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JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/staten-island-man-sent-rikers-182100514.html

Here's the text of the article:

Something about New York’s legal system doesn’t seem right to Joseph Riccardi, who is jailed because he won’t spend up to $500,000 to meet the demands of his Staten Island condo board.

“There are people committing serious crimes who don’t even have to post bail and are free,” Riccardi told the Daily News. “Yet, I’m on Rikers? It’s absolutely ridiculous.”

“I’m a 57-year-old grandfather, worked 35 years in the finance industry,” an exasperated Riccardi said. “I haven’t got a parking ticket in 20 years. I’ve never so much as sat in a police car.”

Riccardi, a foreign currency trader, began his most recent Rikers Island stretch Oct. 24, and expects to be released Dec. 28.

His trouble is rooted in a years-long legal feud with the board of Ocean View Tower, a condo on the far northern end of Hylan Blvd. in Rosebank, near New York Harbor and across the street from the historic Alice Austen House.

In 2006, Riccardi bought a 14th-floor penthouse in the building for nearly $1 million.

At some point after the building went up in 1989, someone added to the size of the penthouse, the building’s board says. A lawsuit says the addition “exclusively used certain portions of the roof” and is in violation of the city’s building code.

Riccardi said he learned that the 1,500-square-foot rooftop addition was completed by a previous owner, though one architect later told him the space was in fact part of the building’s original construction.

Howard File, a lawyer for Ocean View, doesn’t dispute Riccardi’s claim that he didn’t build on the condo’s roof — but says it doesn’t matter. Under the building’s bylaws, Ocean View says, Riccardi is responsible for fixing the situation.

“He inherited the problem from a previous unit owner,” File said of Riccardi. “And he is responsible under the bylaws for rectifying the building violation.”

Riccardi has already spent more than $425,000 in legal fees and penalties and owes about $100,000 in court penalties. Removing the extension will cost another $300,000 to $500,000 — and Riccardi’s wife, Ann Marie Porto, 60, said they have no money left.

Riccardi hasn’t worked for about 18 months, and a new job is on hold pending the outcome of his legal battle.

“My husband is a broken man,” Porto said. “A broken man.”

The events that put Riccardi on Rikers Island were set in motion in 2016 when the suit by Ocean View Tower accused him of building the addition to his 3,150 square foot property.

At about the same time, the Department of Buildings, acting on a call to 311, inspected the property and issued a violation for the addition, which is described in records as a sports room capped with a skylight roof, and a theater room.

A second violation was issued three months later when the conditions were not corrected.

Both violations were later dismissed by a judge for the Office of Administrative Trials and Hearings because the condo was wrongly cited on the violation’s paperwork as having made the extension, records show.

But Ocean View’s lawsuit went to trial, with Riccardi losing in December 2020 and Judge Orlando Marrazzo Jr. ordering him to pay $126,000 in legal fees, common charges and other fees related to the extension. Riccardi was later ordered to pay $150 for each day he failed to fix the property.

The judge also gave Riccardi the opportunity to demolish the extension and return the condo to its original state — or to “legalize” the apartment by modifying it so it adheres to the building code.

File says Riccardi failed to legalize the property, though Riccardi said the plans he presented would have met that requirement.

Riccardi hopes a still-pending appeal is decided in his favor — and is considering filing bankruptcy if he loses.

Meanwhile, in April 2021, Judge Lizette Colon, who took over the case after Marrazzo retired, ordered Riccardi held in contempt for disobeying court orders to remove the rooftop addition.

After a series of delays, Riccardi was jailed for 10 days in January, court papers show. He was released because of health issues. Over the following months, several more court hearings were held, and Riccardi tried without luck to find a contractor willing to do the work.

“No one wants to do it,” said Riccardi’s lawyer, Jorge Salva. “No one wants to get involved. The property is toxic.”

In late October, Riccardi was sent back to Rikers under an order Colon issued that cited his “misconduct and disobedience and neglect and refusal to comply” with a orders to remove the illegal addition.

Though he’s to be released on Dec. 28, he could be returned to jail if he doesn’t move to fix the situation, Salva said.

The condo board “has a vendetta against him,” going back to when it improperly removed him as president of its board, Salva said.

The removal occurred amid a series of feuds between Riccardi and some of his neighbors.

In 2016, Riccardi sued seven building residents, accusing them of falsely alleging he improperly installed equipment in the lobby to “spy” on conversations, misappropriated money, and took kickbacks from people doing business with the building — including $10,000 from the producers of a TV show called “Mob Wives” that filmed at Ocean View.

File said Riccardi was properly voted off the Ocean View board. Riccardi’s neighbors successfully got the lawsuit discontinued in 2021, court papers show.

That case is separate from the effort by Riccardi’s neighbors’ suit to make him take down the extension on the Ocean View roof.

“It’s almost like they’d rather see him in jail than the structure removed,” Salva said. ‘’This is a civil matter. This is not somebody who deliberately committed an offense or refused to obey a subpoena to testify.

“[Riccardi] is basically in debtor’s prison.”

