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DIY Reserve Study

Started by MichaelT21 • 36 replies • 419 views

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MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
The reserve study firm has done a crummy job for us. I don't like how they lay out their report (it's really confusing), they have the wrong quantities of reserve items in our study, the wrong estimated lives for things. It's a poorly written document that does not present itself as an accurate picture of our reserve items or the funding status of our reserve fund. I have to present it tonight and frankly the document is so poorly written it's embarassing.

I can spend a ton next year with the reserve study company and have them fix their document to my exacting standards. Or I can simply write my own reserve study. It's not rocket science. I can get it done more accurately and have it paint a proper picture.

I believe our state laws make reference to a reserve study professional. I'm thinking that probably a DIY reserve study wouldn't pack muster with the state or our homoewners, even if accurate.

Thoughts?
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Michael,

I can agree that experienced HOA directors, even they've been in office for few Reserve Fund projects, can give better insight than a one-off visit from an engineer.

That said, I think you should try to bridge the two needs and create a professional reserve study that accepts experienced feedback. If you're that person, it's you. If you're new to the board, it's likely not you due to time on the "job."
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/03/2022 9:13 AM
The reserve study firm has done a crummy job for us. I don't like how they lay out their report (it's really confusing), they have the wrong quantities of reserve items in our study, the wrong estimated lives for things.
-- How old is this reserve company? Are they national or local?

-- Contact the company for a sit-down to review what changes you want and see if they will put their stamp of approval on the "expertise" you claim to have for each of these changes vs. the expertise they have.

-- What you think is poor writing may be the authors using the language of the industry.

-- I might also have some concerns about what any given reserve study did. However, and assuming the company's PE-licensed civil engineer is agreeable to any changes the board requested, I would never trust an individual director's reserve study over the reserve study produced by a well-established reserve company.

-- I think having the wrong whatever in the reserve study is often going to be the fault of the board. After all, the HOA pays for the reserve study. The HOA Board had darned well better read and question a draft of the study before the final version is issued.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Michael,

See the following thread on this forum:

Subject: Reserve Studies/Funds 101

Please do not reactivate the thread with comments (normal issues with old threads)
Since it is an old thread, there are some broken links.
Some of the broken links were corrected later in the thread. Some were not.
Some links lead to different content then was initially there.

Near the end of the thread there are some good links, including informational videos (no, not made by me).

A good example on how to do a reserve study is:

State of California, Department of Real Estate RESERVE STUDY GUIDELINES for Homeowner Association Budgets
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
For the archives, the Washington HOA statute has a lot of detail on what reserve studies must include. This even includes certain wording that is required. Also, from the statute, "At least every three years, an updated reserve study must be prepared and based upon a visual site inspection conducted by a reserve study professional."

I would have zero confidence in the abilities of a director who did not go to the trouble to even read the pertinent statute sections here.

MichaelT21, after a few years posting here at HOATalk, why is it you are oblivious to Washington's statutory requirements for reserve studies? Are you seriously still not capable of searching and reading the Washington HOA statute?
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:

AugustinD,

I did reference the RCWs and the requirement to hire a reserve study professional in my first post. I wrote it in a subtle way but it is there.

To answer yours and Kerry's question about why I don't read RCWs. In Washington State, we have three (I think) different acts that govern HOAs/COAs. The first is the old HOA act which applies to HOAs incorporated prior to 2018. The second is WUCIOA, which applies to HOAs incorporated since 2018/2019. And then there is the Condo Act which governs condiminums. Here's the rub - certain parts of each act override other portions of other acts. Attorneys who have followed the progression of the law know exactly which RCW applies to which type of community in which situation. I do not.

