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ClarkeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Have been on several HOA boards in two different states where board members do not get paid. Moved several months ago to a MI condo association with 35 year old governing doc's and just found out at the annual that the five board members are getting a small reduction in there monthly assessment to be on the board.

Is this unusual? I that because in all my prior experience I have never heard of it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Worst idea ever .. however it can happen. It takes away income from the HOA. Each HOA is different so is the culture. They may not see the problem until they do ..

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Worst idea ever .. however it can happen. It takes away income from the HOA. Each HOA is different so is the culture. They may not see the problem until they do ..

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ClarkeS1 on 09/15/2022 12:03 PM
Have been on several HOA boards in two different states where board members do not get paid. Moved several months ago to a MI condo association with 35 year old governing doc's and just found out at the annual that the five board members are getting a small reduction in there monthly assessment to be on the board.

Is this unusual? I that because in all my prior experience I have never heard of it.
ClarkeS1,

-- Yes, this is unusual.

-- Check your governing documents for the exact wording on assessments. Typically the bylaws or covenants state that all owners shall pay the assessment. The wording is not trivial.

-- Check your governing documents for what they say about compensation of directors. Typically they say that directors may not be compensated. Now and then the Bylaws permit the treasurer (who may or may not also be a director, depending on the HOA/COA) to be compensated.

-- A federal statute exists that talks about how "volunteers" who are paid lose certain protections. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Protection_Act

-- If you quote the wording in your bylaws and covenants on these subjects here, this forum can likely offer more insights.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Almost always there is language in or around the paragraph regarding compensation of directors and officers which states out of pocket expenses incurred on behalf of the Association may be reimbursed with the approval of someone, generally the Board itself.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
To add to what Bill said, reimbursement would be for things like photocopying a community newsletter for distribution or supplies for an association sponsored event such as a block party. In my community, the board usually authorized the reimbursement during a meeting and receipts were required before anything was paid. This wouldn't be a piece of notebook paper listing random amounts,but those generated by an actual company.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
By the way, if your board members are getting a reduction in assessments for serving on the board, that's considered income to them and therefore, it should be reported to the IRS and calculated according on their tax returns

That's just one reason it's a bad idea and your community should stop it.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
As others have said, check your governing documents.

If they don't say anything about reduced payments for serving, then the Association is doing it improperly.
What should be done is the Board members pay their regular assessment and the Association cuts a check to the individuals serving.

Additionally, one should be aware of the following:

A 1099-misc should be issued if the amount is $600 or more per individual.

A 1099-C should be issued if the amount of the waived assessment is $600 or more.

The Board may be giving up protections under the Federal Volunteer Protection Act because they are now being paid (hence considered a professional).

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Typically Directors may not be paid per most governing docs.
However, Officers (who are typically also directors) may be paid.
ClarkeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 16
Posted:
Assessments Section I
Assessments against units and co-owners. All expenses arising from the management, administration and operating of the Association in pursuance of its authorization and responsibilities as set forth in the Condominium Documents and the Act shall be levied by the Association against the units and Owners. ( no mention of payment).

Board of Directors section 1
Directors' compensation, if any, shall be set by the affirmative vote of 60% of all Co-owners. (can not find the records of when this actually happened) and the amount is $50.00 per month and is paid by reducing there monthly assessment payment by this amount. Just right at $600.00 per year.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ClarkeS1 on 09/15/2022 2:56 PM

Board of Directors section 1
Directors' compensation, if any, shall be set by the affirmative vote of 60% of all Co-owners. (can not find the records of when this actually happened) and the amount is $50.00 per month and is paid by reducing there monthly assessment payment by this amount. Just right at $600.00 per year.

Then the Association Treasurer should be issuing a 1099-C per IRS codes.

If the Association doesn't want to issue the 1099-C, and you are very concerned, you can always inform the IRS.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Tim would you consider a reduction dues taxable or a way for the HOA to avoid paying taxes? They are not getting a check cut to them. They just do not have to contribute the same rate

Former HOA President
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
There is no need for a 1099 if the amount is $600.00 or less.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
It's not really germaine to this discussion, but our attorney law firm said that Board members can be paid for work outside of their duties as Board members. They said it was rare, but for example, if an engineer board member oversaw a major construction project that took a lot of hours, that would be above and beyond what a Board member is expected to do and they legally could be compensated for that activity. They did caution that it wouldn't be good optics and doesn't normally happen.