Riccardi, who will be behind bars for both Thanksgiving and Christmas, said in jailhouse phone interview on Friday that people he speaks to have a hard time believing his story.

“They laugh their ass off,” he said. “They can’t believe that this happened.

“They’ve never seen anything like this.”
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
The situation desribed is common. A small percentage of people expand their property beyond the defined property boundary, and then get really defensive and argumentative about it. I am dealing with that personally as well as through my role as HOA president. It's never a pretty situation.

Some people are simply thickheaded and don't get it.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/12/2022 4:08 PM
The situation desribed is common. A small percentage of people expand their property beyond the defined property boundary, and then get really defensive and argumentative about it. I am dealing with that personally as well as through my role as HOA president. It's never a pretty situation.

Some people are simply thickheaded and don't get it.

A previous owner built the addition years before he bought it.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/12/2022 4:10 PM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/12/2022 4:08 PM
The situation desribed is common. A small percentage of people expand their property beyond the defined property boundary, and then get really defensive and argumentative about it. I am dealing with that personally as well as through my role as HOA president. It's never a pretty situation.

Some people are simply thickheaded and don't get it.


A previous owner built the addition years before he bought it.

Yes, but the sale of the property doesn't automatically grandfather the addition.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/12/2022 4:14 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/12/2022 4:10 PM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/12/2022 4:08 PM
The situation desribed is common. A small percentage of people expand their property beyond the defined property boundary, and then get really defensive and argumentative about it. I am dealing with that personally as well as through my role as HOA president. It's never a pretty situation.

Some people are simply thickheaded and don't get it.


A previous owner built the addition years before he bought it.


Yes, but the sale of the property doesn't automatically grandfather the addition.

Let's see here a massive addition was built before he owned it. There can be no question that prior Board allowed it and knew about it since it altered the roof line. The current Board elects not to try and grandfather in the addition and instead believes that the owner should now pay $300-$500K to rectify the problem created by the HOA's failure to do their job.

Is this what you would do as CEO Michael?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
that about sums it up. HOA boards can be pretty vindictive!

vis ta vie
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
EEK - it seems to me there's a solution somewhere in the middle here, but it's a matter of finding out where that is. Previous boards not doing their job in this regard isn't surprising - that's one reason why rule enforcement (starting with being fair and CONSISTENT) is so important. I don't know if there are any records anywhere noting who owned the house before this, but even if you could find whoever did this, I'm sure the statute of limitations is long gone. In the end, I fear both sides are going to have to pony up some money to fix this or the lawsuits will continue and Riccardi will spend more time in jail.

It would have been helpful if the owner had a home inspection done - and that inspection might have included contacting the board to see if there were any exterior changes made with or without prior approval. This is important whether you pay $10K or $1 million for the house - never trust the word of the seller without documentation. Saying "Mr. Z was the board president when I did this and he said it was ok" isn't documentation (people can and do lie about saying anything). And it's true that the new owner generally becomes responsible for changes made before he or she showed up, so it's not necessarily about the board being "vindictive". There are city codes involved here and if those violations are pursued, all the homeowners will be responsible for paying the association's expenses in fixing it (or paying the fines AND having to fix it anyway.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 11/13/2022 5:44 AM
EEK - it seems to me there's a solution somewhere in the middle here, but it's a matter of finding out where that is. Previous boards not doing their job in this regard isn't surprising - that's one reason why rule enforcement (starting with being fair and CONSISTENT) is so important. I don't know if there are any records anywhere noting who owned the house before this, but even if you could find whoever did this, I'm sure the statute of limitations is long gone. In the end, I fear both sides are going to have to pony up some money to fix this or the lawsuits will continue and Riccardi will spend more time in jail.

It would have been helpful if the owner had a home inspection done - and that inspection might have included contacting the board to see if there were any exterior changes made with or without prior approval. This is important whether you pay $10K or $1 million for the house - never trust the word of the seller without documentation. Saying "Mr. Z was the board president when I did this and he said it was ok" isn't documentation (people can and do lie about saying anything). And it's true that the new owner generally becomes responsible for changes made before he or she showed up, so it's not necessarily about the board being "vindictive". There are city codes involved here and if those violations are pursued, all the homeowners will be responsible for paying the association's expenses in fixing it (or paying the fines AND having to fix it anyway.

You bring up some very fair points. My heartburn with this is that there can be absolutely no question that the Board knew about the PREVIOUS owner building a 1500 square foot addition. There was simply no way to hide this work especially when its in a condo building. I am also not convinced that a home inspection would have helped. When I hired a home inspector for my condo he inspected the unit but he did not contact the Board and ask any questions. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I don't think most inspectors would typically do this. I do agree it's a smart thing to do but most of us wouldn't even think to have this done.

This situation is so egregious when it comes to the failure of the previous Boards and the cost to rectify this situation. If I was on the Board I would have advocated for contacting the HOA lawyer and find a way to grandfather this addition in. The reason the addition does not meet city code is a direct result of the Board either illegally approving the addition or simply choosing to ignore it when it was built. When an HOA is caught being grossly negligent they ought to be punished and when this happens maybe the homeowners will wake up and get involved.