Thus, I do not know if the RCW that you cited applies to our HOA. I have an e-mail out to the property manager on that subject. I simply do not know.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:

I explained that above. It is not about whether I do or do not believe it applies. I simply don't know because of the three acts and how various parts override other acts. I have tried to read the RCWs in the past and been mistaken, so I simply say "I do not know if RCW XX.YY.ZZ applies" when people throw statutes at me. If the Board thinks that the question needs clarification, we can send it to the HOA attorney and they can answer it at $375/hr.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
I agree with your concerns. I would:

-- make a full list of all the obvious and indisputable errors.

-- Present the list to the board.

-- These mistakes on the easy issues may very well imply larger mistakes on bigger issues. Like the spreadsheets themselves. At an open meeting where you present the list of mistakes, I would indicate I had no faith in the reserve company.

-- Ask for the board's approval to ask for a refund. Because you are having to give too much time to correct obvious mistakes that the company was paid not to make.

-- Interview and hire another reserve company. Explain the problems you had in the past.

-- If the company will not issue a refund, require a sit-down at no additional charge where you go through each page and each line item and ask for this or that correction.

Else because you cannot figure out which Washington statute sections apply (which is pretty damn easy), then I think your completing the reserve study is not appropriate and may very well be in violation of the law.

Do you need help parsing the statutes? Because this by far is the more important question at this time IMO.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
The point of reserve studies is to have an accurate assessment of the reserve study done to ensure that the association is making appropriate contributions to the reserve fund each year. I will argue, regardless of what the law says, that an accurate DIY study is more valuable than a garbage study done by a reserve study professional. The law assumes that a reserve study professional does a good job. I have, as evidence, in my hand a garbage report produced by a professional.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Then there's your answer: You do not know how to read the two statutes. But this particular topic (reserves studies) is addressed at length in the two statutes. Your HOA has to spend the money to get an attorney's answer to your questions.

I think you are wasting space at this forum.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
But you also assert that you do not even know what the statutes require for a reserve study. So IMO right off the bat, you fail the test to be qualified to prepare a reserve study.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:

This forum is HOATalk, not HOALegalTalk. You answer every question through the lens of an attorney. I will say that we run our HOA through the lens of a general contractor or parks manager. We rarely consult the attorney for advice because people are fine with "good enough" answers. You like to work with precision and accuracy in legal matters.

No, I don't know how to read statutes and interpret them properly. I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV.

However, I do know how to count mailboxes in our community, which at the moment, appears to be a more valuable task than interpreting statutes.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I was the main point of contact with our reserves specialist, who works for national firm, for about 7 years until my retirement from the board last year. Every year he, I, and the treasurer or the entire board would adjust some of his estimates. We have about 100 components in 3 reserve accounts. He was willing if the Board agreed and if the adjustments were correct. I was able to prove every modification that was needed. He did not charge our HOA extra for email exchanges with me nor for an "extra" meeting with the board if needed.

Here's just one example: Our HOA is responsible for maintaining & repairing the sidewalks on two side of our sq. block condo buildings. The RS estimated the cost to resurface at a huge amount. But I did little research & found the City would pay half.

I'm certain you can have a virtual meeting with your analyst or specialist at no cost to your HOA. This is where you point out the missing 4th well, and the incorrect count of some components. Was his most recent study based on an onsite visit? You can show him photos to bolster your claims. Email him today with your requested adjustments.

First, MichaelT, it does seem your reserves guy is a "professional?" Is he designated as a professional reserves analyst (PRA) or as a Reserves Specialist? These both are credentialed professionals who have met pretty rigorous qualifications in terms of experience. There is, by the way no requirement that either be a P.E (Prof.Eng.) or any other kind of engineer. If a national firm, though, why doesn't it have a RS in a large city near you?

Given WA requirements, I urge you to have your RS adjust his study to reflect reality vs. trying to do your own. You really don't have many components except for the wells and their parts, so it shouldn't be difficult for the RS at all.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I handle the reserve study for a number of my clients, the main reason being I have to input all the components into the accounting system to disburse funds as per their allocated percentages on a monthly basis. A reserve study is NOT a study, but just a list of items an association is responsible to maintain and repair. I will only handle reserve study once the initial study has been done. If for some reason one was not done or the HOA has no record, then I will arrange for a new "initial" study.

