No Real CC&R’s in our HOA. Frustrating

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

I need advice and help. A description to start. Sorry it’s long.

Recently moved into a brand new home in upstate South Carolina. The neighborhood is still being built but has approximately 100 homes completed so far. All with residents. The pool is being built currently. I am a member of the landscape committee. The chairman of the landscape committee was appointed by one of the HOA board members. The chairman of the landscape committee uses his position of authority to play god and design this neighborhood in his own image basically. The only thing written for a basic CC&R is that the homeowner is to fill out a form and draw plans for any type of landscape design changes. I and a few others are on the committee to apparently just hand out forms to anywho asks for one.
There are no written rules on lawn care or weed control. Nothing! Perhaps this is because the HOA has taken it upon themselves to provide lawn mowing, trimming, and blowing of driveway, patios, and sidewalks. The landscaper also is to provide application of fertilizer and weed killer. The fertilizer and weed killer is not working in this neighborhood! Everyone’s yard is full of weeds. The grass is barely staying green. This “a mature good ol boy” crew uses Scott’s weed and feed and some kind of spray occasionally.

I myself have told the landscaper to stay out of my yard. I have a real professional fertilizer and weed control company provide applications to my yard. I have also decided to mow my own lawn and it shows. Nothing gets scalped. My lawn is the greenest and most weed free lawn in the neighborhood.

To my issue.

My neighbor has allowed their bermudagrass sod to die completely. They are now weed and dirt farmers. I asked the hoa management company, hoa chairman and landscape chairman to please deal with this issue. Their reply was that there is “ In reviewing the governing documents for your community I did not see any language that requires owners to water their lawns. I will forward your concerns and questions to the board so that they are aware of this issue.”. The chairman of the hoa has asked the landscape company to quote an extra 2 applications of weed and feed per year. I guess if the first 6 don’t work, 2 more should do it.

What do I want?

How can I start forcing the issue of not having any decent CC&R’s written?
HOA fees are $100 a month. Lawns mowed, edged, blown every week during growing season, and soon to be pool and common area cared for too. I’m guessing this will not be sustainable at this price to residents and the fees will be raised and continue to be for this sub par service. I believe these guys are taking advantage of the cheap services and treating this place as a 55+ community when it is not.
What fo I look for in the current documents about elections? I want to run against the current landscape committee chairman.

Sorry for the long winded post here. Just very frustrated and not feeling good about the apparent laziness of the current HOA leadership. This includes two board members that are Lennar employees until the neighborhood is completed. Just looking for general advice on how to improve things and I’m willing to put in the work. Thank you

HarryB5 (Florida)
Posts: 5

Posted:

I am in Florida, not South Carolina so can respond only in broad, general terms.

In various situations I have seen the developer nearly always writes the CCR to benefit them, and facilitate the sales of as many homes as possible at the highest possible price in a reasonable period of time.

Often, sub standard infrastructure items are installed. Things like lift stations, grinder pumps, power distribution, etc. A lot also depends on the local building inspector or plan review department - do they actually enforce the code or are they in the building industry pocket?

Definitely keep your seat on the board. Look at whatever CCR or state statutes exist with an eye to transferring the subdivision to home owner control immediately as soon as possible.

Try to form a friendly group of 5-6 owners who feel the same way, a turnover team if you will. When owner control is still fresh, and original owners are still perhaps dissatisfied with the builder is the optimal time to amend CCRs to work for long term owners.

It is also the best time to make sure the developer (builder) is living up to its obligations.

If you can afford it, involve a competent attorney who specializes in community association law. This field of law is not something an attorney should 'dabble in.'

Hope this helps.

Harry licensed Florida CAM and current long time condo board member

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Can't argue with with what Harry suggested. Don't know why, but I get a feeling the developer is going through some financial hardship and is letting things slide. Unfo, until the owners take over, there may be a limit to what you can do. That $100 assessment is probably too low as well, so when you and your neighbors do take over, be prepared to see them increase - a lot.

