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TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I am the current chairperson of the Architectural Review Committee in our neighbor. It is roughtly 230 homes. I have owned here for 16 years and been involved on the ARC for many of those years.

The ByLaws dictate that 5 members are appointed by the BOD and direct our responsiblity as, "In order to control design and location of houses and other improvements to be construction, erected, placed or installed (hereinafter “improvements”) upon the lots in the Subdivisions, an Architectural Review Committee (hereinafter “Committee”) is hereby created for the purpose or reviewing approving suggestion changes to, and rejecting plans and specifications for such improvements (regardless of when such improvements are made) and the landscaping of each lot and performing all obligations and responsibilities the Restrictive Covenants impose on the Committee."

Further, the Covenants state, "The design, location and complete construction plans (hereinafter "plans") of all improvements on each lot (regardless of when such improvements are made) and the landscaping of each lot must be approved in advance by the Architectural Review committee, hereinafter referred to as the "Committee," which Committee is established pursuant to the Bylaws. No building, fence, wall, bulkhead, dock, pier, pool, outbuilding, driveway or any other accessory feature to the dwelling or any other structure upon any lot shall be commenced, erected, placed, maintained or altered on any lot or combination of contiguous lots, nor shall the grade or elevation or physical characteristics of any lot, combination of contiguous lots, or portions of a lot or lots thereof be altered in any way whatsoever, until the proposed building plans, specifications, exterior colors and finishes, site and grading plans (showing the proposed location of such building or structure, drives, parking areas and proposed alterations to the grade, elevation or physical characteristics of the site) and the construction schedule have been approved in writing by the Committee."

In addition, the covenants state, "The Committee's refusal to approve any such plans, location or specification may be based by the committee upon any ground, including purely aesthetic and environmental considerations, that it, in its sole and uncontrolled discretion, shall deem sufficient."

These statements are what we have always considered the core of our responsiblity and authority. There are of course, many other statements in the covenants that give specific directions as to what is allowed and what isn't, regarding many topics. The ARC has always felt these directives, unless it states otherwise, are non negotiable parameters. There is also a clause in the covenants that states, "Enforcement of these Restrictions may be at law or in equity against any person or persons violating or attempting to violate any covenant, condition or restriction herein contained."

We have recently completed a nearly 2 year ARC Guideline Revision project, as our previous Guidelines were very inadequate. We are in the middle of a new phase of building (it will be our last, but there are still many lots to be built on) and that has created many problems as many people are new to the area and don't understand the desired architecture for our community (we are in NC and this is a community of Southern, Low Country Homes).

To make things official, we submitted our completed Guidelines to the BOD expecting them the review and approve them. This BOD are all new to the community (all less than 3 years residents). They want to 'change things', make things 'more updated', improve the 'antiquated requirements'. Without any consultation with the ARC, they have recently called several community meetings regarding ARC Guidelines, put several items out to the entire community, regarding ARC things that the covenants state are ARC responsiblities, for a community vote. They state they want to change many things in the Guidelines that are in the covenants (that change would require a 2/3 vote of the community). All members of the ARC feel they are exceeding their authority in being involved and trying to dictate the parameters of the ARCs guidelines for certain home improvement projects. In fact many people in the community are worried about the direction that the community is heading.

I have asked the managment company for a legal review to determine if the BOD are overstepping their authority. The BOD of would have to grant the approval for this expense, for legal consult. The management company is really not very well versed in our covenants. In fact, they actually stated that they couldn't know the specifics of all the covenants of all the communities that they manage. We have not asked for the approval for the legal consult, as we feel that would be the last resort. Talking to the BOD (we did request a meeting) was not fruitful as they essentially lied to us. In fact, wiithin less than 2 weeks, they sent out another email blast to the community with 2 items to be voted on, once again without any consult with the ARC, othat directly affects historic ARC decisions that have been in play since the beginning of the community.

I could not be more avaialbie or flexible with my time. Every email that is exchange with the president of the BOD I state to contact me via email, text or phone call if needed. Nearly every email from the president has been laced with antagonism and it seems a need to be the authoritative figure.

Further, we are part of the NC Planned Community Act. This act states, "Except as provided in the declaration, in the bylaws, in subsection (b) of this section, or in other provisions of this Chapter, the executive board may act in all instances on behalf of the association." We feel that because the ByLaws and the covenants give us clear direction and authority, this is outside of the realm of the BOD's authority.

I found this site and thought I would see if anyone had any insight.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Teresa

Your ARC is appointed by the BOD. The BOD has the final say, not your ARC. The MC should have nothing to do with it. Your committee is only advisory. They are not in charge.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
Well said. The title of the committee is ARC Architectural REVIEW Committee, which are not elected but appointed by the Board who are elected.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
ARC guidelines should reflect what the owners want whenever possible. If the Board gets the needed votes to change them then so be it.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
For our association, the ACC committee meetings monthly and makes recommendations to the Board. The Board then approves the recommendations. We've never overturned an ACC decision to date, but always have the right. It is nice for the ACC because it gives them plausible deniability if they reject an ACC application and the homeowner gets ticked off. They can simply say - talk to the Board, it was them who made the decision, not us.

It also ensures that the ACC is not making decisions that are different than what the Board wants.

I will say that our Board takes a strong interest in ACC applications and they would not hesitate voting different than an ACC decision if so inclined.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Our ARC also has been revising our Arch. Guidelines. But the board has the final word. Since the ARC wants to add a new (& stupid) rule. In CA the proposed revised Guidelines, became it contains a new rules, must go out to Owners for a 28-day comment period. After that, the board meets again and approve or not the new Guidelines.

In NC, the Board also has a lot or all control of the ARC Guidelines. BUT, if the Board has introduced Sections that conflict with your covenants, that certainly is beyond the board's authority UNLESS your CC&Rs or Bylaws give the board such authority in ARC matters.

Agree with others, your PM has nothing to do with this. What you can try to do as an ARC is to write to the board a request for the HOA attorney to review the changes that you question. Make it an agenda item too accompany your usual report to the Board.
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thanks to everyone that has responded.

Over the years, our ARC has functioned very independently. In fact, our ByLaws nor our Covenants actually state there is to be a liaison to the ARC from the BOD. Many years we have functioned without a liaison if the BOD failed to appoint one. The ARC has always been fully responsible for all the submittals, decisions, record keeping, BUA calculations, etc. as has been carried out since the responsibilities were turned over, from the declarant, to the community.

