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Can N.Carolina Board member be compensated for doing yard work.

Started by WendyM5 • 36 replies • 534 views

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WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Our bylaws state: No officer shall receive any compensation from the Association for acting as such.

NC law states:
In addition to the limitations of Article 8 of Chapter 55A of the General Statutes,
no financial payments, including payments made in the form of goods and services, may
be made to any officer or member of the association's executive board or to a business,
business associate, or relative of an officer or member of the executive board, except as
expressly provided for in the bylaws or in payments for services or expenses paid on behalf
of the association which are approved in advance by the executive board. (1998-199, s. 1;
2005-422, s. 7; 2020-90, s. 4(d).)

but I read a post on this forums stating that officers acting outside of their normal duties can be compensated for this non board related activity.

I've occasionally planted flowers, and mulched around trees to help the association a bit. However, I no longer want to do the landscaping work for free. They can pay a pro to do it for $1500/year. I'd be willing to do it for maybe $750.

seems like it's in the HOA's financial interest to hire someone who would do it for half price, and does a better job weeding and giving the flowers fertilizers so they look nice all summer. I'm guessing if I was not on the board the other board members would have no problem paying me to do the work. should I try to get compensation or just get off the board and tell them they can hire me if they want to avoid any perception of wrongdoing. the neighborhood could probabaly care less, hardly anyone comes to any meetings and when dues are raised they complain about it.
vis ta vie
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/10/2022 8:08 PM
Our bylaws state: No officer shall receive any compensation from the Association for acting as such.

NC law states:
In addition to the limitations of Article 8 of Chapter 55A of the General Statutes,
no financial payments, including payments made in the form of goods and services, may
be made to any officer or member of the association's executive board or to a business,
business associate, or relative of an officer or member of the executive board, except as
expressly provided for in the bylaws or in payments for services or expenses paid on behalf
of the association which are approved in advance by the executive board. (1998-199, s. 1;
2005-422, s. 7; 2020-90, s. 4(d).)

but I read a post on this forums stating that officers acting outside of their normal duties can be compensated for this non board related activity.

I've occasionally planted flowers, and mulched around trees to help the association a bit. However, I no longer want to do the landscaping work for free. They can pay a pro to do it for $1500/year. I'd be willing to do it for maybe $750.

seems like it's in the HOA's financial interest to hire someone who would do it for half price, and does a better job weeding and giving the flowers fertilizers so they look nice all summer. I'm guessing if I was not on the board the other board members would have no problem paying me to do the work. should I try to get compensation or just get off the board and tell them they can hire me if they want to avoid any perception of wrongdoing. the neighborhood could probabaly care less, hardly anyone comes to any meetings and when dues are raised they complain about it.

In our community our covenants required all workers to be licensed and insured which would rule you out unless you meet this requirement.

In addition, if I was a Board member I would not vote to allow you to do this for a second reason. A cost savings of $750 a year isn't worth listening to other homeowners complain about this type of arrangement with a Board member.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
Not a good idea. If the work is done by a non-licensed landscaper what about injury? if the work is not done well and the Board expects better, will you redo it for no cost? Who determines what will be done and for how much? Our association have volunteers who do a number of tasks for free, if they would like to do them.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
In North carolina there is not license to do landscaping work. Pretty sure that's true in many other states as well.
Our HOA insurance covers board members and even if that were not true one can get month to month insurance for $25.

If it is explained that no one has volunteered to do the flowers and the board went with the lowest price then is there really anything to complain about?
vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Yes, talk to your insurer: there are liability issues for both the HOA and for the member doing the work.

If the board member is not a professional landscape contractor, then you have all of the same issues you have with using volunteers:

* they're not "free": the association must carry workers comp or similar insurance
* you don't get professional quality work, warranties or guarantees, and the volunteer can walk away from the job with no notice
* use of volunteers increases the board's workload since they must manage the volunteers (professional lawn care crews are generally self-managed)
* it's not sustainable, especially in condos: people don't buy property in these communities in order to do more yard work
* it misleads homeowners about the true cost of ownership, and can make it difficult for future boards to raise assessments to the necessary levels (this is especially an issue in states/communities where there are limits on how much a board can raise assessments)

In addition, a volunteer board member enjoys significant protections both from the association's insurance and from the Volunteer Protection Act that limits the volunteer's liability. If the board member accepts payment for a different job, he will lose the second item for the yard work at least - you should talk to your insurance agent about the effect on the association's D&O and other liability protections.

