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JohnS122
Posts: 15
Posted:
Curious what you think of this.

My HOA has a history of shutting down lemonade stands and now most recently as shut down a high school kid's swim camp at one person's house. There were a few high school lifeguard kids with a house with a pool that had setup and scheduled little kid swimcamp/babysitting over the summer. After the first few weeks, the HOA caught wind of it and sent a threatening notice, forcing them to stop and cancel.

What do you think of this? Just looking at google maps, I can see a dozen homes with businesses registered to their home addresses (like consulting or interior design), not to mention the numerous professional jobs where people are working and conducting business from a home office.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS122 on 08/09/2022 7:05 PM
Curious what you think of this.

My HOA has a history of shutting down lemonade stands and now most recently as shut down a high school kid's swim camp at one person's house. There were a few high school lifeguard kids with a house with a pool that had setup and scheduled little kid swimcamp/babysitting over the summer. After the first few weeks, the HOA caught wind of it and sent a threatening notice, forcing them to stop and cancel.

What do you think of this? Just looking at google maps, I can see a dozen homes with businesses registered to their home addresses (like consulting or interior design), not to mention the numerous professional jobs where people are working and conducting business from a home office.

Read your bylaws. Usually they forbid businesses where people come to your home - creating traffic and taking up parking.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 08/09/2022 7:11 PM
Posted By JohnS122 on 08/09/2022 7:05 PM
Curious what you think of this.

My HOA has a history of shutting down lemonade stands and now most recently as shut down a high school kid's swim camp at one person's house. There were a few high school lifeguard kids with a house with a pool that had setup and scheduled little kid swimcamp/babysitting over the summer. After the first few weeks, the HOA caught wind of it and sent a threatening notice, forcing them to stop and cancel.

What do you think of this? Just looking at google maps, I can see a dozen homes with businesses registered to their home addresses (like consulting or interior design), not to mention the numerous professional jobs where people are working and conducting business from a home office.


Read your bylaws. Usually they forbid businesses where people come to your home - creating traffic and taking up parking.

I should have said governing documents, not bylaws. The use restrictions section.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With David, our condo CC&Rs state something like that. It's the cars, traffic, etc. that's the issue.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
John,

You don't identify what State you are in which prevents others from checking applicable statutes.
Statutes in some States prevent HOAs/COAs from shutting down some out of house businesses.

Having a business that increases traffic or noise in the development is different then having a business mailing address to your house.

See:

Is Running An HOA Home Business Allowed? from a management company

Running a Home Operated Business in your HOA from a VA management company (this one refers to Virginia statutes)

Commercial Use & Home Businesses from a CA legal site

Operating a Business Out of an HOA Unit: When It Turns Into a Problem from HOA Leader
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Most community associations have restrictions against nuisance activities, and this would almost certainly qualify.

In addition, there will be increased traffic and liability resulting from bringing additional people into the community. And teenagers aren't the most responsible drivers out there. One of those kids has an accident or hits someone on HOA property? Guess who gets sued.

Many of us view things such as lemonade stands through 1950's rose-colored glasses, forgetting that back in the 50's HOAs weren't a thing. You buy property that puts you into a financial and legal partnership with your neighbors, you get limitations on what you can and can't do. Anything that provides a benefit is going to provide a downside as well. Life, eh?
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Shutting down a kids lemonade stand is petty and repulsive. Shutting down a home business where it becomes a neighborhood nuisance where parking is monopolized and
people can't enjoy the peace and tranquility of their domicile, that is where the problem starts.
JohnS122
Posts: 15
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 08/09/2022 7:11 PM

Read your bylaws. Usually they forbid businesses where people come to your home - creating traffic and taking up parking.

Only thing in our CCR's is about 'no businesses allowed." Nothing mentioned whatsoever about traffic or parking.
JohnS122
Posts: 15
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 08/10/2022 6:23 AM
Most community associations have restrictions against nuisance activities, and this would almost certainly qualify.

In addition, there will be increased traffic and liability resulting from bringing additional people into the community. And teenagers aren't the most responsible drivers out there. One of those kids has an accident or hits someone on HOA property? Guess who gets sued.

Many of us view things such as lemonade stands through 1950's rose-colored glasses, forgetting that back in the 50's HOAs weren't a thing. You buy property that puts you into a financial and legal partnership with your neighbors, you get limitations on what you can and can't do. Anything that provides a benefit is going to provide a downside as well. Life, eh?

