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DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
When voting for directors our association compiles a list of people interested and at the annual meeting we are asked to vote that group up or down.
Is this an acceptable means of voting for directors? There is no oportunity to vote on individual candidates nor do we know their qualifications and being we are all neighbors a bit intimidating to do this publicly.
There is nothing in our bylaws as to this procedure only that directors are elected at annual meeting.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
No!
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
Can you elaborate on correct procedure?
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
-- Has your HOA been using the statutorily required, independent third party inspector of elections? See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5110 . I think this is the very first thing I would ask the Board, first casually, politely and concisely, pointing out in a non-confrontational way what the law is. If no response, report back.

-- The second thing I would ask is: Has the HOA adopted the statutorily required election rules, pursuant to Ca Civil Code 5105? See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Election-Rules-Required and https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5105

-- I would hope the statutorily required, third party elections inspector vetoes conducting elections as you described. It seems to me that conducting elections as you described results in not being able to comply with a number of statute sections.

-- As always: Be ready for revenge.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Your "association," whatever that means (board? Property manager?), is doing it wrong. The correct procedure is very complicated. You need to read the state statutes for yourself at davis-stirling.com, Menu, Elections.

Just ONE important requirement by state statute is that secret ballots go the owners via USPS, and may be returned by mail, brought to a designated place, or brought to the annual meeting. Attendance is not required at the latter. Ballots are secret & must be in double envelopes. But there's so much more.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Damon, just saying: Watch KerryL1's posts in this thread. I recall she recently prepared the election rules for her COA/HOA/CID, pursuant to a significant change in election statutory requirements in the last year or so. If she says these statutory requirements are demanding, they are.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Crossed with Augustin. Yes, 1 or 3 inspectors of election are required and they are appointed by the board. Their task is to count the secret ballots. So far as I know, they do not evaluate or "rule" on whether the entire election is being conducted legally.
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
Wow no we dont do any of that and I see I have some studying to do in that regard.
Our procedure at this last election was well, we got 7 names here just enough for the 7 director spots. anybody else? all in favor etc and thats it..its just us and a member moderating the meeting not even an officer
Ok got to unravel this. Thanks for the leads
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
our association is a property owners association its basic function is to mantain the easements that compose our road system and each of us property owners own. So its a patchwork of easements.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/14/2022 9:59 AM
Wow no we dont do any of that and I see I have some studying to do in that regard.
Our procedure at this last election was well, we got 7 names here just enough for the 7 director spots. anybody else? all in favor etc and thats it..its just us and a member moderating the meeting not even an officer
Ok got to unravel this. Thanks for the leads

Could it have been that only seven were running for seven open spots? In some associations an election would not be necessary. They become the new BOD Members via acclamation.
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
Here is how it went from the minutes:

"Election of Directors. The Moderator then announced that the next order
of business was the election of Directors for the following year, who would serve
until their successors are elected or appointed. The nominations for Directors
were presented, and the following seven (7) Directors were elected by unanimous
vote"
--------------------

There were no real nominations. 4 directors that had already served a decade ran themselves again with 3 new people.
They claim the phrase who would serve "until their successors are elected" allows them to run over and over again.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Unless you received 2 or three notices to all members (owners) from the association, it was done so incorrectly, that you really must read the citation above. Tooooooo much for a listing of all the steps on this forum.

It doesn't work that way in CA, JohnC. There still must be preliminary steps that the Association must take, formal letter inviting candidates for the Board...and more.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Damon

Augustin is the self proclaimed legal authority for all things pertaining to I believe everything that goes on in the United States and Kerry is his side kick. I could tell you how things should be done, but it just turns into one big pissing contest. So I'll leave it to the two "experts".
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
Max I really am interested in your opinion. Nobody knows it all so lets hear it
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
First,

Someone needs to review your Bylaws, how old they are. If your association is self-managed, who has kept your association current on new laws and statues. As pointed out, you need to have a current set of election rules based on your Bylaws. This link will give you the proper timeline on how long, start to finish, to conduct an election for directors. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/H/HOA-Election-Timeline.