Look before you leap, there are some moving parts below the surface here.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:

* they're not "free": the association must carry workers comp or similar insurance We have to carry insurance anyways and our insurance specifically covers volunteers."

* you don't get professional quality work, warranties or guarantees, and the volunteer can walk away from the job with no notice so can any contracting company. The reason I decided to do the flowers in the first place was becuase they were incompetent and were planting shade flowers in full sun

* use of volunteers increases the board's workload since they must manage the volunteers Not in my case.
* it's not sustainable, especially in condos: people don't buy property in these communities in order to do more yard work not in a condo and doing 1 hour of work 2x a year is fine for me.
* it misleads homeowners about the true cost of ownership, and can make it difficult for future boards to raise assessments to the necessary levels (this is especially an issue in states/communities where there are limits on how much a board can raise assessments) the homeowners save money by hiring a board member that does it for half price.


vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/11/2022 4:20 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/10/2022 8:08 PM
Our bylaws state: No officer shall receive any compensation from the Association for acting as such.

NC law states:
In addition to the limitations of Article 8 of Chapter 55A of the General Statutes,
no financial payments, including payments made in the form of goods and services, may
be made to any officer or member of the association's executive board or to a business,
business associate, or relative of an officer or member of the executive board, except as
expressly provided for in the bylaws or in payments for services or expenses paid on behalf
of the association which are approved in advance by the executive board. (1998-199, s. 1;
2005-422, s. 7; 2020-90, s. 4(d).)

but I read a post on this forums stating that officers acting outside of their normal duties can be compensated for this non board related activity.

I've occasionally planted flowers, and mulched around trees to help the association a bit. However, I no longer want to do the landscaping work for free. They can pay a pro to do it for $1500/year. I'd be willing to do it for maybe $750.

seems like it's in the HOA's financial interest to hire someone who would do it for half price, and does a better job weeding and giving the flowers fertilizers so they look nice all summer. I'm guessing if I was not on the board the other board members would have no problem paying me to do the work. should I try to get compensation or just get off the board and tell them they can hire me if they want to avoid any perception of wrongdoing. the neighborhood could probabaly care less, hardly anyone comes to any meetings and when dues are raised they complain about it.


In our community our covenants required all workers to be licensed and insured which would rule you out unless you meet this requirement.

In addition, if I was a Board member I would not vote to allow you to do this for a second reason. A cost savings of $750 a year isn't worth listening to other homeowners complain about this type of arrangement with a Board member.

OK I respect that view, but that's not my question. My question is paying a board member legal?
vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 5:30 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/11/2022 4:20 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/10/2022 8:08 PM
Our bylaws state: No officer shall receive any compensation from the Association for acting as such.

NC law states:
In addition to the limitations of Article 8 of Chapter 55A of the General Statutes,
no financial payments, including payments made in the form of goods and services, may
be made to any officer or member of the association's executive board or to a business,
business associate, or relative of an officer or member of the executive board, except as
expressly provided for in the bylaws or in payments for services or expenses paid on behalf
of the association which are approved in advance by the executive board. (1998-199, s. 1;
2005-422, s. 7; 2020-90, s. 4(d).)

but I read a post on this forums stating that officers acting outside of their normal duties can be compensated for this non board related activity.

I've occasionally planted flowers, and mulched around trees to help the association a bit. However, I no longer want to do the landscaping work for free. They can pay a pro to do it for $1500/year. I'd be willing to do it for maybe $750.

seems like it's in the HOA's financial interest to hire someone who would do it for half price, and does a better job weeding and giving the flowers fertilizers so they look nice all summer. I'm guessing if I was not on the board the other board members would have no problem paying me to do the work. should I try to get compensation or just get off the board and tell them they can hire me if they want to avoid any perception of wrongdoing. the neighborhood could probabaly care less, hardly anyone comes to any meetings and when dues are raised they complain about it.


