Is my powerpoint slide used for Board meeting a record of the association?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

I'm wondering if the powerpoint slide that I use to guide the discussion during Board meetings a record of the association? Records of the association are requestable by homeowners. As some of you know, I create lengthy powerpoint slides with lots of pictures and details about things around our community for use in guiding the discussions. Recently, a homoewner requested a copy of them.

I have no intention to provide these to homeowners, for a couple reasons:

1. I have content for executive session such as compliance, legal matters, and delinquent accounts in the presentation. Before releasing, PPT would need to be scrubbed of details not releasable, which would require more time on my part.
2. Things are always evolving, so some of the content is not correct at the time of the meeting.
3. The intent and context of the slide is not accurate without the discussion that goes along with the slide.
4. I simply don't want to share them.

So my question is - is the powerpoint presentation something that we are required to release to homeowners upon request, or can we keep that for Board use only?

If it is something we have to release, I will opt to stop making powerpoints in the future and just do the meetings using the PM meeting packet whose release isn't my issue.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

yes you should release it.
does it really take that long to delete private slides? I mean in the time it took you to post this you could of probably deleted the slides.

vis ta vie

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

In another thread, Michael or whatever his name is, talked about the need to be transparent. I think he told a little white lie.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 10:46 AM
I'm wondering if the powerpoint slide that I use to guide the discussion during Board meetings a record of the association? Records of the association are requestable by homeowners. As some of you know, I create lengthy powerpoint slides with lots of pictures and details about things around our community for use in guiding the discussions. Recently, a homoewner requested a copy of them.

I have no intention to provide these to homeowners, for a couple reasons:

1. I have content for executive session such as compliance, legal matters, and delinquent accounts in the presentation. Before releasing, PPT would need to be scrubbed of details not releasable, which would require more time on my part.
2. Things are always evolving, so some of the content is not correct at the time of the meeting.
3. The intent and context of the slide is not accurate without the discussion that goes along with the slide.
4. I simply don't want to share them.

So my question is - is the powerpoint presentation something that we are required to release to homeowners upon request, or can we keep that for Board use only?

If it is something we have to release, I will opt to stop making powerpoints in the future and just do the meetings using the PM meeting packet whose release isn't my issue.

You shouldn't be mixing up executive session slides with regular Boards meeting topics. Yes you should release them and be grateful that any of your owners wants the information. If you have a website you should post them there also.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

In my opinion, agendas and documents (regardless of the form they are in) used at a board meeting should be attached to the minutes as records of the association.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 10:46 AM

1. I have content for executive session such as compliance, legal matters, and delinquent accounts in the presentation. Before releasing, PPT would need to be scrubbed of details not releasable, which would require more time on my part.

They're not Minutes nor agenda. The manager did not produce this software on the members' dime. Given the work involved (by a volunteer), I would inform the owner that I believed the powerpoint presentations are not property of the HOA, and that the proper record of the meeting is to be found in the agenda and Minutes.

If push ever came to shove, maybe a judge would agree. Maybe not. Either way, from where I am sitting, the owner wanting these PPT presentations can just lawyer up and file suit if he/she is that determined.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 12:37 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 10:46 AM

1. I have content for executive session such as compliance, legal matters, and delinquent accounts in the presentation. Before releasing, PPT would need to be scrubbed of details not releasable, which would require more time on my part.

They're not Minutes nor agenda. The manager did not produce this software on the members' dime. Given the work involved (by a volunteer), I would inform the owner that I believed the powerpoint presentations are not property of the HOA, and that the proper record of the meeting is to be found in the agenda and Minutes.

If push ever came to shove, maybe a judge would agree. Maybe not. Either way, from where I am sitting, the owner wanting these PPT presentations can just lawyer up and file suit if he/she is that determined.

Thank you. I know that HOA attorneys have a narrow definition of what consists of an Association record. For example, e-mails written by the property manager and send to the HOA President are not considered records, and thus, not something that have to be provided to members upon request.

