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written standard for electronic locks

Started by SteveH35 • 33 replies • 747 views

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SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
If your CIC has a written standard for electronic lock hardware, I'd love to see it if you're willing to share. The gist is provide a standard for owners who want to move away from the standard deadbolt and pass-through handle. If you don't want to share directly on the forum, you're welcome to email, just ask!
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
I think it would be good for people to know if you are a property manager, own a property management company, are on the board, or just a homeowner.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 12:59 PM
I think it would be good for people to know if you are a property manager, own a property management company, are on the board, or just a homeowner.

Michael, I've already told you that I do everything in a separate thread. This forum is about sharing resources and ideas. If you have a written standard to share, please let me know.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
So you are on the board, own a condo, own a property management company, and are also a property manager??
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:15 PM
So you are on the board, own a condo, own a property management company, and are also a property manager??

What's your point with all of this? It might be easier if you just came out and said what your thinking instead of acting like a fool.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Here's the deal. According to LinkedIn, you are the CEO of a company (SMAARTE Group) that provides consulting support to Board members. In fact, one of the services that you provide is writing policies and procedures.

It seems to me that you are asking for Board members, who are here for the goodness of their heart, to post sample documents that you will in turn sell to a Board.

I'll be that you have a client right now asking you to write a policy on electronic locks, and rather than doing just that, you're asking for help here. But none of us are getting paid.

I consider this a misuse of this forum, but perhaps others will provide you with examples to help you meet your clients needs.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/22/2022 1:19 PM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:15 PM
So you are on the board, own a condo, own a property management company, and are also a property manager??


What's your point with all of this? It might be easier if you just came out and said what your thinking instead of acting like a fool.

Just did.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:23 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/22/2022 1:19 PM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:15 PM
So you are on the board, own a condo, own a property management company, and are also a property manager??


What's your point with all of this? It might be easier if you just came out and said what your thinking instead of acting like a fool.


Just did.

It's about time. I agree that Steve is walking a fine line on his postings that include links to his landing site that then directs people to his for profit site. He argues that links to other companies are posted here but does not acknowledge that the difference is that the owners of these sites are not the ones posting here.

With that said, I do believe he is knowledgeable on HOA's and can provide value to others that come here seeking advice. I also believe that the owners of this site have the absolute right to delete his posts if they see fit. I also believe that have the absolute right to allow them if they see fit. If I was Steve I would consider creating a new modern competing forum on his own site.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:22 PM
Here's the deal. According to LinkedIn, you are the CEO of a company (SMAARTE Group) that provides consulting support to Board members. In fact, one of the services that you provide is writing policies and procedures.

It seems to me that you are asking for Board members, who are here for the goodness of their heart, to post sample documents that you will in turn sell to a Board.

I'll be that you have a client right now asking you to write a policy on electronic locks, and rather than doing just that, you're asking for help here. But none of us are getting paid.

I consider this a misuse of this forum, but perhaps others will provide you with examples to help you meet your clients needs.

Oh Michael, you really are a stinker, aren't you? My CIC, of which I have served on the Board for nearly 4 years and to which I have devoted thousands of hours of volunteer time, could really use a standard. We're going to have some volunteers develop a standard, but getting a running start is the right way to go. Thanks and have a great day.

Regards,
Steve
MarkR21 (North Carolina)
Posts: 710
Posted:
I like the locks that allow user to physically turn the deadbolt. Schlage makes them. The ones that have an electronic motor turn the deadbolt tend to break more often imho
Other than that I think they are much better than keys!
LisaB21 (Texas)
Posts: 97
Posted:
what is a CIC?
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LisaB21 on 06/22/2022 3:54 PM
what is a CIC?

Common Interest Community
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/22/2022 4:38 PM
Posted By LisaB21 on 06/22/2022 3:54 PM
what is a CIC?


Common Interest Community

Yes and CIC has become the generally accepted acronym that encompasses all such entities. CID (common interest development) was tossed around for a while in the 1990s and early aughts.

CIC is used instead of saying "HOA" which could specifically mean a homeowners association which is very different in many respects from a COA (condominium association) and is also different than a PID, etc.

Regards,
Steve
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
CID is the language in CA, where statutes are the same for all kinds os associations. And I've never seen CIC until Steve appeared. Does it only apply to WA? Some posters here write HOA/POA. I've written association or assn.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/22/2022 6:35 PM
CID is the language in CA, where statutes are the same for all kinds os associations. And I've never seen CIC until Steve appeared. Does it only apply to WA? Some posters here write HOA/POA. I've written association or assn.