In our community our covenants required all workers to be licensed and insured which would rule you out unless you meet this requirement.

In addition, if I was a Board member I would not vote to allow you to do this for a second reason. A cost savings of $750 a year isn't worth listening to other homeowners complain about this type of arrangement with a Board member.


OK I respect that view, but that's not my question. My question is paying a board member legal?

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

This may get into the legal weeds, but first check your bylaws - many bylaws forbid compensation for directors for their work *as board members*. If lawn care isn't part of a board member's duties, then it's not forbidden *by your bylaws*.

If a board member was a professional landscaper, there is no legal reason to prohibit him from bidding on the association's landscape contract. But if the board member doesn't do lawn care as a regular side hustle, then there is a potential for blurred lines.

The optics for the community will be blurred even if the person is a professional.

So... "it's not illegal" does not translate to "it's smart". You have to weigh the potential downsides of doing this (eg. blowback from homeowners who think something shady is going on) against the potential benefits. Different boards in different communities can arrive at different decisions.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 11/11/2022 5:47 AM
... snip ...

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

This may get into the legal weeds, but first check your bylaws - many bylaws forbid compensation for directors for their work *as board members*. If lawn care isn't part of a board member's duties, then it's not forbidden *by your bylaws*.

If a board member was a professional landscaper, there is no legal reason to prohibit him from bidding on the association's landscape contract. But if the board member doesn't do lawn care as a regular side hustle, then there is a potential for blurred lines.

The optics for the community will be blurred even if the person is a professional.

So... "it's not illegal" does not translate to "it's smart". You have to weigh the potential downsides of doing this (eg. blowback from homeowners who think something shady is going on) against the potential benefits. Different boards in different communities can arrive at different decisions.

One further thought:

There may be something in your bylaws or state law stating that board members may not use their positions for financial benefit.

There generally is similar language in any "code of conduct" that board members may be asked/required to sign. And codes of conduct can also require avoiding even the appearance of wrongdoing.(*)

There are always gray areas when you look at ethics. Paying a board member for yard work has firmly stepped into the gray area - did the board member get the gig because of his board service, and how on earth could you prove it either way? This is one of the reasons that board members have to recuse themselves from certain discussions/decisions.

(* I had a job where you could be fired, fined, and permanently lose your professional license for just the appearance of wrongdoing. "But I didn't actually do anything wrong" was no defense.)
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
bylaws also state its the boards duty to : "Cause the common Area,. to be maintained"

so I guess I can't get paid to plant flowers legally even if it saves the HOA money, which is unlogical, but oh well.
vis ta vie
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You need to pay attention to what Cathy said. There's also something called ethics - something may not necessarily be illegal, but the optics are all wrong.

What happens when other board members want to do this or that to get paid? How do you guarantee the quality of work, as Cathy noted? Are you willing to pay income tax on that $750 (which is what would happen if the board hired you to do the work - unless of course you want to dance with the IRS and your state tax department) What happens with you or board member A, B, or C decided what you're being paid isn't enough and now you want more? Will you say nyet if homeowner D, E or F come along and say "well I can do the work if you paid me - or forgive my assessments. Hey, I'm delinquent, can I just work off what I owe by cutting the grass?" Etc., Etc., Etc.

I didn't see where you asked the board if it was ok for you to plan the flowers or mulch the trees, so why are you complaining now about wanting to get paid? YOU made the decision to do this. You also said you wanted to "help the association a bit" - what's the difference between then and now? You don't want to do the work anymore, fine. Just stop it and let the Board hire someone for $1500 a year.