I think few homeowners would put up with paying Board members regardless of whether what they are doing.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/15/2022 3:06 PM
Posted By ClarkeS1 on 09/15/2022 2:56 PM

Board of Directors section 1
Directors' compensation, if any, shall be set by the affirmative vote of 60% of all Co-owners. (can not find the records of when this actually happened) and the amount is $50.00 per month and is paid by reducing there monthly assessment payment by this amount. Just right at $600.00 per year.


Then the Association Treasurer should be issuing a 1099-C per IRS codes.

If the Association doesn't want to issue the 1099-C, and you are very concerned, you can always inform the IRS.


How is compensation a cancellation of debt?
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ClarkeS1 on 09/15/2022 2:56 PM
Board of Directors section 1
Directors' compensation, if any, shall be set by the affirmative vote of 60% of all Co-owners. (can not find the records of when this actually happened) and the amount is $50.00 per month and is paid by reducing there monthly assessment payment by this amount. Just right at $600.00 per year.
Oh my. I'd say Michigan has broken the mold again.

Exactly $600 translates to the requirement that TimB4 so carefully identified.

The HOA should pay 50 cents less over the course of the year so that, rounded to the nearest dollar, the directors' income is $599, and the paperwork can be avoided?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/15/2022 3:54 PM
Tim would you consider a reduction dues taxable or a way for the HOA to avoid paying taxes? They are not getting a check cut to them. They just do not have to contribute the same rate

I would consider a reduction of assessments that are assessed to all a forgiveness of debt.
Hence, the IRS would consider it taxable income.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/15/2022 3:59 PM
There is no need for a 1099 if the amount is $600.00 or less.

This is not what the IRS is posting on it's website.

Per the link to the 1099-C I posted earlier:

File Form 1099-C for each debtor for whom you canceled $600 or more of a debt owed to you
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/15/2022 4:08 PM

How is compensation a cancellation of debt?

Compensation is being handed a check (which I pointed out is the correct way to pay officers).

Per the the IRS publication:

If your debt is forgiven or discharged for less than the full amount you owe, the debt is considered canceled in the amount that you don't have to pay.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/15/2022 5:06 PM

The HOA should pay 50 cents less over the course of the year so that, rounded to the nearest dollar, the directors' income is $599, and the paperwork can be avoided?

Agree.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/15/2022 5:20 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/15/2022 4:08 PM

How is compensation a cancellation of debt?


Compensation is being handed a check (which I pointed out is the correct way to pay officers).

Per the the IRS publication:

If your debt is forgiven or discharged for less than the full amount you owe, the debt is considered canceled in the amount that you don't have to pay.


I'm not going to argue. I prepare taxes and that is not how we treated a 1099C. This would be treated as a 1099 and the limit is over $600.00.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/15/2022 5:06 PM
Posted By ClarkeS1 on 09/15/2022 2:56 PM
Board of Directors section 1
Directors' compensation, if any, shall be set by the affirmative vote of 60% of all Co-owners. (can not find the records of when this actually happened) and the amount is $50.00 per month and is paid by reducing there monthly assessment payment by this amount. Just right at $600.00 per year.
Oh my. I'd say Michigan has broken the mold again.

Exactly $600 translates to the requirement that TimB4 so carefully identified.

The HOA should pay 50 cents less over the course of the year so that, rounded to the nearest dollar, the directors' income is $599, and the paperwork can be avoided?


$600 - 50cents - 599.50 which rounded up to the nearest dollar is still $600. Therefore shouldn't they pay $1.50 less? This would result in a total of $598.50 which rounds up to $599.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/15/2022 5:06 PM
Posted By ClarkeS1 on 09/15/2022 2:56 PM
Board of Directors section 1
Directors' compensation, if any, shall be set by the affirmative vote of 60% of all Co-owners. (can not find the records of when this actually happened) and the amount is $50.00 per month and is paid by reducing there monthly assessment payment by this amount. Just right at $600.00 per year.
Oh my. I'd say Michigan has broken the mold again.

Exactly $600 translates to the requirement that TimB4 so carefully identified.

The HOA should pay 50 cents less over the course of the year so that, rounded to the nearest dollar, the directors' income is $599, and the paperwork can be avoided?