Ours is a community of custom homes, on nice size lots. The ARC was formed when the declarant sold his last lot in the last of the initial phases. I have the original collectioin of person notes taken by the first ARC members that detail the initial decision making processes. They carefully reviewed and incorporated the pertinent information included in the governing documents into the first set of guidelines. Then they added additional needed information after discussing with the declarant and deciding what the overall vision for the community was to be going forward. (The declarent is temporarily back in the picture because he added to the community with the most current phase). All the current homeowners have historically followed these guidelines with very few people having an issue. The covenants are tied to our deeds and there is an expectiation that there will be ARC review and approval for each new build and improvment.

The ARC has always looked at the job as extremely important. The community is beautiful and the ARC works very hard to maintain the high standards that have been set.

It has always been determined that since the ByLaws state that our responsibilities are to, "control design and location of houses and other improvements to be construction, erected, placed or installed (hereinafter “improvements”) upon the lots in the Subdivisions" it is the committees decisions, culled together since the formation of the first committee, In addtion, I don't know how the statement, which the covenants specifically state, "The Committee's refusal to approve any such plans, location or specification may be based by the committee upon any ground, including purely aesthetic and environmental considerations, that it, in its sole and uncontrolled discretion, shall deem sufficient" can be misinterpreted. If the ARC is charged with the 'control and design of houses, etc.' and something can be denied in the ARCs 'sole and uncontrolled discretion', how can the board change the specifics that has been the historic precedence for decisions as determined by the ARC?

The covenants specifically state, "Fences are to be of a design as declared by the declarant or if the declarant so declared, by the ARC." Fences are something that the BOD has taken upon themselves to rewrite the guidelines and in many cases the 'rewrite' is very incorrect. They have no understanding of fences or their setbacks, in fact ony one even has a fence. There was no discussion with anyone on the ARC regarding the expectations of fence placements. The revised guidelines that we have completed are very thorough and even have schematics included for approved fence styles. They have 'rewritten' the guidelines to state that a homeowner has to install a fence 4' from their property line. In addition, our covenants specifically state that fence setbacks are to be determined by the ARC on a case by case basis. Homeowners often submit a request for installation on the lot line, and it is often approved, as it should be.

The current BOD wants to totally remove 'opinion' out of the ARCs decision making process and disallow any use of 'aesthetics' in relationship to ARC decisions. This is impossible. The comically thing is, they just approved and installed street signs that were the most expensive options because they are 'attractive' or rather 'aesthetically' pleasing, in other words. This is okay and street signs aren't even permanent. However, the ARC isn't expected to use 'aesthetics' to approve a permanent structure.

In the last probably 3 years there have only about 4 denials and most of those we were able to work with the homeower to reach an acceptabe compromise, which was for the better of the community, beyond a doubt.

I am not, by any means, on an ARC search for a power trip. In fact, out of frustration in regards to the lack of respect toward the ARC from the BOD, I am running for the BOD, so maybe I will be able to effect a change in the impression and increase the understanding of how the ARC functions. The ARCs current concern is that we don't want the current BOD to revise the ARC guidelines so that they aren't even close to reflecting the parameters that have lead this community to be what it is today, and then actually make them active. This is very concerning because we are in a very active build time for us. We have handled over 50 new builds in the last 2 years and although things have slowed down with the increase in interest rates, I still expect many new builds to occur in the next year.

From my understanding the NC Planned Community Acts requirements/rules come first, unless something is specifically designated in the Restrictive Covenants. The president is said to have authority over everything to do with the Association, unless otherwise directed in the Covenants. So why does the president, and how can they have authority over decisions, like fence design and/or setbacks if the covenants clearly deliniate those as the ARCs responsiblities. Furthermore, if the covenants give the ARC 'sole and uncontrolled discretion' to make a decision how can the BOD overrule that?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
you are misinterpreting NC statues. The real question is does your documents allow for variances? Read below for your legal options. This is quoted from NC Bar:

§ 15.09. Liability for Wrongful Approval

When an architectural committee approves an improvement, the owner seeking the approval
is entitled to construct the improvement consistent with the approved application. One of the things
an architectural committee should consider is the views and opinions of surrounding neighbors.
However, these views and opinions are not, in and of themselves, controlling on whether the
planned improvement is accepted or rejected. Since there may be only a handful of committee
members, none of whom live in the immediate vicinity of the owner making the improvement,
there may be disgruntled owners around the owner who are impacted by and dissatisfied with
the committee’s decision. The question then becomes: is there any liability for the committee’s
decision? Do dissatisfied owners unhappy with the planned improvement have a claim against the
committee members or the association itself for approving the improvement? The opposite question
of wrongfully withholding plans has been dealt with by courts under the business judgment rule
standard and in North Carolina on an “arbitrary and capricious” standard.
69
What if the committee
deviates from architectural guidelines in approving an improvement? Or what if the committee
fails to respond in the requisite number of days to an application that is otherwise objectionable
and inconsistent with the plan and scheme of development?

There are no appellate cases in North Carolina where an association or architectural
committee has been sued for “wrongful approval” of an owner’s plans. However, cases from other
jurisdictions are instructive. Some courts have exonerated associations who have deviated from
the plan and scheme of development where they were allowed to do so under the declaration. In
La Ventana Ranch Owners’ Ass’n v. Davis, 363 S.W.3d 632 (Tex. App. 2011), review denied (Aug.
17, 2012), reh’g overruled (Feb. 1, 2012), homeowners brought a declaratory judgment action
against their homeowners association and developer, seeking to have variances declared valid. The
covenants prevented drilling for water, but allowed the architectural committee to issue variances.
The committee issued variances allowing private water wells and propane tanks. Dissatisfied owners
unhappy with the variances sued and lost at the trial level. On appeal, the Court of Appeals determined
that since the committee could grant variances in its “sole and absolute discretion,” the owners could
not successfully sue the committee to have the decision overturned.
70
Further, the Court of Appeals
determined that there was no fiduciary duty between the committee members and the owners.
71

