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MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
As many of you know, we are a community of single family homes. We own a park system in our HOA consisting of 5 parks. The parks are all irrigated by well water and we own a system of 4 wells to provide water to the parks. These are traditional wells with depths that range from 130 to 560 feet deep. We own a cistern that includes float valves and booster pumps. Our irrigation system has approximately 54 separate valves that control the system. We have three play areas, including one zipline, 27 street lights, 24 cluster mailbox units, and two picnic areas.

Bottom line is something always needs maintenance. Once or twice per month, something is broken and needs to be serviced. We hire vendors to come out and do the work, but the vendors need direction. They need photographs of the problem, they need to know where the problem is located. Sometimes the vendors are too busy and then we have to find other vendors to come out. Some vendors want to charge too much and then we need to find affordable vendors. Bottom line is that it's constant Board volunteer time to coordinate the repairs.

We have had 3 separate water outage emergencies in the last 3 years. These are not fun - I have to spend a bit of my workday trying to coordinate emergency repairs to ensure our plants don't die.

I guess I'm wondering - at what point am I doing too much for free? Homeowners are growing used to me being a volunteer, and I can sense a air of entitlement among some of our homeowners. It seems to me that some have an attitude that they need to push me to volunteer more hours and more time to make our community better.

I guess I'm wondering - at what point do we need to hire a professional on site person who can handle all of this stuff, and insist that our homeowners need to pay for that person in the form of dues?

We currently have an offsite property manager who is not really effective at coordinating onsite repairs.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
The Board could hire an irrigation company to handle all of the irrigation issues. The expenditure would be out of the Operating budget.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 09/14/2022 11:55 AM
The Board could hire an irrigation company to handle all of the irrigation issues. The expenditure would be out of the Operating budget.

Unfortuantely, irrigation companies in our area don't work on wells. Well companies don't work on irrigation.

Some of the well repairs require extensive digging, which is not preferred by the well companies and they charge $165 an hour to dig dirt. So it is preferred by the well company that we hire the landscaper to do the dirt digging at $65 an hour. All of these requires coordination between the vendors which I am doing at $0 per hour.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
As you know, MichaelT, I alone have recommended probably 6X that your Board hire a PM that puts in a lot more that the current 6/hr. week your HOA currently pays for. Other posters have recommended the same.

We know you have no onsite facility for such a person.

In addition, while you may think that all of the "free" work you do as a volunteer benefits your community, what about the long-term? Why if you have a *stroke tomorrow that paralyzes your dominant side and causes your voice to be very, very quiet? Temporarily, you need a feeding gturb. From what you've written, NO person in your HOA, NOR your very part-time PM would be able to handle all of the tasks you handle. It actually would be on you that chaos, confusion, break-downs and MORE that would occur.

True leaders have a plan for succession. All human groups, pre-literate or not, tend to have a plan for succession. You do not.

*This happened two week ago to our board treasurer, who'd become very skilled at understanding our complicated budget, 3 reserve accounts, etc. His Finance Committee, comprising a new member and a retiring so-so one, who is traveling aboard. No Other directors have much understanding re: planning our '23 budget. Or do they understand very well our 3 reserve accounts. Our PM only has been with us two months. I met with our VP on the reserve studies and we made good progress because of my knowledge of them. Our MC's Acct. Dept. will undoubtedly be able to help a lot with the '23 op. budget.

My point is with just one aspect of everything in our complex high rise HOA being suddenly vacated, it's been really hectic given it's budget season. In MichaelT's case, he alone understands & manages the entire HOA.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/14/2022 1:15 PM
As you know, MichaelT, I alone have recommended probably 6X that your Board hire a PM that puts in a lot more that the current 6/hr. week your HOA currently pays for. Other posters have recommended the same.

We know you have no onsite facility for such a person.

In addition, while you may think that all of the "free" work you do as a volunteer benefits your community, what about the long-term? Why if you have a *stroke tomorrow that paralyzes your dominant side and causes your voice to be very, very quiet? Temporarily, you need a feeding gturb. From what you've written, NO person in your HOA, NOR your very part-time PM would be able to handle all of the tasks you handle. It actually would be on you that chaos, confusion, break-downs and MORE that would occur.

True leaders have a plan for succession. All human groups, pre-literate or not, tend to have a plan for succession. You do not.

