Help interpreting condo CCRs re common pipes

Started by LauraG8 • 9 replies • 255 views

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LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Our HOA manager interprets this section of our CCRs as saying that the common condensation lines in our 3-story bldg are the owner’s responsibility, not the Association’s, yet the HOA has frequently paid to unclog those lines.

I’m on the board and could really use some help figuring out why management is taking that stance in a case where *clearly this 1st floor unit’s clogged line was not due to negligence (as confirmed by their plumber).

Under the UTILITIES section of our CC&Rs, it states:

“The rights and duties of the owners with respect to lines for sanitary sewer, water, gas, electricity, telephone cables and air conditioning, if any, shall be governed by the following rules:”

“In the event any portion of such connection or line is damaged or destroyed by some cause other than the negligent or willful misconduct of one of the unit owners, his agents, tenants, servants, guests, invitees or family members, including within such definition ordinary wear and tear and deterioration from lapse of time, then in such event such connection, line or cable shall be rapaired and restored by the
Association, with the cost and expense of such repair and restoration to be paid out of assessments levied in accordance with this Declaration equally against all owners.”

There’s another paragraph which deals with negligence, but it’s this wording that I need a little help with.

Thank you.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Check the section of your CC&Rs where it defines "unit", "common elements" and "limited (exclusive use) common elements".

Then check for any sections where it defines owner responsibilities and association responsibilities. You may have to look in more than one area, particularly if you come across language such as "except as specified elsewhere". We even have language relevant to assessments and utilities in our bylaws, where you wouldn't expect to find it.

Many condo CC&Rs will say that the unit owner is responsible for utility lines that serve their unit only, even if those lines are within common elements such as an exterior wall. It can be confusing.

Another complication can arise if the issue is due to an insurable event or not. If your association has all-included insurance (*), it will cover parts the units that the owners are responsible for when dealing with routine maintenance. Stuff like clogs are generally maintenance issues, but maybe not if a flood caused the clog. Check your CC&Rs to see what kind of insurance your association is required to carry, or check with your insurance agent if you think you're dealing with something other than routine maintenance.

(* Note: not every condo association carries this type of insurance! Some insure common elements only. I think it depends in large part on the structure of your buildings.)

Did I mention this was confusing..?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LauraG8 on 09/11/2022 1:05 AM
... snip ....

Under the UTILITIES section of our CC&Rs, it states:

“The rights and duties of the owners with respect to lines for sanitary sewer, water, gas, electricity, telephone cables and air conditioning, if any, shall be governed by the following rules:”

“In the event any portion of such connection or line is damaged or destroyed by some cause other than the negligent or willful misconduct of one of the unit owners, his agents, tenants, servants, guests, invitees or family members, including within such definition ordinary wear and tear and deterioration from lapse of time, then in such event such connection, line or cable shall be rapaired and restored by the
Association, with the cost and expense of such repair and restoration to be paid out of assessments levied in accordance with this Declaration equally against all owners.”
...

OK, I'm not a lawyer and legalese can be difficult to parse...

I'm going to assume that this section applies to common elements or limited common elements that the association is responsible for according to the CC&Rs. I think this is just saying that the association is required to repair any damage that falls under the definition of "routine maintenance" and that the repairs are paid for out of assessments.

This excludes damage resulting from insurable events and from misuse on the part of owners or persons associated with the owners, where "misuse" is defined as deliberate or negligent acts. I expect there will be language elsewhere in the C&Rs that gives the association the right to assess the individual owners for costs incurred because of their or their associates' "misuse". This is pretty typical.

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Thank you for your helpful input.

This is 3-story condo building where the shared condensate line runs through the ACs from the top unit to the bottom unit (where this owner resides) and then drains directly down to the garage main plumbing lines.

This was an insurable event and the HOA has walls-in coverage. Unit owner had been out of town for a week, and no water on the floor when he returned. He ran his AC for approx an hour and then heard dripping coming from the AC closet, water on the floor, AC drain pan overflowing with water. He had preventative maintenance on his AC September of last year.

I read this as saying that repair of the line is the HOA’s responsibility and so is any damage caused by the line’s disrepair. The HOA should have maintained the shared condensate line. Instead, they prefer to just pay for unclogging them?

I don’t understand how this condensate line is “not the HOA’s problem” now.

AndrewS10 (North Carolina)
Posts: 9

Posted:

For our condo our Unit is defined in the declarations

(e) all heating and air conditioning equipment and accompanying ducts
and components (if separate for each unit);

We do have separate condensate lines for each unit. The air handlers are in the unit and the heat pump is outside at ground level.

You need to definitely make sure you have shared condensate lines but with the top unit the condensate line would not be shared until after the air handler for the unit downstairs so unless the middle unit also flooded the clog would not be in a shared pipe.

I am not a lawyer but I am just making a case. Also if the float switch did no work to shut the unit off it would give a case of negligence of maintenance on the part of the owner. The AC Service technician may not of tested to see if the float switch was working but it still falls back to the owner.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

My high rise condo bldg. has condensate lines that run many stories from one Unit to the next below it. In our case, one very slender line 1/2" runs from the 17th to the 3rd floor. There is a pan under each water source heat pump (HVAC) equipment in every unit. An opening-- a tiny drain-- in that pan allows condensation to run down this slender line as Laura describes. The tray in our heat pump does not slide out for maintenance--It's attached to the heat pump.