I am in concurrence that everything in my life that involves HOA does not have be provided to every homeowner upon request. Just because I'm HOA president doesn't mean I'm the property of the owners!

There isn't anything secret in the presentation, after all, it's presented during open session. But there are errors, incorrect facts, and things that I would prefer not get circulated and stored by members for years.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 12:45 PM
I know that HOA attorneys have a narrow definition of what consists of an Association record. For example, e-mails written by the property manager and send to the HOA President are not considered records, and thus, not something that have to be provided to members upon request.

I am in concurrence that everything in my life that involves HOA does not have be provided to every homeowner upon request. Just because I'm HOA president doesn't mean I'm the property of the owners!

There isn't anything secret in the presentation, after all, it's presented during open session. But there are errors, incorrect facts, and things that I would prefer not get circulated and stored by members for years.

-- I gave each point above a fair amount of thought, including the legal implications. I think all the points are good. I see things as you do here.

-- I to am getting the sense that this one owner may see you as chattel.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 12:55 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 12:45 PM
I know that HOA attorneys have a narrow definition of what consists of an Association record. For example, e-mails written by the property manager and send to the HOA President are not considered records, and thus, not something that have to be provided to members upon request.

I am in concurrence that everything in my life that involves HOA does not have be provided to every homeowner upon request. Just because I'm HOA president doesn't mean I'm the property of the owners!

There isn't anything secret in the presentation, after all, it's presented during open session. But there are errors, incorrect facts, and things that I would prefer not get circulated and stored by members for years.

-- I gave each point above a fair amount of thought, including the legal implications. I think all the points are good. I see things as you do here.

-- I to am getting the sense that this one owner may see you as chattel.

I just don't get it. If the slides are nothing but talking points to the agenda why would either of you not want to make them available to any owner? So much for educating owners and being transparent.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 12:45 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 12:37 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 10:46 AM

1. I have content for executive session such as compliance, legal matters, and delinquent accounts in the presentation. Before releasing, PPT would need to be scrubbed of details not releasable, which would require more time on my part.

They're not Minutes nor agenda. The manager did not produce this software on the members' dime. Given the work involved (by a volunteer), I would inform the owner that I believed the powerpoint presentations are not property of the HOA, and that the proper record of the meeting is to be found in the agenda and Minutes.

If push ever came to shove, maybe a judge would agree. Maybe not. Either way, from where I am sitting, the owner wanting these PPT presentations can just lawyer up and file suit if he/she is that determined.

Thank you. I know that HOA attorneys have a narrow definition of what consists of an Association record. For example, e-mails written by the property manager and send to the HOA President are not considered records, and thus, not something that have to be provided to members upon request.

I am in concurrence that everything in my life that involves HOA does not have be provided to every homeowner upon request. Just because I'm HOA president doesn't mean I'm the property of the owners!

There isn't anything secret in the presentation, after all, it's presented during open session. But there are errors, incorrect facts, and things that I would prefer not get circulated and stored by members for years.

I agree. The slide are talking points, not official records. Minutes are the official records. If people want to know what happened other then the Official Minutes, tell them to attend the meetings.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 1:15 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 12:55 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 12:45 PM
I know that HOA attorneys have a narrow definition of what consists of an Association record. For example, e-mails written by the property manager and send to the HOA President are not considered records, and thus, not something that have to be provided to members upon request.

I am in concurrence that everything in my life that involves HOA does not have be provided to every homeowner upon request. Just because I'm HOA president doesn't mean I'm the property of the owners!

There isn't anything secret in the presentation, after all, it's presented during open session. But there are errors, incorrect facts, and things that I would prefer not get circulated and stored by members for years.

-- I gave each point above a fair amount of thought, including the legal implications. I think all the points are good. I see things as you do here.

-- I to am getting the sense that this one owner may see you as chattel.

I just don't get it. If the slides are nothing but talking points to the agenda why would either of you not want to make them available to any owner? So much for educating owners and being transparent.