Other courts have come to similar conclusions in declining to subject architectural
committees to liability for decisions made by those committees. In Lowenthal v. Stanley, 102
Or. App. 568, 795 P.2d 595 (1990), homeowners brought an action against members of their
architectural control committee, alleging a failure to enforce the requirements and covenants
contained in the declaration regarding landscaping duties. The trial court dismissed the claim
against the architectural committee members on the ground that it could not substitute its judgment
for the judgment of the architectural committee as to what constituted “landscaping” under the
terms of the declaration.
72
The trial court also awarded attorneys’ fees to the defending committee
members, which was reversed by the appellate court.
73
Some covenants will expressly prohibit
actions against an architectural committee by disgruntled owners. Courts that have considered such
provisions have upheld them and dismissed lawsuits against committee members for wrongful
approval; others have found such exculpatory provisions unenforceable.
74

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/20/2022 6:02 PM

I am not, by any means, on an ARC search for a power trip. In fact, out of frustration in regards to the lack of respect toward the ARC from the BOD, I am running for the BOD,

that's one sure way to change things, lol. You might not think you are on a power trip but the action you propose are exactly what people on a power trip woudl do. just saying.

vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/21/2022 1:01 AM
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/20/2022 6:02 PM

I am not, by any means, on an ARC search for a power trip. In fact, out of frustration in regards to the lack of respect toward the ARC from the BOD, I am running for the BOD,


that's one sure way to change things, lol. You might not think you are on a power trip but the action you propose are exactly what people on a power trip woudl do. just saying.

Respect goes both ways, as does - unfortunately - disrespect.

What often happens is that the activist does get elected to the board - and then they find themselves on the receiving end of behavior they'd previously dished out. It's an eye-opening and often painful experience. The schadenfreude crowd gets a kick out of it, though, especially if a homeowner has fomented revolution and then the revolutionaries continue to revolt while dear-leader-now-director tries to control the mess they've made...

Authority and accountability go hand in hand. The board members are the ones held accountable for what happens on their watch - they're the ones who can be sued if things go wrong. That's why they have the final say. If the laws made the board legally accountable for the actions of others that the board has no control over, nobody in their right mind would volunteer to be a director.
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I can assure you that my concerns, and willingness to volunteer many hours of my time, are based only on the desire to maintain the quality of our community.

I am not exact sure what you are meaning the 'action you propose'? Exactly what 'actions' are you speaking of? Volunteering to serve on the BOD?

I feel strongly that the current BOD are outside of their area of authority and are making decisions that will be detrimental to the community. As a resident aware of the history of the community and the current ARC chairperson, I would feel negligent if I were to sit back and not make every effort to protect the value of, not only my property, but my neighbors, as well.
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I have been nothing but cordial and respectful to this BOD and every other BOD that I have dealt with that have been very supportive of the ARC. Why would I not be? They are my neighbors. I am currently leading a committee that only has the best for the neighbhorhood at the crux of all of our decisions.

I am not an 'activisit' nor do not live my life by 'dishing out' behavior. I think that if the current BOD had to deal with the 'painful experiences' that the ARC has dealt with, directly, they would have their 'eyes-opened'. We are functioning now as the ARC has functioned the entire history of the community, however the current BOD cannot state that.

In our community the BOD and the ARC, as the two entities that the ByLaws and Covenants task with the decisions of the community should, beyond a shadow of a doubt, work as a TEAM with mutual respect and open communication. I have tried very hard to acheive this with this board but they have no interest.

Several BOD members have taken action, directly against the specifics in the ARC Guidelines and have completed improvement projects, without the required prior written approval from the ARC (per the covenants). That places the ARC in a very difficult position. Our community requires the ARC chairperson to sign the submittals, as approved or denied, and maintain those in the property's files. There is no option for a BOD member to sign the ARC submittals. Our covenants are clear that no project is to begin without 'prior written approval from the ARC'. I have several submittals that do not contain correct/accurate information (from BOD members) and I do not feel it ethical to sign these, as they are directly against our guidelines. One BOD member when called out for this project literallly stated, "what would stop me or any other homeowner from doing what we want to do, ask for forgiveness rather than permission?" If this is the case then why should the ARC waste our time, "reviewing approving suggestion changes to, and rejecting plans and specifications for such improvements"?

As a member of the ARC, I feel that I should exceed the requirements of maintaing my property within the expectations of the covenants and the guidelines. The message that the BOD is sending to the community will possibly be very detrimental to this community over time, if homeowners just start doing what they want to do. In addition, we have paid HOA dues for 16 years. We feel that this owes us some protection from actions that are outside of those stated in the Restrictive Covenanst that are literally tied to the very deed of our property.

From an accountability perspective, I can assure you that the ARC is questioned more often, from residents, asking about ARC decisions that the BOD are. We are held responsible for the above mentioned unapproved projects of the BOD members even.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/21/2022 6:34 AM

From an accountability perspective, I can assure you that the ARC is questioned more often, from residents, asking about ARC decisions that the BOD are. We are held responsible for the above mentioned unapproved projects of the BOD members even.

fun fact of the day! #1 reason HOA boards are sued is what? ARC issues!

so back to the question..... does your ARC allow for variances? if so you have no leg to stand on. the BOD can decide on a variance and you are SOL. If you dont' believe me refer to the legal text I previously posted.
There is a really good legal book from NC bar you can get an online copy for around $60 well worth the money. probabaly better to buy that and use real world case law then your opinion , good luck.

vis ta vie
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thank you for the information. It is very helpful.

What if the committee
deviates from architectural guidelines in approving an improvement? Or what if the committee
fails to respond in the requisite number of days to an application that is otherwise objectionable
and inconsistent with the plan and scheme of development?
Our guidelines state that, "Prior approvals DO NOT set new standards; and any issues of non- compliance for an installation or construction whether by ARC oversight or specific grant of exception to the Guidelines by the ARC do not set a precedent for future submittals."
Our covenants allow 45 days to respond but is clear that, without a reply, the project can commence but must meet the guidelines and the covenants expectations.

We are constanlty asked if our decisions would 'hold up in court'. As members of the ARC, with extensive knowledge of our community's history, ARC parameters and the reasons for most of those parameters, none of us are lawyers but we all understand the reasoning for our decisions. Many of these decisions which are unanimous, among the 5 appointed members of the committee.

We have, mainly new property owners that simply want what they want, without any regards to the fact that all other residents have followed the stated rules/guidelines. My constant comment has been, we cannot make decisions for those that wish for an approval for something unprecedented or with to be granted the first variance regarding a standard guideline, for fear of litigation. We feel our first 'allegiance' is to the existing homeowners, with the thought that they could easily be litigious, just as you pointed out.

