Unproductive board member that argues all of the time

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

On our Board, we have one Board member who appears to be a grumpy old man and argues all of the time with the most active board member (me). It seems like this Board member is trying to stop all spending, all work, all rule enforcement, etc.

I'm not sure if this person philosophically disagrees with the existence of the HOA, is frustrated with me personally, or just finds it easier to sit around and argue rather than accomplish volunteer work. But every single idea and proposal that I have is met with resistance, almost by definition.

Anyone have one of these on their board?

Best way to handle the chronic arguer?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Give them something to do and handle a project. Usually they quit or succeed. Gets them out of your hair.

Former HOA President

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Has he suggested any alternatives to whatever is being discussed? Has he offered to do additional research. is his behavior disrupting the board's ability to address all items on the agenda?

You won't always get along with all board members or homeowners, but the primary concern is the board's ability to focus on association business. Ithis person gas a right to say what he wants,, but if a vote us taken and he's outvoted, what's the problem?

If this is recent behavior, you and another board member could talk with him privately to see if there are underlying issues that may be affecting his behavior. For example, you said he's always complaining about spending - could it be he's concerned about the prospect of increased assessments that he might not be able to afford? Perhaps other homeowners have talked to him about this and so he's trying to address those issues.

Sone people don't come out and say what they really feel and so good leaders try to foster an atmosphere of mutual respect and openness to listen to opposing views. To be blunt, you've had dozens of posts on this website that indicate you have an attitude towards anyone who thinks differently than you (like the arch rival attorney).

Stop making things personal- just because there's a disagreement doesn't necessarily mean someone's unworthy of being listened to because you feel he's a grumpy old man or she's not a very good attorney in your opinion. Perhaps if you behaved as if you really want to get their opinions and shut your mouth once in while to listen, you'd make some headway.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

To avoid going nuts with such a director, sticking to the agenda and basic parliamentary procedure is the key. Said procedure being, for example:

President-Director: The meeting now has a quorum of directors and begins now. Item 1 on the agenda is removal of four dead oak trees, with the addresses given on the agenda. I motion to invite bids from the following three tree removal companies: X, Y and Z. Is there any discussion?

Director Annoyee: Are you sure these trees are dead?

President-Director: Here are the photos. The landscaper said they are dead. Large branches have been falling, risking injury to life and the cars parked along the street there. You had notice and an opportunity to check yourself.

Director Annoyee: Can we get an arborist?

President-Director: I am satisfied they are dead. Any other discussion?

Director Annoyee: Can we add two more companies to the bid?

President-Director: I am calling a vote. All in favor of the motion to obtain bids from X, Y and Z to remove the oak trees at ____?

This is not foolproof. But the more you can ignore the guy once it becomes clear he has not done his homework, the more at peace you may be, and the smoother the meetings may be.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

He's fine during meetings. Usually sits there quietly.

Then after the meeting sends a fiery e-mail to the property manager about how he disagreed with something the Board decided and he is writing to her to complain. Or he proposes and votes in favor to do Task X in June. Then sends me a grumpy e-mail about why are we doing Task X a few months later, as if he never proposed it or voted in favor of it in the first place. With regards to spending money, he has been a "yes" vote on each proposal that the Board has moved forward. Then when the bills come in, and he doesn't like the number, he says we should just not pay vendors until the spring when we have more cash on hand.

I don't have a problem with dissent, discussion, and debate. I have a problem for people who vote in favor of stuff, and then send out grumpy e-mails months after the fact complaining of the stuff being accomplished that they voted in favor of.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

What I'm saying is that all I hear from this particular board member between meetings and when off-the-record is complaints about what we are doing as an HOA. Then at meetings he votes favor of everything and sits quietely with adding little to the discussion. I have repeatedly requested more discussion, more banter, and more conversation during meetings, but he chooses not to speak up. He seems to be much more confident behind the keyboard and between meetings.

I'm reasonably sure that he is uncomfortable discussing difficult community issues in front of homeowners. We had 18 homeowners present at our last meeting, and he seemed very uncomfortable. And then as soon as the meeting was done, the e-mails started coming, usually just to me only, or just to the property manager, and occasionally to the whole board.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/26/2022 9:11 AM
I don't have a problem with dissent, discussion, and debate. I have a problem for people who vote in favor of stuff, and then send out grumpy e-mails months [snip]

Even better. It's on him to figure out he has to ask for xyz to be added to the agenda for the next board meeting. Else any discussion by email that is not an emergency is to be ignored.

Now IMO it's on you to not let his emails get to you.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/26/2022 9:18 AM
I'm reasonably sure that he is uncomfortable discussing difficult community issues in front of homeowners. We had 18 homeowners present at our last meeting, and he seemed very uncomfortable. And then as soon as the meeting was done, the e-mails started coming, usually just to me only, or just to the property manager, and occasionally to the whole board.

He's attempting evasion of open meeting covenants and statutes. Unacceptable. Ignore any efforts to do things behind closed doors. Explain to him once and once only that the law and covenants require that the board discuss non-emergency issues not by email but in open meetings.

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/26/2022 8:01 AM
On our Board, we have one Board member who appears to be a grumpy old man and argues all of the time with the most active board member (me). It seems like this Board member is trying to stop all spending, all work, all rule enforcement, etc.

I'm not sure if this person philosophically disagrees with the existence of the HOA, is frustrated with me personally, or just finds it easier to sit around and argue rather than accomplish volunteer work. But every single idea and proposal that I have is met with resistance, almost by definition.

Anyone have one of these on their board?

Best way to handle the chronic arguer?

I know this will fall on deaf ears, but . . .

