to do is why we pay $500/month to them, because it's included in the cost.

I dont' care if it takes them 4 hours to enter in a violation, they said it was included in the monthly cost in the contract. In reality it is simply a matter of opening the smart phone app, taking a picture and then hitting the mic icon and voice typing something like grass too tall.

If it comes down to it I will volunteer to email out the violations so we dont' get charged these nickel and dime fees.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Wendy,

Making an inspection to identify potential violations and sending notifications are two different things.

Like it or not, most MCs charge extra for sending violation notices.

The board could agree to send the notifications themselves, thereby avoiding the $5 fee.
Just tell the MC to make reports to the board on what the violations are and the board will follow up with the owners.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/02/2022 8:54 AM
Wendy,

Making an inspection to identify potential violations and sending notifications are two different things.

Like it or not, most MCs charge extra for sending violation notices.

The board could agree to send the notifications themselves, thereby avoiding the $5 fee.
Just tell the MC to make reports to the board on what the violations are and the board will follow up with the owners.

thanks I think that is a good idea. I can do a few minutes work once a month to save $1000/year for hoa.
I guess I will need to ask during every interaction what we are being charged for becuase it is never disclosed upfront. nor is the contract specific enough to make charges transparent.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Keep in mind that if you mail the notices (vs. email), you will still have expenses:

Postage in 2023 = $ 0.63
Envelope = ~ $ 0.06
Paper = ~ $ 0.02
Ink + Wear and Tear on Printer

Lets call it $1.00 per letter
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/02/2022 11:03 AM
Keep in mind that if you mail the notices (vs. email), you will still have expenses:

Postage in 2023 = $ 0.63
Envelope = ~ $ 0.06
Paper = ~ $ 0.02
Ink + Wear and Tear on Printer

Lets call it $1.00 per letter

I'm going to recommend to other board members email or just drive around neighborhood and put in their mail box. or tape to the outside if putting inside is illegal. have to research that. Maybe even change bylaws to allow it, not sure.

vis ta vie
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
We use email communications for "violations" and - yes - they are notifications/reminders only. Violations corrections are handled by process, which includes an in-person due process hearing. If repeated attempts to digitally communicate fail, then hard copied and mailed letters are appropriate in my opinion.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/02/2022 2:41 PM

I'm going to recommend to other board members email or just drive around neighborhood and put in their mail box. or tape to the outside if putting inside is illegal. have to research that. Maybe even change bylaws to allow it, not sure.

Putting the letter inside or attaching it to the mailbox is in violation of the postal code.

See:

Restrictions for attaching flyers, posters, etc. to a mailbox from the USPS

Is it a Federal Crime to Put a Letter in Someone Else’s Mailbox?

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