Am I the CEO of the HOA?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

The by-laws state that the President is also the CEO of the organization, and assumes the duties normally dealt with as the CEO.

We make all of our Decisions at Board meetings, but things frequently pop up between Board meetings that our PM wants a board member to provide direction on. Most are small things, like whether to use color or black and white for a mailing that we are doing, or whether to e-mail blast the entire neighborhood about someone's missing dog.

Last month, I was sent 89 e-mails from our property manager and I sent her 92 e-mails. Probably 50% of those were asking or providing direction, so I easily provide direction 40 to 50 times a month. All small stuff.

A lot of people here say that I shouldn't do that, everything needs to be decided at meetings. But without direction, our PM would flounder and little would be done. Right now, a ton of work gets done and our HOA and neighoborhood look well run as a result.

So, am I the CEO of the organization?

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

Do CEOs of Fortune 500 companies help their administrative staff decide between color or black-and-white copies?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ND on 06/09/2022 12:21 PM
Do CEOs of Fortune 500 companies help their administrative staff decide between color or black-and-white copies?

The title of CEO is used by organizations large and small. I believe you are mistaken if you think the title of CEO is only used by Fortune 500 companies.

The reality is that I am a CEO of a very small organization.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

89 and 92 emails to one person? Seriously?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/09/2022 12:23 PM
89 and 92 emails to one person? Seriously?

Yes. It sort of drives me nuts. I'm not exactly sure why the PM thinks she needs so much direction, but she makes the request asking for direction and I oblige by providing it.

It's about 3 e-mails a day that I receive from the PM.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/09/2022 12:23 PM
89 and 92 emails to one person? Seriously?

Being the CEO is serious business buster!

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 06/09/2022 12:25 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/09/2022 12:23 PM
89 and 92 emails to one person? Seriously?

Being the CEO is serious business buster!

First, I would never deal with that many emails from one dividual in that period of time. The HOA would be looking for another MC.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/09/2022 12:30 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 06/09/2022 12:25 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/09/2022 12:23 PM
89 and 92 emails to one person? Seriously?

Being the CEO is serious business buster!

First, I would never deal with that many emails from one dividual in that period of time. The HOA would be looking for another MC.

The PM was clear with me a long time ago that she prefers single subject e-mails. After our Board meeting, where we made dozens of decisions, I sent about 10 separate e-mails to her each covering a single subject of the Board meeting. She seems very adept at handling e-mail and doesn't seem to mind.

None of my e-mails involve much work for her. Most of the heavy lifting I take care of. (For example, I write up the e-mail blast that gets sent our prior to each board meeting. Her job is simply to load it into the e-mail blast software and press send.)

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Michael

If you look at your Bylaws, at all the officers position listed, does your Secretary actually perform the duties outlined? Does your Treasurer actually perform all the duties listed in the Bylaws. Once you hire a MC, you are delegating many of the duties set forth in your Bylaws, including the CEO position.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/09/2022 12:57 PM
Michael

If you look at your Bylaws, at all the officers position listed, does your Secretary actually perform the duties outlined? Does your Treasurer actually perform all the duties listed in the Bylaws. Once you hire a MC, you are delegating many of the duties set forth in your Bylaws, including the CEO position.

I guess we, with a different management company, could delegate the powers of the CEO. Our management company hasn't accepted it. While they do the accounting and some of the communication, they constantly ask for Board direction on most everything, so I provide it to them. Thus, I do not think we have delegated the role of the CEO to the PM company.

From what I have gathered, your property management style takes on more work that our PM company. I wouldn't mind if ours needed less direction. But we have whom we have, my job is not to worry about that but rather keep our homeowners happy, which they are right now.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 11:55 AM
The by-laws state that the President is also the CEO of the organization, and assumes the duties normally dealt with as the CEO.

We make all of our Decisions at Board meetings, but things frequently pop up between Board meetings that our PM wants a board member to provide direction on. Most are small things, like whether to use color or black and white for a mailing that we are doing, or whether to e-mail blast the entire neighborhood about someone's missing dog.