We currently have a situation where a property owner wanted a white house but was denied the request because there is a white house beside them. The understood and chose another color. Now we have a new propoerty owner, down the street, that has been consistently beligerent, threatening and insistent that they want a white house and has submitted the same color for the 4th time (denied each time). If this owner is allowed a white house, the first property owner could easily sue for lack of consistency in decisions, rightfully so, I would think. If the BOD steps in and fears litigation from the second homeowner and overrules the ARCs decision, without asking for or considering the history, the ARC takes the brunt of the complaints from the first homeowner denied a white house and would be called out and questioned regarding the reasons for a lawsuit.

There are obviously a lot of working parts to this situation and I am just trying to work through what some of our opinoins are in being considerate of everyone involved.

Thank you again for your thoughtful and informative comments.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
"Without any consultation with the ARC, they have recently called several community meetings regarding ARC Guidelines, put several items out to the entire community, regarding ARC things that the covenants state are ARC responsiblities, for a community vote. They state they want to change many things in the Guidelines that are in the covenants (that change would require a 2/3 vote of the community). All members of the ARC feel they are exceeding their authority in being involved and trying to dictate the parameters of the ARCs guidelines for certain home improvement projects. In fact many people in the community are worried about the direction that the community is heading."

Correct me if I'm wrong but the quote above seems to be what has you bothered the most. From my perspective, I give the Board high marks for calling several community meetings and soliciting feedback on the ARC guidelines. I also see absolutely nothing wrong with them asking for a vote on any change that they may want to propose even if it completely changes the roll of the ARC committee in a way that you absolutely hate. You have the right to rally the troops and try and get the community to vote down the proposed changes. If you lose then so be it and you need to accept it.

On a personal note, I sense in your replies that you are hung up on "that's the way it's always been done" and if you are not open to change you may find being a Board member very hard to swallow.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/21/2022 7:06 AM
Thank you for the information. It is very helpful.

What if the committee
deviates from architectural guidelines in approving an improvement? Or what if the committee
fails to respond in the requisite number of days to an application that is otherwise objectionable
and inconsistent with the plan and scheme of development?

See legal text below in regards to your first questions
2nd question, the answer is easy. the HOA/ARC's inability to meet the deadline means the home owner can do whatever they want.

Advice. If you want to limit your HOA"s legal liability dont' get into arguments on how many homes can be paitned white. freel free to disagree or ignore my opinions.

§ 15.05.02. Rejection of Plans That Depart From Plan and Scheme of
Development

It is axiomatic that if the architectural committee’s decision can be made based on
the plan and scheme of development, then the committee may reject plans that are inconsistent with
a plan and scheme of development. In Smith v. Butler Mountain Estates Property Owners Ass’n, 90
N.C. App. 40, 367 S.E.2d 401 (N.C. App. 1988), an owner sued his association when the association
failed to approve of the owner’s proposed home. In Smith, the owner applied to construct a home
with an “irregular domed roofline and geodesic decision,” but all other roofs in the community had
conventional horizontal rooflines.
36
The owner’s case was dismissed and, on appeal, the Court of
Appeals affirmed the dismissal, noting that the home proposed by the owner represented a “marked
departure” from the home-building styles in the area.
37
The case reached the Supreme Court, which
determined that the house also did not meet the minimum square footage set out in the covenants
and, therefore, the home could be rejected on this (more objective) basis too.
38

In earlier cases, whether an improvement was consistent with the “plan and scheme
of development” could not always be made summarily by judges. In Christopher Properties v.
Postell, 106 N.C. App. 180, 415 S.E.2d 786 (N.C. App. 1992), the Court of Appeals reversed a
trial court’s granting of summary judgment in favor of an owner who had been sued by a developer
after installing a pool and deck on a lot without first obtaining approval. In Postell, the trial court
dismissed the developer’s complaint, but the Court of Appeals reversed, holding there was a
material issue of fact as to whether the pool and deck were consistent with the plan and scheme
of development. The Court of Appeals rejected the trial court’s ruling and the argument advanced
by the owners on appeal that the architectural committee’s pre-approval requirement was void
as a matter of law.
39
However, the Court of Appeals in Postell did find that there were “material
issues of fact” as to whether the pool and deck were consistent with the plan and scheme of
development.
40
The Court of Appeals determined that material issues of fact existed where the
developer submitted three affidavits stating the pool would decrease the value of the other lots
and was inconsistent with the plan and scheme of development.
41
This was apparently sufficient to
create an issue of fact in Postell.

Most architectural committee decisions are subjective. However, this does not mean
that all decisions made must lead to a material issue of fact that a jury must decide. Indeed, several
trial and appellate courts since Postell have ruled on architectural committee decisions as a matter
of law where no showing of arbitrariness or bad faith is present.
42
In other states where an owner
has asked for summary judgment in its favor and against the association based on architectural
committee’s decision, such requests have been denied.
43
In cases since Postell, courts in North
Carolina have wisely tended to steer away from second guessing architectural committees’
necessarily subjective decisions and have instead disposed of such cases summarily without trial.
Absent compelling circumstances where a fact finder could find arbitrariness or bad faith based
on the evidence presented, in most cases architectural committee decisions should be affirmed and
enforced summarily by judges.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
§ 15.06. The Raintree Decision
In 1995, our NC Supreme Court affirmed an architectural committee’s power to accept or reject
building proposals provided such decisions are not made arbitrarily and are made in good faith.
44

The decision refined the standards set out in Boiling Spring and introduced additional keys words
such as “arbitrariness” and “bad faith” to the lexicon of architectural committee decision-making.
The owners in Raintree were sued when the architectural committee for their community rejected
their vinyl siding application and they still continued to install the vinyl siding. The trial court
denied the association’s motion for summary judgment in their action for injunctive relief and
the case went to the jury, which decided in favor of the owners. On appeal, the Court of Appeals
affirmed the verdict below; however, Justice Frye, writing for a unanimous Supreme Court,
overturned the Court of Appeals and the trial court, holding that the defendants had failed to show
that the architectural committee had acted arbitrarily or in bad faith.
45

