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DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Apologies for the lengthy post, but I feel background needs to be established in order to put my question is its proper context.

Background
Our new community consists of the following. About 150 townhomes and about 500 single family homes. There is a clubhouse, pool, large patio, basketball court, and playground that are for the use of the entire community and funded through a monthly assessment of about $95 against all 650 units.

205 of the single-family homes are designated as an age restricted, 55+ community. This community has its own clubhouse and pool, which are funded by an additional $25/month assessment just against the 55+ lot owners.
Unfortunately, very early in the development of the community it became apparent that there was a general feeling of animosity from the “younger” side of the community against the 55+ side. They feel it is “not fair” that the 55+ side has their own amenities, and no explanation of the facts can change their feelings. When the developer gave up control of the board in May, a board was elected and the entire younger side of the community only voted for themselves, so people who despise the 55+ side dominate the board. The 55+ side only has one of the five board positions, and it is unlikely this will every change.

Very quickly the new board has wasted no time trying to inflict pain on us. When a resale resulted in a child living here in conflict of our age restrictions, they quickly granted a waiver to our rules, and sent a letter to the entire community that painted the family as innocent victims and the 55+ community, many of whom had filed a complaint to the board, as bullies. Our 55+ assessment currently has about a $15,000 surplus, and the board is in discussions about stealing this money from us and using it to pay for projects outside of the 55+ side. There is now outright hatred of one side of the community towards the other.

Question
My proposed solution, at this point, is to advocate for a change in the bylaws that would call for the creation of a 55+ Board of Directors, elected solely by 55+ lot owners. This board would control the 55+ assessment and budget and would control the rules pertaining to the 55+ amenities. If we can convince the board to go along with this plan, I believe they can convince the other side of the community to go along. I have some thoughts about how to sell this to them, and while it would be difficult, I think we would have a reasonable chance of passing this; thus gaining control of our own destiny.
My question is simply one of semantics.

However, using the term “Board of Directors” will, I believe, be troublesome, as those who try to keep the peace constantly use the rallying cry “we are one community”, so the creation of a separate Board of Directors will sound like we are dividing the community. It would be helpful, from a PR standpoint, to instead use the term “55+ Committee,” which would sound less divisive. I know, silly, but this is all about selling an idea, not being rational.

I am curious, though, if it is okay to establish, via bylaws, a standing “Committee” that is elected by owners, rather than a “Board.” Are there any legal issues with a Committee being elected rather than assigned by the Executive Board? All suggestions are welcome, as I really don’t want to sell my home and move, again, at this stage in my life.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why not just have a committee?

Former HOA President
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/14/2022 5:30 AM
Why not just have a committee?


A committee assigned by the Board of Directors, who hate the 55+ side, with nothing in the bylaws giving the committee authority? That won't solve anything, because the Board of Directors would not be bound by anything the committee suggests. It has to be a change in the bylaws so the 55+ is granted legal authority to control their money and amenities.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again... Your bylaws do not have them assigned a board. The master HOA would still rule over their board. So a committee can still have similar structure as a board. You could have a board laison from the master on it. Not unlike a ACC set up.

Over complicating things by insisting on a board set up than committee

Former HOA President
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
"The 55+ side only has one of the five board positions, and it is unlikely this will every change."

if you want to pass the bylaws change, then getting the above fixed would be the first step. is there general apathy? or what is going on that prevents a 55+ from running and winning?

vis ta vie
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/14/2022 6:18 AM
Again... Your bylaws do not have them assigned a board. The master HOA would still rule over their board.


????

This is why I am proposing a change to the bylaws - which would explicitly give the 55+ Board/Committee control over the 55+ budget and rules, and would explicitly call for the election of the Board/Committee members by the 55+ lot owners.

If we don't change the bylaws, nothing is accomplished. If we do change the bylaws, our problems are solved.

My question is whether a "committee" can be defined, in the bylaws, as something elected by the lot owners rather than appointed by the Executive Board.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 09/14/2022 6:25 AM
"The 55+ side only has one of the five board positions, and it is unlikely this will every change."

if you want to pass the bylaws change, then getting the above fixed would be the first step. is there general apathy? or what is going on that prevents a 55+ from running and winning?

Numbers.

There are 450 lots owners who do not live on the 55+ side, and only 205 who do. They will always out-vote us.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 6:28 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 09/14/2022 6:25 AM
"The 55+ side only has one of the five board positions, and it is unlikely this will every change."

if you want to pass the bylaws change, then getting the above fixed would be the first step. is there general apathy? or what is going on that prevents a 55+ from running and winning?


Numbers.

There are 450 lots owners who do not live on the 55+ side, and only 205 who do. They will always out-vote us.

numbers rarely matter in HOA elections. with only 10-30% of the population voting that should easily be overcome with some effort. besides ages are not listed on the ballot are they? how do voters know who is old or young?? I think you need to start thinking
I think I can, ,I think I can like the little blue train.

vis ta vie
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 09/14/2022 6:42 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 6:28 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 09/14/2022 6:25 AM
"The 55+ side only has one of the five board positions, and it is unlikely this will every change."

if you want to pass the bylaws change, then getting the above fixed would be the first step. is there general apathy? or what is going on that prevents a 55+ from running and winning?