I notice both of you are new - welcome to the forum! There are a number of Florida residents who post here from time to time, so I hope you'll find this site useful. Harry, there are several property managers who post, so it'll be great to see all of you comment on various topics.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Your one of "those" people. I bet because you upkeep your yard you think should now get a discount on your HOA dues? Not going to happen. The reality is if your HOA hires a lawncare service to handle all it's properties, then it's going to be the "standard" for all houses what they do. If your HOA doesn't, then it's pretty limited on enforcement as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

We have one of those "Perfect lawn" people in our neighborhood. The rest of us? We are happy to get the yard mowed. Some hire private contractors to mow. Some of us mow it ourselves. Some are rentals or newly built the owners have not taken care of the lawn. Plus a few lawns are just getting sod put down due to just being built. It has not established enough to do proper care yet. We are in a drought situation and sod is struggling. Last year we got hit with "Army worms".

My point is that no one's yard is going to be "standard" because no one's situation is 'standard". Have someone who has particular standards involved just makes it worse. Our HOA is still developer owned. So they issue out fines as they see fit if the yards are obvious weedy/neglected. Otherwise, we just have to present them proof we are making an effort to keep our yards in good shape. Most just get a sign from a company stating their yard has weed treatment.

My neighbor after army worm hit decided to over seed his yard with Fescue when we have Bermuda grass. It stayed green all year round. Summer hit. Guess what? All that fescue died. The yard is now patches of missing/dead grass. It's terrible. However, all year it's been green ad healthy looking. Were they in violation of the rules and need to have a fine? Hard to tell if we don't have a rule that says must me bermuda.

Former HOA President

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/17/2022 4:33 AM
Your one of "those" people. I bet because you upkeep your yard you think should now get a discount on your HOA dues? Not going to happen. The reality is if your HOA hires a lawncare service to handle all it's properties, then it's going to be the "standard" for all houses what they do. If your HOA doesn't, then it's pretty limited on enforcement as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

We have one of those "Perfect lawn" people in our neighborhood. The rest of us? We are happy to get the yard mowed. Some hire private contractors to mow. Some of us mow it ourselves. Some are rentals or newly built the owners have not taken care of the lawn. Plus a few lawns are just getting sod put down due to just being built. It has not established enough to do proper care yet. We are in a drought situation and sod is struggling. Last year we got hit with "Army worms".

My point is that no one's yard is going to be "standard" because no one's situation is 'standard". Have someone who has particular standards involved just makes it worse. Our HOA is still developer owned. So they issue out fines as they see fit if the yards are obvious weedy/neglected. Otherwise, we just have to present them proof we are making an effort to keep our yards in good shape. Most just get a sign from a company stating their yard has weed treatment.

My neighbor after army worm hit decided to over seed his yard with Fescue when we have Bermuda grass. It stayed green all year round. Summer hit. Guess what? All that fescue died. The yard is now patches of missing/dead grass. It's terrible. However, all year it's been green ad healthy looking. Were they in violation of the rules and need to have a fine? Hard to tell if we don't have a rule that says must me bermuda.

You couldn’t be further off base with the “wanting a discount on hoa fees”. So calm down.

The problem with the hoa providing fertilizer and weed control treatment is they have set themselves into a conflict of interest situation. They can’t complain about horrible looking lawns when it is themselves providing treatment services.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I'm confused. Is the HOA providing lawn care services to private lots? It can happen, but it's not the norm - usually lawn care is provided in condo communities where the lawns are common elements. It many/most HOAs with single family homes, individual owners are responsible for their own lawn care.

If I were in your shoes, I'd take a hard look at my governing documents and pay close attention to the articles that define common elements, homeowner responsibilities, and HOA responsibilities. They may not be what you think they are. Look for something that requires homeowners to maintain their property and see what it says.

Bottom line is that the HOA can't force anyone to do anything unless the governing documents give the HOA that authority. Language on maintaining property is often vague and not totally helpful, unfortunately.

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 08/17/2022 5:21 AM
I'm confused. Is the HOA providing lawn care services to private lots? It can happen, but it's not the norm - usually lawn care is provided in condo communities where the lawns are common elements. It many/most HOAs with single family homes, individual owners are responsible for their own lawn care.

If I were in your shoes, I'd take a hard look at my governing documents and pay close attention to the articles that define common elements, homeowner responsibilities, and HOA responsibilities. They may not be what you think they are. Look for something that requires homeowners to maintain their property and see what it says.

Bottom line is that the HOA can't force anyone to do anything unless the governing documents give the HOA that authority. Language on maintaining property is often vague and not totally helpful, unfortunately.

