Night lighting at playground

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

We have a playground in a park that is away from people's homes. When it was built about 3 years ago, the Board at the time decided to install 4 overhead pole lamps to keep the playground lit all night long because the Board felt that it would prevent kids from misbehaving on the equipment late at night. So it's fully lit from dusk to dawn each day.

To me, this makes it look like the park is open as it's fully bright, usable, and playable at all hours of the night. Indeed, it seems that teens like to go there at night and "hang out" because it's away from people's homes.

I am thinking about introducing a motion to extinguish the lights after 8pm each night. Before I pitch it to the Board, curious if anyone here has opinions about lighting up kids playgrounds all night long.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Well, do the lights belong to your Association or the power company?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Bad idea. Lights needed for safety. Plus let cops see if anything illegal going on. Plus most people know a park is not open at night.

Here it is illegal to visit a cemetery at night. They are still lit up with lights. That way can see if anyone is in there doing bad things.

That is why we have lighting at night so not to hide....

Former HOA President

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/04/2022 6:26 AM
Well, do the lights belong to your Association or the power company?

These 4 lights are owned by the HOA.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/04/2022 6:29 AM
Bad idea. Lights needed for safety. Plus let cops see if anything illegal going on. Plus most people know a park is not open at night.

Here it is illegal to visit a cemetery at night. They are still lit up with lights. That way can see if anyone is in there doing bad things.

That is why we have lighting at night so not to hide....

Yes, that was the original idea.

However, I have not seen other playgrounds lit up at night in our greater metropolitan area. Other playgrounds are unlit and nothing nefarious seems to happen at them.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Sooo?

Former HOA President

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Before I moved into my community, it had a basketball court (near my home). It wasn't lit at night and was supposed to be closed after 8 pm, but that didn't matter - people used the headlights on their cars instead because there was a small parking area in front of it. As you may have guessed, it caused a certain amount of mayhem (much like our pool) and the board got rid of it.

I understand the board's point, as well as the concern about the racket the all-night playing and other stuff, could cause. If there's been an issue with the latter, would it possible to put some sort of timer on the lights so they'd automatically shut down at 8 pm? Depending on how your playground's set up, that may not necessarily stop people (car headlights), so if there's no way around that, you may be better off keeping the lights on.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Is the purpose to extinguish them to save money? Or to keep kids out? Are they damaging the playground?

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/04/2022 6:29 AM
Bad idea. Lights needed for safety. Plus let cops see if anything illegal going on. Plus most people know a park is not open at night.

Here it is illegal to visit a cemetery at night. They are still lit up with lights. That way can see if anyone is in there doing bad things.

That is why we have lighting at night so not to hide....

Not Necessarily so. All the Gated communities that I patrol have time limits on when the parks and playground and courts are to be used. all said lighting is killed no later than 15 minutes past
the amenities closing time.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

so teens hanging out in a park is a bad thing????
I can think of a lot worse things.

Isn't that the purpose of a park to hang out? are they doing something bad, or are some people just making up crap like they are having sex and making noise and doing drugs and smoking and drinking? Cause that's the sort of lame fear mongering you should totally ignore.

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm with ya, Wendy.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

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Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 10/05/2022 12:34 PM
so teens hanging out in a park is a bad thing????
I can think of a lot worse things.

Isn't that the purpose of a park to hang out? are they doing something bad, or are some people just making up crap like they are having sex and making noise and doing drugs and smoking and drinking? Cause that's the sort of lame fear mongering you should totally ignore.

Well said.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 10/05/2022 12:34 PM
so teens hanging out in a park is a bad thing????
I can think of a lot worse things.

Isn't that the purpose of a park to hang out? are they doing something bad, or are some people just making up crap like they are having sex and making noise and doing drugs and smoking and drinking? Cause that's the sort of lame fear mongering you should totally ignore.