Numbers.

There are 450 lots owners who do not live on the 55+ side, and only 205 who do. They will always out-vote us.


numbers rarely matter in HOA elections. with only 10-30% of the population voting that should easily be overcome with some effort. besides ages are not listed on the ballot are they? how do voters know who is old or young?? I think you need to start thinking
I think I can, ,I think I can like the little blue train.


Over 60% voted in our last election, and the board puts which side of the community each resident resides on. They have also weaponized social media to stir up sentiment against those on the 55+ side. Certainly we are, in parallel to the bylaw effort, strategizing on how to get more representation on the board.

But the ultimate solution, and the one to which I am seeking advice, is the correct way to structure a bylaw change that provides permanent protection of our rights while sounding attractive to the entire community. Can bylaws specify that a "Committee" be elected?
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 6:49 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 09/14/2022 6:42 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 6:28 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 09/14/2022 6:25 AM
"The 55+ side only has one of the five board positions, and it is unlikely this will every change."

if you want to pass the bylaws change, then getting the above fixed would be the first step. is there general apathy? or what is going on that prevents a 55+ from running and winning?


Numbers.

There are 450 lots owners who do not live on the 55+ side, and only 205 who do. They will always out-vote us.


numbers rarely matter in HOA elections. with only 10-30% of the population voting that should easily be overcome with some effort. besides ages are not listed on the ballot are they? how do voters know who is old or young?? I think you need to start thinking
I think I can, ,I think I can like the little blue train.


Over 60% voted in our last election, and the board puts which side of the community each resident resides on. They have also weaponized social media to stir up sentiment against those on the 55+ side. Certainly we are, in parallel to the bylaw effort, strategizing on how to get more representation on the board.

But the ultimate solution, and the one to which I am seeking advice, is the correct way to structure a bylaw change that provides permanent protection of our rights while sounding attractive to the entire community. Can bylaws specify that a "Committee" be elected?


Clarification to typo above - the board places on the ballot, next to each candidate's name, which side of the community they live on. The better to identify the "enemy" so votes can be cast accordingly.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
David, I have no idea if this is doable or not but have you explored what it would take to break away and become your own separate community? If the non 55+ community can't stand your community maybe they would be agreeable to doing this?
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/14/2022 7:46 AM
David, I have no idea if this is doable or not but have you explored what it would take to break away and become your own separate community? If the non 55+ community can't stand your community maybe they would be agreeable to doing this?


It would be the most difficult road - I believe it would require an 80% vote. And while the majority seem to hate us, they don't want us to break away because they love the fact that we pay 1/3 of the common expenses though we never really use the pool, clubhouse, etc.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/14/2022 7:46 AM
David, I have no idea if this is doable or not but have you explored what it would take to break away and become your own separate community? If the non 55+ community can't stand your community maybe they would be agreeable to doing this?


It would be the most difficult road - I believe it would require an 80% vote. And while the majority seem to hate us, they don't want us to break away because they love the fact that we pay 1/3 of the common expenses though we never really use the pool, clubhouse, etc.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 8:04 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/14/2022 7:46 AM
David, I have no idea if this is doable or not but have you explored what it would take to break away and become your own separate community? If the non 55+ community can't stand your community maybe they would be agreeable to doing this?


It would be the most difficult road - I believe it would require an 80% vote. And while the majority seem to hate us, they don't want us to break away because they love the fact that we pay 1/3 of the common expenses though we never really use the pool, clubhouse, etc.

I'm with JohnT38: I'd look into splitting up. It seems like 33% of your neighborhood is 55+. You say it would require an 80% vote - but what does that actually *mean*? 80% of all voting residents? 80% of the counted votes? In government elections it's long been a truism that young people don't vote{1} - perhaps you can work that to your advantage?

{1} ObYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0e9guhV35o "Because we're a generation of doers. Not whiners."

(off-topic but this reminds me of Samuel Delany's novel _Triton_, where they held 'elections' where a voter's ballot determined which 'government' they would live under: essentially, your vote was a choice of what kinds of services / benefits / obligations / rules you wanted to live under. I've wondered how well that would actually work in real life. Probably not well. But it does lead me to wonder about having two "cooperating" Boards. My guess is that there'd be lots of bugs in the system)

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 09/14/2022 10:18 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 8:04 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/14/2022 7:46 AM
David, I have no idea if this is doable or not but have you explored what it would take to break away and become your own separate community? If the non 55+ community can't stand your community maybe they would be agreeable to doing this?


It would be the most difficult road - I believe it would require an 80% vote. And while the majority seem to hate us, they don't want us to break away because they love the fact that we pay 1/3 of the common expenses though we never really use the pool, clubhouse, etc.


I'm with JohnT38: I'd look into splitting up. It seems like 33% of your neighborhood is 55+. You say it would require an 80% vote - but what does that actually *mean*? 80% of all voting residents? 80% of the counted votes? In government elections it's long been a truism that young people don't vote{1} - perhaps you can work that to your advantage?