PS - most of us aren't attorneys and what's legal or not in your state may not be the same in ours. You quoted your bylaws and NC law, so you had your answer - you just didn't like it and came here looking for a workaround. Sorry, life doesn't work that way... read your bloody documents and follow them, or get off the board and do something else with your time.
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 6:25 AM
bylaws also state its the boards duty to : "Cause the common Area,. to be maintained"

so I guess I can't get paid to plant flowers legally even if it saves the HOA money, which is unlogical, but oh well.
The way you are reading this phrase seems to assume that the board is supposed to put on gardening gloves and jeans and get out and maintain the common area with their own hands. Not so.

"Cause" means to arrange for xyz to do the work.

In my opinion, assuming you meet bond, insurance and licensing works, then the board may lawfully vote (with you abstaining) to compensate you for this gardening work. I think North Carolina is an open meeting state, correct? Then I advise doing this at an open meeting (even if this subject is of a contractual nature and NC law says the topic may be discussed in Exec Session).

But I grant that I would be quite unhappy with a director doing this. For one: Why couldn't non-director Jones down the block also apply for this work? Is the Board going to offer this chance to make a thousand bucks or so to all owners? Do you see the conflict this might cause?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 11/11/2022 6:32 AM
You need to pay attention to what Cathy said. There's also something called ethics - something may not necessarily be illegal, but the optics are all wrong.

What happens when other board members want to do this or that to get paid? How do you guarantee the quality of work, as Cathy noted? Are you willing to pay income tax on that $750 (which is what would happen if the board hired you to do the work - unless of course you want to dance with the IRS and your state tax department) What happens with you or board member A, B, or C decided what you're being paid isn't enough and now you want more? Will you say nyet if homeowner D, E or F come along and say "well I can do the work if you paid me - or forgive my assessments. Hey, I'm delinquent, can I just work off what I owe by cutting the grass?" Etc., Etc., Etc.

I didn't see where you asked the board if it was ok for you to plan the flowers or mulch the trees, so why are you complaining now about wanting to get paid? YOU made the decision to do this. You also said you wanted to "help the association a bit" - what's the difference between then and now? You don't want to do the work anymore, fine. Just stop it and let the Board hire someone for $1500 a year.

PS - most of us aren't attorneys and what's legal or not in your state may not be the same in ours. You quoted your bylaws and NC law, so you had your answer - you just didn't like it and came here looking for a workaround. Sorry, life doesn't work that way... read your bloody documents and follow them, or get off the board and do something else with your time.

what's wrong did daddy take away your candy. you sure get worked up easy.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/11/2022 6:46 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 6:25 AM
bylaws also state its the boards duty to : "Cause the common Area,. to be maintained"

so I guess I can't get paid to plant flowers legally even if it saves the HOA money, which is unlogical, but oh well.
The way you are reading this phrase seems to assume that the board is supposed to put on gardening gloves and jeans and get out and maintain the common area with their own hands. Not so.

"Cause" means to arrange for xyz to do the work.

In my opinion, assuming you meet bond, insurance and licensing works, then the board may lawfully vote (with you abstaining) to compensate you for this gardening work. I think North Carolina is an open meeting state, correct? Then I advise doing this at an open meeting (even if this subject is of a contractual nature and NC law says the topic may be discussed in Exec Session).

But I grant that I would be quite unhappy with a director doing this. For one: Why couldn't non-director Jones down the block also apply for this work? Is the Board going to offer this chance to make a thousand bucks or so to all owners? Do you see the conflict this might cause?

Yes I do see the potential for conflict if there is competition for doing HOA work. But trust me no one in our HOA wants to do anything. Yeah we get the occassionally big mouth saying they can cut the grass cheaper, but when we publish in our newsletter or annual meeting we are looking for a new contractor, there are no responses. People occassionally ask for handyman yard work help on our Facebook group. no one responds even at what I consider decent pay.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/11/2022 6:46 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 6:25 AM
bylaws also state its the boards duty to : "Cause the common Area,. to be maintained"

so I guess I can't get paid to plant flowers legally even if it saves the HOA money, which is unlogical, but oh well.
The way you are reading this phrase seems to assume that the board is supposed to put on gardening gloves and jeans and get out and maintain the common area with their own hands. Not so.

