When are Bylaws distributed?

Started by JudyrosellaE • 35 replies • 348 views

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JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Greetings,

I am embarrassed to admit that I have lived in this townhouse since 2018 and finally realized I never received a copy of the Bylaws.

I live in Illinois and it is true that a copy can be downloaded, for free, via the internet from the County Recorder's office. But, I didn't know that until now.

The Board president was not happy with me when I told him I had downloaded Bylaws from the County Recorder's website. He had no idea they were public information. But, I asked for a copy a few weeks ago and the Board didn't even know who had a copy! They finally gave me the original 1996 Bylaws, no Amendments (I downloaded them though).

The courthouse tells me they can't find a copy of the CC&R's, even though the property has been here since 1996. The Recorders Office also said CC&Rs are not always filed, in this county. So, I'll let that go, even though I would really like to see them.

I saw an online loan sign claiming that they should be presented to a new buyer at closing. Another site says the new buyer should even sign a form confirming that they have received the bylaws, and agree to abide by them.

Normally, how and when do new buyers receive a copy of the Bylaws?

Is there a law, or even a standard, for making sure new residents have a copy of the Bylaws, anyway? How do residents even know what the Bylaws are, if they don't receive a copy?

Judy

PS. Guess who is running for a Board seat, now? ;)

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

The Illinois Condo statute and the Illinois Common Interest Community Association statute both require that sellers provide prospective buyers with a copy of the declaration (a.k.a. CC&Rs), bylaws and more, upon demand by the buyer.

If I were a realtor, I would certainly make sure my client asked for and obtained a copy of the declaration and bylaws. Are you sure the declaration and bylaws are not among your 2018 closing documents? If they are not, call your realtor and see what he/she says.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Thanks for your reply, AugustinD.

I have looked and looked. We bought in 2008. Even the board couldn't find a copy. So I downloaded one from the county Records Office. Now I have proof that the Board has been talking off the top of their head. They don't know what they Bylaws say either.

Yet, they don't hesitate to say, "The Bylaws say...."

Ah. "Upon demand." Very interesting.

Do HOA's ever ask that buyers sign anything, acknowledging receipt? Or is that just wishful thinking?

Judy

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Your CC&Rs (aka declaration, covenants) are much more important to your life in your HOA than are your Bylaws. Bylaws show you how election work and how many directors your HOA should have and some materials about board meetings.

Your CC&Rs tell you your obligations and rights as an HOA member. And the Association's rights & obligations. They usually contain some rules, e.g. no more that two dogs are allowed. Wndow coverings facing the exterior must be white, etc. CC&Rs contain Architectural guidelines about what you need permission for to make structure changes to your home. CC&Rs tell you your aintenace obligations and the HOA's obligations.

So far as I know HOAs are not the ones to provide these documents to you, the sellers are. Aug suggested getting in touch with your realtor, but you might have better luck contacting the title company, escrow company or attorney that handled the transaction for you. The also were probably submitted to the state real estate dept when your HOA project was approved.

Wait a minutę: can you give us an example or two of when the Board seems to quote the Bylaws? What have been the general topics? Rules? Dues? What?

What size is your HOA? do you have a property manager?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 11/15/2022 7:29 PM
So far as I know HOAs are not the ones to provide these documents to you, the sellers are. Aug suggested getting in touch with your realtor, but you might have better luck contacting the title company, escrow company or attorney that handled the transaction for you. The also were probably submitted to the state real estate dept when your HOA project was approved.

Only speaking for California, but I have handled the delivery of HOA documents through the escrow process for the past 14 years. Since 2015, it has been completely automated. As an agent for the HOA, we provide all the documents required under California Civil Code, which is quite of bit of information, usually in the neighborhood of 200 pages or more. We also have to disclose to each association we manage that we handle the process of providing these important documents to a buyer through the seller on behalf of the HOA.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Don't be too embarrassed - lots of people buy homes in HOA communities and have no idea they live in one until they do something and get a nastygram about a rule violation. Or they treat the assessments like a book club fee and are shocked, shocked when they learn assessments are going up - a lot - next year.