{1} ObYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0e9guhV35o "Because we're a generation of doers. Not whiners."

(off-topic but this reminds me of Samuel Delany's novel _Triton_, where they held 'elections' where a voter's ballot determined which 'government' they would live under: essentially, your vote was a choice of what kinds of services / benefits / obligations / rules you wanted to live under. I've wondered how well that would actually work in real life. Probably not well. But it does lead me to wonder about having two "cooperating" Boards. My guess is that there'd be lots of bugs in the system)


It would require 80% of all lot owners, not just those voting. So that is a nearly impossible task.

I really want to concentrate on updating our bylaws, and would like to hear somebody address my question in my original post.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I think I've suggested this previously: Ask the Legacy owners to chip in and buy some legal expertise & advice of a fine HOA attorney on this topic. Select a handful of Legacy owners to accompany you to a meeting with them.

We have a commercial owner who owns about 5% of our HOA. Our CC&Rs designated them as a "special benefit area." They pay 5% of all operating budget and reserves components provided for their use like yours, David. They have their own small reserve account.

Our Bylaws state they must have one rep on our Board of 7. But the board may not raise their contributions for their own reserve components without their consent.

So, I wonder if there's a way to create something similar solely in the Bylaws vs. the CC&Rs -- let the attorney come up with a method & name.

I think the problem with calling it a committee is the your state corporations code and maybe your own Bylaws give the assn. the authority to form/disband committees and approve/dismiss committee members. You'd still be at the mercy of the majority. I imagine there are similar state statutes about what entities may or may not bear termed a "board of directors."

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/14/2022 11:10 AM
I think I've suggested this previously: Ask the Legacy owners to chip in and buy some legal expertise & advice of a fine HOA attorney on this topic. Select a handful of Legacy owners to accompany you to a meeting with them.

We have a commercial owner who owns about 5% of our HOA. Our CC&Rs designated them as a "special benefit area." They pay 5% of all operating budget and reserves components provided for their use like yours, David. They have their own small reserve account.

Our Bylaws state they must have one rep on our Board of 7. But the board may not raise their contributions for their own reserve components without their consent.

So, I wonder if there's a way to create something similar solely in the Bylaws vs. the CC&Rs -- let the attorney come up with a method & name.

I think the problem with calling it a committee is the your state corporations code and maybe your own Bylaws give the assn. the authority to form/disband committees and approve/dismiss committee members. You'd still be at the mercy of the majority. I imagine there are similar state statutes about what entities may or may not bear termed a "board of directors."


I'm with Kerry. I wish it was otherwise, but I don't see this going far without getting Lawyers involved.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 5:28 AM
When a resale resulted in a child living here in conflict of our age restrictions, they quickly granted a waiver to our rules, and sent a letter to the entire community that painted the family as innocent victims and the 55+ community, many of whom had filed a complaint to the board, as bullies.
I remember this scenario well. After a lot of exchange here at HOATalk about the situation, I think I reversed positions and landed on the side of a waiver, due to signs that the courts are likely to say disability protections trumping all other groups' rights in fair housing. At a minimum expensive litigation seemed likely.

But for the Board to then send out a letter attacking those who had every right to complain is outrageous.

Quote:
Our 55+ assessment currently has about a $15,000 surplus, and the board is in discussions about stealing this money from us and using it to pay for projects outside of the 55+ side. There is now outright hatred of one side of the community towards the other.
Now I do not see the recent thread you started on this topic.

Please remind the forum: Is the provision about paying for the 55+ pool and clubhouse in the Bylaws or the CC&Rs?

Either way, I think your best bet is either to lawyer up and get a court to spell out what the Board can and cannot do with the extra $25 per month each Legacy owner pays; or to attempt an amendment to the bylaws/covenants that attempts to give the board less wiggle room. (Granted I think the wiggle room the board is currently claiming is an incorrect reading of the governing documents.)
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/14/2022 11:42 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 5:28 AM
When a resale resulted in a child living here in conflict of our age restrictions, they quickly granted a waiver to our rules, and sent a letter to the entire community that painted the family as innocent victims and the 55+ community, many of whom had filed a complaint to the board, as bullies.
I remember this scenario well. After a lot of exchange here at HOATalk about the situation, I think I reversed positions and landed on the side of a waiver, due to signs that the courts are likely to say disability protections trumping all other groups' rights in fair housing. At a minimum expensive litigation seemed likely.

But for the Board to then send out a letter attacking those who had every right to complain is outrageous.

Quote:
Our 55+ assessment currently has about a $15,000 surplus, and the board is in discussions about stealing this money from us and using it to pay for projects outside of the 55+ side. There is now outright hatred of one side of the community towards the other.
Now I do not see the recent thread you started on this topic.

Please remind the forum: Is the provision about paying for the 55+ pool and clubhouse in the Bylaws or the CC&Rs?