I disagree. Unsupervised teens in a park after dark are usually up to no good. My husband used to tell our teenage boys nothing good happens after midnight.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

We don't want a crowd of unsupervised teens at our HOA Parks after dark. Crowds of unsupervised 12-13 year olds often get up to no good because they aren't mature enough to handle themselves without superivsion.

My concern is that the lights give the appearance the park is a place to go because it's lit up. I think extinguishing the lights would be a good way to keep the youth away from the park during closed hours.

I'll pitch sometime next year that we get a timer and have the lights controlled by the timer.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 6:22 AM
We don't want a crowd of unsupervised teens at our HOA Parks after dark. Crowds of unsupervised 12-13 year olds often get up to no good because they aren't mature enough to handle themselves without superivsion.

Do you remember the posts here explaining how remarks like this, when made to anyone associated with the HOA/COA, invite fair housing complaints?

I hope you are trying to get in the habit of talking about "people" (not kids) getting up to no good et cetera.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 6:22 AM
We don't want a crowd of unsupervised teens at our HOA Parks after dark. Crowds of unsupervised 12-13 year olds often get up to no good because they aren't mature enough to handle themselves without superivsion.

My concern is that the lights give the appearance the park is a place to go because it's lit up. I think extinguishing the lights would be a good way to keep the youth away from the park during closed hours.

I'll pitch sometime next year that we get a timer and have the lights controlled by the timer.

Michael,

How often is this happening? Is the park in a gated community? Are the 12-13 year olds children of the community members?

I would be concerned about 12-13 year olds being unsupervised after dark period. Why would a parent allow that in today's world. This situation came up when I was a teen (older than 12 and 13) at a public park in my small town. The police were asked to patrol the park after dark. This was enough to stop that gathering. Of course it moved to another location on private property in the country...

I think what your timer idea suggestion is a good one. It may not curtail it completely. I would also bring that up to the parents in your community if it's the children of community members. Gently remind them that the park is for their enjoyment but unsupervised young teens is dangerous.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 6:59 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 6:22 AM
We don't want a crowd of unsupervised teens at our HOA Parks after dark. Crowds of unsupervised 12-13 year olds often get up to no good because they aren't mature enough to handle themselves without superivsion.

Do you remember the posts here explaining how remarks like this, when made to anyone associated with the HOA/COA, invite fair housing complaints?

I hope you are trying to get in the habit of talking about "people" (not kids) getting up to no good et cetera.

??? Augustin, I am respectfully asking you how making the park less accessible to young teens by limiting the lighting at dark would be a fair housing issue? My opinion comes from a safety standpoint. I didn't even consider it being a fair housing issue.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 6:22 AM
We don't want a crowd of unsupervised teens at our HOA Parks after dark. Crowds of unsupervised 12-13 year olds often get up to no good because they aren't mature enough to handle themselves without superivsion.

My concern is that the lights give the appearance the park is a place to go because it's lit up. I think extinguishing the lights would be a good way to keep the youth away from the park during closed hours.

I'll pitch sometime next year that we get a timer and have the lights controlled by the timer.

I think teens who are up to no good would be just as happy in a unlit area and may actually prefer the lights being off so nobody can see what they are doing.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LayaS on 10/06/2022 7:17 AM
I am respectfully asking you how making the park less accessible to young teens by limiting the lighting at dark would be a fair housing issue? My opinion comes from a safety standpoint. I didn't even consider it being a fair housing issue.

This is from my reading of HUD Fair Housing cases. Talking, especially at a board meeting in front of owners, about ways to deter kids from play can be argued to show hostility to kids.

I have in mind:

-- pool rules that disallow kids 15 and younger from being at the pool alone. HUD says not allowed. (There is some age limit, but I believe it's lower than 15.) These rules are said to be hostile to kids and discriminatory towards families with kids.

-- rules about using the parking lot, like a rule that says, "Children shall not skateboard in the parking lot." Don't even think of making such a rule. The correct wording should be "Skateboard use is prohibited in the parking lot."