"Cause" means to arrange for xyz to do the work.

In my opinion, assuming you meet bond, insurance and licensing works, then the board may lawfully vote (with you abstaining) to compensate you for this gardening work. I think North Carolina is an open meeting state, correct? Then I advise doing this at an open meeting (even if this subject is of a contractual nature and NC law says the topic may be discussed in Exec Session).

But I grant that I would be quite unhappy with a director doing this. For one: Why couldn't non-director Jones down the block also apply for this work? Is the Board going to offer this chance to make a thousand bucks or so to all owners? Do you see the conflict this might cause?

why do people keep on bringing up licensing? In what state does one need a license to do yard work? I want to know because I will not live in a state that is that over run with goverenmental oversight.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/11/2022 6:46 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 6:25 AM
bylaws also state its the boards duty to : "Cause the common Area,. to be maintained"

so I guess I can't get paid to plant flowers legally even if it saves the HOA money, which is unlogical, but oh well.
The way you are reading this phrase seems to assume that the board is supposed to put on gardening gloves and jeans and get out and maintain the common area with their own hands. Not so.

"Cause" means to arrange for xyz to do the work.

In my opinion, assuming you meet bond, insurance and licensing works, then the board may lawfully vote (with you abstaining) to compensate you for this gardening work. I think North Carolina is an open meeting state, correct? Then I advise doing this at an open meeting (even if this subject is of a contractual nature and NC law says the topic may be discussed in Exec Session).

But I grant that I would be quite unhappy with a director doing this. For one: Why couldn't non-director Jones down the block also apply for this work? Is the Board going to offer this chance to make a thousand bucks or so to all owners? Do you see the conflict this might cause?

why do people keep on bringing up licensing? In what state does one need a license to do yard work? I want to know because I will not live in a state that is that over run with goverenmental oversight.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 11/11/2022 6:32 AM

What happens when other board members want to do this or that to get paid? How do you guarantee the quality of work, as Cathy noted? Are you willing to pay income tax on that $750 (which is what would happen if the board hired you to do the work - unless of course you want to dance with the IRS and your state tax department) What happens with you or board member A, B, or C decided what you're being paid isn't enough and now you want more? Will you say nyet if homeowner D, E or F come along and say "well I can do the work if you paid me - or forgive my assessments. Hey, I'm delinquent, can I just work off what I owe by cutting the grass?" Etc., Etc., Etc.

same process any other contractor is hired by. open period for submitting quotes, and board decides who has best value.
vis ta vie
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 7:05 AM
why do people keep on bringing up licensing? In what state does one need a license to do yard work?
It's the covenants that often require the use of "licensed" vendors.

I think people here are just trying to cover all bases. I am not there, with a full understanding of what you are doing and what the scale of the work is.

Is this HOA/COA subject to the NC Condominium statute? Because I think what you quoted in the first post is from the NC Condo statute.

Which HOA/COA statutes apply to your HOA/COA?
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 7:02 AM
Yes I do see the potential for conflict if there is competition for doing HOA work. But trust me no one in our HOA wants to do anything. Yeah we get the occassionally big mouth saying they can cut the grass cheaper, but when we publish in our newsletter or annual meeting we are looking for a new contractor, there are no responses. People occassionally ask for handyman yard work help on our Facebook group. no one responds even at what I consider decent pay.
Then as long as there is full disclosure, I would say go for it and see what, if any, response there is from the board and owners.

Disclosure: If I were on this Board, and even though I think it's lawful for you to be paid for this (assuming all covenant licensing yada requirements are met), I would probably vote against a director asking for a contract to do xyz work. It's not out of spite. It's the reasoning already presented that would make me hesitate.

Note: In my state, either statute or the covenants or both required that the vendors arrange and pay for workers' comp insurance.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Wendy,

Unfortunately, you should not be compensated for labor associated with tasks you undertake for your community even if it saves money. You'd need to leave your board of directors and offer to bid on the service as if you were a vendor (which isn't realistic). Also, your time and labor is valuable to you and, if you're doing something to keep other people's dues lower, that's the wrong motivation....you're simply working for free so unwilling-to-volunteer neighbors can "save money."