You need an independent third party inspector of elections, who is not under contract to the association, so your management company, if any or attorney can not be the inspector. The inspector can be a couple of homeowners that are not related to any candidate or board member.

Bylaws will only tell you when an election should be held, how many directors, their terms, what quorum is, how to adjourn, etc. Election Rules will take all the relevant information from the Bylaws and set up a procedure, start to finish on conducting any of the secret ballot election required by civil code. The ones I have put together for clients are about 20 pages. Putting a set together takes about 30 minutes, getting it implemented, where that depends solely on whether the board wants change and/or if residents are willing to set up and create change.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 11/14/2022 11:36 AM
Unless you received 2 or three notices to all members (owners) from the association, it was done so incorrectly, that you really must read the citation above. Tooooooo much for a listing of all the steps on this forum.

It doesn't work that way in CA, JohnC. There still must be preliminary steps that the Association must take, formal letter inviting candidates for the Board...and more.

Kerry

As we allow nominations from the floor, so we do not know how many are running until we call for nominations at the Annual Meeting. In our Annual Meeting notice (at least 30 days before, via USPS) we notify owners how many spots are available and if anyone is interested they can nominate themselves from the floor at the meeting or have someone else nominate them. Also the nominee(s) does not have to be there as someone else can nominate them. When we have the same amount running as open spots, we do not hold an election. They are elected via acclimation. All that said, only twice in 7 years (and none in the last 5years) have we had more running then open spots. And more then once, we had to go begging for people to run.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The thing is, JohnC, your SC way is not legal in Ca and the OP is asking about a CA HOA, not an SC one
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
If I recall it right, Max has been correct in his discussions of CA Election Rules and Annual meetings/elections. So emailing him should be very helpful for you. But, still read the areas I at Davis-Stirling.com that apply.

Btw, unless your Bylaws contain term limits, yes, directors, per CA corporations codes can run over and over again.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/14/2022 9:59 AM
Our procedure at this last election was well, we got 7 names here just enough for the 7 director spots. anybody else? all in favor etc and thats it..its just us and a member moderating the meeting not even an officer
-- You ought to be aware that votes by acclimation are allowed, and it appears to me that these acclimation votes are a straight up and down vote for the entire slate. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/U/Uncontested-Elections-by-Acclamation.

-- I consider the "anybody else?" part to be a call for nominations from the floor. Note that the law says those who mailed in ballots forfeit the right to vote for nominees from the floor. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/N/Nomination-of-Candidates

-- Yes, for this past election there are a bunch of other statute sections that were not followed, but I hesitate to fight this past election's outcome. I think doing so is not a good use of your time.

-- I would focus on asking the board to comply with the sections of the California code pertaining to elections, in the future, and starting with the next annual election. I would list the sections (so they know I am watching), and point out that there may be more.

-- The statutorily required, third party inspector of elections has this statutory power: "Perform any acts as may be proper to conduct the election with fairness to all members in accordance with this article, the Corporations Code, and all applicable rules of the association regarding the conduct of the election that are not in conflict with this article." I think this is a broad power. If exercised reasonably, I can see an inspector disallowing an election in its entirety and recommending the election be re-done.
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
For acclamation voting Davis-Stirling the HOA has to meet 6 qualifications. We dont meet all of them. right from the first one we havent had a director election in 8 years
There is a clause in our bylaws "each director shall serve for 2 years and until his successor shall be elected and qualified."
This board takes that to mean they stay directors until another is elected. They hold no elections for a decade thus the director stays until they want to hold an "annual" election.
Is there any state statute limiting the term of a director for a nonprofit corp?

The past president told me (verbally) that we havent really had an association since 1978 (when the CC&R's expired). I didnt follow up on that at the time maybe I should have.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/15/2022 8:17 AM
There is a clause in our bylaws "each director shall serve for 2 years
Is this clause the one you claim represents a term limit, meaning in your opinion, this means any director who serves two years cannot serve on the board subsequently, ever again?