Either way, I think your best bet is either to lawyer up and get a court to spell out what the Board can and cannot do with the extra $25 per month each Legacy owner pays; or to attempt an amendment to the bylaws/covenants that attempts to give the board less wiggle room. (Granted I think the wiggle room the board is currently claiming is an incorrect reading of the governing documents.)


Yes, I was okay with granting a waiver in order to avoid a lawsuit. But the letter was outrageous. It included false statements, as well as gratuitous comments that served no purpose other than to demonize the 55+ residents. The board then held a "re-welcome party" for the family that was/is in violation; showering them with gifts and cash donations!

As far as the $25/month, I am confident we can lawyer-up and get that money back. Some residents are already in the process. But we will always be at the mercy of non-55+ residents for deciding what to do with our money and how to set our rules. In the current situation, the board could easily change our pool hours to, say 5am to 6am. Or simply provide us with a budget of zero.

I think the best solution is to take a non-adversarial approach, with updates to our bylaws. The bylaws describe the board, budgets, and rule-making authority. We have to take the 55+ budget and rules out of the hands of the greater community.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
I think the next question to ask is whether either the Delaware HOA statute or your covenants provide for your group getting its attorney fees back if it goes to court.

So far I see no such provision in the Delaware HOA statute.

Sadly I think this is a case of 'buyer beware.' Everyone knew who controlled what going into this. I do not mean to be snotty. With incompetent directors who do not reflect on the value of a 55+ community and their covenant-dictated duties to the 55+ community, and notably right out of the gate (with the HOA just having been turned over to the owners), the situation between the Legacy owners and the other owners has already become awful.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/14/2022 12:15 PM
I think the next question to ask is whether either the Delaware HOA statute or your covenants provide for your group getting its attorney fees back if it goes to court.

So far I see no such provision in the Delaware HOA statute.

Sadly I think this is a case of 'buyer beware.' Everyone knew who controlled what going into this. I do not mean to be snotty. With incompetent directors who do not reflect on the value of a 55+ community and their covenant-dictated duties to the 55+ community, and notably right out of the gate (with the HOA just having been turned over to the owners), the situation between the Legacy owners and the other owners has already become awful.


No question we did not perform our due diligence; but it's really because it simply never occurred to any of us that the other side of the community would be so filled with people who are completely void of ethics, and so many others who are willing to support people like that. The irony is that we specifically chose a community that was blended between 55+ and all ages; because we did not want to be stuck with a bunch of old fogies. Now we desperately WISH we had chosen a stand alone 55+ community.

So here we are, trying to figure out how to most efficiently perform damage control in our lives.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/14/2022 11:42 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 5:28 AM

Either way, I think your best bet is either to lawyer up and get a court to spell out what the Board can and cannot do with the extra $25 per month each Legacy owner pays; or to attempt an amendment to the bylaws/covenants that attempts to give the board less wiggle room. (Granted I think the wiggle room the board is currently claiming is an incorrect reading of the governing documents.)


What are your thoughts of a bylaw amendment that calls for the creation of a 55+ Board (or Committee) that is elected by the 55+ Lot Owners, which specifically grants that group the authority to control the 55+ Assessment?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
That's a tough situation.

In "mixed" communities that I've seen, where you have significant differences between sections of the community, the bylaws often require something like proportional representation on the board so no one group can dominate - and that's even when everyone is working and playing nicely with others. But you need to have the necessary votes to amend the bylaws, and you may not.

I think the real issue here, unfortunately, is that the younger board members are being butts, are unqualified for their jobs, are damaging the community through their actions, and risking a lawsuit. Also unfortunately, if you don't have any legal tools to redirect or educate them, you may have to step back and let natural consequences show them the error of their ways. This is time consuming and messy, and everyone will pay the price. But sometimes you have no choice.

Of course, if the board messes up enough, the 55+ section will lose its designation. Will solve one problem, will introduce a bunch more.

This is kinda out of the box, but how likely is it that the 55+ section could legally secede and form your own HOA? The physical layout of the community would have to allow that (access to streets, ability to separate utility lines, etc.). But if it would, that may be something to consider since that section already has its own amenities. It's something to run by the association attorney to at least rule it out as an option. This could be quicker than waiting for the current board to blow things up badly enough to learn lessons. And separating may be expensive due to the legal work and maybe some construction, but so is a string of lawsuits.

(I blame the developer. I think I said this in another thread.)
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 12:44 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/14/2022 11:42 AM

Either way, I think your best bet is either to lawyer up and get a court to spell out what the Board can and cannot do with the extra $25 per month each Legacy owner pays; or to attempt an amendment to the bylaws/covenants that attempts to give the board less wiggle room. (Granted I think the wiggle room the board is currently claiming is an incorrect reading of the governing documents.)


What are your thoughts of a bylaw amendment that calls for the creation of a 55+ Board (or Committee) that is elected by the 55+ Lot Owners, which specifically grants that group the authority to control the 55+ Assessment?


You need to have the necessary votes to amend the bylaws. I'm not sure you do. And generally committees serve at the pleasure of the board, which raises questions as to how effective the committee could be.

Your really problem is that you have some buttheads on the board.

