Fence line in common area needs repair, and privacy?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Got a general question about this kind of topic. I'll try to describe the physical layout.

- There's a strip of common area in my HOA that runs behind about 20 homes. within this strip, utility companies have an easement to manage access to their systems.
- within this total section, there is row of chainlink fencing, along the road, and then a row of chainlink fencing separating the utility access road from the regular HOA common area, that is behind the row of houses.

Historically, the utility access section has always had a gate and sign saying "NO TRESPASSING" but has never been locked and enforced, so people use it as part of a walking path. This means that random people are walking along a path right behind the row of HOA homes, with a chainlink fence between them.

The HOA has neglected and failed to maintain the fencing. Posts are falling over, there's giant holes torn in the fencing, tree branches fallen onto the fence, etc. Dogs come running through the fence right up to backyards as well as the constant state of 'living in a fishbowl' where all the walkers can look into homes and backyards.

The issues to discuss is:
- as this is common area, what is the expectation to fix and maintain the fence? at a minimum, the fence should be in a good state of repair. Who is responsible? If the HOA has been hemming and hawing for several years about it, can a Homeowner fix it themselves? If they do fix it, can homeowners bill the HOA for the cost?

- What is the requirement or liability for the HOA to protect this section of the common area? They are not locking the gate and not enforcing the NO TRESPASSING. Can a homeowner petition to force adherence to this?

- Rather than enforcing the NO TRESPASSING, can a homeowner just put up 'privacy screening' along the chainlink fence? Then, as an added bonus, once the privacy screen is up, the home's value has increased (in theory). If the HOA takes down the privacy screen, that would actively be devaluing a property. Thoughts on this topic?

Ultimately, who/what/how is responsible to force repair and maintenance of common area, as well as common-sense privacy screening for 20 homes along the fence line?

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

Adam, our Association has two metal fences, but we are fortunate in that it is listed in our governing documents that these are Association expenses to maintain. Your governing documents should have some wording that would indicate who is responsible for this fencing. You can visit with the Board at a Board meeting and inquire or call the President and ask. Too bad it has gotten as bad as you discribe.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

Adam, our Association has two metal fences, but we are fortunate in that it is listed in our governing documents that these are Association expenses to maintain. Your governing documents should have some wording that would indicate who is responsible for this fencing. You can visit with the Board at a Board meeting and inquire or call the President and ask. Too bad it has gotten as bad as you describe.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

If the chain link fence is the responsibility of the HOA, then it should be kept in good repair.

Locking a gate is an option, not a requirement (residents might like a gate).

Privacy screening in a chain link fence that didn't have any before would not be a requirement in my opinion.

Perhaps you can request to install a privacy fence on your property line.

MarkR21 (North Carolina)
Posts: 710

Posted:

Look into free grant to get privacy trees bushes planted. Where I live it’s fairly easy to get

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

the topics are not whether the HOA is responsible for fixing the fences. We all know they are. However, they have refused/failed/neglected to keep the fences in good repair. Has anyone seen a situation where a homeowner fixed something and then sent the bill to the HOA? If this was the other way around, the HOA certainly could fix a homeowners fence and send them the bill.

Next, the liability and privacy question. The HOA is responsible for enforcing the no trespassing on this property, but refuses. This isn't a big deal, as a simple and cheap solution is to just put up privacy screening along the fence. However, the HOA is refusing to do privacy screening as well.

What happens if the homeowners all just put up screening.....now we have an interesting conundrum....The value of those homes have now increased, as there is increased privacy. If the HOA starts ripping out the privacy screening, that is tangibly de-valuing a property. We all know the fundamental purpose of an HOA is to maintain and increase property values.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

When you say the "HOA pays for it"... You do understand a HOA is ONLY funded by it's members for it's owners. So your basically asking every single owner to contribute to the repairs of the fence via their dues. So your putting at risk higher dues or a special assessment. The money doesn't come from some magical place with an endless resource of funds. It comes out everone's pockets including your own.

Also fences are a bit tricky in HOA's. They fall into different categories. 1. The HOA built the fence. If that is the case, then the HOA pays for it's maintenance and upkeep. 2. The HOA APPROVES the fence for an owner to build per their requirements. The HOA does NOT own nor maintain the fence. The owner is responsible but the HOA can force the owner to maintain/remove. 3. The HOA may be on the other side of a fence owned by another entity. Such as a utility or neighboring neighbors. Not much the HOA can do but contact the owner with the fencing issue.