It’s used in Delaware in our laws. But I don’t hear it used by property managers, residents, etc.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Steve

CIC is not commonly used in Texas, at least in my experience. I've not noticed others from Texas who post use the term either.

In our personal experience, since the Texas Property Code Sections and Chapters which apply to HOAs and condominiums have significant differences, the use of CIC can be misleading as doing so subsequently requires more clarification to qualify the reference to a HOA or condominium association.

If you read the posts from those in Texas who post, they very often clarify at the outset if they are referring to a Texas Property Code Section 209 HOA or a Texas Property Code Chapter 81 or Chapter 82 condominium regime.

When you first posted a message using the term CIC, I had to stop and think about what you were referring to. I much prefer definitively stating the post refers to a HOA or condominium association in the initial sentences of the post.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/22/2022 6:35 PM
CID is the language in CA, where statutes are the same for all kinds os associations. And I've never seen CIC until Steve appeared. Does it only apply to WA? Some posters here write HOA/POA. I've written association or assn.

I had never heard of it before and I certainly wouldn't consider it a standard. Google CIC and see what you get.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveH35 on 06/22/2022 11:46 AM
If your CIC has a written standard for electronic lock hardware, I'd love to see it if you're willing to share. The gist is provide a standard for owners who want to move away from the standard deadbolt and pass-through handle. If you don't want to share directly on the forum, you're welcome to email, just ask!

To reiterate, this thread asks if you have a written standard for lock hardware, for example what would be visible on the exterior surface of entry doors. Thanks to anyone that might have information to share publicly or privately.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/22/2022 1:19 PM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:15 PM
So you are on the board, own a condo, own a property management company, and are also a property manager??


What's your point with all of this? It might be easier if you just came out and said what your thinking instead of acting like a fool.

I agree.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/22/2022 1:37 PM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:23 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/22/2022 1:19 PM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/22/2022 1:15 PM
So you are on the board, own a condo, own a property management company, and are also a property manager??


What's your point with all of this? It might be easier if you just came out and said what your thinking instead of acting like a fool.


Just did.


It's about time. I agree that Steve is walking a fine line on his postings that include links to his landing site that then directs people to his for profit site. He argues that links to other companies are posted here but does not acknowledge that the difference is that the owners of these sites are not the ones posting here.

With that said, I do believe he is knowledgeable on HOA's and can provide value to others that come here seeking advice. I also believe that the owners of this site have the absolute right to delete his posts if they see fit. I also believe that have the absolute right to allow them if they see fit. If I was Steve I would consider creating a new modern competing forum on his own site.

Well said.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Why would standards even be necessary? Who's going to look that closely at a door to see if it's compliant with some sort of standard???? Whoever wants this may want to obsess over something else.

What's the real issue - does someone want something that's hardwired into the unit's electrical system? I understand the issue of you're talking about a high rise condo building, but everyone else should be able to do what works for them. In my community you need approval to rep!ace your door but no one cares which lock you use.....

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 06/23/2022 11:49 AM
Why would standards even be necessary? Who's going to look that closely at a door to see if it's compliant with some sort of standard???? Whoever wants this may want to obsess over something else.

What's the real issue - does someone want something that's hardwired into the unit's electrical system? I understand the issue of you're talking about a high rise condo building, but everyone else should be able to do what works for them. In my community you need approval to rep!ace your door but no one cares which lock you use.....


I agree 100%.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/23/2022 12:37 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 06/23/2022 11:49 AM
Why would standards even be necessary? Who's going to look that closely at a door to see if it's compliant with some sort of standard???? Whoever wants this may want to obsess over something else.

What's the real issue - does someone want something that's hardwired into the unit's electrical system? I understand the issue of you're talking about a high rise condo building, but everyone else should be able to do what works for them. In my community you need approval to rep!ace your door but no one cares which lock you use.....


I agree 100%.

Yep. We're a condominium association. Maintaining a cohesive, uniform aesthetic is important. Doors are LCEs. Maintaining the locks is an owner responsibility, but that does not mean owners get to materially change the appearance of the hardware outside their door. Simple.

Again, if anyone has an example to share, please go ahead and/or email it to [email protected]. Else, there's absolutely no need to respond. This thread is not intended to educate an audience about why this is important. Exterior aesthetics are considered important at many CICs.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
So what your saying is you just want to make sure all the door knobs/locks look alike? This would be defined in your CC&R's, By-laws, or ACC documents. I don't see it as an outside separate "standard". We have examples of paint colors that are approved. Why not simply do the same with pictures of approved door locks? Whether they are electronic or mechanical they still "lock". It's the APPEARANCE and consistency issue.