Our HOA offers annual maintenance at $170 per heat pump (many units have 2, some have 3 or 4). Among several other tasks, technicians clean the pans and place algaecide tablets in them so that any tiny bits of organic material don't grow from constant moisture. If these bits do grow, they cause clogs where the condensation cannot flow through the tiny drain & slender line. If the materials makes it into the line it can get hung up and cause a clog anywhere in its path.

In my HOA, it frees the clog as in our multiple stories there's no way to tell for certain "who" caused the clog. In any case, in my HOA, it's the owner's insurance that would pay for the damage to the Owner's unit. The HOA's insurance would only cover the damage form this or any other clog is it's shown the HOA was negligent.

I don't see in your citation, Laura (switch Cathy), that the HOA pays for damage to the Owners separate interest (their condo) from the clog-induced water event. This would be the case in my condo based on our insurance which doesn't include anything beyond the sheet rock.

Laura's & mine are not at all like yours, Andrew.

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AndrewS10 on 09/11/2022 10:37 AM
For our condo our Unit is defined in the declarations

(e) all heating and air conditioning equipment and accompanying ducts
and components (if separate for each unit);

We do have separate condensate lines for each unit. The air handlers are in the unit and the heat pump is outside at ground level.

You need to definitely make sure you have shared condensate lines but with the top unit the condensate line would not be shared until after the air handler for the unit downstairs so unless the middle unit also flooded the clog would not be in a shared pipe.

I am not a lawyer but I am just making a case. Also if the float switch did no work to shut the unit off it would give a case of negligence of maintenance on the part of the owner. The AC Service technician may not of tested to see if the float switch was working but it still falls back to the owner.

Andrew, thank you for your response.

It’s been confirmed that we have a SHARED 3/4” copper condensate line running down from 3rd floor unit to this 1st floor unit and then down to main plumbing lines below. None of the a/c’s in the bldg have a float switch to alert the owner of a clog and shut the a/c down.

The way I read this section of our CCRs, the a/c lines are the unit’s responsibility to repair only in the event of owner negligence. Otherwise, a/c lines are the responsibility of the HOA.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

It sounds to me like Laura's association has insurance similar to Kerry's association and unlike mine (which is all-included). In my community the association's insurance would cover damage to the unit owner's flooring and drywall, which appears to contradict the maintenance responsibilities outlined in our CC&Rs. It doesn't really contradict since this only applies to insurable events, not to routine maintenance - but all-in insurance can be confusing.

If I understand correctly, with walls-in insurance, the association's insurance would only cover repairs to the the common elements, not any part of the unit.

However, the unit owner's HO6 policy may cover damage to the unit. So I suggest letting the various insurance companies sort this out. They deal with this stuff all the time, so they'll know who's responsible for what. They'll also deal with any "negligence", although it doesn't sound like the unit owner was negligent. (FWIW, our insurance agent said they don't consider negligence or who "caused" the problem - it's strictly who's responsible for what according to the CC&Rs. But I've heard others say that they do it differently, so it's worth asking.)

LauraG8 (California)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/11/2022 11:43 AM
My high rise condo bldg. has condensate lines that run many stories from one Unit to the next below it. In our case, one very slender line 1/2" runs from the 17th to the 3rd floor. There is a pan under each water source heat pump (HVAC) equipment in every unit. An opening-- a tiny drain-- in that pan allows condensation to run down this slender line as Laura describes. The tray in our heat pump does not slide out for maintenance--It's attached to the heat pump.

Our HOA offers annual maintenance at $170 per heat pump (many units have 2, some have 3 or 4). Among several other tasks, technicians clean the pans and place algaecide tablets in them so that any tiny bits of organic material don't grow from constant moisture. If these bits do grow, they cause clogs where the condensation cannot flow through the tiny drain & slender line. If the materials makes it into the line it can get hung up and cause a clog anywhere in its path.

In my HOA, it frees the clog as in our multiple stories there's no way to tell for certain "who" caused the clog. In any case, in my HOA, it's the owner's insurance that would pay for the damage to the Owner's unit. The HOA's insurance would only cover the damage form this or any other clog is it's shown the HOA was negligent.

I don't see in your citation, Laura (switch Cathy), that the HOA pays for damage to the Owners separate interest (their condo) from the clog-induced water event. This would be the case in my condo based on our insurance which doesn't include anything beyond the sheet rock.

Laura's & mine are not at all like yours, Andrew.

Thank you, Kerry!

Ours are heat pumps too, with just 1 in each unit. Like yours, there’s no way to tell for certain who caused the clog.

The bldg is 41 yrs old and most of the units still have the original heat pump with the attached drain pan. There are no written maintenance requirements for the a/c’s, and I’m thinking we need to establish some guidelines to educate the owners how these lines work and how crucial regular maintenance is. The HOA has never regularly maintained these condensate lines.

“Unit” in our CCRs is defined as follows: Unit shall mean the elements of a condominium which are not owned in common with owners of other condominiums in the Project. The boundaries of the 24 units in Lot I of Tract No.
38928, are shown and defined on the Condominium Plan, as herein-after defined.

Our HOA has a walls-in master policy.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

My initial bluish is once it passed out of a unit, is is the HOA's problem/cost unless negligence on the owner's part.

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