I wonder if this fence is put up by the utility company? IF so, the HOA has to contact the utility company to let them know the condition. The HOA may approve owners to put up their own screening options. They just can't touch the fence. It would be up to the HOA what they feel qualifies as a proper screen...

Former HOA President

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/19/2022 3:19 PM
When you say the "HOA pays for it"... You do understand a HOA is ONLY funded by it's members for it's owners. So your basically asking every single owner to contribute to the repairs of the fence via their dues. So your putting at risk higher dues or a special assessment. The money doesn't come from some magical place with an endless resource of funds. It comes out everone's pockets including your own.

That's pretty much one of the main purposes of an HOA....to cost-share the expenses of common area. It's the contract everyone signed when they joined this club. I'm not sure what you're getting at? Are you also saying that that HOA's should not collect $$ from Members to pay for mowing the common grass as well? HOA is obligated and required to maintain its common area just as homeowners are obligated and required to maintain their property.

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/19/2022 3:19 PM
Also fences are a bit tricky in HOA's. They fall into different categories. 1. The HOA built the fence. If that is the case, then the HOA pays for it's maintenance and upkeep. 2. The HOA APPROVES the fence for an owner to build per their requirements. The HOA does NOT own nor maintain the fence. The owner is responsible but the HOA can force the owner to maintain/remove. 3. The HOA may be on the other side of a fence owned by another entity. Such as a utility or neighboring neighbors. Not much the HOA can do but contact the owner with the fencing issue.

As written in the OP, this is a fence fully inside HOA common area. It was built and is required to be maintained by the HOA. The HOA installed the fence, to demark the "NO TRESPASSING" section of the utilities easement.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I am dumbfounded that you don't know who is obligated to maintain the fence. The HOA is. Now, is the maintenance part of the annual budget or is it in the reserve study?

I have a situation where a new HOA we picked up has submeters for their individual units, 107 of them. A third party company remotely reads the meters and bills the residents directly. Unfortunately, the only bill the residents one third of the cost to deliver water. Now on top of that, they are coming up on ten years of existence, and each of those meters have to be pulled, tested and re-certified. Cost is $107,000 every ten years. There is no budget. It isn't on the annual budget, nor was it every placed in the reserved. The Board voted to have a law firm eliminate the language of water sub meters and have the membership vote on the new CCRs. No more third party billing, no more re-certification. Problem solved.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 07/19/2022 3:17 PM
the topics are not whether the HOA is responsible for fixing the fences. We all know they are. However, they have refused/failed/neglected to keep the fences in good repair. Has anyone seen a situation where a homeowner fixed something and then sent the bill to the HOA? If this was the other way around, the HOA certainly could fix a homeowners fence and send them the bill.

Have you asked your board why they haven't repaired this section?

Have you volunteered to get bids and do the leg work to get this done?

Have you simply volunteered to pay for the repairs if you can get permission from the board to have them done?

I doubt the HOA would fix a homeowners fence without a court order as I doubt they would find a reputable contractor to enter someones property without permission.
In fact, we asked our attorney this and they said absolutely do not do it without a court order or one could be facing trespassing charges.

MarkR21 (North Carolina)
Posts: 710

Posted:

Owners can plant privacy screening on their side, not the common area.
Why don’t you have your state listed instead it’s just USA?
Not all hoas can fix something and hill owners
Let me guess you own a home effected?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 07/19/2022 4:32 PM

Have you asked your board why they haven't repaired this section?

Have you volunteered to get bids and do the leg work to get this done?

Have you simply volunteered to pay for the repairs if you can get permission from the board to have them done?

yes to all of these. The Board refuses to acknowledge it, let along act. Its been more than a year. We are now at the point of HOA failing to act, so homeowners are wanting to fix it themselves.

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 07/19/2022 4:32 PM

I doubt the HOA would fix a homeowners fence without a court order as I doubt they would find a reputable contractor to enter someones property without permission.
In fact, we asked our attorney this and they said absolutely do not do it without a court order or one could be facing trespassing charges.

Its generally called a limited or direct assessment and is pretty normal method to force action. If a Homeowner refuses to address a valid citations, most HOA's are allowed to correct the issue and bill the Homeowner for it.

for example, here's the language in mine.