Either you get them to clean up their act (maybe via a Come to Jesus meeting with the association attorney) - or you step back and let them reap the rewards of their actions (the nuclear option) - and/or you file some lawsuits to shorten the length of time needed for the nuclear option to play out.

Or the 55+ section secedes, if possible.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I think if you are going to do that option, you will need to amend the covenants and make them a sub-association. This is because the covenants trump the bylaws.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Observation: it's not unheard of to have warring factions in mixed communities like this, but to have a war immediately after transition to homeowner control is unusual. Something had to set the stage for that level of conflict that early in the community's history. May be helpful to figure out causes and try to address them.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 12:44 PM

What are your thoughts of a bylaw amendment that calls for the creation of a 55+ Board (or Committee) that is elected by the 55+ Lot Owners, which specifically grants that group the authority to control the 55+ Assessment?
What you put in your original post, and kindly repeated above, finally started to sink in.

First, what is the incentive for the non-55+ community to support this? Because your group will need the non-55ers' support when voting time comes.

Perhaps such an amendment reduces the main board's workload?

Second, I anticipate amendments of the CC&Rs and Articles of Incorporation would also be necessary, as they likely speak of a single board.

Third, I wonder if the model to use is that of a bona fide sub-association.

Fourth, I think preparing this (with an attorney) and getting out the vote will be a lot of work. Pace yourself, so if the effort ends up being for nothing, you won't be too unhappy? All you can do is try.

Maybe the attack by the board on the 55+ folks will bring the 55+ group even closer together to wage this battle.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
putting someones age on a ballot probably is age discrimination and can be sued on. you need representation on the board to pass your amendments more easily.

vis ta vie
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/14/2022 3:00 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/14/2022 12:44 PM

What are your thoughts of a bylaw amendment that calls for the creation of a 55+ Board (or Committee) that is elected by the 55+ Lot Owners, which specifically grants that group the authority to control the 55+ Assessment?
What you put in your original post, and kindly repeated above, finally started to sink in.

First, what is the incentive for the non-55+ community to support this? Because your group will need the non-55ers' support when voting time comes.

Perhaps such an amendment reduces the main board's workload?

Second, I anticipate amendments of the CC&Rs and Articles of Incorporation would also be necessary, as they likely speak of a single board.

Third, I wonder if the model to use is that of a bona fide sub-association.

Fourth, I think preparing this (with an attorney) and getting out the vote will be a lot of work. Pace yourself, so if the effort ends up being for nothing, you won't be too unhappy? All you can do is try.

Maybe the attack by the board on the 55+ folks will bring the 55+ group even closer together to wage this battle.

We can offer a few incentives. First, bylaws now require a minimum of one 55+ board member, and we can remove that requirement. Second, currently a simple majority of 55+ owners can reject the BOD’s budget, and we can eliminate that. Finally, one concern on the other side is spending money defending lawsuits regarding our age restriction. We could include an ability for the board to enact special assessments just against 55+ owners to pay for legal expenses related to enforcing our age restriction.

But if we have to change our Declarations, which require a 67% vote, I won’t even try. 51% is conceivable, if very difficult. 67% would be out of the question.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
David,

I suspect that your covenants specify how assessments are to be charged (typically equally amongst all lots).
If they do, then you can not do a special assessment only on the 55+ community for legal expenses.

You need to fully read your covenants (which, as pointed out, trump the bylaws).
If what you are thinking of doing violates the covenants, you will lose if a legal challenge is brought.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Note:

You should not have a "surplus" of funds.

If you don't have a reserve study done yet, get one done. Otherwise, funds that should be deposited in the reserves but are spent elsewhere (because someone thought they were surplus) will come back to haunt the Association in the form or deferred maintenance or special assessments.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/14/2022 9:42 PM
David,

I suspect that your covenants specify how assessments are to be charged (typically equally amongst all lots).
If they do, then you can not do a special assessment only on the 55+ community for legal expenses.

You need to fully read your covenants (which, as pointed out, trump the bylaws).
If what you are thinking of doing violates the covenants, you will lose if a legal challenge is brought.

The Bylaws already allow for special assessments against 55+ only owners to pay for the 55+ common elements, so I don’t see any issue with allowing them for 55+ legal expenses.

As for the surplus, this is unique because each of the last two years the developer has said he is going to turn the clubhouses over to us, but he has not. So we keep budgeting for all expenses, but he continues to pay for utilities.

I do not have the authority to force the board to perform a reserves study. I’m currently struggling just to stop them from stealing our money!

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/15/2022 3:56 AM

The Bylaws already allow for special assessments against 55+ only owners to pay for the 55+ common elements, so I don’t see any issue with allowing them for 55+ legal expenses.

Special assessments for the common elements is one thing.

Legal expenses, part of the overall operating costs, is something else.

Strongly suggest the board get a legal opinion before implementing such an idea.

With the division within the development, I personally think you would do better suggesting a split of the Association.
AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Reasons for a sub-association or maybe separate association look good to me, at least in this early stage of pondering possibilities.