HOA provides lawn service to all residents. There is nothing in the CC&Rs thst covers lawn care. Nothing.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 5:23 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 08/17/2022 5:21 AM
I'm confused. Is the HOA providing lawn care services to private lots? It can happen, but it's not the norm - usually lawn care is provided in condo communities where the lawns are common elements. It many/most HOAs with single family homes, individual owners are responsible for their own lawn care.

If I were in your shoes, I'd take a hard look at my governing documents and pay close attention to the articles that define common elements, homeowner responsibilities, and HOA responsibilities. They may not be what you think they are. Look for something that requires homeowners to maintain their property and see what it says.

Bottom line is that the HOA can't force anyone to do anything unless the governing documents give the HOA that authority. Language on maintaining property is often vague and not totally helpful, unfortunately.

HOA provides lawn service to all residents. There is nothing in the CC&Rs thst covers lawn care. Nothing.

That's .... odd. Is the developer still in the picture, or have the homeowners assumed control of the association? Your assessments aren't high enough to afford lawn care on 100+ private lots since you should also be setting aside some portion for future replacement of major components such as amenities, streets (if private), and the like. And that doesn't include the routine operating expenses you'll have, which include bookkeeping, accounting, tax prep, utilities (if your streets have lights), and other things of that nature.

Maybe talk to some like-minded neighbors and see if you can attend board meetings to see what the board thinks they're doing?

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 08/17/2022 6:00 AM

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 5:23 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 08/17/2022 5:21 AM
I'm confused. Is the HOA providing lawn care services to private lots? It can happen, but it's not the norm - usually lawn care is provided in condo communities where the lawns are common elements. It many/most HOAs with single family homes, individual owners are responsible for their own lawn care.

If I were in your shoes, I'd take a hard look at my governing documents and pay close attention to the articles that define common elements, homeowner responsibilities, and HOA responsibilities. They may not be what you think they are. Look for something that requires homeowners to maintain their property and see what it says.

Bottom line is that the HOA can't force anyone to do anything unless the governing documents give the HOA that authority. Language on maintaining property is often vague and not totally helpful, unfortunately.

HOA provides lawn service to all residents. There is nothing in the CC&Rs thst covers lawn care. Nothing.

That's .... odd. Is the developer still in the picture, or have the homeowners assumed control of the association? Your assessments aren't high enough to afford lawn care on 100+ private lots since you should also be setting aside some portion for future replacement of major components such as amenities, streets (if private), and the like. And that doesn't include the routine operating expenses you'll have, which include bookkeeping, accounting, tax prep, utilities (if your streets have lights), and other things of that nature.

Maybe talk to some like-minded neighbors and see if you can attend board meetings to see what the board thinks they're doing?

You are right on target. I brought up the cost of care not jiving with the hoa fees in my head, but they insist that it can be afforded. Then said if it can’t be afforded, they’ll just raise the hoa fees. This was during a landscape committee meeting. I immediately told the man that he’d have the community in his front yard with torches and pitchforks if they raised fees. $100 is already high for around here.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 6:09 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 08/17/2022 6:00 AM

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 5:23 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 08/17/2022 5:21 AM
I'm confused. Is the HOA providing lawn care services to private lots? It can happen, but it's not the norm - usually lawn care is provided in condo communities where the lawns are common elements. It many/most HOAs with single family homes, individual owners are responsible for their own lawn care.

If I were in your shoes, I'd take a hard look at my governing documents and pay close attention to the articles that define common elements, homeowner responsibilities, and HOA responsibilities. They may not be what you think they are. Look for something that requires homeowners to maintain their property and see what it says.

Bottom line is that the HOA can't force anyone to do anything unless the governing documents give the HOA that authority. Language on maintaining property is often vague and not totally helpful, unfortunately.

HOA provides lawn service to all residents. There is nothing in the CC&Rs thst covers lawn care. Nothing.

That's .... odd. Is the developer still in the picture, or have the homeowners assumed control of the association? Your assessments aren't high enough to afford lawn care on 100+ private lots since you should also be setting aside some portion for future replacement of major components such as amenities, streets (if private), and the like. And that doesn't include the routine operating expenses you'll have, which include bookkeeping, accounting, tax prep, utilities (if your streets have lights), and other things of that nature.

Maybe talk to some like-minded neighbors and see if you can attend board meetings to see what the board thinks they're doing?