I will turn this around. What gives owners the right to copies of my notes and talking points that I used when conducting a meeting? If my notes were handwritten on the back of a few envelopes, could they ask me to scan and e-mail those to them? What about powerpoint makes them "records" when handwritten notes on the back of an envelope are not?

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 1:15 PM
I just don't get it. If the slides are nothing but talking points to the agenda why would either of you not want to make them available to any owner? So much for educating owners and being transparent.

Because scrubbing the PPT slides and responding to requests for same would be one more thing I have to do for owners, on my time, unpaid, with said owners not willing to do any volunteer service for the HOA.

AFAIC directors should do all they can to avoid burn out. This includes just saying "no" when no law is being broken by doing so.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 1:31 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 1:15 PM
I just don't get it. If the slides are nothing but talking points to the agenda why would either of you not want to make them available to any owner? So much for educating owners and being transparent.

Because scrubbing the PPT slides and responding to requests for same would be one more thing I have to do for owners, on my time, unpaid, with said owners not willing to do any volunteer service for the HOA.

AFAIC directors should do all they can to avoid burn out. This includes just saying "no" when no law is being broken by doing so.

You could scrub the PPT and post on a website in less time than it took to write your response.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

I don't understand why one would have to scrub the powerpoint slides that were used in an open meeting.

I'm also of the opinion that the secretary should be the one handling records requests - NOT the president.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 1:25 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 1:15 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 12:55 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 12:45 PM
I know that HOA attorneys have a narrow definition of what consists of an Association record. For example, e-mails written by the property manager and send to the HOA President are not considered records, and thus, not something that have to be provided to members upon request.

I am in concurrence that everything in my life that involves HOA does not have be provided to every homeowner upon request. Just because I'm HOA president doesn't mean I'm the property of the owners!

There isn't anything secret in the presentation, after all, it's presented during open session. But there are errors, incorrect facts, and things that I would prefer not get circulated and stored by members for years.

-- I gave each point above a fair amount of thought, including the legal implications. I think all the points are good. I see things as you do here.

-- I to am getting the sense that this one owner may see you as chattel.

I just don't get it. If the slides are nothing but talking points to the agenda why would either of you not want to make them available to any owner? So much for educating owners and being transparent.

I will turn this around. What gives owners the right to copies of my notes and talking points that I used when conducting a meeting? If my notes were handwritten on the back of a few envelopes, could they ask me to scan and e-mail those to them? What about powerpoint makes them "records" when handwritten notes on the back of an envelope are not?

You and I just have different styles on running an HOA. We recorded our meetings and posted a link on the website. We made Powerpoint presentations available to anyone that asked. Your argument sounds like a control issue. Some people work and can't make meetings. Some may be out of town. My philosophy was to inform and educate homeowners over and over and over and make the info available. If they chose not to view the recorded meetings or ask for the Powerpoint presentations then so be it. However, whenever someone complained the first question I asked them was why haven't you read any of the info that we have made available? By the time our Board was done 3 years later people learned to think twice about being an ankle biter because they knew we were well educated and prepared on any topic that they could throw at us. I also cannot tell you how many times people made a point to compliment us on our effort to educate homeowners.

The bottom line is I just don't understand your reasoning and to be honest your comment "I simply don't want to share them" is indicative of your style.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/06/2022 1:36 PM
I'm also of the opinion that the secretary should be the one handling records requests - NOT the president.

First thing is you need to know how to delegate. Michael doesn't.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Max,

Appears to be a true statement based on postings.

I'm also of the opinion that if the power point presentation needs to be scrubbed before being released, perhaps it shouldn't have been used in the first place. If there was an error, mention it at the next meeting and move on.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Well, Michael DOES have a tendency to ram his head against the wall of a building made of brick to get when, although it's faster and less painful to open the door (or knock) or walk around to the back door. That's why Tim's suggestion probably makes too much sense to him and he'd rather whine....