*This happened two week ago to our board treasurer, who'd become very skilled at understanding our complicated budget, 3 reserve accounts, etc. His Finance Committee, comprising a new member and a retiring so-so one, who is traveling aboard. No Other directors have much understanding re: planning our '23 budget. Or do they understand very well our 3 reserve accounts. Our PM only has been with us two months. I met with our VP on the reserve studies and we made good progress because of my knowledge of them. Our MC's Acct. Dept. will undoubtedly be able to help a lot with the '23 op. budget.

My point is with just one aspect of everything in our complex high rise HOA being suddenly vacated, it's been really hectic given it's budget season. In MichaelT's case, he alone understands & manages the entire HOA.

You are exactly right and that is why I have mentioned several that all the work he has done is for nothing unless there is a long term solution such as a full time PM. Otherwise as soon as he leaves things will go backwards and he will watch all his work go down the drain.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
When you're burned out and ready to start snarling at people.

Or you're not snarling but you can't work up the enthusiasm to do a good job.

When you're concerned that your fellow board members are itching to be sued and you don't want to get sued along with them.

When it's starting to affect your health or your personal relationships.

When your housing needs have changed.

When you believe that it's in the community's best long term interest that others develop the necessary knowledge and skills to replace you. (Yeah, that's kinda rationalizing, but it sounds better than "I'm gonna punch out Joe if he brings up dog poop one more time.")

In short, whenever you're ready. The place won't fall apart without you, and it it does Lessons Will Be Learned.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/14/2022 1:30 PM
... snip ...

You are exactly right and that is why I have mentioned several that all the work he has done is for nothing unless there is a long term solution such as a full time PM. Otherwise as soon as he leaves things will go backwards and he will watch all his work go down the drain.

That's kinda where I am, although my community isn't circling the drain.

But you know, I'm not the only person who lives here, and if others don't care enough about it then so be it. One of the best things getting older has taught me is the limits of my ability to control the outcome of things and that the world won't fall apart if I'm not on the job. It'll be different but that's OK (and even if it's not OK, it's still OK).
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Kerry,

While it sounds nice that we just go hire someone to help us out, the issue is homeowners don't want to pay for the increase of dues. Rather, they think there are an endless stream of volunteers like myself and if I depart them someone else just steps up to the plate. Thus, no need to hire people for tasks that volunteers are willing to do.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974
Posted:
Have you considered starting your own property mgmt company?

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/14/2022 2:14 PM
Kerry,

While it sounds nice that we just go hire someone to help us out, the issue is homeowners don't want to pay for the increase of dues. Rather, they think there are an endless stream of volunteers like myself and if I depart them someone else just steps up to the plate. Thus, no need to hire people for tasks that volunteers are willing to do.

Include more hours for an on-site PM in the next budget. If the owners are too lazy to get the votes required to reject it, the problem is solved.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/14/2022 2:14 PM
Kerry,

While it sounds nice that we just go hire someone to help us out, the issue is homeowners don't want to pay for the increase of dues. Rather, they think there are an endless stream of volunteers like myself and if I depart them someone else just steps up to the plate. Thus, no need to hire people for tasks that volunteers are willing to do.

If this is true then your decision is easy. You step down when you are ready to accept that things will not be maintained at the level you want going forward. When this happens you either move or accept it.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/14/2022 2:14 PM
Kerry,

While it sounds nice that we just go hire someone to help us out, the issue is homeowners don't want to pay for the increase of dues. Rather, they think there are an endless stream of volunteers like myself and if I depart them someone else just steps up to the plate. Thus, no need to hire people for tasks that volunteers are willing to do.

Homeowners don't want to pay? Seriously????

You don't give them a choice. Certain tasks required licensed, professional help. As a board, you figure the cost into the budget, and adjust the assessments accordingly. At the next meeting, announce the increase and any pushback, tell them your seat is open as you rise from your chair, heading out the door insuring the door doesn't hit you on the way out.

BE A LEADER.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
MichaelT21,
If you asked your homeowners have as many questions as you ask this site, you should have all the answers already.

As Max has mentioned your HOA needs more help and the only way that happens is if dues are raised and the community realizes the crisis, they have in front of them. What is that famous saying "You have to hit Rock bottom before your figure it out"

Demand more hours from your PMC and get the help that is needed to do the jobs. The HOA will be upset with the increase but what recourse do they have? Move or pay the dues or go into collections. Most will pay the dues.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Damn, Michael - wasn't it two or three conversations ago where you posted where you spoke of how well run your HOA had become since you joined the board several years ago, and wondered if you could not put things on auto-pilot? What happened?