I realize that this article probably doesn't tell the whole story. Based on this homeowner previously suing 7 other homeowners and getting kicked off the Board I can't help but wonder if he's a pain the ass and the current situation with his illegal addition is the Board's way of teaching him a lesson. Even if this is true, I personally don't agree with the current Board's action. The HOA created the mess and the HOA should clean it up. How they are able to wash their hands of ANY responsibility and not at least share in the cost to fix this problem infuriates me.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/13/2022 7:00 AM
If I was on the Board I would have advocated for contacting the HOA lawyer and find a way to grandfather this addition in. The reason the addition does not meet city code is a direct result of the Board either illegally approving the addition or simply choosing to ignore it when it was built.
Or the then-owner did not seek and obtain permits from the city?

The city code violation is front and center on my mind. I want to know what this violation is and what the city has to say about this violation. Then I'd have a better idea as to whether grandfathering should even be considered.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I actually agree an home inspector would not have caught this issue. That being they don't look at the blue prints necessarily. This would have been one of those "blue print" issues.

Now do I believe the guy should be in Jail. No. However, I don't know the whole story or laws that this would apply in New York. Feel like jail could have been avoided on both parties involved.

This is where many will not agree with me. (Shocker). What I read through the lines here is that he bought a condo with roof top access. He decided to use this roof top access area as part of their living space. It is a little fuzzy if this was ever a "new build" item by previous owner or it was intended to be HOA common area. It seems odd an owner would have built this addition more than just kind of "take it over".

This put the HOA in a situation where the city code is violated. That being violated the city has to go after the HOA. (All owners). The rest of the owners I am sure are going "We didn't build this. Take it down or make compliant". Well this is where it lacks communication. What qualifies as making it "legal" structure? Is it getting converted back to common area? Is it taking it down?

I view this as if someone living next door to your clubhouse decided to build a hallway connecting to it. They took the space over as part of their living space. It wasn't being used and people just accepted this was part of the house over time. One day the city comes around and says "Hey HOA. This structure isn't built to code. Make it code or take it down". What does the HOA need to do? The city is fining the HOA for it. The HOA is going try to pass that fine onto the owner. Plus make them compliant to city code. If the owner is doing nothing, dragging their feet, or just not being co-operative what can the HOA do? They may have their hands tied in this situation legally.

This is where our HOA rule of if you don't correct it, we correct it for you, sending you the bill. If don't pay the bill, we lien you for it. However, that doesn't apply to every HOA or state. The owner does bare some responsibility for this but they should have worked with the HOA in communicating not procrastinating.

Side note: I watch some YouTube videos on NY house tours by realtors etc... So they do mention alot on how a roof structure or an addition is "illegal". Even the Realtors seem to know when something is "illegal". Whether or not they disclose this I can't tell. I can see how this situation does exist after watching these videos. It's interesting.

Former HOA President
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
No, most home inspectors wouldn't think to ask about exterior changes. This is why buyers should ask about that themselves, especially if they're moving into a HOA. Add this to a list of stuff homeowners should ask about (in addition to the documents,recent budget and reserve study) before they buy. Get written documentation of all of this- it may not guarantee there won't be drama, but it might help 8f tge board comes back and trues to enforce something that should have been caught.

Like John, I find it hard to believe the previous homeowner put all this stuff in and no one noticed all the workers or overheard the racket this amount of work had to have made. I'd also be curious to know if any former board members are still around- if so, I wonder if THEY could be held liable. Clearly this is an example of fiduciary duty being tossed - you cannot put the association into this kind of legal and financial jeopardy.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I'd be interested to know if the unit owner is suing the previous owner. They sold him a unit at a price based on the entire square footage, possibly without revealing that the large addition was illegal and unpermitted. Or did he know when he bought it that it was unpermitted and took a chance?
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Yes Lori, I am interested in how long after the sale and discovery of an issue can a buyer sue the previous owner and will or can title insurance cover something like this?
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
I like Lori's questions.

I would think the square footage was in the condo's declaration. New York does appear to require that a condo association's declaration be recorded with the county.

I tend to think the condo association has correctly nailed the owner. The owner's response to the court has been that no contractor is willing to do the removal of the addition. Hmm. Lots of questions. But if the city code violation translates to a safety issue, I can understand the court putting the guy in jail for contempt.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
From the net: The Staten Island condo building in question is about 15 stories tall, with 54 units and a pool on the side of the building. It was built in 1987. Looks strangely similar to the Surfside building in Florida (built around 1981). There's a two bedroom two bath with about 1200 sq feet currently on the market for about $585,000 (listing price now down 8% or so, if I am reading the listing correctly), unit 3b.

My things are affordable once one gets out of Manhattan and "to the other side of the tracks." The condo fees look strangely low. I wonder what this building's reserve study and structural engineer's report have to say.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/14/2022 7:27 AM
I like Lori's questions.

I would think the square footage was in the condo's declaration. New York does appear to require that a condo association's declaration be recorded with the county.