The owners in Raintree attempted to argue that the plaintiffs were “closed-minded”
because the architectural committee had rejected other vinyl siding applications in the past and the
committee had “made up its mind” before it had ever seen the owner’s application. The owners
introduced photographs that showed that vinyl siding looked like wood and also introduced other
evidence tending to show that the vinyl siding was of good quality and was not objected to by
neighbors.
46
Such evidence, however, was insufficient to create a material issue of fact for trial in
the Supreme Court’s opinion. In rejecting the owner’s arguments, the Supreme Court stated, “this
evidence is not sufficient to show the plaintiff acted arbitrarily or in bad faith.”
47
To the contrary,
the Raintree Court found the actions of the architectural committee to be reasonable and in good
faith. In Raintree, the Supreme Court stated the following:
[T]he uncontradicted evidence shows that the ARC [Architectural Review
Committee] on three occasions considered defendants’ application for vinyl siding
despite the fact that it had previously found the material unacceptable, that the
members of the ARC visited defendants’ house and looked at the vinyl siding
before making a decision, that the ARC conducted a study and found that the vinyl
siding was not appropriate for North Raintree, and that previous applications had
been rejected for that reason. The evidence also showed that the ARC consistently
found that vinyl siding was not appropriate for this section of Raintree because the
general theme of the community was a natural, contemporary style, whereas vinyl
siding conveyed a colonial or traditional style.
48
The
Raintree case is the modern standard by which all architectural committees are judged.
The key concepts behind such decisions are “good faith” and “arbitrary and capricious.” The
committee’s decision must be made in good faith and must not be arbitrary or capricious. “Good
faith” is characterized as “an honest belief, the absence of malice and the absence of design to
defraud or to seek unconscionable advantage . . . .”
49
“Arbitrary” is defined as “an unreasonable
manner, as fixed or done capriciously or at pleasure.”
50
In short, if a committee’s decision is not
arbitrary and capricious and is not made in bad faith, it will be affirmed, regardless of whether and
how vehemently the applicant disagrees with it. Inevitably, owners will argue that a committee’s
decision denying its proposal is arbitrary, but so long as the committee’s decision is even subjectively

vis ta vie
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
In cases regarding setbacks, the covenants grant the ARC the authority to offer variances. We rarely do, unless there is an environmental consideration or a hardship (like a cul de sac lot).
There are different SF requirements for the various phases. We have a little leeway for the minimum in one phase that we have used once.
BUA is different as well. This cannot be exceeds as this is designated and regulated by the State. This current board does not understand the importance of this. Our PM rep has had another community that has been audited. Their experience is that it is the ARC that has to present and defend the records and the approvals of properties that exceed the alloted BUA. The BOD may be the end 'responsibly party' but the ARC is the entity that signs the approvals, not the BOD.

We have had several submittlas for homes that would not have fit into the community, architecturally. The analysis and vote was unanimous among the ARC committee to deny. We rarely have to fall back on this statement, but the covnenats state that, "The Committee's refusal to approve any such plans, location or specification may be based by the Committee upon any ground, including purely aesthetic and environmental considerations, that it, in its sole and uncontrolled discretion, shall deem sufficient." We are usually able to provide more specific feedback regarding reasons for the denial but I am aware of at least one case that this was the response (I was not the chair at the time).
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
We have recently had a very beligerent new owner in the process of a new build. He was literally threatening in messages to both me and the PM rep. He requested a large project (prefab shed) that has never been approved and a fence placement that has never been approved. We followed the historic precedence, which is clearly stated in the Guidelines, and denied his fence request, but approved it for the placement that followed the specifics in the guidelines. His foundation was approved to be one material, another was applied. When he was sent a reminder letter to either submit a change request or apply the approved finish he state that, given all of the above scenarios we were being 'arbitraty and capricious'.

I have never known the ARC to make any decision that would fall under the definition of 'arbitrary' or 'capricious', during my years on the committee or not. The committee always works to try to be unstanding but fair and consistent and takes the decisions seriously, as they should be.
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
This is an established community that has a new phase, with 63 new lots, in addition. The Declarant wishes to maintain the same aesthetics of the existing community throughout the new phase. The ARC is dedicated to doing that in keeping up with new building materials.

We are a community of 'traditional' homes. The fact is that there are well over 150 homes and property owners that have followed the standards and expectations of the current guidelines and the covenants. The new propoerty owners don't want to follow the same rules that have applied throughout the entire neighborhood. Our property values have increases significantly recently and in many cases, the new property owners feel as if the rules shouldn't apply to them because the property prices have increased and they paid more than other homeowners for their properties. I have literally had a property owner that wanted a variance and was not no state that they should be allowed to do 'X' because they paid $xxx,xxx for their lot and their neighbhor only paid $xx,xxx.

The BOD and the ARC both have responsibilities to continue the consistent guidelines that have lead our community to be the beautiful community that it is. That is not being hung up on doing things 'the way it's always been done', from a negative perspective, it is an acknowledgment that the decisions the ARC is making are mainly permanent and should remain consistent throughout the community. Furthermore, it is not a fair situation if one homeowner is allowed to do something that another homeowner hasn't been allowed to do. If it is not broken, why fix it?

I am very open to changes in the decisions the BOD are responsible for, like changing the landscaping, updating infrastructure, adding socail events, etc.

The BOD and the ARC should be working as a team and present a united front with the decisions, made consistently and in good faith, with the best interests of the community in mind. The current BODs actions do not present this unity, and actually, by taking actions that are very outside of their normal duties (as has been viewed by our community) is the exact opposite and will be detrimental to the community and has already left many homeowners very frustrated. Many feel that what they agreed to (the covenants and ARC guidelines), when they purchased their properties are not being responsibly followed and the BOD is being negligent.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/21/2022 8:31 AM

The BOD and the ARC should be working as a team and present a united front with the decisions, made consistently and in good faith, with the best interests of the community in mind.

My HOA docs state the ARC works at the pleasure of the BOD and the BOD can fire the ARC members for any reason. tread carefully if yours say the same.

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I actually like what Texas did in the authority they gave their ARC. The ARC has final say, but a homeowner can appeal to the Board. No board members or family members may not serve on the ARC.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 11/21/2022 11:06 AM
I actually like what Texas did in the authority they gave their ARC. The ARC has final say, but a homeowner can appeal to the Board. No board members or family members may not serve on the ARC.