There are some states who do require buyers to receive HOA information when they buy their home. Some people get them at closing, but might notice because you're so busy signing your life away with the mortgage (!). You might want to dig up your closing papers - they may be hidden there and you overlooked them.

Hopefully, you wind up on the board and this could become a project you can oversee - just how does your community make new owners aware of what they've bought into? Maybe the association could create some sort of acknowledgment form to be signed at closing where the homeowner agrees to comply with the CCRs, pay assessments, etc. They have to do this anyway, but signing a document can bring it home. Or you can create some sort of welcome packet with the documents. Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JudyrosellaE on 11/15/2022 7:03 PM
Do HOA's ever ask that buyers sign anything, acknowledging receipt?

Nationwide today, at some point in the closing process the buyer typically signs acknowledgment that she/he received the HOA's governing documents (CC&Rs, Bylaws et cetera) and has no objection to them. Things may have changed a lot since 2008. (You posted 2018 in your first post. Fourteen years ago vs. four years ago makes a huge difference when it comes to realtors' obligations.)

Courts forever have also simply ruled that the CC&Rs being recorded with the county served as lawful "notice" that a person's home/lot was subject to certain covenants.

I agree with trying the title company, along with the realtor or realtor's company, if the company still exists.

Bylaws can control many important aspects of HOA's operations. The courts view Bylaws and CC&Rs as contractual terms, enforceable by owners and the HOA.

Respectfully, I suggest you change your user name for this forum to something that protects your anonymity.

I think you should immediately identifying all the current governing documents for your HOA. Then identify to which Illinois HOA/COA statute your HOA is subject. Furthermore, identify if your HOA is a corporation. As a corporation, it is subject to the Illinois Nonprofit Corporation statute. These statutes have many basic requirements easily understandable to a layperson. And some not so understandable.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our MC does the same, Max. I was saying that there is no legal requirement in CA for the HOA to give the governing documents to prospective buyers or buyers. There probably isn't in IL either.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our MC does the same, Max. I observed that there is no legal requirement in CA for the HOA to give the governing documents to prospective buyers or buyers. There probably isn't in IL either.

DonnaR5
Posts: 162

Posted:

I assume you kept your closing package when you purchased the property. Did you look in the closing package?

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Thanks for your response.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Thanks for your response.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Thanks for your response.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

We looked. And looked. Not there.

DonnaR5
Posts: 162

Posted:

Time to adopt a new set of bylaws, then.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Oh, my. In my county, in Illinois, this is the response I received via email.

Our office will only have copies of the documents that were recorded with us. If a document exists but was not recorded with our office, we will not have a record of it. I’m not aware of a “formal” CC&R. The restrictions (with subsequent amendments) and the declaration of organization of the HOA should be all you need. But I would consult an attorney if you feel something is missing or wasn’t filed correctly.
Peoria County Clerk’s Office

I feel like I've opened a can of worms. Issues have been building over whether or not there is a 0' lot line. A neighbor told me a very large shrub, in front of my townhouse, was nearly dead and needed to be removed. I said that would be great. She said it was MY responsibility. I should have pursued the bylaws issue further, at that time. It escalated. The big problem is I assumed this neighbor was being truthful and knew what the bylaws say. She kept at it until she convinced me I was required to landscape 4' across the front of my townhouse, then it became 8' and over the years it has cost no small amount of money. Now she has convinced another neighbor she has to remove a TREE, at her expense ... and on it goes. As I read the bylaws--and I am no attorney--I am actually now in violation of the bylaws because I DID landscape 8' out into what now looks to be Common Area. It's done. She convinced 2 other homeowners to do the same.

My concern is to figure out what the law actually says, revise the bylaws because some are clearly outdated, and let's ALL live happily ever after. Only 2 amendments have been legally filed since 1996. The rest is heresay and the board can't even produce documents proving most of what they are telling us.

No wonder the HOA board members "decided" to dismiss the attorney on retainer. They don't understand that bylaws are LEGAL documents.

What a mess. SHEESH.

Thanks for everyone's input. This is truly fascinating.