Are you going to issue fines or make them remove the locks if they don't meet the "standard"? Our HOA if there was something of "standard" it most likely would be something that the HOA paid for if needing replaced. Example is that we all had exterior light post in the front yards. They all had to have a round 14 inch ball around it. The owner replaced the bulbs. The HOA would replace the fixtures due to damage. If the owner wanted to do it, then they had to buy the same round ball from our vendor. Otherwise, we would tell them to remove it.
Former HOA President
MarkR21 (North Carolina)
Posts: 710
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveH35 on 06/23/2022 1:25 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/23/2022 12:37 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 06/23/2022 11:49 AM
Why would standards even be necessary? Who's going to look that closely at a door to see if it's compliant with some sort of standard???? Whoever wants this may want to obsess over something else.

What's the real issue - does someone want something that's hardwired into the unit's electrical system? I understand the issue of you're talking about a high rise condo building, but everyone else should be able to do what works for them. In my community you need approval to rep!ace your door but no one cares which lock you use.....


I agree 100%.

Yep. We're a condominium association. Maintaining a cohesive, uniform aesthetic is important. Doors are LCEs. Maintaining the locks is an owner responsibility, but that does not mean owners get to materially change the appearance of the hardware outside their door. Simple.

Again, if anyone has an example to share, please go ahead and/or email it to [email protected]. Else, there's absolutely no need to respond. This thread is not intended to educate an audience about why this is important. Exterior aesthetics are considered important at many CICs.

Lock companies change how their locks look every few years therefore A standard would be hard to keep in place. Getting a common color like Nicole would be about as far as I would go. Good luck
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/23/2022 2:37 PM
So what your saying is you just want to make sure all the door knobs/locks look alike? This would be defined in your CC&R's, By-laws, or ACC documents. I don't see it as an outside separate "standard". We have examples of paint colors that are approved. Why not simply do the same with pictures of approved door locks? Whether they are electronic or mechanical they still "lock". It's the APPEARANCE and consistency issue.

Are you going to issue fines or make them remove the locks if they don't meet the "standard"? Our HOA if there was something of "standard" it most likely would be something that the HOA paid for if needing replaced. Example is that we all had exterior light post in the front yards. They all had to have a round 14 inch ball around it. The owner replaced the bulbs. The HOA would replace the fixtures due to damage. If the owner wanted to do it, then they had to buy the same round ball from our vendor. Otherwise, we would tell them to remove it.

The power to define a uniform appearance is absolutely granted by our governing documents. Owners most to request permission to make these changes. Given that happens, there should be no need to issue a fine or stop work, etc. Nobody apparently has an example to share. Thanks for posting.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Yep no examples to post fitting your terms of post...
Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We're rehabbing our Multi-story condo corridors and replacing our 21 y.o. residential doors. The previous simple locks were from the developer and were all alike. Despite being against the Rules--nothing may be attached to the door exteriors-- some owners installed combination locks.

Our new locks will do everything but walk your dog. From Board VP and chair of the "Project Committee": "Everyone is getting new door lock and handle hardware with remote control from your phone capability! It will have an electronic key pad. It will also work with a key. It’s programmable… owners can create unique codes for their cleaning staff, a code that’s only good for two hour slot for a real estate agent, or for a plumber to enter if you're at work, etc"

If by "standard, Steve, you mean some kind of rule, we'll just beef ours up to say something like “No security device other than that installed by the Association on the door exteriors may be attached or installed.” Or words to that effect. in our schedule of fines, we'll add wording about these locks, e.g., Owners who alter or add to residential door exteriors locks will face a fine of xxx and the cost to restore xx brand lock and repair any needed door exterior finish. Or similar.

(Our door exteriors too are exclusive use common area)
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/24/2022 9:51 AM
We're rehabbing our Multi-story condo corridors and replacing our 21 y.o. residential doors. The previous simple locks were from the developer and were all alike. Despite being against the Rules--nothing may be attached to the door exteriors-- some owners installed combination locks.

Our new locks will do everything but walk your dog. From Board VP and chair of the "Project Committee": "Everyone is getting new door lock and handle hardware with remote control from your phone capability! It will have an electronic key pad. It will also work with a key. It’s programmable… owners can create unique codes for their cleaning staff, a code that’s only good for two hour slot for a real estate agent, or for a plumber to enter if you're at work, etc"

If by "standard, Steve, you mean some kind of rule, we'll just beef ours up to say something like “No security device other than that installed by the Association on the door exteriors may be attached or installed.” Or words to that effect. in our schedule of fines, we'll add wording about these locks, e.g., Owners who alter or add to residential door exteriors locks will face a fine of xxx and the cost to restore xx brand lock and repair any needed door exterior finish. Or similar.