To be honest, I don't see a ton of homeowners descending on Michael or anyone else requesting a copy of a powerpoint presentation. If they want it and it was presented during a board meeting, just post the thing on the community website and they can download it as needed. How hard is that? C

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 10/06/2022 1:34 PM
You could scrub the PPT and post on a website in less time than it took to write your response.

[shrug] HOA/COA managers bill $750 for a lot less labor. You are in no position to criticize MichaelT21 because he does not want to do work for which he is not paid and for which he has no legal obligation.

The guy's a volunteer. He already explained executive session material is a part of the PPT presentation. Obviously he does not present the exec session material at the open meeting. He goes to a lot of trouble to keep meetings focused and moving, with directors who are not willing to do work.

Delegate? With volunteers who do not commit to doing anything other than showing up and voting, "delegating" is nonsensical.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:07 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 10/06/2022 1:34 PM
You could scrub the PPT and post on a website in less time than it took to write your response.

[shrug] HOA/COA managers bill $750 for a lot less labor. You are in no position to criticize MichaelT21 because he does not want to do work for which he is not paid and for which he has no legal obligation.

The guy's a volunteer. He already explained executive session material is a part of the PPT presentation. Obviously he does not present the exec session material at the open meeting. He goes to a lot of trouble to keep meetings focused and moving, with directors who are not willing to do work.

Delegate? With volunteers who do not commit to doing anything other than showing up and voting, "delegating" is nonsensical.

Classic enabling. It's everyone else that's the problem.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/06/2022 2:01 PM
How hard is that?

The bs adds up.

There are already signs that MichaelT21 has enough problems saying "no" to owners.

Now here's an instance where he wants to say no, and he is on good ground to do so.

Hence he should.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:08 PM
Classic enabling. It's everyone else that's the problem.

This suggests that HOAs / COAs have no problems with member and director apathy. Huh.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

And a HOA attorney bills the same $750.00 for even less work than I put in, so it is time to put a cork in it.

Michael is just a whiner. He resents not being paid for being a volunteer board member. Suck it up. He, like all others agreed to the terms of living or volunteering within an HOA when he purchased his house.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:10 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:08 PM
Classic enabling. It's everyone else that's the problem.

This suggests that HOAs / COAs have no problems with member and director apathy. Huh.

You know darn well that's a lazy argument and totally ignores the history of his previous posts which paint a clear picture on his management style and control issues.

We wouldn't want poor Michael to have to save his presentation to another file name and hit the delete key a couple of times to get rid of the executive slides. I think your great with legal issues but sometimes I wonder if you ignore the human factors such as what makes a good Board member and their ability to communicate with others. Everything seems to be a legal issue to you.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:07 PM

The guy's a volunteer. He already explained executive session material is a part of the PPT presentation. Obviously he does not present the exec session material at the open meeting.

And it's not that difficult to make an ES power point and an open meeting power point.

Michael has already posted that there are complaints of lack of transparency.
Why not take 10 sec. (to close one PPT and start another) to show more transparency.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:15 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:10 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:08 PM
Classic enabling. It's everyone else that's the problem.

This suggests that HOAs / COAs have no problems with member and director apathy. Huh.

You know darn well that's a lazy argument and totally ignores the history of his previous posts which paint a clear picture on his management style and control issues.

We wouldn't want poor Michael to have to save his presentation to another file name and hit the delete key a couple of times to get rid of the executive slides. I think your great with legal issues but sometimes I wonder if you ignore the human factors such as what makes a good Board member and their ability to communicate with others. Everything seems to be a legal issue to you.

WELL SAID!

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:10 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:08 PM
Classic enabling. It's everyone else that's the problem.

This suggests that HOAs / COAs have no problems with member and director apathy. Huh.

No it doesn't. You teach people how to treat you and at some point, you either learn to set some boundaries and say No or eventually fall out from exhaustion or worse. This is a primary reason why HOA volunteering is considered the worst gig in America. I don't know if the Huffington Post still has the article that said precisely that, but it's worth looking up to read and ponder.