I tend to think the condo association has correctly nailed the owner. The owner's response to the court has been that no contractor is willing to do the removal of the addition. Hmm. Lots of questions. But if the city code violation translates to a safety issue, I can understand the court putting the guy in jail for contempt.

Are you saying the condo association has played no part in this situation and you think it's appropriate that they don't share in the cost to rectify the situation given that they blatantly ignored their responsibilities?
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/14/2022 8:40 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 11/14/2022 7:27 AM
I like Lori's questions.

I would think the square footage was in the condo's declaration. New York does appear to require that a condo association's declaration be recorded with the county.

I tend to think the condo association has correctly nailed the owner. The owner's response to the court has been that no contractor is willing to do the removal of the addition. Hmm. Lots of questions. But if the city code violation translates to a safety issue, I can understand the court putting the guy in jail for contempt.


Are you saying the condo association has played no part in this situation and you think it's appropriate that they don't share in the cost to rectify the situation given that they blatantly ignored their responsibilities?
I am saying this is New York. I am saying that think New York's laws for condos are way often notably different from Florida, Texas, California and the Carolinas.

This claim by the HOA that the bylaws say ____ about the situation has my attention:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/12/2022 4:05 PM

Howard File, a lawyer for Ocean View, doesn’t dispute Riccardi’s claim that he didn’t build on the condo’s roof — but says it doesn’t matter. Under the building’s bylaws, Ocean View says, Riccardi is responsible for fixing the situation.

“He inherited the problem from a previous unit owner,” File said of Riccardi. “And he is responsible under the bylaws for rectifying the building violation.”
The mere fact that a court early on ruled against Riccardi says a lot to me. Surely the court looked at all the points you raised, the covenants and New York law.

Such is my speculation based on what has been presented.

I know it's a huge deal to send a man to jail. But the guy had an order to do xyz. The guy did not do xyz. I believe courts have a lot of discretion when a court order is defied. I understand it is a big deal to defy a court order.

Such is my opinion at this time.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/14/2022 8:50 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/14/2022 8:40 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 11/14/2022 7:27 AM
I like Lori's questions.

I would think the square footage was in the condo's declaration. New York does appear to require that a condo association's declaration be recorded with the county.

I tend to think the condo association has correctly nailed the owner. The owner's response to the court has been that no contractor is willing to do the removal of the addition. Hmm. Lots of questions. But if the city code violation translates to a safety issue, I can understand the court putting the guy in jail for contempt.


Are you saying the condo association has played no part in this situation and you think it's appropriate that they don't share in the cost to rectify the situation given that they blatantly ignored their responsibilities?
I am saying this is New York. I am saying that think New York's laws for condos are way often notably different from Florida, Texas, California and the Carolinas.

This claim by the HOA that the bylaws say ____ about the situation has my attention:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/12/2022 4:05 PM

Howard File, a lawyer for Ocean View, doesn’t dispute Riccardi’s claim that he didn’t build on the condo’s roof — but says it doesn’t matter. Under the building’s bylaws, Ocean View says, Riccardi is responsible for fixing the situation.

“He inherited the problem from a previous unit owner,” File said of Riccardi. “And he is responsible under the bylaws for rectifying the building violation.”
The mere fact that a court early on ruled against Riccardi says a lot to me. Surely the court looked at all the points you raised, the covenants and New York law.

Such is my speculation based on what has been presented.

I know it's a huge deal to send a man to jail. But the guy had an order to do xyz. The guy did not do xyz. I believe courts have a lot of discretion when a court order is defied. I understand it is a big deal to defy a court order.

Such is my opinion at this time.

I don't disagree about your point on ignoring the judge and getting time for it. What I am asking you is do you agree that the owner should have to pay the $300-$500K needed to rectify the problem given the fact that the HOA failed to enforce their covenants and without question sat by and let the previous owner build this illegal addition? If so, what's your justification for the HOA being able to wipe their hands clean of a mess that they created?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am not sure the HOA created it. The owner that did it creates it. Did they indeed have approval to do? Plus approval does not mean the HOA pays for the project. It means your okay at your expense to do the project. If it fails codes then you are responsible for it. The HOA just says you can go for it in good faith.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/14/2022 8:58 AM
do you agree that the owner should have to pay the $300-$500K needed to rectify the problem given the fact that the HOA failed to enforce their covenants and without question sat by and let the previous owner build this illegal addition? If so, what's your justification for the HOA being able to wipe their hands clean of a mess that they created?
-- COAs/HOAs failing to enforce covenant such-and-such (call it "X") comes up a lot here. Owners then ask whether a new board can start enforcing covenant X. My response time and again is that most of the time, a board will be able to lawfully start enforcing a covenant that past boards did not enforce. A board might even be legally obliged to do so. Do you agree with this general rule?

-- What is your position on on the folks who put up sheds out in the 'burbs and rural areas, in violation of their HOA's covenants, and then face a new board that decides to enforce the covenant prohibiting sheds? Should the HOA have to pay say half the cost of removal? Or hasn't this forum come down on the side of the owners knowing darn well the covenants existed, and so it's the owners' problem to fix, at the owners' expense?