You are right on target. I brought up the cost of care not jiving with the hoa fees in my head, but they insist that it can be afforded. Then said if it can’t be afforded, they’ll just raise the hoa fees. This was during a landscape committee meeting. I immediately told the man that he’d have the community in his front yard with torches and pitchforks if they raised fees. $100 is already high for around here.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that HOAs also need to carry insurance, which is often a *major* expense. You need coverage for damage to any common elements, liability coverage if someone is injured, workers comp or equivalent if the HOA employs people or uses volunteers, fidelity (employee dishonesty) coverage to protect your financial assets, directors & officers insurance (may also cover committee members, protects these persons' personal assets if they are sued - do NOT do without this and do not volunteer if your HOA isn't carrying it) and other insurance if warranted (eg. fire, flood and earthquake coverage).

Your assessment may be high for the area, but that's not a fair comparison. No two communities are the same, even if they appear to be identical from the outside. Assessments are set to cover your expenses, not the other way around. The latter is a common mistake - boards set assessments at an arbitrary level because homeowners gripe and then try to limit expenses to match the available funds. This does not work and is a recipe for financial (or other) disaster. You can get away with it for a while when your community is young. But what you're doing is burning through your physical assets at an accelerated rate since they're not being maintained properly. This ALWAYS catches up with a community. (See Surfside condo collapse.)

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I just noticed that I didn't address your question about the CC&Rs.

These things are legal documents and must comply with your state's laws governing community associations of various sorts. Some states have different laws for condos and single family home communities, other states lump them together.

Amending your CC&Rs is a big deal. It will involve a lawyer to write the amended language, and the change must be approved by a majority of homeowners (often a super-majority of 67% or 75%). So you generally need a broad consensus that the change is desirable. A simple, straightforward amendment goes for around $1000 in my area - a more extensive re-write will cost more depending on how much lawyer time is involved. Poorly written or confusing CC&Rs can set your community up for ongoing conflict, so it's a good idea to put the time in to do things right.

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

I expect this HOA is legally still under Declarant control, consistent with what the CC&Rs and Bylaws say on the subject. This means the chances are high that the only entity that can amend the CC&Rs at this time is the Declarant.

The courts have said any amendment by the Declarant cannot be so radical that it changes the general scheme of things. Why? Because those owners who bought into the HOA before the amendment relied on the CC&Rs as written when they made their purchase. "A deal's a deal."

I understand that Declarants also have a wide variety of actions they can lawfully take to help sell homes.

I believe the solution to Jason's concerns likely lies in the following:

Quote:

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/16/2022 2:20 PM

The only thing written for a basic CC&R is that the homeowner is to fill out a form and draw plans for any type of landscape design changes. I and a few others are on the committee to apparently just hand out forms to anywho asks for one. There are no written rules on lawn care or weed control. Nothing!

From experience, and as I believe all the veterans here will attest, chances are high that this Florida HOA's Board (possibly via recommendations of the landscaping committee) has the legal right to prepare reasonable rules for the approval of landscaping. Florida Statute Chapter 720 speaks in part to the publication of these rules. The Board makes the rules. The courts say the architectural (landscaping et cetera) guidelines need to be pretty clear, reasonable, and well-noticed (publicized) to owners.

Perusing FS 720 a bit on the subject of rules is worthwhile. See http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0720/0720.html . Just do a keyword search for "rules" and look for anything pertinent.

Granted Jason might not be able to get the rules he wants until after the Declarant turns over control of the board to owners. Jason should read the Bylaws and CCRs to see when this will occur.

Else I am skeptical that the governing documents say that one runs for election to win a seat on the landscape committee. If there is such a provision, it would be in the Bylaws.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Glad to know I needed to calm down over something was not upset about.

Our HOA responsibility was just for Lawncare. We had a company spray a few times a year and lawnmowing during May to October. You got your lawn cut whether you liked it or not. We left backyards alone if you locked your gate.

So Lawncare was only written up if it was for other issues besides mowing. We may still do weeds depending if in flowerbeds. Otherwise if developer still owns the HOA it is their discretion.