Regarding this latest chapter of the Book of Michael, he's been told to man up and just say no over and over, and yet he continues to go from one thing to another because he doesn't know how or is afraid to. Some of this stuff happens because he doesn't seem to want to apply simple solutions like uploading the power presentation after "scrubbing it" (I still don't get that - surely there aren't any state secrets on the thing that address putting Wi-Fi in the playground or wherever it was supposed to go).

If people, including the arch-rival, get into their feelings because he says no, that's on them. Sure they can vote Michael out, but we all know they'd have to do the work - and wind up in the same position with people nitpicking over this, that, and the third. Maybe that's what should happen and then people would either shut up or step up to help.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Michael's PPTs, imo, aren't Assn. records. Instead they are the same as Board Packets (Directors Reports; Board Books) that directors review a few days before a board meeting and contain copies everything that will be discussed. In CA, Board Packets aren't considered "Associations Records," so aren't required to be shared with Owners.

From Davis-Stirling.com. "Board Packets Defined. Members who attend board meetings sometimes request a copy of the board packet so they can follow along during the meeting. The Open Meeting Act gives owners the right to attend open meetings and a copy of the meeting agendas but not to board packets. A board packet is not a record nor is it subject to inspection under the Davis-Stirling Act. It is a packet of records that frequently contains confidential material."

If WA statutes are similar, I agree with Augustin & JohnC that the PPT discussion materials need not be sent to Owners. What's crucial for Members to see are the decisions that the board makes and, one hopes, the rationale for the decisions. Those are in properly written minutes, which should never include discussion. Some of these decisions manifest themselves in policies or new forms or contracts that Members will see.

I if the author would ask the member who seeks these if there's particular aspect they want to view and possibly share it spending on confidentiality matters, e.g., bids under consideration. With Shelia, I'd think that requests for even a few shots would be rare.

So, oh, Michael, is it the person who made the request that bothers you v. the request per se? I've found that with MichaelT often some little detail is avoided.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/06/2022 2:37 PM
Michael's PPTs, imo, aren't Assn. records. Instead they are the same as Board Packets (Directors Reports; Board Books) that directors review a few days before a board meeting and contain copies everything that will be discussed. In CA, Board Packets aren't considered "Associations Records," so aren't required to be shared with Owners.

From Davis-Stirling.com. "Board Packets Defined. Members who attend board meetings sometimes request a copy of the board packet so they can follow along during the meeting. The Open Meeting Act gives owners the right to attend open meetings and a copy of the meeting agendas but not to board packets. A board packet is not a record nor is it subject to inspection under the Davis-Stirling Act. It is a packet of records that frequently contains confidential material."

If WA statutes are similar, I agree with Augustin & JohnC that the PPT discussion materials need not be sent to Owners. What's crucial for Members to see are the decisions that the board makes and, one hopes, the rationale for the decisions. Those are in properly written minutes, which should never include discussion. Some of these decisions manifest themselves in policies or new forms or contracts that Members will see.

I if the author would ask the member who seeks these if there's particular aspect they want to view and possibly share it spending on confidentiality matters, e.g., bids under consideration. With Shelia, I'd think that requests for even a few shots would be rare.

So, oh, Michael, is it the person who made the request that bothers you v. the request per se? I've found that with MichaelT often some little detail is avoided.

Disagree. Board packets are not shared at shared at a Board meeting, this PPT was, and as such are part of the meeting which should be shared. Michael problem is he feels he should be paid for the products and a judge will laugh his ass out of court. He agreed prior to becoming a board member that he wasn't going to get paid. If he's unhappy, leave, I am sure someone will step up and maintain his precious parks.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

The contents of board packets are, in fact, deliberated, discussed, debated, and often voted on etc. AT board meetings. They usually aren't visual on a screen, but they are certainly verbally shared with owners in attendance or else they would not be in board packets. In the minutes, there is reference to every a agenda item, which owners see in advance of the meeting, and what became of it.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 10/06/2022 2:48 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/06/2022 2:37 PM
Michael's PPTs, imo, aren't Assn. records. Instead they are the same as Board Packets (Directors Reports; Board Books) that directors review a few days before a board meeting and contain copies everything that will be discussed. In CA, Board Packets aren't considered "Associations Records," so aren't required to be shared with Owners.