-- I think you are arguing something like laches: It's either been too long for the board to object now; or the board waived the covenant by doing nothing for years. I am not trying to throw around five-dollar words. I am trying to point out that, when the COA issues a violation notice to say owner Dashwood, owner Dashwood may respond that laches and waiver preclude the COA's doing so. The COA can then disagree and pursue this in court. This appears to have happened here. As I noted above, there does seem to be general agreement that a COA/HOA can start enforcing a covenant that it has not enforced in some years.

-- The likelihood of encroachment here is very much on my mind. Did Riccardi build on space that is common area? I think the liability concerns are enormous. You say: Yes, it may be encroachment, but the COA consented to this by say acquiescence. "Acquiescence" being another five-dollar legal term of art, being used casually by me but I think I use it accurately enough. You know what it means. Common sense says the argument has at least some merit, and you are invoking it here. And yet a court appears to have ruled that the laches, waiver and acquiescence arguments fail here. Maybe because of the wording of the bylaws and covenants. Maybe because of case law. I do not know. I trust the court got it right, in the same way that many courts have gotten similar covenant enforcement cases right, even with claims of laches yada being made.

-- This enormous structure is on the roof. On a 35-year-old building not far from the ocean. This makes my blood boil. I hear you that your concern is who should pay. But I just wanted to get down here how I feel this is a serious situation, and how the owner not complying with a court's order (after the court had a trial and everything, and so due process occurred) is a big deal.

-- Where do I think your argument (that the COA should pay to remove the structure, maybe in full but at least in part) has merit? When a board expressly approves xyz structure and then, maybe years later, changes its mind and revokes the approval. The HOA/COA can darn well pay then, and for the entire bill. I believe case law backs this up. It's the "reliance" argument. The owner relied on the approval of the HOA and spent a lot of money relying on this approval. The courts say it's not fair for the Board to change its mind and not have to pay the cost to the owner.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/14/2022 9:12 AM
I am not sure the HOA created it. The owner that did it creates it. Did they indeed have approval to do? Plus approval does not mean the HOA pays for the project. It means your okay at your expense to do the project. If it fails codes then you are responsible for it. The HOA just says you can go for it in good faith.

Think for a minute. This was a 1500sq ft addition inside of a condo tower. How do you think the building materials were brought up without anyone knowing? How do you think the HOA's roof was modified without anyone knowing? How about the noise that was being created while it was under construction?

The HOA failed to enforce their covenants and sat back and buried their heads in the sand while it was all happening. Now some guy who wasn't the owner when it was built is paying the full financial cost of rectifying the problem and the HOA get's to play stupid and take no responsibility for their part in this fiasco. If HOA's are not going to be held accountable for the actions of their Boards then there is no reason for any Board to follow the laws or enforce the covenants when they know they screw the homeowners and get away with it.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
This issue sounds like a variation of adverse possession for condos. I am not familiar with how the adverse possession laws work for condos, but in traditional real estate, the land that is being encroached upon has a certain length of time to notice, or otherwise, the land is forever transferred.

Sounds like there is likely a similar statute of limitations that would apply here. Again, I am not really knowledgable on condo ownership laws.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/14/2022 9:34 AM
This issue sounds like a variation of adverse possession for condos.
N/A for condos. No land involved. Encroachment is the key word. All indications to me are that there is no time limit.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/14/2022 9:27 AM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/14/2022 9:12 AM
I am not sure the HOA created it. The owner that did it creates it. Did they indeed have approval to do? Plus approval does not mean the HOA pays for the project. It means your okay at your expense to do the project. If it fails codes then you are responsible for it. The HOA just says you can go for it in good faith.


Think for a minute. This was a 1500sq ft addition inside of a condo tower. How do you think the building materials were brought up without anyone knowing? How do you think the HOA's roof was modified without anyone knowing? How about the noise that was being created while it was under construction?

The HOA failed to enforce their covenants and sat back and buried their heads in the sand while it was all happening. Now some guy who wasn't the owner when it was built is paying the full financial cost of rectifying the problem and the HOA get's to play stupid and take no responsibility for their part in this fiasco. If HOA's are not going to be held accountable for the actions of their Boards then there is no reason for any Board to follow the laws or enforce the covenants when they know they screw the homeowners and get away with it.


I agree. The BOD screwed up.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Maybe I didn't read the article clearly enough. But to me there was no indication that the board had not been trying to pursue the original owner for this before this guy bought the unit.

I thought I read that he built the extra space on the rooftop above his unit. So the owner that built it could have done it and no one noticed (except probably the maintenance people) since no one went up on the roof. It's plausible.

But this is all speculation. Unless you read all the complaints, motions and depositions in the case we are never going to know the full story. A news article is never complete.

I became obsessed with the inheritance case our big delinquent homeowner is involved in between him and his three brothers. All of the documents are online.I look for updates a couple of times a week. The summary makes it seem like a simple case of kids fighting over the mom's estate. But the real story that is in the court documents is like a soap opera. I suspect this case is similar - looks like one thing, then throw in the fighting over the board and you get a whole other story.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again JohnT. The HoA APPROVED it does not mean they built it. It meant watching carry everything up and building not a problem. They knew about it if that was the case. That did not mean they checked codes or anything else out.