Judy

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

California statutes require sellers to disclose the governing documents to buyers, regardless of whether the buyer makes a request. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-4525

Illinois's HOA and COA statutes require that sellers provide the governing documents only if the buyer requests them.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JudyrosellaE on 11/16/2022 12:17 PM
Oh, my. In my county, in Illinois, this is the response I received via email.

What is the title of the documents the Peoria County Clerk provided?

A lot of the problem here may be vocabulary. This forum can help get you up to speed. Though it may be a crash course. :

Quote:

I feel like I've opened a can of worms. Issues have been building over whether or not there is a 0' lot line. A neighbor told me a very large shrub, in front of my townhouse, was nearly dead and needed to be removed. I said that would be great. She said it was MY responsibility. I should have pursued the bylaws issue further, at that time. It escalated. The big problem is I assumed this neighbor was being truthful and knew what the bylaws say. She kept at it until she convinced me I was required to landscape 4' across the front of my townhouse, then it became 8' and over the years it has cost no small amount of money. Now she has convinced another neighbor she has to remove a TREE, at her expense ... and on it goes. As I read the bylaws--and I am no attorney--I am actually now in violation of the bylaws because I DID landscape 8' out into what now looks to be Common Area. It's done. She convinced 2 other homeowners to do the same.

-- It's not a can of worms, IMO. It's you learning what the HOA's legal responsibilities are and the implications of covenants/bylaws.

-- A little on vocabulary here: In some states the Bylaws contain bona fide covenants and land use restrictions and there is no Declaration per se. E.g. I know Michigan's condominiums tend to have bylaws and not CC&Rs. Some of the readers here are not going to understand why you keep referring to your HOA's bylaws having land use restrictions. These readers will say that you need to read the CC&Rs. The readers may be wrong.

-- I advise going to the Illinois Secretary of State site and searching for your HOA (corporation?) here: https://apps.ilsos.gov/corporatellc/ . Report back whether your HOA is listed as a corporation.

-- Does the Ill Secretary of State Site offer a downloadable version of the Articles of Incorporation? If so, download these, and report back. Download anything else the SoS site offers relevant to your HOA corporation.

-- Report back here a summary of what is in the Articles of Incorporation. Do the Articles of Inc refer to Bylaws? Covenants? Restrictions? A Declaration?

-- "Covenants" are a legal term of art with enormous legal power, as I mentioned above. Covenants have been around over 150 years. Disputes over covenants have been around for 150 years.

-- What I propose above is the new director's introduction to the legal structure of HOAs (assuming said new director wants to be competent, with a big picture view, at least to start).

-- Make no major moves without asking here first. Learn to separate the wheat from the chaff in the answers here.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 11/16/2022 12:02 PM
Our MC does the same, Max. I observed that there is no legal requirement in CA for the HOA to give the governing documents to prospective buyers or buyers. There probably isn't in IL either.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Escrow-Disclosures

So, maybe you can explain the link I provide from our famous law firm.

First, the attorney says the association is not party to the transaction, and has no duty to make available disclosures to the buyer, that duty duty falls to the seller.

Then, in the second paragraph, the association shall within 10 days, provide copies of the requested documents. In addition, associations are required to fill out a specific form showing an estimated cost of the documents they can provide.

While I understand that an association has no legal obligation in providing a buyer, whether in escrow or prospective, that is the obligation of the seller, but where is the seller getting the documents that are required to be disclosed to a buyer? The association, in all my years, is certainly party to the transaction, or at least should be. In 14 years, I have had 1 seller try and put all the information together themselves, that didn't go well. I have had 5 or 6 cash transactions, none going through escrow and after the sale went through all moved out within 6 months, as they didn't know what they had gotten into.

As an agent for the association, I have a fiduciary duty to make sure that a prospective buyer has all the pertinent information to start out on the right foot. Anything less, IMO, is a dereliction of duty.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Hi, KerryL1,
Thanks for your response. I do have the packet of documents the seller gave us. But it was just manuals for the mechanicals.

I will research this a bit more.