I see no issue if you feel led to offer some low-risk volunteer labor to your HOA. I have pulled limbs off the path and trimmed small shrubs and limbs to keep things tidy but no ladder climbing, tree climbing and no mowing, etc. I do it because I want to do it and it takes only a small amount of time. I will say that I NEVER compete with the groundskeeping team by working in the flower beds. If there's an issue, I ramp up my on-site management of them.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
A interesting thing just arose at my association. In SC a company does not have to provide Workmen's Comp if the company is 4 or less workers. Our PM talked to our insurance company and for $500 per year our association can have Workmen's Comp for a company(s) with four or less employees. We primarily did this as we are happy with our landscaping company (4 employees) and want to keep them. The owner had said he could not afford Workmen's Comp.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why can't you offer a up a bid like any other company that does the work? You submit the money you want for the job that you seem to be grabbing out of the sky rather than industry standards. (There are standards or general pay rates for every job). If you win the bid, do the work. If you lose the bid, then others do the work.

Why is being licensed and insured so important? Having worked in the industry which this is required. It protects YOU first and your customers second. I am technically an Electrician. Went to college for it, worked, and volunteered as one. I just never got licensed and insured to do the work because did not want to work in that industry. However, I don't have to be licensed/insured to do my OWN home electrical or when I volunteer for Habitat. I do have to be if I was to any work for my HOA or my neighbor next door.

Real life example. An Electrician installs a light fixture on outside of the clubhouse. While doing so, they slip and fall off the ladder. While dangling from the wire it sparks. This sets the clubhouse on fire due to crossed wires. Because they are licensed and insured, it would be their responsibility to pay for the clubhouse burning due to a bad electrical job.

Now if you decide you read the instructions in the box of the fixture that qualifies you as "qualified" YOU would be paying for the burnt clubhouse. Why? Because you are NOT licensed to work as an Electrician. 2nd you don't hold insurance for the work you do. The HOA can come after you for at minimum to pay their deductible which can be upwards to 50K or more.

I don't care if the job doesn't require being "licensed". Any company that is formed be it cutting a yard to installing plumbing should be licensed and insured to conduct business outside of their own home. Otherwise, your just asking for complaints and lawsuits...
Former HOA President
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/11/2022 9:24 AM
I don't care if the job doesn't require being "licensed". Any company that is formed be it cutting a yard to installing plumbing should be licensed and insured to conduct business outside of their own home. Otherwise, your just asking for complaints and lawsuits...

OK please direct me to the place where I can get a north carolina license to practice yard work. While you are at it I want to get a license for flipping burgers and washing cars. Are you serious? The basic concept for requiring a license is to insure basic competency in areas that are safety, public good, etc. As mentioned above I am betting ZERO states in the USA have a licensing program for planting flowers or putting down mulch or cutting grass. so get off your nonsense advice and come join the real world.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/11/2022 9:24 AM
Why can't you offer a up a bid like any other company that does the work? You submit the money you want for the job that you seem to be grabbing out of the sky rather than industry standards. (There are standards or general pay rates for every job). If you win the bid, do the work. If you lose the bid, then others do the work.

Isnt' that exactly what I wrote above?
vis ta vie
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 10:11 AM
As mentioned above I am betting ZERO states in the USA have a licensing program for planting flowers
I for one had in mind possible state requirements to have a business license. Which helps ensure the business is paying its state taxes. Where I lived last, the state was ferocious about collecting these taxes. I know this because of the many eye rolls of people with mom-n-pop business who would come in to have their taxes done at VITA sites and provide extensive proof that they had paid their quarterly receipts yada taxes to the state. The eye rolls were on account of having been busted in the past.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Wendy

Typically a BOD Member does not get paid for performing their BOD duties. Reimbursed expenses such as printer ink is fine. A BOD could hire/contract with a BOD Member for services outside one's BOD duties. When this is discussed the BOD Member being hired cannot speak to nor cast a vote concerning their hiring.