Last month, I was sent 89 e-mails from our property manager and I sent her 92 e-mails. Probably 50% of those were asking or providing direction, so I easily provide direction 40 to 50 times a month. All small stuff.

A lot of people here say that I shouldn't do that, everything needs to be decided at meetings. But without direction, our PM would flounder and little would be done. Right now, a ton of work gets done and our HOA and neighoborhood look well run as a result.

So, am I the CEO of the organization?

More like “CEO of the sofa”, if ya ask me. 😝

Seriously: this reminds me of a section of Heinlein’s The Man Who Sold The Moon: the guy who was in charge of designing and building the moon rocket was constantly getting bogged down with trivial “B&W or color?” decisions. As I recall, the Big Boss grabbed some guy at random and made him an Executive Assistant. Problem solved! Although it’s important to remember it’s a work of science fiction.

This is just me, but I’d consider 3 emails a day to be light duty, especially if they’re all truly of the magnitude of “B&W or color?”

Is someone on the Board suggesting that you’re making non-trivial policy decisions without consulting the Board?

I totally approve of the single subject email thing. I should work harder on adhering to that myself.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

This is what happens when you insist on making most, if not all of the decisions - some of us have discussed this before. You have a board of directors and all of you should be making decisions regarding the overall function of the community (that's why you have board meetings and vote) and leave the day-to-day to the property manager. If your property manager is contacting you for stuff like "should I send an email blast on a missing dog," it may be because you made so many decisions like that in the past and now that's become the norm.

If your property manager is floundering without direction, you need to get another one who can work independently or give him/her a list of stuff that can be done without getting a go-ahead from the board. Start with reviewing the contract that should dictate what the day to day tasks should be (it probably won't be an inclusive list and doesn't have to be. In fact, you should read it again so you're not looking over his/her shoulder 24/7. If your community is getting to where it's well run, congratulations - it should be time where you can step back and let the PM do the job that you're paying him/her to do.

As for the CEO stuff, there are some differences between what a CEO of a for-profit organization would do vs. a non-profit organization like a HOA. Personally, this sounds like you're more interested in adding a fancy title to the position (Look at me - I'm the president AND CEO!) Whatever - it doesn't make a difference as to how the work is done. Focus on what your documents say you should be doing as president and stop obsessing over other titles.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 12:23 PM

Posted By ND on 06/09/2022 12:21 PM
Do CEOs of Fortune 500 companies help their administrative staff decide between color or black-and-white copies?

The title of CEO is used by organizations large and small. I believe you are mistaken if you think the title of CEO is only used by Fortune 500 companies.

The reality is that I am a CEO of a very small organization.

Appreciate the education. I'm tracking.

My point was that you're involving yourself in minutiae that CEOs (of both large and small companies) would likely never be involved in (or at least be involved in on a recurring basis). A little different situation of a very small company where perhaps the CEO is also CFO, COO, and perhaps only employee . . . but that's a special case and also not you.

You've complained before about the amount of emails. And response here from the forum was generally much the same . . . delegate, share workload, don't micromanage, and empower paid personnel (management company) to make and carry-out decisions that meet certain criteria. Certainly the MC should know by now preference on color vs. B&W copies, when it's appropriate to send email blasts, etc. However if they do take action which results in getting chewed out by the CEO, then there's the rub!

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 11:55 AM
The by-laws state that the President is also the CEO of the organization, and assumes the duties normally dealt with as the CEO.

We make all of our Decisions at Board meetings, but things frequently pop up between Board meetings that our PM wants a board member to provide direction on. Most are small things, like whether to use color or black and white for a mailing that we are doing, or whether to e-mail blast the entire neighborhood about someone's missing dog.

Last month, I was sent 89 e-mails from our property manager and I sent her 92 e-mails. Probably 50% of those were asking or providing direction, so I easily provide direction 40 to 50 times a month. All small stuff.