$600 - 50cents - 599.50 which rounded up to the nearest dollar is still $600. Therefore shouldn't they pay $1.50 less? This would result in a total of $598.50 which rounds up to $599.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/15/2022 3:59 PM
It's not really germaine [sic] to this discussion, but our attorney law firm said that Board members can be paid for work outside of their duties as Board members. They said it was rare, but for example, if an engineer board member oversaw a major construction project that took a lot of hours, that would be above and beyond what a Board member is expected to do and they legally could be compensated for that activity.
Correct, what you posted is not germane at all. You should start a new thread so you can get the dressing down that I think you so richly deserve for proposing this plan.

-- A director who wants employment as some kind of project manager for the HOA should submit a bid just like any other vendor.

-- Said director/project manager candidate must not use any more information than any other vendor has to prepare his/her bid.

-- Said director/project manager candidate must abstain from voting on whether he/she wins the contract. Down the line, he/she must abstain again if and when questions arise that require a board answer.

-- If the project requires particular licensing, the licensee needs to check the rules of ethics (which may have the force of law, depending) for the particular license to see whether conflict of interest requirements are being met.

Serving on a HOA/COA Board is a thankless, time intense, conflict-ridden, and often draining job. If a director resents how much work he/she does for the HOA and for no money, then I think he/she should quit. Similarly when a director starts actively looking for ways to be compensated, then I think it's time to go.

This forum has a purity about it. The long-time posters who have served on boards have done so selflessly. They never speak of seeking out ways to make money from their labor. They're all about service to the community. In this dog eat dog world (such as it is as forests burn, crops go without water, towns flood and more), how heartbreakingly rare indeed this is.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/15/2022 5:29 PM

$600 - 50cents - 599.50 which rounded up to the nearest dollar is still $600. Therefore shouldn't they pay $1.50 less? This would result in a total of $598.50 which rounds up to $599.

Math-o. 51 cents less. $600.00 - $0.51 = $599.49 Rounded to the nearest dollar = $599.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/15/2022 5:28 PM
I'm not going to argue. I prepare taxes and that is not how we treated a 1099C. This would be treated as a 1099 and the limit is over $600.00.
No. It's $600 and up. Easily confirmed at the IRS site.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/15/2022 5:52 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/15/2022 5:28 PM
I'm not going to argue. I prepare taxes and that is not how we treated a 1099C. This would be treated as a 1099 and the limit is over $600.00.
No. It's $600 and up. Easily confirmed at the IRS site.

My tax software will issue 1099 when the dollar amount is over $600.00. It's the largest that tax professional use. I haven't been on the IRS site in 10 years or more.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/15/2022 6:11 PM
I haven't been on the IRS site in 10 years or more.
Yup. It shows.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/15/2022 6:24 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/15/2022 6:11 PM
I haven't been on the IRS site in 10 years or more.
Yup. It shows.

I pay $2000.00 a year for tax software, been doing it for 14 years and never had an issue. Who needs the stinking IRS website, it's put into the software.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ClarkeS1 on 09/15/2022 12:03 PM
Have been on several HOA boards in two different states where board members do not get paid. Moved several months ago to a MI condo association with 35 year old governing doc's and just found out at the annual that the five board members are getting a small reduction in there monthly assessment to be on the board.

Is this unusual? I that because in all my prior experience I have never heard of it.

I have sometimes wondered if paying HOA Board members can be shown to lead to better management? Trusted authorities like my Psych 100 class decades ago would have me believe that getting paid some small amount will tend to make people take the job more seriously. It might even encourage more people to volunteer for the job?

Just curious if there's any reliable research on this, one way or the other?

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
State legislator compensation is all over the map. Several states (Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania) pay over $65,000 per year to their legislators. By contrast, several states pay a few thousand dollars per year. The rest of the states pay somewhere between these numbers.

The following study says more pay = better representation:
https://www.democracydocket.com/analysis/analysis-pay-legislators-more-for-better-representation/

In my words, if one has to work another job to make ends meet, then one does not have time to dedicate to constituents' needs.

I expect the same is true of volunteer HOA/COA directors: The need to work another job means that the tendency may be that a director is not going to give her/his all to serving on the board and getting things right.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 09/16/2022 1:32 PM

I have sometimes wondered if paying HOA Board members can be shown to lead to better management? Trusted authorities like my Psych 100 class decades ago would have me believe that getting paid some small amount will tend to make people take the job more seriously. It might even encourage more people to volunteer for the job?