Plus it kind of sounds like existing space on the roof top. It does not sound like an addition. The person stated that the engineer said the space existed already. So it was not built. It was most likely modified to include their unit.

It is like your neighbor not using their garage so you just add it into your house. hOA may approve till the city inspector comes through. Then it is on the owner who modified to correct per code.

The city outranks the HOA

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Any BOD that sees construction going on in a building is stupid and I say liable for not asking about it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why would they ask about work they approved? They know it was going on if they approved it... Why would I stop someone if I know the work was okay to do? That makes no sense.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Posted By LoriM15 on 11/14/2022 10:24 AM
Unless you read all the complaints, motions and depositions in the case we are never going to know the full story. A news article is never complete. I also think that in owner v. HOA disputes, the media favors owners automatically. Why? Because the little guy against the big, bad HOA/COA corporation sells more advertising.

Toss in: This is New York City. Anyone accused of anything talks like a lawyer and claims complete innocence of any wrongdoing. Such is the feeling I get with Riccardi.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/14/2022 3:06 PM
Why would they ask about work they approved? They know it was going on if they approved it... Why would I stop someone if I know the work was okay to do? That makes no sense.

Where in the article I posted does it say the work was approved?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The ORIGINAL owner had to been approved. Were they not? It was the 2nd owner who did not do any of the work. Hence why they are in Jail for not correcting to City Code for what the previous owner did. The HOA didn't make sure it was up to City Code if they did approve it or the codes changed.

Former HOA President
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/14/2022 3:11 PM
The ORIGINAL owner had to been approved. Were they not? It was the 2nd owner who did not do any of the work. Hence why they are in Jail for not correcting to City Code for what the previous owner did. The HOA didn't make sure it was up to City Code if they did approve it or the codes changed.

Read the article again.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The person who bought the house said he bought it that way. Hence the previous owner had to done the work. However, it also says that it may have already existed. So the structure was already there. This is confusing. Was the structure built when the building was built or was it added on by the previous owner? That seems to be in conflict here.

Either way the City should be going after the current owner for correcting the code violation. The HOA is basically the middle man here.

Former HOA President
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
I would like to know how construction tools and building materials went up the elevator freight or passenger without anyone knowing.

I worked at a condo tower and the HOA would $#!T kittens and berate the guards if a owners cleaner brought a vacuum cleaner
on the regular elevators.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 11/14/2022 4:01 PM
I would like to know how construction tools and building materials went up the elevator freight or passenger without anyone knowing.

I worked at a condo tower and the HOA would $#!T kittens and berate the guards if a owners cleaner brought a vacuum cleaner
on the regular elevators.

Also how did the HOA allow a homeowner to modify the HOA's roof without ensuring that the modifications were safe and met local code? One would think they wouldn't have without seeing the building permits that proved this. What sticks in my crawl is that the HOA goes unpunished for their stupidity and direct involvement in this mess. I'm fine with the judge coming down on the homeowner for some of his actions but he should have also made an example of the HOA and made them responsible for putting the roof back to it's original condition.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
There's also a chance the previous board (and there could be more than one) saw what was going on, the owner threatened them with all sorts of lawyers if they didn't butt out (its easy to intimate some people). Or they looked at the plans, didn't think there would be a problem (without checking with the city, if they even thought about doing that) and said OK.

None of that excuses the board, of course, but may explain some of this.

That's why I'd find out if there were any long time residents around who may know the back story or at least enough to create good leads. If that leads me to the owner who created this mess, I'd drag him or her 8nto court as a witness. I might not be one to hold that owner financially responsible, but he/might be skurred enough to spill the tea on everyone who was around when all this went down.

When it comes to effective rule enforcement it's one thing to be reasonable, but that works both ways, especially when you live in a high rise where done changes will have far more impact. Sometimes you have to get your ducks in a row and say. "oh, you want to sue us for having the nerve to compel you to follow CCRs you agreed to when you bought the house or condo in the first place? Okie-doke - file your paperwork and we'll see who wins"

Sometimes people scream and scream about "mah rieghts" when they're really pissed they won't get their way 100% of the time and can't intimidate everyone. I said in another conversation if you're going to go through the time and expense of a lawsuit, win the damned thing.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
This is legal system gone amok 101.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
A certain HOA's covenants are recorded with the county. The covenants prohibit sheds. An owner builds a shed on her lot, never seeking permission from the board. The completed shed is obvious. Years later the board seeks to enforce the covenants. The board sues the owner, asking for a court order to remove the shed.

Who wins?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Can anyone still prove that the area in dispute was built by an owner or was existing space? I know that NY often has roof top access areas. I would like to know if that is the situation.

Former HOA President
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/15/2022 5:49 AM
A certain HOA's covenants are recorded with the county. The covenants prohibit sheds. An owner builds a shed on her lot, never seeking permission from the board. The completed shed is obvious. Years later the board seeks to enforce the covenants. The board sues the owner, asking for a court order to remove the shed.