From Davis-Stirling.com. "Board Packets Defined. Members who attend board meetings sometimes request a copy of the board packet so they can follow along during the meeting. The Open Meeting Act gives owners the right to attend open meetings and a copy of the meeting agendas but not to board packets. A board packet is not a record nor is it subject to inspection under the Davis-Stirling Act. It is a packet of records that frequently contains confidential material."

If WA statutes are similar, I agree with Augustin & JohnC that the PPT discussion materials need not be sent to Owners. What's crucial for Members to see are the decisions that the board makes and, one hopes, the rationale for the decisions. Those are in properly written minutes, which should never include discussion. Some of these decisions manifest themselves in policies or new forms or contracts that Members will see.

I if the author would ask the member who seeks these if there's particular aspect they want to view and possibly share it spending on confidentiality matters, e.g., bids under consideration. With Shelia, I'd think that requests for even a few shots would be rare.

So, oh, Michael, is it the person who made the request that bothers you v. the request per se? I've found that with MichaelT often some little detail is avoided.

Disagree. Board packets are not shared at shared at a Board meeting, this PPT was, and as such are part of the meeting which should be shared. Michael problem is he feels he should be paid for the products and a judge will laugh his ass out of court. He agreed prior to becoming a board member that he wasn't going to get paid. If he's unhappy, leave, I am sure someone will step up and maintain his precious parks.

Bingo. It's such a strange concept to me that the information shared with people who attended a meeting is now marked classified and can't be shared with other homeowners that did not attend. It's like having two classes of HOA homeowners and each class is given a different message.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Look, the PPT is simply info for directors to consider, discuss, etc., that's on a screen vs being in directors board packets to be considered, discussed, etc.

Owners observers see the info or hear it.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/06/2022 2:37 PM
Michael's PPTs, imo, aren't Assn. records. Instead they are the same as Board Packets (Directors Reports; Board Books) that directors review a few days before a board meeting and contain copies everything that will be discussed. In CA, Board Packets aren't considered "Associations Records," so aren't required to be shared with Owners.

From Davis-Stirling.com. "Board Packets Defined. Members who attend board meetings sometimes request a copy of the board packet so they can follow along during the meeting. The Open Meeting Act gives owners the right to attend open meetings and a copy of the meeting agendas but not to board packets. A board packet is not a record nor is it subject to inspection under the Davis-Stirling Act. It is a packet of records that frequently contains confidential material."

Amazing; the davis-stirling.com site is something else. Is there any arcane topic it does not cover? Nice citation and discussion KerryL1.

AFAIC, those owners seeking MichaelT21's PPT slides are the lowest of ankle biters. I refuse to enable these ankle biters.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/06/2022 2:30 PM

I don't know if the Huffington Post still has the article that said precisely that, but it's worth looking up to read and ponder.

I just read the article. It is very good.

The Worst Volunteer Position in America

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/06/2022 2:37 PM
Michael's PPTs, imo, aren't Assn. records. Instead they are the same as Board Packets (Directors Reports; Board Books) that directors review a few days before a board meeting and contain copies everything that will be discussed. In CA, Board Packets aren't considered "Associations Records," so aren't required to be shared with Owners.

From Davis-Stirling.com. "Board Packets Defined. Members who attend board meetings sometimes request a copy of the board packet so they can follow along during the meeting. The Open Meeting Act gives owners the right to attend open meetings and a copy of the meeting agendas but not to board packets. A board packet is not a record nor is it subject to inspection under the Davis-Stirling Act. It is a packet of records that frequently contains confidential material."