That said, it often does not "look right" so most BODs would not do such.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
So if any other board member does this would anyone have a problem with it?

An owner of a company is different than working a job like fast food. That is apples to oranges not in the same realm
Former HOA President
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/11/2022 6:17 PM
So if any other board member does this would anyone have a problem with it?

An owner of a company is different than working a job like fast food. That is apples to oranges not in the same realm

god you can't admit you are flat out wrong can you. Many jobs do not have any sort of licensing program through the government. cause the government doesn't give a crap if your flowers die. the government does care if an electrician uses too thin of a wire which overheats and burns down your house.

Yard work is one of them. put up or shut up show me one state where landscapers are required by law to have a license to do their work.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/11/2022 1:46 PM
Wendy

Typically a BOD Member does not get paid for performing their BOD duties. Reimbursed expenses such as printer ink is fine. A BOD could hire/contract with a BOD Member for services outside one's BOD duties. When this is discussed the BOD Member being hired cannot speak to nor cast a vote concerning their hiring.

That said, it often does not "look right" so most BODs would not do such.

already been established that cutting grass or planting flowers is not part of their duties. maybe your bylaws state BOD members can't ahve conflict of interests. ours has no conflict of interest provisions. though I do agree with that concept and would abide by it.

fact of the matter is no one else will probably do it cheaper than me and I dont' feel like doing it for free anymore. I'll let the 2 other board members decide and go with that.

PS. Mgt company denied my request for buying $18 worth of printer ink.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/11/2022 7:12 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 7:05 AM

Which HOA/COA statutes apply to your HOA/COA?

these statues apply to our pre 1999 HOA
Important Portions of the Planned Community Act
that Apply to Pre-1999 Communities
Applicable Statutes
Topics Covered
(Pre-1999 Communities)
N.C.G.S. § 47F-1-104
Variation
N.C.G.S. § 47F-2-103
Construction and validity of declaration and bylaws
N.C.G.S. § 47F-2-117
Amendment of declaration
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-102(1) to (6),
(11) to (17)
Powers of owners association
198

N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-103(f)
Executive board members and officers
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-104
Transfer of special declarant rights
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-107(a), (b), (c)
Upkeep of planned community; responsibility and
assessments for damages
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-107.1
Procedures for fines and suspension of planned
community privileges or services
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-108
Meetings
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-115
Assessments for common expenses
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-116
Lien for assessments
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-118
Association records
N.C.G.S. § 47F-3-121
American and State flags and political sign displays
vis ta vie
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You my dear are going down a bad road. I do not need a license to be hired to do my job. I do if I own the company. Not sure why you are so blinded you just want see what you want to see. Others see it differently and will sue you one day for it ..
Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 6:51 PM
maybe your bylaws state BOD members can't ahve conflict of interests. ours has no conflict of interest provisions.
North Carolina Nonprofit Corporation Act's requirements when a conflict of interest arises:

55A-8-31. Director conflict of interest.

(a) A conflict of interest transaction is a transaction with the corporation in which a director of the corporation has a direct or indirect interest. A conflict of interest transaction is not voidable by the corporation solely because of the director's interest in the transaction if any one of the following is true:

(1) The material facts of the transaction and the director's interest were disclosed or known to the board of directors or a committee of the board and the board or committee authorized, approved, or ratified the transaction;

(2) The material facts of the transaction and the director's interest were disclosed or known to the members entitled to vote and they authorized, approved, or ratified the transaction; or

(3) The transaction was fair to the corporation.

(b) For purposes of this section, a director of the corporation has an indirect interest in a transaction if:

(1) Another entity in which he has a material financial interest or in which he is a general partner is a party to the transaction; or

(2) Another entity of which he is a director, officer, or trustee is a party to the transaction and the transaction is or should be considered by the board of directors of the corporation.