I have been doing some extensive research on self managed HOA's in California and there are over 25,000 of them, what a mess. I have never agreed with MichaelT in the past, but he is correct, this is NOT HOALegalTalk. I suggest someone start their own forum or work with HOATalk to separate the two.
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
-- How old is this reserve company? Are they national or local?

-- Contact the company for a sit-down to review what changes you want and see if they will put their stamp of approval on the "expertise" you claim to have for each of these changes vs. the expertise they have.

-- What you think is poor writing may be the authors using the language of the industry.

-- I might also have some concerns about what any given reserve study did. However, and assuming the company's PE-licensed civil engineer is agreeable to any changes the board requested, I would never trust an individual director's reserve study over the reserve study produced by a well-established reserve company.

-- I think having the wrong whatever in the reserve study is often going to be the fault of the board. After all, the HOA pays for the reserve study. The HOA Board had darned well better read and question a draft of the study before the final version is issued.

THIS!!! THIS!!! THIS!!!

Our recent Reserve Study company was very open to questions, suggestions, and changes to our Reserve Study within their, if any, obligated parameters. We didn't sign of on it or pay the remaining balance until agreed upon.

The very 1st RS we had done 9 years ago was thrown in a corner to collect dust by the board at the time. The board paid for it, never looked at, and admittedly didn't even know what it represented.

Don't be that board.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I think that a board member could do a reasonable study if:

* They have a professional study that they can use as a model.

* They have the necessary skills to estimate remaining useful life of all of the components in the study.

* They have the math skills for projecting future replacement costs for all components.

IMHO the second and third items are probably beyond most board members.

In addition, if you live in a condo community or if your HOA owns buildings, you have the problem of board members climbing on ladders to evaluate the current conditions of the roofs and siding. I strongly suggest that you don't want this to happen, and this would be a deal-breaker. Professionals have the necessary licenses, insurance, etc. so that the association doesn't have an uninsured accident that it needs to pay for.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I, too, think Michael's assn could do its own study AFTER they get an initial onsite visit by a credentialed specialist that has provided the correct information for items that meet the national 4-part standards for items that should go in the study.

So, I agree with Max here & Cathy. The reason is, however, because MichaeT's HOA has very few reserve components. Their 4 wells and the parts for them, e.g., pumps, motors, lines to their service area each will be in the study all with their own remaining useful life (RUL) & est. replacement cost.

What other components do you have, Michael, beyond playground equipment & (I think) picnic tables? Roads? Street lighting? Fencing?

Do note Pat's response, Micheal, also a long-time experienced board member, where consulting with the reserves analyst to make corrections was easy.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
To follow-up with Cathy

I always work with a reserve study already performed for the association. I used two Craftman's Construction books for useful life, estimated costs and units of measures.

I use a reserve study created by someone who came to this forum some years ago and it is updated about twice a year. I have used two of the national firms software and this is considerably easier to use and far more accurate.

As Pat eluded to, most reserve studies performed sit in a corner collected dust never to be heard from again. While the study is just a list of items, most people do not realize it is a valuable financial tool.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 11/03/2022 9:13 AM
The reserve study firm has done a crummy job for us. I don't like how they lay out their report (it's really confusing), they have the wrong quantities of reserve items in our study, the wrong estimated lives for things. It's a poorly written document that does not present itself as an accurate picture of our reserve items or the funding status of our reserve fund. I have to present it tonight and frankly the document is so poorly written it's embarassing.

I can spend a ton next year with the reserve study company and have them fix their document to my exacting standards. Or I can simply write my own reserve study. It's not rocket science. I can get it done more accurately and have it paint a proper picture.

I believe our state laws make reference to a reserve study professional. I'm thinking that probably a DIY reserve study wouldn't pack muster with the state or our homoewners, even if accurate.

Thoughts?