If WA statutes are similar, I agree with Augustin & JohnC that the PPT discussion materials need not be sent to Owners. What's crucial for Members to see are the decisions that the board makes and, one hopes, the rationale for the decisions. Those are in properly written minutes, which should never include discussion. Some of these decisions manifest themselves in policies or new forms or contracts that Members will see.

I if the author would ask the member who seeks these if there's particular aspect they want to view and possibly share it spending on confidentiality matters, e.g., bids under consideration. With Shelia, I'd think that requests for even a few shots would be rare.

So, oh, Michael, is it the person who made the request that bothers you v. the request per se? I've found that with MichaelT often some little detail is avoided.

While the Board packet may not be considered association records, but the contents that make up the packet are. Michael claims he wants to be transparent is pure BS. He is holding the HOA hostage because he feels he should be compensated for all the time he puts in that others won't. Let him argue that in court and see how far it gets him.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

So, I am coming in late here. The first thing I read from Michael's post was he had errors and omissions that he had concerns about sharing. What! Why would the facts you shared during an annual meeting not be triple checked for accuracy? If they were Bullet points from the President, you would expect them to be complete and accurate. This is not a Person running for office who can lie at will. This is similar to a State of the HOA.

Facts matter and I have always questioned our friend Michael from whatever town he claims to be from. I think we get the facts and only the facts he wants to give us.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:15 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:10 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:08 PM
Classic enabling. It's everyone else that's the problem.

This suggests that HOAs / COAs have no problems with member and director apathy. Huh.

You know darn well that's a lazy argument [snip gossip] ...

Baloney. You know darn well this owner asking for the PPT slides is an ankle biter.

Quote:

I wonder if you ignore the human factors such as what makes a good Board member and their ability to communicate with others.

I understand that you want to talk personalities. I think this is off-topic for the thread.

MichaelT21 asked whether his PPT slides are a record of the association. I gave him my opinion of what the answer should be.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/06/2022 2:16 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:07 PM

The guy's a volunteer. He already explained executive session material is a part of the PPT presentation. Obviously he does not present the exec session material at the open meeting.

And it's not that difficult to make an ES power point and an open meeting power point.

Michael has already posted that there are complaints of lack of transparency.
Why not take 10 sec. (to close one PPT and start another) to show more transparency.

Not for a moment do I think these interruptions and demands from owners, for more than they are allowed under the law and covenants, amount to a mere 10 seconds.

All of MichaelT21's reasons for not wanting to share his PPT slides make sense to me.

You and I disagree about how high directors must jump when an owner commands it.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

As I stated, sure many items in a board packet may be proposals that are approved. Once approved, they will be "association records" of some sort, e.g., a contract, a new rule, a new policy, a new required form for owners to fill out. Until or unless approved by the board the content are simply matters for discussion. Once approved, Yes, sure, they should be posted in the relevant places.

Show me evidence that the contents of a board packet are "association records."

Not giving unapproved discussions in a binder or on a screen to Owners doesn't suggest to me a lack of transparency. I think you're using the word in an odd way, Max.

Why in the world are you bringing up "court?" Do you think MichaelT's requester will take him to court????

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 10/06/2022 6:55 PM
So, I am coming in late here. The first thing I read from Michael's post was he had errors and omissions that he had concerns about sharing. What! Why would the facts you shared during an annual meeting not be triple checked for accuracy? If they were Bullet points from the President, you would expect them to be complete and accurate.

I would expect the President to do his or her best and no more, especially if I were not willing to be on the Board. I would recognize that we all make mistakes. I would recognize that communicating details of a meeting, where said details go beyond motions and votes, often tend to loan themselves to gossip and confusion.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Augustin,
If I recall this annual meeting was just a week or so ago. Facts should not change month to month and the data should be considered accurate as of the last financial statement.

I still think we are all being Punked by Michael who has the widest situations on more topics than any 5 posters have had while I have been on this site for the last 14 years.