(c) For purposes of subdivision (a)(1) of this section, a conflict of interest transaction is authorized, approved, or ratified if it receives the affirmative vote of a majority of the directors on the board of directors (or on the committee) who have no direct or indirect interest in the transaction, but a transaction shall not be authorized, approved, or ratified under this section by a single director. If a majority of the directors who have no direct or indirect interest in the transaction vote to authorize, approve, or ratify the transaction, a quorum is present for the purpose of taking action under this section. The presence of, or a vote cast by, a director with a direct or indirect interest in the transaction does not affect the validity of any action taken under subdivision (a)(1) of this section if the transaction is otherwise authorized, approved, or ratified as provided in that subdivision.

(d) For purposes of subdivision (a)(2) of this section, a conflict of interest transaction is authorized, approved, or ratified by the members if it receives a majority of the votes entitled to be counted under this subsection. Votes cast by or voted under the control of a director who has a direct or indirect interest in the transaction, and votes cast by or voted under the control of an entity described in subdivision (b)(1) of this section, shall not be counted in a vote of members to determine whether to authorize, approve, or ratify a conflict of interest transaction under subdivision (a)(2) of this section. The vote of these members, however, is counted in determining whether the transaction is approved under other sections of this Chapter. A majority of the votes, whether or not present, that are entitled to be cast in a vote on the transaction under this subsection constitutes a quorum for the purpose of taking action under this section.

(e) The articles of incorporation, bylaws, or a resolution of the board may impose additional requirements on conflict of interest transactions. (1985 (Reg. Sess., 1986), c. 801, s. 26; 1993, c. 398, s. 1.)

-- From https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByChapter/Chapter_55A.html

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 11/11/2022 6:51 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/11/2022 1:46 PM
Wendy

Typically a BOD Member does not get paid for performing their BOD duties. Reimbursed expenses such as printer ink is fine. A BOD could hire/contract with a BOD Member for services outside one's BOD duties. When this is discussed the BOD Member being hired cannot speak to nor cast a vote concerning their hiring.

That said, it often does not "look right" so most BODs would not do such.


already been established that cutting grass or planting flowers is not part of their duties. maybe your bylaws state BOD members can't ahve conflict of interests. ours has no conflict of interest provisions. though I do agree with that concept and would abide by it.

fact of the matter is no one else will probably do it cheaper than me and I dont' feel like doing it for free anymore. I'll let the 2 other board members decide and go with that.

PS. Mgt company denied my request for buying $18 worth of printer ink.

Such a reimbursement (ink) is up to your BOD, not your management company.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Augustine how dare you not post something that supports the OP's point of view. You trying to give them a dose of reality or something?
Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/12/2022 9:02 AM
Augustine how dare you not post something that supports the OP's point of view. You trying to give them a dose of reality or something?
At present, if a board majority looked at the numbers; had good arguments for the OP being qualified pursuant to the governing documents and statutes; had an okay from the HOA insurer; and voted in an open session on this; then I think I would either be fine with the OP getting paid for this work, or I would not care enough to dither over it. Especially if apathy is high in the HOA. If owners subsequently revolt, an honest and full explanation of the board's reasoning should be made. Then see if other owners line up to apply to do this work next year.

Else I am happy the OP figured out that her HOA is subject to the NC Planned Community Act. Now she knows where to find the NC Nonprofit Corporation Act, too.

Disclosure:
I think the law should be changed to allow directors to be compensated. I do not mean chump change.

Of necessity, many directors work as hard or harder than City Councilors and County Commissioners. For any given city or county, both of the latter are typically paid something that is not insignificant.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/11/2022 7:56 PM
You my dear are going down a bad road. I do not need a license to be hired to do my job. I do if I own the company. Not sure why you are so blinded you just want see what you want to see. Others see it differently and will sue you one day for it ..

you are talking about a business license which is totally different than a licensing for being an electrician or engineer which many governments require for safety and public benefit. that fact that you couldn't' figure out the difference between what I was talking about is scary. And yes many professions do need a license to do their job. For example one can't cut your fingernails without getting a license and taking 6 hrs of yearly training in South Carolina.

landscaping is not one of those jobs that requires governmental oversight/licensing.
vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
thanks, appreciate the references.
vis ta vie

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