In another response, in this thread, I mentioned the landscaping issue.
The Board is blissfully unaware that they are illegally overcharging us for our Association Fees. But, get this, they are only charging us $60. It was apparently voted on around 2008, but I've never seen documentation of that. No legal document showing fees is the 1996 original Bylaws (doesn't say CC&R anywhere on it), and it says $50. At the last Board meeting, a resident suggested raising the fees to $100, since the board is always whining they don't have enough money. A member of the board responded, for all to hear, "That'll NEVER happen!" My hackles went up. I regret not making a motion right then and there, along with pointing out that the Board HAS to do whatever the majority VOTES on them to do. The Board doesn't pick a number and send us a memo telling us how much we owe. But, I hesitated. Decided to run for Secretary instead.

I did some research on similar townhomes in our area. $100 is pretty standard.

Legally, I believe we could revolt and go back to paying the $50, if we wanted to be jerks about it. I'm really trying to be fair and honest and All Things Good.

But, the HOA dismissed our attorney. There is no legal document at the courthouse where that was made. I would think, if anything, THAT would required an Amendment. They say having an attorney on retainer was too expensive. I would like to see the HOA Minutes where that was approved. I don't believe it exists.

Also, we have foolishly waived the need for the Board to pay any association fees. We currently have about $1,000 in the Association fund. I don't even remember how that happened. (I was elsewhere for a couple of years in between, but retained ownership.) But, this means that each board is NOT PAYING $720/year. So...we have $1,000 in the HOA Fund, while the 3 board members are NOT PAYING another $2,160. I'm think' we were crazy to have agreed to that!

If the Board paid their fees, they could afford the attorney and then some, from the one document I saw showing bills.
I'm not sure they show us all the bills. I don't believe the board is literally stealing money. But, they're certainly conniving ways to keep their own money, while convincing us to foot the bill for removing trees and doing other things.

There was a special assessment to pay for matching shutters on the 28 units here. We did vote to replace the shutters, via special assessment. No special assessment was ever filed with the Recorder's office. Now, one resident refuses to pay and is repeatedly telling the Board to speak to his attorney. I'm absolutely sure that the resident is within his rights. None of us could have been required to pay.

I can't afford to pay for an attorney myself. But, I am trying to collect all the legal documents I can, without an attorney, to see if my neighbors and I can get things back on track.

The Board told me, verbally, that I have permission (haha) to review the Bylaws and Amendments and put together a plan for revising them. I'm not sure I need permission. But, the Treasurer told me that before the HOA proceeds, they want to know how much this is going to cost in terms of attorney fees and court filings. I say that's irrelevant. I would rather put our HOA fees toward a lawsuit to get things squared away.

Judy

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Sorry. No legal document showing fees is should read
The only legal document showing fees is....

j

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JudyrosellaE on 11/15/2022 5:18 PM
The Recorders Office also said CC&Rs are not always filed, in this county. So, I'll let that go, even though I would really like to see them.

You say there is common area. By my reading of the Illinois Common Interest Community Act (a statute, a.k.a. "the Act"), the latter likely applies to your townhome community. See https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?ActID=3273&ChapterID=62&SeqStart=100000&SeqEnd=1850000

-- I advise confirming your townhome community is not a condominium.

-- If the aforementioned Ill statute applies, then note the repeated reference to the recorded declaration.

-- the statute defines "declaration" as: any duly recorded instruments, however designated, that have created a common interest community and any duly recorded amendments to those instruments.

-- the statute requires the HOA to make available to owners a copy of the declaration when owners request it.

-- If you are not presently on the board, then you have little chance of causing any change.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Hi, SheilaH.

Your question is the same as mine.
We don't know.
That's gotta change.

j

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Yeah. I found this on Quicken Loans website. (Hope I'm allowed to post this link)
https://www.quickenloans.com/learn/covenants-conditions-restrictions

When you close on your home, you’ll sign a document stating you read the CC&Rs and agree to uphold them.

I just went over my closing documents. Again. With a fine-tooth comb. Doesn't even mention Bylaws. There are check lists and all kinds of things. Bylaws or HOA never appear anywhere.

I started a Facebook Group, polling my neighbors. So far, not one person has reported that they even have a copy of the Bylaws. I can't fix the past but I'd really like to make things better for the future.

I am so grateful to have found this group.

j

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Oh, THANK YOU!