Mark and several others have said it - you need to learn to quit the micromanaging and get a property manager (another one since you also said the one you have often needs your direction to get the job done). I don't know why you won't do it and then complain on this board about all the work you have to do. If you don't learn to say stop, this is what you get - and for some reason I think you actually enjoy the moaning and groaning.

The homeowners may yell, but either they pony up in more assessments or do the work themselves. Say, this might be a nice project for that group of homeowners you complained were always nitpicking about this or that. This should keep them busy and quiet for a while and when they realize the amount of work that is required, they'll get off your back.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/14/2022 2:14 PM
While it sounds nice that we just go hire someone to help us out, the issue is homeowners don't want to pay for the increase of dues.
Why is it you think that owners get to decide what the budget is?

Have you even asked the other directors if they will approve paying a manager (who will do a lot more than the current very part-time manager does)?

I agree with these comments:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 2:51 PM

Include more hours for an on-site PM in the next budget. If the owners are too lazy to get the votes required to reject it, the problem is solved.
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/15/2022 10:15 PM
you need to learn to quit the micromanaging and get a property manager (another one since you also said the one you have often needs your direction to get the job done). I don't know why you won't do it and then complain on this board about all the work you have to do.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 6:09 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/14/2022 2:14 PM
While it sounds nice that we just go hire someone to help us out, the issue is homeowners don't want to pay for the increase of dues.
Why is it you think that owners get to decide what the budget is?

Have you even asked the other directors if they will approve paying a manager (who will do a lot more than the current very part-time manager does)?

I agree with these comments:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 2:51 PM

Include more hours for an on-site PM in the next budget. If the owners are too lazy to get the votes required to reject it, the problem is solved.
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/15/2022 10:15 PM
you need to learn to quit the micromanaging and get a property manager (another one since you also said the one you have often needs your direction to get the job done). I don't know why you won't do it and then complain on this board about all the work you have to do.


Once concern I have is the issue of his incessant need to micro manage. If they ultimately decide to get a full time manager and Michael is still on the board will he be able to let the manager do his or her job? Respectfully, I think it may be best to do this once Michael decides to step down. Otherwise it may be hard to retain a competent manager.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/15/2022 10:15 PM
Damn, Michael - wasn't it two or three conversations ago where you posted where you spoke of how well run your HOA had become since you joined the board several years ago, and wondered if you could not put things on auto-pilot? What happened?

Stuff broke. Our developer gave us some stuff in our community that is unique and there are not a lot of folks out there that service the stuff that our developer used in building our community spaces, it's a royal pain trying to find vendors to fix it.

It's not an association property manager that we need. It's a part time skilled maintenance technician. I've looked but don't think we'd have much luck hiring such a person as that type of person is in high demand.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/16/2022 6:30 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 6:09 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/14/2022 2:14 PM
While it sounds nice that we just go hire someone to help us out, the issue is homeowners don't want to pay for the increase of dues.
Why is it you think that owners get to decide what the budget is?

Have you even asked the other directors if they will approve paying a manager (who will do a lot more than the current very part-time manager does)?

I agree with these comments:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 2:51 PM

Include more hours for an on-site PM in the next budget. If the owners are too lazy to get the votes required to reject it, the problem is solved.
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/15/2022 10:15 PM
you need to learn to quit the micromanaging and get a property manager (another one since you also said the one you have often needs your direction to get the job done). I don't know why you won't do it and then complain on this board about all the work you have to do.



Once concern I have is the issue of his incessant need to micro manage. If they ultimately decide to get a full time manager and Michael is still on the board will he be able to let the manager do his or her job? Respectfully, I think it may be best to do this once Michael decides to step down. Otherwise it may be hard to retain a competent manager.

No, I don't micromanage. I provide the direction that is necessary to get the job done. Our property manager wants a lot of direction because her boss says that as long as she is working at the Board's direction, she won't get in trouble. However, if she makes decisions for the Board without Board direction, she'll get in trouble and potentially fired. So she wants lots of direction via e-mail so there is a paper trail on what we were asking her to do.

The other vendors are the same. I have a positive relationship with the vendors, don't micromanage their work, but provide sufficient direction so the crews can come in, do their job, and move on to the next thing.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/16/2022 6:30 AM
Once concern I have is the issue of his incessant need to micro manage. If they ultimately decide to get a full time manager and Michael is still on the board will he be able to let the manager do his or her job? Respectfully, I think it may be best to do this once Michael decides to step down. Otherwise it may be hard to retain a competent manager.
I was on a HOA board with 1500+ houses and the HOA having responsibility for the irrigation and landscaping of all front yards, including maintaining about 75 industrial-size backflow preventers that failed often. I can imagine all the challenges of coordinating the maintenance of the wells. I would not call his work doing so "micro-managing." I'd call it a necessity at present.