Splitting completely from the non-55+ sounds preferable to me. The question is whether the 55+ side uses, say, the roads (or something else) on the non-55+ side. In what ways are the two sides (55+ and non-55+) tied together (other than on paper)?

Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/15/2022 3:56 AM

The Bylaws already allow for special assessments against 55+ only owners to pay for the 55+ common elements, so I don’t see any issue with allowing them for 55+ legal expenses.
Money in a reserve account is to go directly for repair and replacement of common elements, not legal expenses. (Reserve Studies never include a line item for legal expenses.)
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/15/2022 6:27 AM
Reasons for a sub-association or maybe separate association look good to me, at least in this early stage of pondering possibilities.

Splitting completely from the non-55+ sounds preferable to me. The question is whether the 55+ side uses, say, the roads (or something else) on the non-55+ side. In what ways are the two sides (55+ and non-55+) tied together (other than on paper)?

Posted By DavidG45 on 09/15/2022 3:56 AM

The Bylaws already allow for special assessments against 55+ only owners to pay for the 55+ common elements, so I don’t see any issue with allowing them for 55+ legal expenses.
Money in a reserve account is to go directly for repair and replacement of common elements, not legal expenses. (Reserve Studies never include a line item for legal expenses.)


Everybody on the 55+ would be elated with either a sub-association or splitting entirely. Geographically that would be fine, we don't share any common areas. But I don't think we have any way of accomplishing that, as it would require cooperation from the other side of the community.

As far as 55+ legal expenses, so long as we write it into the bylaws, wouldn't that be fine? That is something the other side of the community would be happy to agree to.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/15/2022 6:49 AM
As far as 55+ legal expenses, so long as we write it into the bylaws, wouldn't that be fine? That is something the other side of the community would be happy to agree to.
Just as long as whatever amendments you are proposing give the 55+ side its own budget (for operating expenses, reserves, everything) and the authority to assess as needed the 55+ owners, then the 55+ side can spend money on attorneys to the 55+ side's board's content.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
After reading all of this, i`m inclined to agree with John and Cathy. I don't know if an amendment will work unless you can convince a significant number of the "450 crowd" to support it. 8 yhink it's time to talk to your neighbors about seceeding from the community so you can run the 55+ community as you see fit. As things now stand you'll always get out voted because you don't have the numbers.

This won't be quick or cheap, and if you pull it off, you'll still have you address the owners with the grandchild - and possible bad publicity if you try to evict them. And your assessments will go up considerably because you won't have the larger community.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but if you'd like to try to get tge amendment, you andyiur neighbors need to begin talking to the "450 crowd" to support your bid for more say in all community issues. That may require a rewrite of several parts of the documents.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/15/2022 2:06 PM
After reading all of this, i`m inclined to agree with John and Cathy. I don't know if an amendment will work unless you can convince a significant number of the "450 crowd" to support it. 8 yhink it's time to talk to your neighbors about seceeding from the community so you can run the 55+ community as you see fit. As things now stand you'll always get out voted because you don't have the numbers.

This won't be quick or cheap, and if you pull it off, you'll still have you address the owners with the grandchild - and possible bad publicity if you try to evict them. And your assessments will go up considerably because you won't have the larger community.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but if you'd like to try to get tge amendment, you andyiur neighbors need to begin talking to the "450 crowd" to support your bid for more say in all community issues. That may require a rewrite of several parts of the documents.

I don’t understand what you are saying. I already know getting an amendment will be difficult, as we need to get 51% of all lot owners to agree.

But at least there is a known and feasible path. I know of no way to split away, so that seems like a less feasible option.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
This should be two separate HOA. I don't think they should be under the umbrella of a master association. A 55+ association is a different beast within itself. If this would be me, and I were stupid enough to live in another HOA, I would be going to the local planning department of your city and also some elected officials. Attorneys, IMHO, screwed this up at the very beginning.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/15/2022 4:18 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 09/15/2022 2:06 PM
After reading all of this, i`m inclined to agree with John and Cathy. I don't know if an amendment will work unless you can convince a significant number of the "450 crowd" to support it. 8 yhink it's time to talk to your neighbors about seceeding from the community so you can run the 55+ community as you see fit. As things now stand you'll always get out voted because you don't have the numbers.

This won't be quick or cheap, and if you pull it off, you'll still have you address the owners with the grandchild - and possible bad publicity if you try to evict them. And your assessments will go up considerably because you won't have the larger community.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but if you'd like to try to get tge amendment, you andyiur neighbors need to begin talking to the "450 crowd" to support your bid for more say in all community issues. That may require a rewrite of several parts of the documents.


I don’t understand what you are saying. I already know getting an amendment will be difficult, as we need to get 51% of all lot owners to agree.

But at least there is a known and feasible path. I know of no way to split away, so that seems like a less feasible option.



Read Max's response - THAT'S what I was getting at. You don't know how to split away because no one's discussed that part with an attorney, which you'd have to do (and pay for) to pull off. Yes, you do have an option to push the amendment and I hope you succeed, but if you don't, this may be the nuclear option you'll have to take. Or learn to live with this - or say the hell with it and move to the stand-alone community that the developer should have set up from the beginning. I wish you well in whatever you choose to do.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
We've actually flirted with these issues in previous posts by DavidG45. I commented a few times that the developer appeared to be inexperienced since some decisions he'd made were setting up this community for problems in the future (IMHO). Basically he didn't seem to realize that the distinctions between sections of the community were legal ones and not just physical or economic ones.