Former HOA President

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Do the CC&Rs have any language at all about maintenance of homes/property? Our declaration has some vague language, but it does specifically say that the owner has the duty to maintain their property. That's good enough for us to use that rule to enforce maintaining the landscaping. It doesn't specifically mention watering the grass or trimming the bushes. However, in the winter (our dry season) we do send out friendly reminders and/or violations if people don't irrigate and let their grass die. Or if they don't trim their bushes/trees.

BTW, it is very common in our area in the higher-end HOA communities that landscaping services are included in the HOA fees. That almost always includes mowing, edging, fertilization and pest control and ornamental trimming. It makes the neighborhood look more uniform, which is important to people in those higher-end neighborhoods.

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

I have found this today

Owners shall be financially responsible for the repair and replacement of any vegetation/landscaping/flora on their own Lot. Owners may replace the item on their own, or contact the Board in order to have the company that performs lawn maintenance for the Association, if any, perform such task. In otherwords, should any vegetation/landscaping/flor on a Lot need replacement because of disease or decay, the the Lot Owner shall pay to have it replaced, whether or not the replacement be new sod for the lawn, a new tree, or a new shrub. The replacement item shall be of the same of similar quality of the item being replaced, and must meet the approval of the ARB.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 11:08 AM
I have found this today

Owners shall be financially responsible for the repair and replacement of any vegetation/landscaping/flora on their own Lot. Owners may replace the item on their own, or contact the Board in order to have the company that performs lawn maintenance for the Association, if any, perform such task. In otherwords, should any vegetation/landscaping/flor on a Lot need replacement because of disease or decay, the the Lot Owner shall pay to have it replaced, whether or not the replacement be new sod for the lawn, a new tree, or a new shrub. The replacement item shall be of the same of similar quality of the item being replaced, and must meet the approval of the ARB.

Real simple. You cannot repair/replace any landscaping without permission of the ARB and you will pay for such.

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 08/17/2022 11:29 AM

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 11:08 AM
I have found this today

Owners shall be financially responsible for the repair and replacement of any vegetation/landscaping/flora on their own Lot. Owners may replace the item on their own, or contact the Board in order to have the company that performs lawn maintenance for the Association, if any, perform such task. In otherwords, should any vegetation/landscaping/flor on a Lot need replacement because of disease or decay, the the Lot Owner shall pay to have it replaced, whether or not the replacement be new sod for the lawn, a new tree, or a new shrub. The replacement item shall be of the same of similar quality of the item being replaced, and must meet the approval of the ARB.

Real simple. You cannot repair/replace any landscaping without permission of the ARB and you will pay for such.

Then there is definitely not anything to cover residents maintaining their lawn to community standards. That's disappointing

AugustinD
Posts: 1,027

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 11:46 AM
Then there is definitely not anything to cover residents maintaining their lawn to community standards.

How do you figure? You indicate the following is from your CCRs:

Quote:

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 11:08 AM
The replacement item shall be of the same of similar quality of the item being replaced, and must meet the approval of the ARB.

If the above is from your CC&Rs, then any owner or the HOA may enforce this via the courts, a properly noticed HOA schedule of fines, and so on.

Keep reading at this forum (and not just this thread). You will get the hang of reading your CC&Rs and what their legal meaning is.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Jason

While our docs do no call out specific landscaping things, like type of grass, type of bushes, etc., they do refer to "a common look" plus the ARB must approve any changes. This maintains our "common look"

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 08/17/2022 1:02 PM

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 11:46 AM
Then there is definitely not anything to cover residents maintaining their lawn to community standards.

How do you figure? You indicate the following is from your CCRs:

Quote:

Posted By JasonK4 on 08/17/2022 11:08 AM
The replacement item shall be of the same of similar quality of the item being replaced, and must meet the approval of the ARB.

If the above is from your CC&Rs, then any owner or the HOA may enforce this via the courts, a properly noticed HOA schedule of fines, and so on.

Keep reading at this forum (and not just this thread). You will get the hang of reading your CC&Rs and what their legal meaning is.

I’ll be lurking here to learn. Thanks

JasonK4 (South Carolina)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Thanks everyone who replied. I’m doing my best to learn. My hope is to always help support and possibly lead the HOA here. It’s a beautiful neighborhood with some great people. I just want what’s best for this area. The builder still has majority stake in this for another year or so. They are listening to us though which is good. The HOA management company replied today the the board to looking into doing something to include lawn care and expectations. Especially since they’ve noticed several yards are being let go and are looking bad.