Who wins?

There is a big difference between building a shed and the HOA knowingly allowing an owner to carve up the HOA roof without the necessary building permits.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/15/2022 6:03 AM
There is a big difference between building a shed and the HOA knowingly allowing an owner to carve up the HOA roof without the necessary building permits.
I think this hypothetical HOA knowingly allowed an owner to build the shed without any knowledge of whether any required building permits were issued.

I believe the courts say time and again that recorded covenants are public notice, and all owners are therefore said to be fully aware of the covenants. I think all posting here agree that the covenants were violated. The owner knew (on account of the public notice) that the covenants were violated. Bad on the owner, and only the owner.

If the COA had previously, expressly approved the rooftop addition, then I can see a court saying the HOA has to pay for all of its removal.

One could present a number of similar hypotheticals: Owner paints her home with polka-dots, in violation of a covenant requirement that the walls be painted one color. The painting is obvious to all neighbors, including the board. Board says nothing. A year later the board seeks to enforce. Who wins?

It's like you want owners to be off the hook because, according to you, the owners have no obligation to read the covenants. I do not buy it.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Ah, yes, the heart of rules enforcement. If boards 1-15 never enforced the CCRs, but board 16 comes along and says "this is ridiculous - the entire neighborhood looks funky because there's been an anything-goes attitude for too long - this stops now!", does that mean the CCRs are all for naught just because the previous 15 didn't do their jobs?

There have been dozens of conversations on this website regarding this topic - on the one hand, a judge can rule "Sorry, y'all never enforced this rule for whatever reason so you can't do a 180" or "Just because there wasn't active enforcement doesn't mean the rule's invalid." No way to know for certain who'll win - you have to go to court and make your case.

All of that said, I also think people put too much pressure on the board - there are CCRs everyone agrees to when they buy the units, so why can't people just read them and comply? If you think they're stupid or unnecessary (and they could be), you don't get to ignore them on that basis. The thing to do is rally your neighbors together and talk to the board about polling the community and amending the documents. Instead, people ignore them or interpret them in a way that suits them and then run to the press or websites like this and complain about the unfairness of it all.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 11/15/2022 6:39 AM
All of that said, I also think people put too much pressure on the board - there are CCRs everyone agrees to when they buy the units, so why can't people just read them and comply? If you think they're stupid or unnecessary (and they could be), you don't get to ignore them on that basis. The thing to do is rally your neighbors together and talk to the board about polling the community and amending the documents. Instead, people ignore them or interpret them in a way that suits them and then run to the press or websites like this and complain about the unfairness of it all.
This captures it, AFAIC.

By my reading, the bar for a court ruling that a covenant is abandoned is quite high. It would take many units doing as Riccardi did, and the board looking the other way for years.

As for waiver of the covenant, Riccardi here would have to have in his hand either (1) written approval from the board at some past point in time, or (2) evidence that the board had approved other owners' additions that were similar to his. Riccardi appears not to have claimed either of these.

This leaves laches, meaning 'does a long enough delay in enforcing the covenant translate to a board not being able to enforce the covenant?' Time and again we see CC&Rs that say, "a failure to enforce covenant such-and-such at time X does not preclude the covenant's lawful enforcement at future time Y." As long as abandonment and waiver are not evident, the courts support the latter CC&R clause.

I think the court's decision here was entirely predictable.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/15/2022 6:28 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/15/2022 6:03 AM
There is a big difference between building a shed and the HOA knowingly allowing an owner to carve up the HOA roof without the necessary building permits.
I think this hypothetical HOA knowingly allowed an owner to build the shed without any knowledge of whether any required building permits were issued.

I believe the courts say time and again that recorded covenants are public notice, and all owners are therefore said to be fully aware of the covenants. I think all posting here agree that the covenants were violated. The owner knew (on account of the public notice) that the covenants were violated. Bad on the owner, and only the owner.

If the COA had previously, expressly approved the rooftop addition, then I can see a court saying the HOA has to pay for all of its removal.

One could present a number of similar hypotheticals: Owner paints her home with polka-dots, in violation of a covenant requirement that the walls be painted one color. The painting is obvious to all neighbors, including the board. Board says nothing. A year later the board seeks to enforce. Who wins?

It's like you want owners to be off the hook because, according to you, the owners have no obligation to read the covenants. I do not buy it.

No, what I want is for the courts to come down HARD on HOA's that don't do their job. It's the only way that people are going to wake up. Your comment that if the "COA had previously, expressly approved the roof addition.." is absolute nonsense. They 'approved' it when they buried their head in the sands and watched a 1500 sq.ft addition happen and did nothing when the previous owner carved up the HOA roof.