If a homeowner is outraged because he can't put up a chain link fence and sues, who gets sued: the board, the AC, or both?
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/21/2022 11:33 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 11/21/2022 11:06 AM
I actually like what Texas did in the authority they gave their ARC. The ARC has final say, but a homeowner can appeal to the Board. No board members or family members may not serve on the ARC.


If a homeowner is outraged because he can't put up a chain link fence and sues, who gets sued: the board, the AC, or both?

They sue the Association.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/21/2022 8:31 AM
If it is not broken, why fix it?

get a 2/3rd vote and change what needs changed IMHO.

vis ta vie
ManiaC
Posts: 6
Posted:
..... performing all obligations and responsibilities the Restrictive Covenants impose on the Committee.


Neither the ACC nor the BOD can impose any restriction(s) or rules re: private property not addressed within the CCRs.
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I totally support this comment. There was one amendment (major change) to our covenants several years ago. We can't even get a quorum to send/bring in their votes for the BOD members, it will takes feet on the ground to get a 2/3 vote, that is for sure. It isn't that the current ARC has an issue. nor should we, if the majority of the homeowners really want to change something, it is the lack of team work and the seemingly subversive methods of the BOD that are a major concern. If I am elected to the BOD I hope to change that. If there are rules (and there are), the expectation should be that they apply to everyone, equally.

Thanks for everyone's information and comments.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/22/2022 2:26 PM
There was one amendment (major change) to our covenants several years ago. We can't even get a quorum to send/bring in their votes for the BOD members, it will takes feet on the ground to get a 2/3 vote, that is for sure.

then change the documents so you only need 40% or 50%. Under the NC PCA that is doable if the entire development is residential. if it is mixed residential/commercial then you are stuck with 2/3 rule.

then the next time you won't need boots on the ground. I know easier said then done, but makes future changes easier.

vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/23/2022 5:13 AM
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/22/2022 2:26 PM
There was one amendment (major change) to our covenants several years ago. We can't even get a quorum to send/bring in their votes for the BOD members, it will takes feet on the ground to get a 2/3 vote, that is for sure.


then change the documents so you only need 40% or 50%. Under the NC PCA that is doable if the entire development is residential. if it is mixed residential/commercial then you are stuck with 2/3 rule.

then the next time you won't need boots on the ground. I know easier said then done, but makes future changes easier.

If homeowners are that apathetic, they may not have the necessary votes to change the percentage - it's not something the board can do.

We've had discussions here in the past about changing CC&Rs. Lawmakers set the bar high for a reason. Once you're at 40% or 50%, you've set the stage for a determined minority of homeowners to control things. Making it easier to change things sounds like a great idea when you support a particular change - but it looks less appealing when it's a change you don't like.

My community requires 75% approval, and we were able to pass amendments without any trouble. And we're plenty apathetic. The trick is having amendments that homeowners think are important and that have broad support. I can totally see a community not getting excited over something that's mostly cosmetic or that seems to be working just fine already.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Ter

If your concern is a new section can you not get the Declarant to enforce? Also is your association under owner control?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/23/2022 8:56 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/23/2022 5:13 AM
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/22/2022 2:26 PM
There was one amendment (major change) to our covenants several years ago. We can't even get a quorum to send/bring in their votes for the BOD members, it will takes feet on the ground to get a 2/3 vote, that is for sure.


then change the documents so you only need 40% or 50%. Under the NC PCA that is doable if the entire development is residential. if it is mixed residential/commercial then you are stuck with 2/3 rule.

then the next time you won't need boots on the ground. I know easier said then done, but makes future changes easier.


If homeowners are that apathetic, they may not have the necessary votes to change the percentage - it's not something the board can do.

We've had discussions here in the past about changing CC&Rs. Lawmakers set the bar high for a reason. Once you're at 40% or 50%, you've set the stage for a determined minority of homeowners to control things. Making it easier to change things sounds like a great idea when you support a particular change - but it looks less appealing when it's a change you don't like.

My community requires 75% approval, and we were able to pass amendments without any trouble. And we're plenty apathetic. The trick is having amendments that homeowners think are important and that have broad support. I can totally see a community not getting excited over something that's mostly cosmetic or that seems to be working just fine already.

awesome for your community. Lawmakers set the bar high because they want to give kick backs to the HOA insdustry that pays to help get them elected, not for any other nobel reason. Most communities are able to easily pass amendements with a 75% super majority requirement. Want proof requiring a supermajority makes for gridlock and poor governance? just look at the USA senate. A determined minority of homeowners is some how a bad thing?

HA HA. Most HOA's are already run by a determined minority of homeowners aka the HOA board. The rules make it difficult to kick them out. Want proof, look at the mob that controlled the GA HOA for years and are still using the HOA money to pay lawyers to defend their crooked deeds. You think their hoa docs are somehow special and defective and that is what allowed them to terrorize their neighborhood? No their documents are just like most HOA's and this kind of horror can happen pretty much anywhere.


vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Most communities are *not* able to easily pass amendements with a 75% super majority requirement. is what I meant to type

vis ta vie
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
I finished the book War and Peace faster than reding this chain of info.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 11:12 AM
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.

in reality has the opposite effect. small group of crazies rule with impunity because it's so hard to get rid of them.

vis ta vie
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 2:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 11:12 AM
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.


in reality has the opposite effect. small group of crazies rule with impunity because it's so hard to get rid of them.

In a former HOA it took a dedicated group over two years to get rid of the crazies. Two years of going door to door, setting up information tables at entrances, etc. I assure you it can be done but it takes more effort/work other then bytching on a Internet site.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 3:45 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 2:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 11:12 AM
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.


in reality has the opposite effect. small group of crazies rule with impunity because it's so hard to get rid of them.


In a former HOA it took a dedicated group over two years to get rid of the crazies. Two years of going door to door, setting up information tables at entrances, etc. I assure you it can be done but it takes more effort/work other then bytching on a Internet site.

two years? I think you just proved my point. why should it take 2 years to get rid of crazies, especially if the crazies were just appointed instead of voted in which is so often the case. I assure you the reason our HOA is going to change the rules is to avoid examples like you just gave, which apparently is very common, and not a reason or logical in anyway.

vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 5:47 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 3:45 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 2:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 11:12 AM
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.


in reality has the opposite effect. small group of crazies rule with impunity because it's so hard to get rid of them.