"Limited Assessment" shall mean a charge against a particular Owner
and such Owner's Building Lot, directly attributable to the Owner, equal to the cost
incurred by the Association for corrective action performed pursuant to the provisions of this
Master Declaration or any Supplemental Declaration, including interest thereon as
provided in this Master Declaration or a Supplemental Declaration.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 07/19/2022 4:17 PM
I am dumbfounded that you don't know who is obligated to maintain the fence. The HOA is. Now, is the maintenance part of the annual budget or is it in the reserve study?

I have a situation where a new HOA we picked up has submeters for their individual units, 107 of them. A third party company remotely reads the meters and bills the residents directly. Unfortunately, the only bill the residents one third of the cost to deliver water. Now on top of that, they are coming up on ten years of existence, and each of those meters have to be pulled, tested and re-certified. Cost is $107,000 every ten years. There is no budget. It isn't on the annual budget, nor was it every placed in the reserved. The Board voted to have a law firm eliminate the language of water sub meters and have the membership vote on the new CCRs. No more third party billing, no more re-certification. Problem solved.

Not the questions posted. The main question is what happens and what methods do homeowners have when an HOA refuses to maintain common property. If the HOA failed to mow the common grass? if the HOA refused to remove a fallen tree, if the HOA refused to repair a broken fence, etc....what can homeowners do? Has anyone seen any stories of homeowners fixing it themselves and/or recovering the costs?

I'm not sure your story is any way related to the OP situation.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 07/19/2022 5:07 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 07/19/2022 4:17 PM
I am dumbfounded that you don't know who is obligated to maintain the fence. The HOA is. Now, is the maintenance part of the annual budget or is it in the reserve study?

I have a situation where a new HOA we picked up has submeters for their individual units, 107 of them. A third party company remotely reads the meters and bills the residents directly. Unfortunately, the only bill the residents one third of the cost to deliver water. Now on top of that, they are coming up on ten years of existence, and each of those meters have to be pulled, tested and re-certified. Cost is $107,000 every ten years. There is no budget. It isn't on the annual budget, nor was it every placed in the reserved. The Board voted to have a law firm eliminate the language of water sub meters and have the membership vote on the new CCRs. No more third party billing, no more re-certification. Problem solved.

Not the questions posted. The main question is what happens and what methods do homeowners have when an HOA refuses to maintain common property. If the HOA failed to mow the common grass? if the HOA refused to remove a fallen tree, if the HOA refused to repair a broken fence, etc....what can homeowners do? Has anyone seen any stories of homeowners fixing it themselves and/or recovering the costs?

I'm not sure your story is any way related to the OP situation.

What happens and what methods. Homeowners get off their ass and get people to get it done. What did you think was going to happen? Cornac and Magnificent was going to suddenly pop out and give suggestions? You do realize the HOA is the homeowners, no one else, right?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oh, that's just Max, Adam. for others, Adam previously posted being in Idaho.

No, Adam, I haven' heard of owners fixing something themselves and getting the HOA to pay. What has happened my HOA, similar to Tim's approach is that a few owners have gotten together and found prices on, say, reslinging poolside furniture. They timely submitted all the relevant data to the board as an agenda item, and in these couple of cases, because of good info gathering, the board has approved the expenditure and directed our GM to proceed.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 07/19/2022 5:07 PM

Not the questions posted. The main question is what happens and what methods do homeowners have when an HOA refuses to maintain common property. If the HOA failed to mow the common grass? if the HOA refused to remove a fallen tree, if the HOA refused to repair a broken fence, etc....what can homeowners do? Has anyone seen any stories of homeowners fixing it themselves and/or recovering the costs?

The cheapest way for homeowners to get the association to improve maintenance standards is to vote in directors who support that at the next election. That could be challenging because the opposing candidates will probably claim that they are "out to raise your dues". You could also try suing the association, but that would be expensive with a very uncertain outcome.

Do the governing docs require the fence to be there? If not, the board could just as easily remove it as repair it. Unless there is something in the governing docs requiring the HOA to provide some level of privacy, there is no obligation for the association to do so.

Any homeowner could send a bill to the association, but I would be surprised to see it paid. I could send a bill to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the check. Governing docs often provide that the association can do work on homeowner's property and bill them for it, I don't recall hearing of any that allowed for the converse of that.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 07/19/2022 5:52 PM

What happens and what methods. Homeowners get off their ass and get people to get it done. What did you think was going to happen? Cornac and Magnificent was going to suddenly pop out and give suggestions? You do realize the HOA is the homeowners, no one else, right?