I believe familial status discrimination; disability discrimination; and retaliation lead the way in HUD complaints.

To avoid a Fair Housing complaint, never target "kids" and what they may or may not do. Target "people."

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 10/06/2022 7:27 AM

Posted By LayaS on 10/06/2022 7:17 AM
I am respectfully asking you how making the park less accessible to young teens by limiting the lighting at dark would be a fair housing issue? My opinion comes from a safety standpoint. I didn't even consider it being a fair housing issue.

This is from my reading of HUD Fair Housing cases. Talking, especially at a board meeting in front of owners, about ways to deter kids from play can be argued to show hostility to kids.

I have in mind:

-- pool rules that disallow kids 15 and younger from being at the pool alone. HUD says not allowed. (There is some age limit, but I believe it's lower than 15.) These rules are said to be hostile to kids and discriminatory towards families with kids.

-- rules about using the parking lot, like a rule that says, "Children shall not skateboard in the parking lot." Don't even think of making such a rule. The correct wording should be "Skateboard use is prohibited in the parking lot."

I believe familial status discrimination; disability discrimination; and retaliation lead the way in HUD complaints.

To avoid a Fair Housing complaint, never target "kids" and what they may or may not do. Target "people."

Thanks for the reply. I am all about children's safety. And attempting to curtail activities that may tempt vulnerable young people either internally or externally I see as a good thing. I would take my chances on this one and limit the lighting after dark and talk to "people" about the reasons. The wording can be manipulated to not mention children or kids but "no people in the park after a certain time."

I can also see the lighting issue from both sides. Lighting is meant to provide safety and limited lighting can be interpreted the same way in that the park is dark, it's not open.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

I am fine with whatever decision is made on lighting. Though I favor more lights over less, as long as the lighting is not a nuisance.

Regarding the wording: I do not want to push anyone around. I am conveying how I would talk about these issues to minimize liability.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Michael still hasn't told us if there actually have been incidents of bad behavior in these HOA-owned parks.

I'd publicize frequently that the parks are open from xAM until xxPM. I'd erect signs to that effect.

I think placing the lighting on motion sensors might work out nicely.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Discussing issues of groups teens being at a park when hours are closed is not a fair housing issue.

Creating a rule that says the park is closed to people 12 years and younger is a fair housing issue. Or having a HOA meeting that is advertised as "no children allowed" is also a fair housing issue, as single mothers cannot attend the meeting since they have kids in tow.

We haven't observed many problems at the park and few during the night. However, the park closes at 8pm but I will see people there playing on the playground at 9pm and 10pm. Without the lights, regular people would go home when it's dark. The lights allow people to use the equipment well past dark hours. I don't think that makes sense to me.

My vote is that we install a timer and have the lights go off 15 minutes after closing time. Then regular folks will go home as we want.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 9:39 AM
Discussing issues of groups teens being at a park when hours are closed is not a fair housing issue.

Depending on what you say, it absolutely could be a fair housing issue.

We disagree.

You came here for advice. I am advising not speaking about being annoyed with teens being at a park when the park is closed and wanting to stop the teens from so congregatting. It costs you nothing to minimize the liability.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 10/06/2022 9:39 AM
We haven't observed many problems at the park and few during the night. However, the park closes at 8pm but I will see people there playing on the playground at 9pm and 10pm.

sounds like you need to extend park hours till 9 or 10pm. they arent' causing problems and they like being there why kick them out early?

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I like 9 or 10pm too. And, the, what about motion sensors for the lighting?

Across the street and 1/2 block from our urban high rise is a small park, with 3 pieces of play equipment and surface with backboard. Different ppl. stop & sorta hang out; It's not well lit. No trouble has ever occurred there and it has no "hours."

With Aug simply don't use the language of "minors" or teens or any age-related talk. The easiest word to use re: any issues like this is "residents."