In a former HOA it took a dedicated group over two years to get rid of the crazies. Two years of going door to door, setting up information tables at entrances, etc. I assure you it can be done but it takes more effort/work other then bytching on a Internet site.


two years? I think you just proved my point. why should it take 2 years to get rid of crazies, especially if the crazies were just appointed instead of voted in which is so often the case. I assure you the reason our HOA is going to change the rules is to avoid examples like you just gave, which apparently is very common, and not a reason or logical in anyway.

What you're overlooking is that the same rules that make it easy to get rid of crazies also make it easy for determined crazies to get rid of sane boards and reverse any changes they made. Is that what you want? Because that's what you'll get if you make it easy for a minority to change things to suit themselves. Instability isn't good for any organization.

To paraphrase the quote about freedom, the price of a well-run association is constant vigilance, along with occasionally rolling up your sleeves and doing some of the heavy lifting yourself. Two years is nothing in the life of a community. Of course many homeowners can't be bothered - which makes them lousy business partners and my main beef with community associations in general.

For most folks, the equity in their homes is the bulk of their net worth. Would I want my net worth affected by business partners who can't be bothered? No. No, I would not. And I expect anyone with a decent amount of financial savvy would avoid an unstable HOA like the plague - they have the bucks to go elsewhere and leave troubled HOAs in the hands of those who don't know what they're doing.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/25/2022 5:22 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 5:47 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 3:45 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 2:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 11:12 AM
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.


in reality has the opposite effect. small group of crazies rule with impunity because it's so hard to get rid of them.


In a former HOA it took a dedicated group over two years to get rid of the crazies. Two years of going door to door, setting up information tables at entrances, etc. I assure you it can be done but it takes more effort/work other then bytching on a Internet site.


two years? I think you just proved my point. why should it take 2 years to get rid of crazies, especially if the crazies were just appointed instead of voted in which is so often the case. I assure you the reason our HOA is going to change the rules is to avoid examples like you just gave, which apparently is very common, and not a reason or logical in anyway.


What you're overlooking is that the same rules that make it easy to get rid of crazies also make it easy for determined crazies to get rid of sane boards and reverse any changes they made. Is that what you want? Because that's what you'll get if you make it easy for a minority to change things to suit themselves. Instability isn't good for any organization.

To paraphrase the quote about freedom, the price of a well-run association is constant vigilance, along with occasionally rolling up your sleeves and doing some of the heavy lifting yourself. Two years is nothing in the life of a community. Of course many homeowners can't be bothered - which makes them lousy business partners and my main beef with community associations in general.

For most folks, the equity in their homes is the bulk of their net worth. Would I want my net worth affected by business partners who can't be bothered? No. No, I would not. And I expect anyone with a decent amount of financial savvy would avoid an unstable HOA like the plague - they have the bucks to go elsewhere and leave troubled HOAs in the hands of those who don't know what they're doing.

Show me one news article illustrating your above point. I'll show you 100 news stories about hoa disasters caused by crazies that couldn't be removed fast enough. Best one was over an Obama sign that literally bankrupted the HOA. Your advice is not grounded in reality and history. You just throw out ridiculous hypothetical that never occur.

vis ta vie
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/25/2022 5:22 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 5:47 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 3:45 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 2:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 11:12 AM
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.


in reality has the opposite effect. small group of crazies rule with impunity because it's so hard to get rid of them.


In a former HOA it took a dedicated group over two years to get rid of the crazies. Two years of going door to door, setting up information tables at entrances, etc. I assure you it can be done but it takes more effort/work other then bytching on a Internet site.


two years? I think you just proved my point. why should it take 2 years to get rid of crazies, especially if the crazies were just appointed instead of voted in which is so often the case. I assure you the reason our HOA is going to change the rules is to avoid examples like you just gave, which apparently is very common, and not a reason or logical in anyway.


What you're overlooking is that the same rules that make it easy to get rid of crazies also make it easy for determined crazies to get rid of sane boards and reverse any changes they made. Is that what you want? Because that's what you'll get if you make it easy for a minority to change things to suit themselves. Instability isn't good for any organization.

To paraphrase the quote about freedom, the price of a well-run association is constant vigilance, along with occasionally rolling up your sleeves and doing some of the heavy lifting yourself. Two years is nothing in the life of a community. Of course many homeowners can't be bothered - which makes them lousy business partners and my main beef with community associations in general.

For most folks, the equity in their homes is the bulk of their net worth. Would I want my net worth affected by business partners who can't be bothered? No. No, I would not. And I expect anyone with a decent amount of financial savvy would avoid an unstable HOA like the plague - they have the bucks to go elsewhere and leave troubled HOAs in the hands of those who don't know what they're doing.


Well said especially about the danger of a minority being able to change things to suit themselves.
TeresaK2 (North Carolina)
Posts: 10
Posted:
There is some question as to whether the declarant is still the declarant for the first phases. He definitely is for the new phase. The Association is under owner control and has been for 14 years, this does include the new phase, even thought technically the declarant has not turned over this phase to the community.

He does have many votes per lot and he could shut this entire thing down, with just those votes. I have been in contact with him and he is hesitant to get involved. There are less than a dozen lots left for him to sell, and at this point, he just wants to get done and move on to other projects. He is very proud of this community (as he should be) and has stated that he is very pleased with the way the ARC has been functioning and our decisions. Future decisions, regarding new builds could directly affect his ability to sell the remaining lots. In a worse case scenario, I can go to him and appeal to his desire to maintain the scheme of the development as it is now. He could easily step in and make his desires known, in which case, the board, currently, would have no choice but to follow his wishes. This is our last ditch plan, if all else fails.

I will not allow this board to appreciable change the way the ARC has always functioned without a fight. This board consists of all new residents and they do not understand the time, effort, and commitment that many people have invested over many years to make this the community what it is now. The board members are all quick to state how beautiful the houses and the neighbhorhood is, but don't see the connection between the ARCs decision and the current situation. Go figure........
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/27/2022 9:30 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/25/2022 5:22 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 5:47 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 3:45 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/24/2022 2:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/24/2022 11:12 AM
Wendy

The reason for setting the bar so high is to prevent a small group of "crazies" changing Covenants/Bylaws.


in reality has the opposite effect. small group of crazies rule with impunity because it's so hard to get rid of them.