Downloaded from Peoria County Recorder's Office:

Not a Condo.
Yes a Cooperative Housing Corporation as defined in Section 216 of IRS COdd 1954
Yes HOA which administers a common-interest community
Form NFP-102.10 Dec. 29, 2000

https://apps.ilsos.gov/corporatellc/
Entity Type CORPORATION
Type of Corp NOT-FOR-PROFIT
Incorporation Date (Domestic)Wednesday, 6 December 2000
State ILLINOIS
Duration Date PERPETUAL

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

CORP MST 61352821 FOREST RIDGE TOWNHOMES ASSOCIATION, INC.‎‎‎‎

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

As far as change....
Fortunately, the current President has thrown up his hands. I had to buy him a copy of Robert's Rules. He is supporting me running. Wants me to be President but I don't feel like I have the skill for that. Most of our issues are related to maintenance, and I don't know anything about that. I do plan to run for Secretary. He knows that. He is endorsing me. He told me privately about the Board losing some money over something they had no authority to do. Not going to talk about that here.

Currently, our secretary doesn't even have a computer and has no idea what an Agenda is. Sad.

j

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Still working on it. I have this from the County. Will head back to the State.

1. Plat 1996 025970 8/30/1996

2. DECLARATION OF RESTRICTIONS FOR FOREST RIDGE TOWNHOMES THIS DECLARATION OF RESTRICTIONS is made this 13 of August 1996,

3. DECLARATION OF AMENDMENT TO DECLARATION OF RESTRICTIONS FOR FOREST RIDGE TOWNHOMES May 6, 1997 97-13290

4. Articles of Incorporation 2000041054. Dec 6, 2000

5. AMENDMENT OF DECLARATION OF RESTRICTIONS AND DECLARATION OF ORGANIZATION OF HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION FOR FOREST RIDGE TOWNHOMES THIS AMENDMENT OF DECLARATION OF RESTRICTIONS AND DECLARATION OF ORGANIZATION OF HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION FOR FOREST RIDGE TOWNHOMES is made by LON R. BALLARD, being the Developer, hereinafter referred to as the "Developer," of certain real property, commonly known as FOREST RIDGE TOWNHOMES, hereinafter referred to as "Subdivision," and commonly known and legally described as follows: Mar 5 2001

6. SECOND DECLARATION doesn’t appear to exist

7. S514 - THIRD DECLARATION OF AMENDMENT TO DECLARATION OF RESTRICTIONS FOR FOREST RIDGE TOWNHOMES 12/29/2020 03: 43: 20 PM Total Pages: 6

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

AugustinD,

I think this is as far as I can get tonight. I emailed a request for any docs from the State of IL:
Certified Copy of Articles of Incorporation and all amendments ..........................................................$5

I closed the window but I think it said it could take up to 20 days.

Thanks everyone! I do feel like I am starting to catch on.

I'm grateful for the help.

Judy

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

Oh, gosh! Yes, I did say 2018. It was 2008. Color me embarrassed.
j

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JudyrosellaE on 11/16/2022 6:57 PM

Downloaded from [ ] County Recorder's Office:

Not a Condo.
Yes a Cooperative Housing Corporation as defined in Section 216 of IRS COdd 1954
Yes HOA which administers a common-interest community
Form NFP-102.10 Dec. 29, 2000

Judy,

-- Illinois law distinguishes between a "cooperative" and a HOA. Getting a handle on the difference is important.

-- I want to try to confirm that this is a cooperative. Below are a few questions about this.

-- Do you recall people there speaking of a "blanket mortgage," with said blanket mortgage applying to the entire cooperative?

-- When you bought your home, were you told that you would have one mortgage in your name but would also be paying, through your association's assessment, for another mortgage? The second mortgage is a mortgage held in the cooperative's name.

-- Every year since you bought into this cooperative, do you recall receiving a tax form from the coop? Said tax form would indicate the mortgage interest you would be allowed to deduct (if itemizing) on your federal taxes. If you have such a tax form, can you provide the form number printed on it?

-- Do you have a deed for your townhome? Or instead, do you have some kind of certificate that you own bona fide shares in the corporation, said shares being associated with your particular townhome and its address?