From my 10,000ft perspective into the situation, I think the best use of your time and energy is for you to understand the Reserve Study, no matter how bad it is, and work to getting a better one next year. I think that the benefits of having at least a single well-informed person on the Board will significantly outweigh anything else you (or anyone) could do by re-writing a document.

Frankly, you have ***got*** to have something better to do with your time.

BillD
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
I saw the same with a certain condo association where I owned a unit. From 2007 (when Declarant turnover occurred) to 2017, the board not only ignored the study. The Board also regularly pilloried the most recent one as not reflecting the outstanding maintenance that the COA's manager made sure was performed. The board/manager even attached a note to the front of the reserve study saying this. Obviously neither the board nor manager questioned anything specific in the study -- not remaining useful life nor estimated expenses. Last I heard is that percent funded remains below 30%. The parking lot pavement is completely 'gatored. The roofs are due for replacement within a few years.

For the archives, the problems I have with having a director or manager perform the reserve study, especially for a condo association:

-- A significant part of a reserve study is laying out a schedule of reserve contributions and assessment increases as needed to raise the percent funded figure to a reasonable value that will preclude special assessments. It's one thing to estimate useful remaining life and cost of replacement and plug and chug these numbers into a spreadsheet. It's entirely another to come up with a schedule of contributing to reserves and raising the assessment to keep the COA safe. The latter requires judgment based in specific, reserve study experience.

-- The director or manager will likely be the only one who understands what is in it. Meaning there is virtually zero check on the work she or he does. There is much to be said to have multiple pairs of eyes looking at a reserve study, especially eyes that are experienced.

-- I am sure those rare HOAs/COAs that have their reserve study done by a director or the manager have been comfortable for some years now assuming a certain, relatively low inflation rate. However, what inflation rate is appropriate for the future? What that number should be requires some training and discussion.

-- The older the building, IMO the more experience is needed to estimate useful lives and incorporate a cushion for unpredictability of failure.

-- Federal loan programs now have stricter requirements for a HOAs/COAs' reserve funding. Do these programs require that a COA's reserve study be completed by a professional?

-- To me, for condominiums, fiduciary duty demands that professionals be used.

-- I agree with CathyA3's comment about directors and managers climbing on ladders, crawling into dark spaces, et cetera. Don't do it.

For a HOA (and not a COA) with very little infrastructure, it's more likely (though far from certain) that I could get behind a director or manager performing the study. For HOAs with little infrastructure who feel comfortable doing their own in-house study, I recommend people consider buying a DIY kit that is available from some reserve companies for a few hundred dollars.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
There must be a big difference among states. The reserve study in CA associations must be mailed with the annual budget to Owners every single year. So all owners have a copy of the summary. In most CA HOAs, I assume the complete study is posted on the HOA's website.

So even if ignorant derelict CA board members throw the study in a corner to gather dust, there are plenty of ways to review it.

To get a start on a first reserve study, a reserve study must be submitted to the DRE (Dept. of R.E) in CA to approve a new HOA. That study is easy to find. The first reserves study by the developer's "people" may be inaccurate, but it IS a start for the first reserve analyst or specialist to work off of.

The PM or a board member must be keep records to update the reserve analyst every year with what components were replaced, their cost, brand, etc. This person should also inform the RS of any repairs to reserve components. Or of any components that seem to be "wearing out" prematurely. that person should also inform the entire board of their updates.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Re: reserve studies sitting in the corner gathering dust....

When we did our last study, I asked the company to also provide their results in a spreadsheet. I made a copy and added some columns where I could match the yearly projected totals in our reserve accounts to projected spending. This made it easy to figure out how long we could tie up portions of the money in CDs or bonds, and still be sure to have enough available when needed without having to liquidate the CDs before their maturity dates.

It's a useful tool, and I have no idea why people wouldn't use it unless their community has little in the way of reserve needs.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:

Getting a bit off topic...