Such a Bylaw is common nationwide. It does not mean what you think it means.

California statutes place no limits on how many terms a director may serve.

California statutes say: "Except as otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, each director, including a director elected to fill a vacancy, shall hold office until the expiration of the term for which elected and until a successor has been elected and qualified, unless the director has been removed from office."

Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/15/2022 8:17 AM
The past president told me (verbally) that we havent really had an association since 1978 (when the CC&R's expired). I didnt follow up on that at the time maybe I should have.
Correct, you should have. Because it appears the statute of limitations for challenging a California HOA/COA election is one year.

AFAIC, everyone needs to follow the rules. I know 'following the rules' translates to a lot of study of bylaws, covenants and state law. But the more one reads and re-reads, the more a logic becomes apparent, and the easier it becomes to know, for one, when to check with the covenants, bylaws or statutes.

Else FWIW, good for you for asking about much of this here first, before writing the board with potentially incorrect claims. Not that this forum is perfect. But it's probably the best HOA/COA advice one will get at no charge. Sometimes the advice here is better than that of even HOA/COA specialized attorneys, AFAIC.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
The paperwork filed with the Secretary of State does not indicate they are subject to the provisions of the Davis Stirling Act as a Common Interest Development. IMO, they are a simple proerty owners association with nothing in common.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I was wondering a bout that, max, when he wrote "property owners association" way above.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/10/2022 4:28 PM
The issues [the board] address[es] are maintaining the easements which compose the road system of our neighborhood


Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/10/2022 7:13 PM
Our roads and bridges are maintained most recently in 2018 the road system was repaved. It took 20 years to get it done but it was done.


Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/11/2022 9:33 AM
It is the job of the association to provide for insurance for these easements and I wish to see the declarations page to see what coverage actually is in force.


Who paid for the re-pavement of the roads?

Who owns the roads?

Who is allowed to use the roads? Any owner? Any member of the public?

Does each owner have easement rights to use any part of the roads?

If road use is pursuant to a reciprocal easement, then per California law, said reciprocal easement may qualify as common area that puts the HOA under the Davis-Stirling Act.
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
We the members pay for the roads out of our dues.
Roads composed of a series of easements each property has at least one combined they make up the road system. I read somewhere that the association holds title to the road easements.
roads are private and should be for residents only but realistically anyone can come in there is no gate.
yes each owner can use any part of the roads.
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/15/2022 8:36 AM
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/15/2022 8:17 AM
There is a clause in our bylaws "each director shall serve for 2 years
Is this clause the one you claim represents a term limit, meaning in your opinion, this means any director who serves two years cannot serve on the board subsequently, ever again?

Such a Bylaw is common nationwide. It does not mean what you think it means.

California statutes place no limits on how many terms a director may serve.

California statutes say: "Except as otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, each director, including a director elected to fill a vacancy, shall hold office until the expiration of the term for which elected and until a successor has been elected and qualified, unless the director has been removed from office."

Quote:
Posted By DamonG1 on 11/15/2022 8:17 AM
The past president told me (verbally) that we havent really had an association since 1978 (when the CC&R's expired). I didnt follow up on that at the time maybe I should have.
Correct, you should have. Because it appears the statute of limitations for challenging a California HOA/COA election is one year.

AFAIC, everyone needs to follow the rules. I know 'following the rules' translates to a lot of study of bylaws, covenants and state law. But the more one reads and re-reads, the more a logic becomes apparent, and the easier it becomes to know, for one, when to check with the covenants, bylaws or statutes.

Else FWIW, good for you for asking about much of this here first, before writing the board with potentially incorrect claims. Not that this forum is perfect. But it's probably the best HOA/COA advice one will get at no charge. Sometimes the advice here is better than that of even HOA/COA specialized attorneys, AFAIC.


Made a mistake "each director cannot serve more than 2 "consecutive terms". My bad...
DamonG1 (California)
Posts: 44
Posted:
Correct, you should have. Because it appears the statute of limitations for challenging a California HOA/COA election is one year.>

That president was replaced last August so less than a year. He is now a director.

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