In my area, all of the 55+ communities are either individual communities, or they are sub-associations within a larger master association and have their own CC&Rs, boards, finances, etc. In the latter case they function almost entirely as independent communities, with maybe an annual assessment paid to the master association for things like access to streets or utility lines.

Along with the others, I strongly suggest that the board of DavidG45's community talk to the association attorney ASAP. The laws governing 55+ communities are pretty strict and the consequences of not following them can be painful since these laws are an exemption from the Fair Housing provisions - and the "young guns" on the board seem determined to set the stage for a Fair Housing lawsuit, not realizing the money will be coming out of their pockets as well.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 09/16/2022 5:22 AM
We've actually flirted with these issues in previous posts by DavidG45. I commented a few times that the developer appeared to be inexperienced since some decisions he'd made were setting up this community for problems in the future (IMHO). Basically he didn't seem to realize that the distinctions between sections of the community were legal ones and not just physical or economic ones.

In my area, all of the 55+ communities are either individual communities, or they are sub-associations within a larger master association and have their own CC&Rs, boards, finances, etc. In the latter case they function almost entirely as independent communities, with maybe an annual assessment paid to the master association for things like access to streets or utility lines.

Along with the others, I strongly suggest that the board of DavidG45's community talk to the association attorney ASAP. The laws governing 55+ communities are pretty strict and the consequences of not following them can be painful since these laws are an exemption from the Fair Housing provisions - and the "young guns" on the board seem determined to set the stage for a Fair Housing lawsuit, not realizing the money will be coming out of their pockets as well.


Yes, the developer is actually a pretty big construction company whose history is primarily roads and bridges; this was their first foray into residential. And the 55+ was an afterthought, added as an amendment with just a few tweaks to the governing documents to recognize its existence, with a weak attempt to protect our rights by requiring one of the five board members to be a 55+ resident.

Currently I am following a five-pronged strategy.

First, things would actually be okay if we simply did not have board members who are eager to inflict pain upon the 55+ side of the community. They simply have to be decent folks. So we will look for candidates from the "other" side of the community in the next election who will have the interests of the entire community at heart. While we cannot get our own candidates elected, our support for candidates from the other side could almost guarantee victory for those reasonable candidates.

Second, remain on the finance committee so I have some input into the decision-making process.

Third, foster and develop relationships with people on the other side of the community. Attend their social events (even though the social committee chair despises me and the entire 55+ side) and put forward a friendly face.

Fourth, look for a way to protect our interests through bylaw changes; which "only" require 51% of the vote.

Finally, wait for the board to completely screw us over, then file suit with a request to the courts that our governing documents be re-written in a way to protects our interests.

____________

Note, I was really trying to focus on realistic bylaw changes in this thread. I am starting to have some doubts about whether or not that is realistic.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 5:35 AM

Finally, wait for the board to completely screw us over, then file suit with a request to the courts that our governing documents be re-written in a way to protects our interests.
Just saying: I do not think a court would ever 're-write' bylaws. Courts interpret bylaws and occasionally, throw out amendments to same. Nothing more.

Nor do I see any elected official or city staff having grounds to take action here. Why? There's nothing unlawful in the covenants and bylaws. "A deal's a deal."

I continue to think the amendment option (yielding either a sub-association; a wholly separate 55+ association; or more financial independence for the 55+ association) is the best. I expect the volunteer hours to try to make this happen will be enormous, with no guarantee of success.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 6:22 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 5:35 AM

Finally, wait for the board to completely screw us over, then file suit with a request to the courts that our governing documents be re-written in a way to protects our interests.
Just saying: I do not think a court would ever 're-write' bylaws. Courts interpret bylaws and occasionally, throw out amendments to same. Nothing more.

Nor do I see any elected official or city staff having grounds to take action here. Why? There's nothing unlawful in the covenants and bylaws. "A deal's a deal."

I continue to think the amendment option (yielding either a sub-association; a wholly separate 55+ association; or more financial independence for the 55+ association) is the best. I expect the volunteer hours to try to make this happen will be enormous, with no guarantee of success.


I agree. That's why the lawsuit is the final, desperate, option. Playing nice, staying involved, and being strategic at elections are the top priorities, because they are the most achievable.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 6:22 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 5:35 AM

Finally, wait for the board to completely screw us over, then file suit with a request to the courts that our governing documents be re-written in a way to protects our interests.
Just saying: I do not think a court would ever 're-write' bylaws. Courts interpret bylaws and occasionally, throw out amendments to same. Nothing more.

Nor do I see any elected official or city staff having grounds to take action here. Why? There's nothing unlawful in the covenants and bylaws. "A deal's a deal."