Just curious if there's any reliable research on this, one way or the other?

BillD

Keep in mind the what I posted earlier.
Being paid means you lose protections under the volunteer protection act.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/16/2022 2:16 PM

Keep in mind the what I posted earlier.
Being paid means you lose protections under the volunteer protection act.

I wonder if the Volunteer Protection Act serves principally those volunteers who do not have the equivalent of D&O insurance. For HOA/COA volunteer directors, is the Volunteer Protection Act superfluous? At the moment, I think so.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
TimB4, I read the links. When an old guy acting pro se frivolously sued ten former and current directors about a dozen years ago in my former HOA, the Volunteer Protection Act never came up. As I have recounted in the past, the guy claimed the board and HOA should never have assessed him, because he alleged he was not receiving services. Eighteen months later the insurance company-provided attorney got the lawsuit dismissed. (Six months earlier I got myself dismissed.)

Also I thought this was an interesting take from the trippscott.com site:

[A]s a result of the immunity created by the Volunteer Protection Act, in consultation with an association's legal counsel and insurance professionals, a homeowners association may no longer need to carry directors and officers insurance, or if such insurance is felt to still be necessary, the limits of liability, and thus the cost, may be substantially reduced.

When a director is sued, to invoke the protections of the VPA, doesn't the director still have to lawyer up?

I remain doubtful that the VPA has any value for HOA/COA directors.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
And this from the trippscott.com site is totally bogus

As a result of the applicability of the federal Volunteer Protection Act, our neighbors no longer need to have a concern that they may become subject to a claim made by a dissatisfied neighbor or one who disagrees with the board's activities."

Directors are routinely named in lawsuits for all manner of alleged wrongdoing. The VPA does not protect directors from claims.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 3:44 PM
TimB4, I read the links. When an old guy acting pro se frivolously sued ten former and current directors about a dozen years ago in my former HOA, the Volunteer Protection Act never came up. As I have recounted in the past, the guy claimed the board and HOA should never have assessed him, because he alleged he was not receiving services. Eighteen months later the insurance company-provided attorney got the lawsuit dismissed. (Six months earlier I got myself dismissed.)

Also I thought this was an interesting take from the trippscott.com site:

[A]s a result of the immunity created by the Volunteer Protection Act, in consultation with an association's legal counsel and insurance professionals, a homeowners association may no longer need to carry directors and officers insurance, or if such insurance is felt to still be necessary, the limits of liability, and thus the cost, may be substantially reduced.

When a director is sued, to invoke the protections of the VPA, doesn't the director still have to lawyer up?

I remain doubtful that the VPA has any value for HOA/COA directors.

I would never serve on a board without D&O insurance. EVER. Just because you may be "protected" by an act doesn't mean people aren't going to sue you. I'm not paying out of pocket for an attorney. I'm a volunteer - the least the association can do is insure me from costs associated with volunteering.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 09/17/2022 10:22 AM
I would never serve on a board without D&O insurance. EVER. Just because you may be "protected" by an act doesn't mean people aren't going to sue you. I'm not paying out of pocket for an attorney. I'm a volunteer - the least the association can do is insure me from costs associated with volunteering.
Yes. This is my point: Even if directors and officers are paid some nominal amount, and so the federal Volunteer Protection Act does not apply, D&O insurance is going to cover the directors and officers.

I read some history on the Volunteer Protection Act. It was created to help encourage people to volunteer. But for god's sake, the VPA absolutely does not stop someone from suing HOA/COA directors, and just being named in a lawsuit is so damning and so burdensome, even with D&O insurance.

Some history of the 1997 VPA and whether this federal statute has made a difference, up to about 2014: https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/npf-2014-0001/html?lang=en
NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605
Posted:
Depending on the HOA, being a Board member can have the work load of a part-time job, especially if no one volunteers to take on projects.

I think a state statute mandating $300-$500 yearly stipend would be fair compensation for an often thankless job.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpB on 09/17/2022 1:38 PM

I think a state statute mandating $300-$500 yearly stipend would be fair compensation for an often thankless job.
More. Like $3000 to $5000. Compare to what city councilors are paid (said councilors having an enormous staff available to answer questions).
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
many non profits have paid CEO's like redcross. most hoas are non profits too. I dontm' see it as unethical or unfair. what is unethical is the entire community expecting a few to work for free.

vis ta vie

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