I understand what you mean, but driving and parking a car on a public roadway does not meet the definition of nuisance (both city code and CCR's definitions). I agree, there's limitations, but in the absence of those limitations, it seems this is out of jurisdiction for the HOA to enforce, unless they want to enforce every other home office?
JohnS122
Posts: 15
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/10/2022 2:55 AM
John,

You don't identify what State you are in which prevents others from checking applicable statutes.
Statutes in some States prevent HOAs/COAs from shutting down some out of house businesses.

Having a business that increases traffic or noise in the development is different then having a business mailing address to your house.

See:

Is Running An HOA Home Business Allowed? from a management company

Running a Home Operated Business in your HOA from a VA management company (this one refers to Virginia statutes)

Commercial Use & Home Businesses from a CA legal site

Operating a Business Out of an HOA Unit: When It Turns Into a Problem from HOA Leader

This link is interesting. It seems to be saying that if the kids got a city permit, then it is expressly allowed by the city and can't be restricted by HOA?
https://www.armi-hoa.com/blog/running-a-home-operated-business-in-your-hoa
"So the short answer to our question is...in most cases Home Occupations/Businesses are in fact allowed if the locality allows them to exists and if the required permits are received. As a general rule, most associations do not try to get the way of local zoning code"
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
John,

Mind you, that is based on Virginia Statutes.
It could be different for other States.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS122 on 08/10/2022 3:52 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 08/09/2022 7:11 PM

Read your bylaws. Usually they forbid businesses where people come to your home - creating traffic and taking up parking.


Only thing in our CCR's is about 'no businesses allowed." Nothing mentioned whatsoever about traffic or parking.

You really should post all the relevant verbiage if you want to understand and get meaningful feedback.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Please cite the exact words, JohnS, in their entirety.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnS122 on 08/10/2022 3:54 PM
... snip ...

I understand what you mean, but driving and parking a car on a public roadway does not meet the definition of nuisance (both city code and CCR's definitions). I agree, there's limitations, but in the absence of those limitations, it seems this is out of jurisdiction for the HOA to enforce, unless they want to enforce every other home office?

Our lawyers talked about this issue in one of their training sessions.

They said that most courts view something like a home office as different from a business that brings clients into the community. Nobody knows if you spend your day sitting in front of a computer, but they will know if there is a stream of traffic coming to your home. In addition, the HOA will incur additional costs in the second situation: wear and tear on the streets, noise complaints, property damage, an increase in crime since you're giving strangers a chance to case the joint, and an increase in the chances of someone getting hurt on HOA property and suing.

(The people who are running this little swim camp didn't ask me, but they better talk to their insurance agent and make sure they're insured up the wazoo. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.)

In other words, a swim camp is a "nuisance" but somebody sitting at home working on their computer is not. That's the difference.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkR21 on 08/13/2022 3:30 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 08/10/2022 6:23 AM
Most community associations have restrictions against nuisance activities, and this would almost certainly qualify.

In addition, there will be increased traffic and liability resulting from bringing additional people into the community. And teenagers aren't the most responsible drivers out there. One of those kids has an accident or hits someone on HOA property? Guess who gets sued.

Many of us view things such as lemonade stands through 1950's rose-colored glasses, forgetting that back in the 50's HOAs weren't a thing. You buy property that puts you into a financial and legal partnership with your neighbors, you get limitations on what you can and can't do. Anything that provides a benefit is going to provide a downside as well. Life, eh?


There’s nothing rosy about the racist homophobic 1950s era
I was gonna bet you’d be the grump I thought lemonade stand should be banned
You’re unbelievable

You're amusingly off base on that one, and should read what I actually said.

I grew up in a community that was made up of undesirables who couldn't live in the upscale areas of my city in the not-so-wonderful pre-Fair Housing days. Our neighborhood produced broad minded, "free range" children who grew up unencumbered by cell phones, the internet, and the level of parental surveillance that's pretty common nowadays. Not that there weren't dangers. Some guy tried to lure me to come with him (I ran faster and was on my own turf) - and the kid across the street set up a lemonade stand (but had urinated in the lemonade and gave it to some kids down the street).

I firmly disagree that racist, homophobic times are a thing of the past. It's just that the racist homophobes have gotten some pushback, both legally and socially, and have to dress up their bigotry in philosophical or political baffle-gab. That this pushback coincided with the widespread rise of community associations is coincidental. The widespread increase in litigation is probably more to the point.

And here is no way on earth that I would drink something that's sold at a random lemonade stand. Others are free to take their chances, of course.

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