I suggest first examining yourself, your actions, your conduct, your decision-making, your expectations. You are overboard in most aspects and have unrealistic/distorted expectations. Instead of seeing this person as someone who must be handled, argued with, and/or defeated at every turn, instead try to find out this person's motives, wants, needs, expectations, etc. and figure out how to change yourself so you can work with them and they can work with you.

First step is to talk to the actual person who you seem to be having trouble with. Turning here to an anonymous group of internet people may give you other ideas, but if you can't step up and talk to the actual person, then I doubt you'll have success in this area.

Evidence here shows that you aren't someone who is satisfied with maintaining status quo. And status quo shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing. Status quo in the best quality and at the best price is essentially the Board's charter. You always have some new idea, project, proposal, obscure question, suggestion. You know what each of these mean? Additional work for one or more volunteer Board Members! Even having to take time to listen to, consider, and decide upon the latest scheme is added work. Perhaps others would be satisfied one month with making the decisions that need to be made and then going on about their lives. Instead month after month you innundate them with powerpoint presentations of park renovations with wifi access, new electrical hookups, or playground night lighting yes? or no?; or someone encroaching a few inches into HOA common space that nobody else would ever utilize or step foot on; or should we buy landscapers lunch?; etc.; etc.; etc.

You've complained enough about being overworked and you've complained about others (supposedly) not pulling their own weight. You can't prioritize what truly has to be done over all of your other assorted pet projects, because they are what interests you and what want to spend your time on regardless of whether they are something your Board should be doing and should be spending resources on.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/26/2022 8:31 AM
Has he suggested any alternatives to whatever is being discussed? Has he offered to do additional research.

No, he is a non-participant as to any volunteer efforts. He did put together a PPT slide on a proposal to decrease compliance efforts (two months after we voted to increase compliance and notified homeowners of the increased compliance). I found it very offputting that two months after we vote to increase compliance, which he voted in favor of, he puts together a proposal to decrease compliance efforts. I went ahead and put it on the agenda where it got struck down, but I think backpedaling on decisions without obvious cause doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

He did not volunteer his time for NNO, or for movie night, nor has he been effective with vendor relationships, nor takes on any task that requires any time. His Board involvement seems to be limited to sending off argumentative e-mails about things we approved at the previous meeting as a Board, or otherwise being a grump about the HOA.

I do wonder if he talks about the meeting with his spouse (most of us do) and if his wife doesn't like the decision and thus he backpedals at her request. Or if he doesn't understand the discussion (I somewhat suspect congitive decline with his person) real-time, and his wife later explains the decision and he realizes that he made the wrong decision. Or something.

Regardless, I really do wish this person would depart the Board.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ND on 10/26/2022 9:24 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/26/2022 8:01 AM
On our Board, we have one Board member who appears to be a grumpy old man and argues all of the time with the most active board member (me). It seems like this Board member is trying to stop all spending, all work, all rule enforcement, etc.

I'm not sure if this person philosophically disagrees with the existence of the HOA, is frustrated with me personally, or just finds it easier to sit around and argue rather than accomplish volunteer work. But every single idea and proposal that I have is met with resistance, almost by definition.

Anyone have one of these on their board?

Best way to handle the chronic arguer?

I know this will fall on deaf ears, but . . .

I suggest first examining yourself, your actions, your conduct, your decision-making, your expectations. You are overboard in most aspects and have unrealistic/distorted expectations. Instead of seeing this person as someone who must be handled, argued with, and/or defeated at every turn, instead try to find out this person's motives, wants, needs, expectations, etc. and figure out how to change yourself so you can work with them and they can work with you.

First step is to talk to the actual person who you seem to be having trouble with. Turning here to an anonymous group of internet people may give you other ideas, but if you can't step up and talk to the actual person, then I doubt you'll have success in this area.

Evidence here shows that you aren't someone who is satisfied with maintaining status quo. And status quo shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing. Status quo in the best quality and at the best price is essentially the Board's charter. You always have some new idea, project, proposal, obscure question, suggestion. You know what each of these mean? Additional work for one or more volunteer Board Members! Even having to take time to listen to, consider, and decide upon the latest scheme is added work. Perhaps others would be satisfied one month with making the decisions that need to be made and then going on about their lives. Instead month after month you innundate them with powerpoint presentations of park renovations with wifi access, new electrical hookups, or playground night lighting yes? or no?; or someone encroaching a few inches into HOA common space that nobody else would ever utilize or step foot on; or should we buy landscapers lunch?; etc.; etc.; etc.

You've complained enough about being overworked and you've complained about others (supposedly) not pulling their own weight. You can't prioritize what truly has to be done over all of your other assorted pet projects, because they are what interests you and what want to spend your time on regardless of whether they are something your Board should be doing and should be spending resources on.

Very well said. What Michael has described in this post is the normal kind of conflict that we all face inside and outside of an HOA environment. Michael needs consider why he is not able to handle this on his and work on those skills.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Keep in mind a BOD consists of several members, each with a vote. We have one BOD Member who is a not to bright, contrarian so we listen to her as we do to each BOD Member, then we vote. Typical votes (BOD of five) are four to one and we move one to the next item. There is "always one". Accept it and move on.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 973

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/26/2022 8:01 AM
On our Board, we have one Board member who appears to be a grumpy old man and argues all of the time with the most active board member (me). It seems like this Board member is trying to stop all spending, all work, all rule enforcement, etc.

I'm not sure if this person philosophically disagrees with the existence of the HOA, is frustrated with me personally, or just finds it easier to sit around and argue rather than accomplish volunteer work. But every single idea and proposal that I have is met with resistance, almost by definition.

Anyone have one of these on their board?

Best way to handle the chronic arguer?

First off - can the other Board members also see and hear this person?

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”