Nobody expects board members to be lawyers, but IMHO being able to read legalese well enough to know when to call the professionals for advice is an essential skill. The CC&Rs and bylaws are legal documents written in legalese, and understanding what they say is basic. Yeah, it can be tough at first - but the more you do it and the more questions you ask, the better you'll get at it.

Another of our regulars (Barbara?) once commented that many people are unaware of the extent to which community associations are regulated by law. Directors have to understand this if they want to do their jobs well.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Posted By KerryL1 on 11/03/2022 11:50 AM
I was the main point of contact with our reserves specialist, who works for national firm, for about 7 years until my retirement from the board last year. Every year he, I, and the treasurer or the entire board would adjust some of his estimates. We have about 100 components in 3 reserve accounts. He was willing if the Board agreed and if the adjustments were correct. I was able to prove every modification that was needed. He did not charge our HOA extra for email exchanges with me nor for an "extra" meeting with the board if needed.

Here's just one example: Our HOA is responsible for maintaining & repairing the sidewalks on two side of our sq. block condo buildings. The RS estimated the cost to resurface at a huge amount. But I did little research & found the City would pay half.

I'm certain you can have a virtual meeting with your analyst or specialist at no cost to your HOA. This is where you point out the missing 4th well, and the incorrect count of some components. Was his most recent study based on an onsite visit? You can show him photos to bolster your claims. Email him today with your requested adjustments.

First, MichaelT, it does seem your reserves guy is a "professional?" Is he designated as a professional reserves analyst (PRA) or as a Reserves Specialist? These both are credentialed professionals who have met pretty rigorous qualifications in terms of experience. There is, by the way no requirement that either be a P.E (Prof.Eng.) or any other kind of engineer. If a national firm, though, why doesn't it have a RS in a large city near you?

Given WA requirements, I urge you to have your RS adjust his study to reflect reality vs. trying to do your own. You really don't have many components except for the wells and their parts, so it shouldn't be difficult for the RS at all.



We have not done our initial reserve study yet, but what you described is how I would envision it. I think we will need to have a LOT of discussions with the company that conducts the study, because there are likely to be a number of issues like you described. Our current pool furniture is extravagant - it as it ages out we might decide to replace it with less costly items. We have 25 pieces of very expensive gym equipment, but it is mainly unused, so we could easily get by with 15 or 20, so I assume the reserve study could be based on 15 or 20 instead of 25. I can come up with several of these off the top of my head.

It seems to me that it would never be as simple as writing a check to a compa y and getting back a number.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Posted By DavidG45 on 11/04/2022 4:48 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 11/03/2022 11:50 AM
I was the main point of contact with our reserves specialist, who works for national firm, for about 7 years until my retirement from the board last year. Every year he, I, and the treasurer or the entire board would adjust some of his estimates. We have about 100 components in 3 reserve accounts. He was willing if the Board agreed and if the adjustments were correct. I was able to prove every modification that was needed. He did not charge our HOA extra for email exchanges with me nor for an "extra" meeting with the board if needed.

Here's just one example: Our HOA is responsible for maintaining & repairing the sidewalks on two side of our sq. block condo buildings. The RS estimated the cost to resurface at a huge amount. But I did little research & found the City would pay half.

I'm certain you can have a virtual meeting with your analyst or specialist at no cost to your HOA. This is where you point out the missing 4th well, and the incorrect count of some components. Was his most recent study based on an onsite visit? You can show him photos to bolster your claims. Email him today with your requested adjustments.

First, MichaelT, it does seem your reserves guy is a "professional?" Is he designated as a professional reserves analyst (PRA) or as a Reserves Specialist? These both are credentialed professionals who have met pretty rigorous qualifications in terms of experience. There is, by the way no requirement that either be a P.E (Prof.Eng.) or any other kind of engineer. If a national firm, though, why doesn't it have a RS in a large city near you?

Given WA requirements, I urge you to have your RS adjust his study to reflect reality vs. trying to do your own. You really don't have many components except for the wells and their parts, so it shouldn't be difficult for the RS at all.