From the sounds of it, if MichaelT21 resigns from the board, the HOA common areas will return to a state of poor maintenance. If he gets back on the board, then there will be a lot of work to shape it up.

I think the better choice is to first attempt to convince the board of the need to contract for a qualified manager.

I bet this is at least the fourth thread where MichaelT21 has raised quitting. Meanwhile, I think the decision-tree is clear here. That he won't lay out the decision-tree and then follow it is curious. So tired he can't think straight? So conflicted he can't think straight? So sick of pushback he cannot even imagine looking for a manager; get the cost of a manager; put it into a budget; and propose it? So in need of pats on the back that he cannot bring himself to be seen as a new and different kind of director-President?

Or many, including myself, need to learn the hard way that not all can be fixed (in the vein of CathyA3's posts), and this has to be okay, or one will self-destruct/burn-out/yada trying to fix the un-fixable.

I still remember his having some $1000+ or so personal property stolen. He'd donated its use to the HOA on certain evenings. While some would call his act kindness, I would call it excessive, manners-wise and director-wise.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Michael, You say this below
No, I don't micromanage. I provide the direction that is necessary to get the job done. Our property manager wants a lot of direction because her boss says that as long as she is working at the Board's direction, she won't get in trouble. However, if she makes decisions for the Board without Board direction, she'll get in trouble and potentially fired. So she wants lots of direction via e-mail so there is a paper trail on what we were asking her to do.

The other vendors are the same. I have a positive relationship with the vendors, don't micromanage their work, but provide sufficient direction so the crews can come in, do their job, and move on to the next thing.

What I think

I would love to hear what your vendors say about your management style. It is not what we think about ourselves it is what others think.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 6:54 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/16/2022 6:30 AM
Once concern I have is the issue of his incessant need to micro manage. If they ultimately decide to get a full time manager and Michael is still on the board will he be able to let the manager do his or her job? Respectfully, I think it may be best to do this once Michael decides to step down. Otherwise it may be hard to retain a competent manager.
I was on a HOA board with 1500+ houses and the HOA having responsibility for the irrigation and landscaping of all front yards, including maintaining about 75 industrial-size backflow preventers that failed often. I can imagine all the challenges of coordinating the maintenance of the wells. I would not call his work doing so "micro-managing." I'd call it a necessity at present.

I'm glad you get it.

I am currently in work of trying to figure out the cost of retiring one set of mechanical components. It looks like it'd cost $20,000 but then would get us a guaranteed, professionally maintained, no headache source of water. I'm going to pitch this to the Board and see where it goes. I can't keep maintaining the stuff.

By the way, thanks for the reminder about the stolen personal property. Turns out that I got it back the next day. It wasn't stolen, but someone put it in their garage for safekeeping and I was able to find the person who was storing it and returned it to me.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 09/16/2022 7:14 AM
By the way, thanks for the reminder about the stolen personal property. Turns out that I got it back the next day. It wasn't stolen, but someone put it in their garage for safekeeping and I was able to find the person who was storing it and returned it to me.
That's good to read this AM.

Buena suerte with the pitch to the board to upgrade a mechanical system. I would keep in mind how this board and the owners are using you -- how they know you have a hard time saying 'no' (or at least, this is my sense).
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 7:22 AM

Buena suerte with the pitch to the board to upgrade a mechanical system. I would keep in mind how this board and the owners are using you -- how they know you have a hard time saying 'no' (or at least, this is my sense).

I'm completely serious about Michael starting his own PMC. If you think about it, he gets dinged for a lot of stuff (obsessiveness, micromanagement, asking for advice with no intent of taking it, etc) that's considered a liability in a volunteer HOA President. But these things would be assets for the owner of a small PMC.

Just sayin'.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 09/16/2022 1:24 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 7:22 AM

Buena suerte with the pitch to the board to upgrade a mechanical system. I would keep in mind how this board and the owners are using you -- how they know you have a hard time saying 'no' (or at least, this is my sense).


I'm completely serious about Michael starting his own PMC. If you think about it, he gets dinged for a lot of stuff (obsessiveness, micromanagement, asking for advice with no intent of taking it, etc) that's considered a liability in a volunteer HOA President. But these things would be assets for the owner of a small PMC.

Just sayin'.

BillD

Kind of like a mini Max?

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