I love this site but sometimes wonder if these posts by him are not just a way to bring traffic to this great site.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Michael' s asking about board meetings, not annual meetings.
Aug makes good point about anything that occurs at a meeting that wasn't motions/votes lead to to gossip & rumors, which is exactly why discussion should NOT be in meeting minutes.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/06/2022 7:45 PM
Michael' s asking about board meetings, not annual meetings.
Aug makes good point about anything that occurs at a meeting that wasn't motions/votes lead to to gossip & rumors, which is exactly why discussion should NOT be in meeting minutes.

Did you even read any of Michael comments or is your story, "I agree with Aug" and going to stick with that? Talk about a puppet.

Let's see....

----I have content for executive session such as compliance, legal matters, and delinquent accounts in the presentation. Before releasing, PPT would need to be scrubbed of details not releasable, which would require more time on my part. Two different meeting, two different presentations.

----Things are always evolving, so some of the content is not correct at the time of the meeting. If it's not correct, why the hell is it in the presentation?

----The intent and context of the slide is not accurate without the discussion that goes along with the slide. Not the same unless Michael is narrating.

----I simply don't want to share them. T\This is the best one, even if it was required.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 6:57 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:15 PM

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 2:10 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 10/06/2022 2:08 PM
Classic enabling. It's everyone else that's the problem.

This suggests that HOAs / COAs have no problems with member and director apathy. Huh.

You know darn well that's a lazy argument [snip gossip] ...

Baloney. You know darn well this owner asking for the PPT slides is an ankle biter.

Quote:

I wonder if you ignore the human factors such as what makes a good Board member and their ability to communicate with others.

I understand that you want to talk personalities. I think this is off-topic for the thread.

MichaelT21 asked whether his PPT slides are a record of the association. I gave him my opinion of what the answer should be.

He plays you like a fiddle.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 10/06/2022 7:17 PM
I still think we are all being Punked by Michael who has the widest situations on more topics than any 5 posters have had while I have been on this site for the last 14 years.

I think people here choose to respond to the threads MichaelT21 creates. I think their choice to do so says a great deal about them [wink]. I think people enjoy responding to MichaelT21's threads. They enjoy posting that they are rolling their eyes. They enjoy posting more substantive responses.

For HOATalk.com's members and AFAIC, HOATalk is a social club satisfying some manner of need to speak one's mind; write; read one's self in print; maybe learn; and so on.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

If people didn't like my questions they wouldn't answer them.

They are all HOA related. While numerous, they actually are generally good questions. I might troll now and then, but 95% of my questions are sincere. I've incorporated many of the responses into our HOA and our community is in much better shape as a result.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

It doesn't matter, Max, what MichaelT lists as reasons; all that matters is a reply to his question: Are his PPTs "association records." My answer is no and I showed why I came to my conclusion.

Now, my monthly directors report had wording in an insert on the cover that the materials inside were confidential, which is our MC's policy, led me long ago to look at D-S.com for their opinion. This topic isn't new to me.

Divining Michael's motives plays no role here.

But, will he answer my repeated question: Is the requestor of these meeting materials your "Arch Critic," Michael?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/07/2022 10:05 AM
It doesn't matter, Max, what MichaelT lists as reasons; all that matters is a reply to his question: Are his PPTs "association records." My answer is no and I showed why I came to my conclusion.

Now, my monthly directors report had wording in an insert on the cover that the materials inside were confidential, which is our MC's policy, led me long ago to look at D-S.com for their opinion. This topic isn't new to me.

Divining Michael's motives plays no role here.

But, will he answer my repeated question: Is the requestor of these meeting materials your "Arch Critic," Michael?

His PPT is part of associations record, PERIOD!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Max, for the sake of readers beyond MichaelT, please show evidence that his PPT presentations are "Association records" as defined in WA state.

So, Michael, since it's your question, do the research about WA state HOA statutes on "association records" their definition, etc. Maybe even take a look at your Bylaws. Folks: this isn't something MichaelT likes to do.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

I've looked in both statutes and CC&Rs and have not found a definition for the term record.

I check with our PM and she says we need to release upon request. So I will.

Maybe I won't make PPT slideshows in the future.