I literally have no idea what you're trying to say. Are you saying that homeowners need to get off their ass and mow the common property grass? or are you saying that no one on this HOA Discussion forum is going to pop out and discuss HOA issues?

You do realize that that Board of Directors and Officers are charged with managing the affairs of the HOA, no one else, right?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/19/2022 5:55 PM
Oh, that's just Max, Adam. for others, Adam previously posted being in Idaho.

No, Adam, I haven' heard of owners fixing something themselves and getting the HOA to pay. What has happened my HOA, similar to Tim's approach is that a few owners have gotten together and found prices on, say, reslinging poolside furniture. They timely submitted all the relevant data to the board as an agenda item, and in these couple of cases, because of good info gathering, the board has approved the expenditure and directed our GM to proceed.

Agreed, that would be ideal, but what if dealing with an obtuse HOA leadership team that refuses to address their required duty to certain common areas?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 07/19/2022 6:16 PM

Posted By AdamL1 on 07/19/2022 5:07 PM

Not the questions posted. The main question is what happens and what methods do homeowners have when an HOA refuses to maintain common property. If the HOA failed to mow the common grass? if the HOA refused to remove a fallen tree, if the HOA refused to repair a broken fence, etc....what can homeowners do? Has anyone seen any stories of homeowners fixing it themselves and/or recovering the costs?

The cheapest way for homeowners to get the association to improve maintenance standards is to vote in directors who support that at the next election. That could be challenging because the opposing candidates will probably claim that they are "out to raise your dues". You could also try suing the association, but that would be expensive with a very uncertain outcome.

Do the governing docs require the fence to be there? If not, the board could just as easily remove it as repair it. Unless there is something in the governing docs requiring the HOA to provide some level of privacy, there is no obligation for the association to do so.

Any homeowner could send a bill to the association, but I would be surprised to see it paid. I could send a bill to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the check. Governing docs often provide that the association can do work on homeowner's property and bill them for it, I don't recall hearing of any that allowed for the converse of that.

Agreed, the HOA leadership has a history of neglecting this part of the common area, claiming that it only benefits a small quantity of homes, therefore they should not spend budget $$ on maintaining this area...despite the CCR's stating explicitly that they have SHALL maintain the area.

Nothing in CCR's specifically about the fence, but its part of the easement agreement, for the utility company to demark their 'area.'

There is nothing in the CCR's about 'privacy' but there is clauses about enforcing the easement's NO TRESPASSING which they are failing to do. One would think a simple and easy and cheap solution would be to just install privacy screening along the fence line, but again, the HOA leadership is being obtuse....

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

No the HOA is not spending money on what you say is important to you and a few other owners. It still does not sound like the HOA owns that fence. You have not posted any proof it's a HOA installed or maintained fence. It sounds like to me the Utility department may have put it there. IF that is the case, they contact the utility company about it.

There was a water tower not far from where lived. They have a fence around it. It's in the middle of a neighborhood. It is also posted no trespassing. You have to read up on your local laws about what that may or may not mean. No trespassing is not equal or always enforceable across the board. Plus would your HOA be in charge of enforcing the no trespassing laws? Especially for those using it as a path?

The first thing I would do is to find out who actually OWNS the fence. Once that is established then a solution may be created to make more people happy. It may be that you will be able to build a fence or put up natural screening. It does NOT mean the HOA's going to pay for that. Just approve it.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

The small rational part of Max's posts is: Is the fence in the reserve study. But I do agree it's the board's job to get it fixed based on what you wrote.

Is fence the responsibility of your master assn. or your sub-assn.? (Am I remembering this right?)

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/20/2022 12:49 PM
The small rational part of Max's posts is: Is the fence in the reserve study. But I do agree it's the board's job to get it fixed based on what you wrote.

Is fence the responsibility of your master assn. or your sub-assn.? (Am I remembering this right?)

If you want to continually attack me, two can play this game. Be careful for what you wish for!

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Adam

You have several paths to go down:

1. Get people elected to the BOD that will do as you like.

2. Band your neighbors together to hire a lawyer and send a demand letter to the BOD.

3. Ignore it.

4. Move.