I continue to think the amendment option (yielding either a sub-association; a wholly separate 55+ association; or more financial independence for the 55+ association) is the best. I expect the volunteer hours to try to make this happen will be enormous, with no guarantee of success.


I agree. That's why the lawsuit is the final, desperate, option. Playing nice, staying involved, and being strategic at elections are the top priorities, because they are the most achievable.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 6:26 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 6:22 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 5:35 AM

Finally, wait for the board to completely screw us over, then file suit with a request to the courts that our governing documents be re-written in a way to protects our interests.
Just saying: I do not think a court would ever 're-write' bylaws. Courts interpret bylaws and occasionally, throw out amendments to same. Nothing more.

Nor do I see any elected official or city staff having grounds to take action here. Why? There's nothing unlawful in the covenants and bylaws. "A deal's a deal."

I continue to think the amendment option (yielding either a sub-association; a wholly separate 55+ association; or more financial independence for the 55+ association) is the best. I expect the volunteer hours to try to make this happen will be enormous, with no guarantee of success.


I agree. That's why the lawsuit is the final, desperate, option. Playing nice, staying involved, and being strategic at elections are the top priorities, because they are the most achievable.


David, you may be able to use the animosity and conflict between the two communities to your advantage. It's actually a selling point to persuade them to agree to a formal split. Like others I do not see how you can pull off your other plan but I do wish you well. You are obviously willing and able to take on this issue and that speaks well of you.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 09/16/2022 6:34 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 6:26 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/16/2022 6:22 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 5:35 AM

Finally, wait for the board to completely screw us over, then file suit with a request to the courts that our governing documents be re-written in a way to protects our interests.
Just saying: I do not think a court would ever 're-write' bylaws. Courts interpret bylaws and occasionally, throw out amendments to same. Nothing more.

Nor do I see any elected official or city staff having grounds to take action here. Why? There's nothing unlawful in the covenants and bylaws. "A deal's a deal."

I continue to think the amendment option (yielding either a sub-association; a wholly separate 55+ association; or more financial independence for the 55+ association) is the best. I expect the volunteer hours to try to make this happen will be enormous, with no guarantee of success.


I agree. That's why the lawsuit is the final, desperate, option. Playing nice, staying involved, and being strategic at elections are the top priorities, because they are the most achievable.



David, you may be able to use the animosity and conflict between the two communities to your advantage. It's actually a selling point to persuade them to agree to a formal split. Like others I do not see how you can pull off your other plan but I do wish you well. You are obviously willing and able to take on this issue and that speaks well of you.


The problem is that the other side wants our monthly $$$, most would not want to split. Even some on the 55+ would not favor a full split. I think the better opportunity is to give them some of the things I mentioned earlier, in exchange for letting us manage our amenities and money ourselves.

I the meantime, we will try to get reasonable people on the board.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/16/2022 8:44 AM
... snip ...

The problem is that the other side wants our monthly $$$, most would not want to split. Even some on the 55+ would not favor a full split. I think the better opportunity is to give them some of the things I mentioned earlier, in exchange for letting us manage our amenities and money ourselves.

I the meantime, we will try to get reasonable people on the board.


Whoa, whoa, whoa.

I hope I'm misunderstanding, and I hope that "our monthly $$$" refers to your share of the expenses toward maintaining *shared" common area. The additional assessment you pay to maintain the 55+ common area and other support expenses (your clubhouse, for example) is designated for those expenses only, and *may not* be used for any other purpose. In other words, the rest of the community will get zero, zip, zilch of the 55+ assessment dollars.

I vaguely remember having the vapors when you'd said (I think) in another thread that the entire community's assessment dollars were going into a single pot. For reasons just like this.

Splitting out these expenses properly is something you can and should be doing now, since I doubt that your governing documents get into that level of detail. In the communities I'm familiar with, the master association has an annual assessment that pays for upkeep of common area and amenities used by the entire community, and everybody pays this. The sub-associations have separate, additional assessments to pay for their own common areas, and these are in separate accounts with separate balance sheets and separate budgets, and the funds are not co-mingled with master association funds. Funds designated for the master should never be used for sub expenses, and vice versa. Shortfalls in other may not be offset by funds in another. Keeping funds physically separated will help prevent these things from happening.

So separating the community won't mean that "the other side" won't get the necessary dollars that are needed to maintain the shared common areas. They just won't get the dollars that they're not entitled to.

You'll probably get pushback even on this, but the folks outside of the 55+ area seem to be badly uninformed about how this stuff should work (and the potential consequences if people play fast and loose). A decent auditor's opinion may be helpful, in addition to the lawyer's advice.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Cathy wrote: "The sub-associations have separate, additional assessments to pay for their own common areas, and these are in separate accounts with separate balance sheets and separate budgets, and the funds are not co-mingled with master association funds." this is how it is for a our "Spiral Benefit Area" and it IS spelled out in our CC&Rs.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I'm concerned that this separation won't be spelled out in David's CC&Rs since (I think) he'd mentioned previously that everything was being kept together by the PM. And he said up-thread here that adding the 55+ section was basically an afterthought on the developer's part. If this is the case, that's one more hurdle to overcome.

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