(Our door exteriors too are exclusive use common area)

Kerry,

I have hope that we're going to allow more than one type of electronic lock mechanism within a written standard that does not limit owners to a make and model (SKU) that, inevitably, will not survive the test of time as it exists today. As such, a written standard is descriptive without being absolutely prescriptive. The goal is to define the finish and other elements in a way that owners can DIY (as our declaration suggests).

Since door lock hardware is a homeowner responsibility to maintain, repair and replace, I do not believe that our association will intervene directly to do any work for any particular unit door. I have a feeling that our CIC will never replace unit entry doors (unless there's an issue of which I am unaware). In fact, unit entry door replacement is not contemplated in any reserve study I've seen (apparently yours has this?). I'd be curious to know why your unit entry doors need to be replaced after only 21 years. Are they exposed to the weather? Ours our interior fire-rated doors that cost over $1,000 each. It would easily cost our association over $200,000 to perform a door replacement including all labor and materials.

Regards,
Steve

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
OK; I understand now. You simply want to keep a uniform finish/color on the exterior locks.

Our HOA is responsible to repair/repalc our locks unless it's clear that an owners misused the device.

Good question about replacing our exterior doors to Units. Having noted we're a high rise many times, I'm surprised you thought the doors might be exposed to the weather.

Our reserve study always has had has a Refinish Doors component. But patching gouges, etc., filling deep scratches has not been up to our standards in terms of appearance. Part of the reason is the doors have a very, very dark shiny finish. The "porch" light shines on them and every dip, patch, ding, etc. looks terrible. The dark doors also are very dated looking. Our reserve specialist point out that sometimes comments "ugly out" before they wear out.

Removing them to stain them a different color was going to be hugely costly as temp. secure doors would need to be installed while the work was done and was curing. The casings, of course, would need to be done too.

Don't you hav a refurbish or refinish door on your reserves study, Steve? Or do you just do such work out of your operations budget as needed?
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/24/2022 2:33 PM
OK; I understand now. You simply want to keep a uniform finish/color on the exterior locks.

Our HOA is responsible to repair/repalc our locks unless it's clear that an owners misused the device.

Good question about replacing our exterior doors to Units. Having noted we're a high rise many times, I'm surprised you thought the doors might be exposed to the weather.

Our reserve study always has had has a Refinish Doors component. But patching gouges, etc., filling deep scratches has not been up to our standards in terms of appearance. Part of the reason is the doors have a very, very dark shiny finish. The "porch" light shines on them and every dip, patch, ding, etc. looks terrible. The dark doors also are very dated looking. Our reserve specialist point out that sometimes comments "ugly out" before they wear out.

Removing them to stain them a different color was going to be hugely costly as temp. secure doors would need to be installed while the work was done and was curing. The casings, of course, would need to be done too.

Don't you hav a refurbish or refinish door on your reserves study, Steve? Or do you just do such work out of your operations budget as needed?

I'll be honest Kerry that replacing interior facing, fire-rated condominium unit doors is not a component in any reserve study I've seen in Seattle. The cost in our case ($200,000 to $300,000) is nothing compared to some other condominiums that have very nice doors with beautiful finishes (perhaps more like yours). Doors really are meant to last forever. And why wouldn't they? Ours get repainted every year as needed for relatively little cost and all of them get a fresh coat of paint every 10 years as part of the major common area update frequency.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Ah, wish we were so lucky, but yes, our doors have a deep rich wood-grain stain. I've been in many condos in my downtown where we are and I honestly can't remember the exterior door material or color in them. I have feeling that they're not painted as you seem to describe.

Our project was the first for a well-known developer from Canada & in CA or our area--can't remember which. So the doors, of curse, were his choice. Took a quick look and he's building a twin tower high rise in downtown Seattle. I think.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Ah, wish we were so lucky, but yes, our doors have a deep rich wood-grain stain. I've been in many condos in my downtown where we are and I honestly can't remember the exterior door material or color in them. I have feeling that they're not painted as you seem to describe.

Our project was the first for a well-known developer from Canada & in CA or our area--can't remember which. So the doors, of curse, were his choice. Took a quick look and he's building a twin tower high rise in downtown Seattle. I think.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/24/2022 5:03 PM
Ah, wish we were so lucky, but yes, our doors have a deep rich wood-grain stain. I've been in many condos in my downtown where we are and I honestly can't remember the exterior door material or color in them. I have feeling that they're not painted as you seem to describe.

Our project was the first for a well-known developer from Canada & in CA or our area--can't remember which. So the doors, of curse, were his choice. Took a quick look and he's building a twin tower high rise in downtown Seattle. I think.

Bosa and Westbank ... both Canadian

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