What your argument implies is HOA's are free to turn a blind eye and plead ignorance when they don't do their job. I'm in the camp that the HOA should share in the cost of rectifying this and you are in the camp that the almighty HOA should be shielded from incompetence and failure to do their duty.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
It appears California support JohnT38's point of view for a certain category of covenants. In California, (1) the courts have made clear that HOAs do have a duty to enforce the covenants; and (2) California Code of Civ Proc 336(b) places a statute of limitations on enforcing certain covenants. Counting from the time a California board discovers certain types of covenant violations or, through the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have discovered certain types of covenant violations, a board has five years to enforce the covenant. The interested reader may wish to review this: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/L/Laches-Waiver-Estoppel-Statute-of-Limitations

Else by my reading, the courts tend to pound on the original covenants being incredibly binding. In so many words, it seems to me that the courts roar, "A deal's a deal. For the courts to extinguish a covenant would undermine people's right to contract. For 100 years the courts have refused to do so unless such-and-such exists. Such-and-such does not exist here. You knew doing X would violate the covenants. You did X anyway. Pay up." I am pretty sure the Restatement (a compilation of the case law nationwide) pounds on this as the nature of "covenants."

I spoke of "original covenants" because amendments have a different standard to meet. I think this is mostly to preclude a tyranny of the majority using the amendments process.

Several years ago I had argued as JohnT38 did. Then I read more case law on the subject of abandonment, waiver and laches. Now I see a consistency in the way courts decide these things.

Of course a condominium covenant may be viewed quite differently from restrictions on land use such as those that exist for single family, stand alone home HOAs. For a condominium owner that was positioned like Riccardi above, would a California court have ruled as the New York court did here?

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/15/2022 8:08 AM
It appears California support JohnT38's point of view for a certain category of covenants. In California, (1) the courts have made clear that HOAs do have a duty to enforce the covenants; and (2) California Code of Civ Proc 336(b) places a statute of limitations on enforcing certain covenants. Counting from the time a California board discovers certain types of covenant violations or, through the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have discovered certain types of covenant violations, a board has five years to enforce the covenant. The interested reader may wish to review this: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/L/Laches-Waiver-Estoppel-Statute-of-Limitations

Else by my reading, the courts tend to pound on the original covenants being incredibly binding. In so many words, it seems to me that the courts roar, "A deal's a deal. For the courts to extinguish a covenant would undermine people's right to contract. For 100 years the courts have refused to do so unless such-and-such exists. Such-and-such does not exist here. You knew doing X would violate the covenants. You did X anyway. Pay up." I am pretty sure the Restatement (a compilation of the case law nationwide) pounds on this as the nature of "covenants."

I spoke of "original covenants" because amendments have a different standard to meet. I think this is mostly to preclude a tyranny of the majority using the amendments process.

Several years ago I had argued as JohnT38 did. Then I read more case law on the subject of abandonment, waiver and laches. Now I see a consistency in the way courts decide these things.

Of course a condominium covenant may be viewed quite differently from restrictions on land use such as those that exist for single family, stand alone home HOAs. For a condominium owner that was positioned like Riccardi above, would a California court have ruled as the New York court did here?


Keep in mind that what I am saying goes beyond covenants. Any fines, repair costs or city code violations in this particular case should have been given to the HOA since they are the owner of the roof. As the owner, it should be the HOA's responsibility to ensure that all permits and city building codes have been taken care of.

This may not be the way the legal system sees it and it is just my opinion.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The city overrides the HOA. The HOA may be more restrictive but must comply to city and state laws.

The city fines the building. That means the HOA is fined. The HOA then may pass the fine to the owner. The HOA has the right to get their money back for the damages they paid in the fine. That can be very high if a big building. A 1500 foot violation may be a large fine.

So the owner seeking approval from the HOA may be barking up the wrong tree. They should be going to the city to correct. The HOA involvement is to make sure it is in their ACC requirements

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/15/2022 8:29 AM
Keep in mind that what I am saying goes beyond covenants. Any fines, repair costs or city code violations in this particular case should have been given to the HOA since they are the owner of the roof. As the owner [of the roof], it should be the HOA's responsibility to ensure that all permits and city building codes have been taken care of. [bolded emphasis is by Aug]
From what I have read about encroachments, and not unlike the attack MichaelT21's HOA supposedly will be undertaking to correct an encroachment in the near future (battle armor recommended), the covenants typically allow the cost of correcting the encroachment to be passed onto the offending owner.

Even the California case that the Davis-Stirling site cited, with regard to the statute of limitations for enforcing covenants, did not come out all that pretty for the owners who put up a gate that violated the covenants, while the HOA dithered some years. Something about the violation being ongoing, and so when the statute of limitations first tolls is like, this instant and not several years ago? Not sure.

I just want readers here to know that, just because xyz exists (either on one's own property or one's neighbor's property), this does not mean the HOA/COA won't sue your derriere in the future, and successfully, or without question, at great cost to the owner.

I am observing an owner at my former COA fight (in the courts) for his second level hard surface floors as we speak. The covenants prohibit hard surface floors on second levels. Allegedly the Declarant put the floors in some fifteeen years ago. Allegedly. The owner has no proof. I think the owner is doomed. Though I think the COA is doomed for not addressing a number of other, arguably quite a bit more serious violations involving huge encroachments on common area (enlarged patios), with all owners of these units (that violate the covenants) saying, "the Declarant did it. Under the covenants, we're grandfathered." These owners also have no proof.

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