PM charging for copies for internal use

Started by MichaelT21 • 11 replies • 312 views

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MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Just found that out that we will pay nearly $1000 for copies this year for our PM. This means that our PM has printed nearly 10,000 sheets of paper in the course of her duties.

I fully understand when she prints something for external use, such as a letter to a homeowner regarding a compliance issue. But I inquired and found out that papers printed for internal use are also charged to us. For example, if she receives a bill electronically, prints it out, and hands it to the accounting department to pay, that cost of those prints are charged to us. Every interesting e-mail she receives get printed out, placed into a folder, and then everything in the folder is scanned and given to us as our PM report. These run between 50 and 120 pages per month.

I'm a little flabbergasted.

1) Can't they save e-mails to PDF and then merge the PDF? We only recieve a PDF via e-mail of the PM report so I am not sure why we need to pay for their internal use of prints.

2) Is this typical across the industry?

Seems like we could save a lot of money if the PM would simply print less for her own use?

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

I think mostly what matters is that the HOA and the PM spell out the terms of copying in the next contract.

I am a bit hesitant to tarry over ten cents a page and $1000 per year, though.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

What does your contract say, MichaelT? Ours clearly states fees for copying, mailings, etc.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

My question isn't a legal one. My question is about what practices are typical for PMs.

Kerry, does your PM charge you for documents that he/she prints for her own use and then later shreds? Or just for documents provided to homeowners, such as compliance letters, delinquency notices, etc?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

When we interviewed MC's we turned one of them down as it seemed they charged for everything like paper, ink , etc. It sounded like a couple of secretaries running the place, not a professional MC. I think we average less the $400 per year for additional charges (112 homes) not including mailing costs.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Michael

The copying you describe seems excessive but I feel the Board is partially responsible. What in the world do you as a Board do with this email information?

"Every interesting e-mail she receives gets printed out, placed into a folder, and then everything in the folder is scanned and given to us as our PM report. These run between 50 and 120 pages per month.

If you have five members on your board, that is over 500 sheets in some months.

We manage smaller associations and reached a decision two years ago it was not worth our time to track supplies expended so as to bill our clients for day-to-day routine use of paper, envelopes, and postage. We do charge for the preparation of collection and other letters which must be sent Certified Mail, including supplies used.

I have seen other MCs charge for every piece of whatever used from the supply room. In the association in which we reside, the annual budgeted expense is $1,000.

Bottom line, this is a contract issue between the MC and the Association. If you do not like it, suggest renegotiating that portion of the contract.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 09/29/2022 2:07 PM
Michael

The copying you describe seems excessive but I feel the Board is partially responsible. What in the world do you as a Board do with this email information?

"Every interesting e-mail she receives gets printed out, placed into a folder, and then everything in the folder is scanned and given to us as our PM report. These run between 50 and 120 pages per month.

If you have five members on your board, that is over 500 sheets in some months.

We manage smaller associations and reached a decision two years ago it was not worth our time to track supplies expended so as to bill our clients for day-to-day routine use of paper, envelopes, and postage. We do charge for the preparation of collection and other letters which must be sent Certified Mail, including supplies used.

I have seen other MCs charge for every piece of whatever used from the supply room. In the association in which we reside, the annual budgeted expense is $1,000.

Bottom line, this is a contract issue between the MC and the Association. If you do not like it, suggest renegotiating that portion of the contract.

I'm sorry if I was unclear. After the PM prints out all of the interesting e-mails, reports, and other things that goes into the PM report, she turns around and scans the stack of papers using the office scanner, and e-mails a PDF to the Board.

Some of us read through the report ahead of time, some do not. I take screen snippets of the interesting e-mails and put into my powerpoint that I show electronically at the meetings.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

That sounds like work on the PM part to scan and print. So I do not see why can not be compensated for that work.

Former HOA President

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

I’m not aware of any industry “norm”. I use soft copies whenever possible so do the managers I work with but I used to work with someone who printed everything out; she was older and less comfortable with saving and combining files.

If you want them to stop doing what they are current doing then tell them.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/29/2022 1:43 PM
My question isn't a legal one. My question is about what practices are typical for PMs.

Kerry, does your PM charge you for documents that he/she prints for her own use and then later shreds? Or just for documents provided to homeowners, such as compliance letters, delinquency notices, etc?

There are 50 states and all of them have an assortment of HOAs and property managers, so most people would expect a variety in procedures and protocols.

What I don't understand is why you haven't done as Barbara suggested and simply discussed the issue with property manager. There's nothing wrong with talking to your property manager about ways to save money - good ones will make suggestions and the board can consider the pros and cons

Geez, one minute you complain about needing to constantly supervise what she does and the next whine about stuff like this. It doesn't matter what the industry norm is, only what your contract says (which apparently you haven't read - that seems typical of you) and that she does the job. All these questions and it seems at least half of them can be squashed if you'd slow your roll and used some common sense.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Remember first and foremost, all these copies are association property and should be turned over in the event that you change management companies.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You know there is sometimes a requirement to keep hard copies for a number of years for the IRS. Corporations it may be up to 7 years of document retention. So you still need hard copies and electronic. Scanning helps a lot for record keeping. They just don't get there by "thinking about it".

If I wanted to make copies, they charge 10 cents a page at Staples or any other office supply store typically. So they are not charging an outrageous rate that isn't pretty much industry standard.

Former HOA President

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