-- If this is a cooperative, then the statute I mentioned earlier expressly does not apply.Instead, the Illinois Cooperative Act applies. See https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2295&ChapterID=65

-- The Ill Cooperative Act states that the Declaration must be recorded with the Secretary of State.

-- The Illinois Nonprofit Corporation Act simultaneously applies. See https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2280&ChapterID=65

-- I am looking at a sample form NFP 102.10. I see Article 6 asks whether this is a cooperative, subject to yada yada. Article 6 also asks if this is a homeowners association, as described in (yada). If the form indicates this is both a cooperative and a homeowners association, then something is not right, at least in my experience.

-- I would ask the county clerk to pull up the plat for you, so you can read it and see if perhaps it has a declaration attached to it.

-- From what you posted from the county clerk, I am baffled as to why so far, the clerk says it does not have any declaration recorded for the cooperative.

-- I look forward to your report of what the Articles of Incorporation (from the Illinois Secretary of State) say. It's possible bylaws may be in the set of documents the Illinois Sec of State sends you.

-- Do your Bylaws require Robert's Rules? Illinois state law does not. If not, I would not be so quick to adopt them. I think a board needs some parliamentary procedure but Robert's Rules is not appropriately written. It is a very thick and verbose handbook of suggestions for how to conduct meetings in an organized way and prepare minutes. At some point, starting a thread titled, "Recommendations for Parliamentary Procedure?" might be a good idea.

-- This thread is going into so much depth that I think I am close to advising that, if you get on the board, the board hire an attorney and then present the attorney with a list of basic questions. Coop attorneys are often wonderful educators on the legal structure of one's (coop, HOA, COA). It's money well worth paying. FWIW, I will hang in there in this discussion, because without question, having an introduction to the vocabulary here can make meetings with the attorney much more informative. As I can tell you know, this is an education. You are establishing a great foundation with the look-ups you have done.

-- There is not much more to look up at this point. Hopefully a recorded copy of the declaration turns up.

JudyrosellaE
Posts: 57

Posted:

HOA. I'm sure. I've seen that on the few documents that have been filed with the County. No, we don't pay any other taxes. I've never heard of any certificates.

Re: Robert's Rules
I'm not convinced that the current board even realizes the Board is a Legal thing. What I actually gave them was a copy of "Robert's Rules for Dummies."

NO OFFENSE MEANT. They stumble through meetings.

The Bylaws don't specify Robert's Rules. I'm appalled at the way they just jot some things down and call it an Agenda, and distribute it at the meeting. It's clear they don't anticipate that anyone might want to do some research ahead of time about an issue. I don't think it's intentional. I think it is naivete. I honestly don't think they are trying to push something thru quickly. They just don't see that it matters.

Makin' me crazeeeeeee

I'm hugely grateful for your help.

j

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JudyrosellaE on 11/17/2022 7:25 PM
HOA. I'm sure. I've seen that on the few documents that have been filed with the County. No, we don't pay any other taxes. I've never heard of any certificates.

Okay. I will assume that someone did not know any better and ticked off the box on the aforementioned state form indicating:

"Yes a Cooperative Housing Corporation as defined in Section 216 of IRS COdd 1954"

Robert's Rules for Dummies is likely a lot better than the 800+ page latest edition of Robert's Rules. Still, Robert's Rules is overwhelmingly designed for corporations that are set up with the Board controlling nearly everything. It's so full of not applicable guidance that anyone from a HOA/COA likely will be confused. E.g. the descendants of Henry Robert run an online forum for questions about Robert's Rules. The moderators are actual Robert family members. The moderators and other long time posters at the forum think that the owners at a HOA/COA can vote to override any board decision. Not so. Even Robert's Rules says that the Rules defer to the bylaws, articles of incorporation, and state law. Per the bylaws, articles of inc, and state law, the lawful way to change a board decision is almost always by electing new directors.

More in the other thread you kindly started.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 11/18/2022 6:57 AM
Still, Robert's Rules is overwhelmingly designed for corporations that are set up with the Board controlling nearly everything.

Post-o. I meant to write:

Still, Robert's Rules is overwhelmingly not designed for corporations that are set up with the Board controlling nearly everything.

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