We have not done our initial reserve study yet, but what you described is how I would envision it. I think we will need to have a LOT of discussions with the company that conducts the study, because there are likely to be a number of issues like you described. Our current pool furniture is extravagant - it as it ages out we might decide to replace it with less costly items. We have 25 pieces of very expensive gym equipment, but it is mainly unused, so we could easily get by with 15 or 20, so I assume the reserve study could be based on 15 or 20 instead of 25. I can come up with several of these off the top of my head.

It seems to me that it would never be as simple as writing a check to a compa y and getting back a number.


The reserve study should be based on a 1:1 replacement of what you have there. i.e., extravagant pool furniture with extravagant pool furniture, 25 pieces of gym equipment with 25 pieces of gym equipment, etc.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:

This is a great idea. Our 2023 budget includes a new Reserve Study, I’m going to ask for a spreadsheet version, too.

BillD
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Do you have a reserve study that your developer may have done as might have been required to submit to your state, David?

When you do have your study done, if the board agrees you can request the RS to remove certain items from the study if you will never replace them. The gym equipment will be itemized in a good full study because different equipment has different prices and different useful lives. The RS will write that the board will never replace x, y, z, etc. so they are removed from the study per the Board's request.

In the case of the pool furniture, if it's really sturdy, perhaps it needs a long useful life. If it is strapped, slung, or has cushions, you want a separate reserve entry for the replacement of those. Our original Brown-Jordon aluminum poolside furniture is 21years old, stays poolside 24/7. and will easily last another 5 years with occasional touch-up paint. We just reslung it for the third time, though.

But as our RS pointed out about a different component --sometimes items "ugly out" before they wear out, i.e., they become "aesthetically obsolete" and the board will want to replace them.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quite so. Unfortunately I think newbie directors in particular for decades thought their only obligation when it comes to reserve studies is to have a reserve study done, then store it and ignore it. I mean, does the law seriously contemplate that volunteer directors will become skilled in: reading the law, understanding infrastructure needs; and accounting? Yes, it does. It is part of the expectation that economies grow and grow more, or we all will end up in ruin, raising our own crops, disinterested in working for Fortune 500 companies; and owning stocks which build one's wealth off of... you guessed it: The expected growth of economies.

Now, much more education and discussion about reserve studies seems to be taking place. I think this is due to:

-- a slew of condo construction in the 1960s/70s (when the law changed on mortgages for condo units?) has now yielded buildings falling apart in large numbers and associations finding they are short on funding.

-- the 2021 Surfside condo collapse;

-- inflation rates that have not been seen in decades aggravating COA/HOA boards' efforts to formulate budgets with reasonable dues increases.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Posted By KerryL1 on 11/04/2022 10:03 AM
Do you have a reserve study that your developer may have done as might have been required to submit to your state, David?

When you do have your study done, if the board agrees you can request the RS to remove certain items from the study if you will never replace them. The gym equipment will be itemized in a good full study because different equipment has different prices and different useful lives. The RS will write that the board will never replace x, y, z, etc. so they are removed from the study per the Board's request.

In the case of the pool furniture, if it's really sturdy, perhaps it needs a long useful life. If it is strapped, slung, or has cushions, you want a separate reserve entry for the replacement of those. Our original Brown-Jordon aluminum poolside furniture is 21years old, stays poolside 24/7. and will easily last another 5 years with occasional touch-up paint. We just reslung it for the third time, though.

But as our RS pointed out about a different component --sometimes items "ugly out" before they wear out, i.e., they become "aesthetically obsolete" and the board will want to replace them.


All good points. When we begin our reserves study I expect to be on here asking a lot of questions! As for the developer, he did not conduct a reserve study. The community was started in 2016, but the amenities were not completed until early 2021. We did not start a reserves fund until this 2022 budget year, and it seemed to be a random number our PMC pulled out of thin air.

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