In a former HOA it took a dedicated group over two years to get rid of the crazies. Two years of going door to door, setting up information tables at entrances, etc. I assure you it can be done but it takes more effort/work other then bytching on a Internet site.


two years? I think you just proved my point. why should it take 2 years to get rid of crazies, especially if the crazies were just appointed instead of voted in which is so often the case. I assure you the reason our HOA is going to change the rules is to avoid examples like you just gave, which apparently is very common, and not a reason or logical in anyway.


What you're overlooking is that the same rules that make it easy to get rid of crazies also make it easy for determined crazies to get rid of sane boards and reverse any changes they made. Is that what you want? Because that's what you'll get if you make it easy for a minority to change things to suit themselves. Instability isn't good for any organization.

To paraphrase the quote about freedom, the price of a well-run association is constant vigilance, along with occasionally rolling up your sleeves and doing some of the heavy lifting yourself. Two years is nothing in the life of a community. Of course many homeowners can't be bothered - which makes them lousy business partners and my main beef with community associations in general.

For most folks, the equity in their homes is the bulk of their net worth. Would I want my net worth affected by business partners who can't be bothered? No. No, I would not. And I expect anyone with a decent amount of financial savvy would avoid an unstable HOA like the plague - they have the bucks to go elsewhere and leave troubled HOAs in the hands of those who don't know what they're doing.



Well said especially about the danger of a minority being able to change things to suit themselves.

this is so self serving it's laughable. almost every single HOA complaint is the result of a minority board pushing their agenda on the rest of the community. If the majority of HOA's didn't have ridiculous supermajorities to make changes it would be a good thing, not a bad thing. and last time I checked over 50% is a majority not a minority. What kind of bizarro math do you use?

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaK2 on 11/27/2022 11:05 AM
He could easily step in and make his desires known, in which case, the board, currently, would have no choice but to follow his wishes. This is our last ditch plan, if all else fails. .

The board can get enough votes to overrule him. Sorry but I bet the vast majority of owners could care less how many homes are paitned white. I bet if everyone voted you'd be in a super minority.

vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/26/2022 8:47 PM
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/25/2022 5:22 AM

... snip ...

What you're overlooking is that the same rules that make it easy to get rid of crazies also make it easy for determined crazies to get rid of sane boards and reverse any changes they made. Is that what you want? Because that's what you'll get if you make it easy for a minority to change things to suit themselves. Instability isn't good for any organization.

To paraphrase the quote about freedom, the price of a well-run association is constant vigilance, along with occasionally rolling up your sleeves and doing some of the heavy lifting yourself. Two years is nothing in the life of a community. Of course many homeowners can't be bothered - which makes them lousy business partners and my main beef with community associations in general.

For most folks, the equity in their homes is the bulk of their net worth. Would I want my net worth affected by business partners who can't be bothered? No. No, I would not. And I expect anyone with a decent amount of financial savvy would avoid an unstable HOA like the plague - they have the bucks to go elsewhere and leave troubled HOAs in the hands of those who don't know what they're doing.


Show me one news article illustrating your above point. I'll show you 100 news stories about hoa disasters caused by crazies that couldn't be removed fast enough. Best one was over an Obama sign that literally bankrupted the HOA. Your advice is not grounded in reality and history. You just throw out ridiculous hypothetical that never occur.

You need to consume media with a more skeptical eye.

The whole point of media is to make money via clicks. "Oh, Those Awful HOAs" is a popular theme - and the more lurid story, the better. If a building falls down, that's gold (except for the victims of the tragedy). That's what grabs eyeballs. JohnC46's story of owners working patiently for two years to remove a bad board or others' stories of communities humming along just fine won't appear anywhere, because who pays money to read that?

Here's another rule of HOAa life: no owners think they're the crazies. It's always Those Idiots in Charge, never mind that the idiots in charge seem to rotate in and out with some frequency. You'll never read a story about a homeowner saying, "boy, was I wrong".

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/27/2022 12:27 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/26/2022 8:47 PM
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/25/2022 5:22 AM

... snip ...

What you're overlooking is that the same rules that make it easy to get rid of crazies also make it easy for determined crazies to get rid of sane boards and reverse any changes they made. Is that what you want? Because that's what you'll get if you make it easy for a minority to change things to suit themselves. Instability isn't good for any organization.

To paraphrase the quote about freedom, the price of a well-run association is constant vigilance, along with occasionally rolling up your sleeves and doing some of the heavy lifting yourself. Two years is nothing in the life of a community. Of course many homeowners can't be bothered - which makes them lousy business partners and my main beef with community associations in general.

For most folks, the equity in their homes is the bulk of their net worth. Would I want my net worth affected by business partners who can't be bothered? No. No, I would not. And I expect anyone with a decent amount of financial savvy would avoid an unstable HOA like the plague - they have the bucks to go elsewhere and leave troubled HOAs in the hands of those who don't know what they're doing.


Show me one news article illustrating your above point. I'll show you 100 news stories about hoa disasters caused by crazies that couldn't be removed fast enough. Best one was over an Obama sign that literally bankrupted the HOA. Your advice is not grounded in reality and history. You just throw out ridiculous hypothetical that never occur.


You need to consume media with a more skeptical eye.

The whole point of media is to make money via clicks. "Oh, Those Awful HOAs" is a popular theme - and the more lurid story, the better. If a building falls down, that's gold (except for the victims of the tragedy). That's what grabs eyeballs. JohnC46's story of owners working patiently for two years to remove a bad board or others' stories of communities humming along just fine won't appear anywhere, because who pays money to read that?

Here's another rule of HOAa life: no owners think they're the crazies. It's always Those Idiots in Charge, never mind that the idiots in charge seem to rotate in and out with some frequency. You'll never read a story about a homeowner saying, "boy, was I wrong".

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there.


I get it trust what you say not what the media says, lol. or in other words you can't provide a single story from the media or even this board where an HOA got rid of super majority requirements for changes and that latter on was a problem for the HOA. right. you can't come up with one example. but I can come up with hundreds.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Wendy,

The issue with the political sign was not just about that sign.
Trust me, I lived in the area (not in that HOA) and got a lot more info then what made the national news.

The main issue is most members of HOAs are apathetic.
That is to say, if the issues are not affecting them directly, then do what you want.
Heck, I used to be one of those.

If people are unwilling to serve, then those who are willing will be the ones making the decisions for the community.

It's always good to trust but verify.

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