A lot of people here say that I shouldn't do that, everything needs to be decided at meetings. But without direction, our PM would flounder and little would be done. Right now, a ton of work gets done and our HOA and neighoborhood look well run as a result.

So, am I the CEO of the organization?

Michael, you know the answer to your question because this forum has dealt with it in the past 30 days. There are no CEOs in the volunteer CIC business in Washington State (nor in any other states if you're following best practices). That's because your entire Board is in charge of governance. Your "job" is primarily to preside at Board meetings and possibly at Member meetings. Beyond that, your job might also entail being a liaison in certain circumstances. That's about it. CEOs have the ability to govern without their Board weighing in on everything. You do not. I'll repeat some of my favorite quotes here in this thread as a convenience:

>>> Boards should understand that the president's power-or authority-is no more and no less than the other board members.
>>> The entire board acts as a unit when fulfilling governance functions. Board members generally act individually or through committees when fulfilling support functions.
>>> Control: No one person owns or controls a nonprofit. A nonprofit is governed by a board of directors.
>>> To be a valid act of the corporation, the act must be approved by a majority of the directors at a board meeting in which a quorum is present.
>>> Directors cannot appear by proxy or give their proxies to another director. Directors must be present to listen to the discussion, consider each resolution, and vote based on their judgment.

If you'd like more references, feel free to head over to Decision-Making 101: https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/governance/DECISIONS

Regards,
Steve

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

However, I am a CEO per our by-laws.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 4:49 PM
However, I am a CEO per our by-laws.

I really don't even understand why this matters.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 4:49 PM
However, I am a CEO per our by-laws.

Michael, your bylaws, in this case, are irrelevant, but what's worse is that your bylaws have given you a false impression of reality and, despite plenty of counsel to the contrary, you have continued to push.

Folks like JohnT wonder why this matters. Rogue Board members (especially entitled officers, generally serving in the role of president) are one of the major challenges with CIC living. One of my next blogs will be the ten pitfalls to avoid with CIC living. Michael has chosen to perpetuate one of pitfalls.

Regards,
Steve

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

We know your PM doesn't work on your premises because you have no office space. But is your assn. part of a portfolio of associations for her? Put another way, how many hours a week does your PM devote to your assn.?

What duties are specified for your PM in your contract with the MC? Remind me, how homes in your assn.

Having read dozens of your posts as Michael and previously as Henry (no state), and to one of Shelia's points, I think you are acutely attuned to details--matters that you notice or think about, that few others do, or if they do, they don't care about them. I think it's possible early on in your relationship with your PM, you asked questions about details. Knowing these were important to you, it's possible that the PM responded with questions about more and more details that you quickly answered.

You & the PM have created this time-wasting cycle and only the two of you can change it. Waaaaay too many details.

Meanwhile, CEOs do not spend time on details like this except, as someone else mentioned, in the tiniest of firms.

Our current prez was an Air Force Acad. Grad and career officer in the Air Force. Next he held a high level position in the IT Dept. of a national org., where he also was greatly involved in corporate training and management development. Still in his mid-60s & retired, he moved here, was elected to the Board, and is finishing his 4th year of service & 3rd as president. He's not a detail kinda guy, BUT he's been unable to escape a hierarchical way of thinking. He's an excellent meeting presider and has been instrumental in encouraging other owners to form & join committees. BUT he's on the two most important and chairs one. So he's delegated to some extent. BUT he can't let go of role as (however benevolent) top dog. He also has personally interacted with many owners about their individual assn. issues, which is our onsite PM's job. He's been really good for our Assn., but it's clear to me he's burning out.

It seems there's something in Michael's background that compels him to feel like he or someone must be "in charge" of everyone. It might not have been his career (an engineer, I think?) but perhaps influence from cultural expectations or upbringing.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveH35 on 06/09/2022 5:42 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 4:49 PM
However, I am a CEO per our by-laws.

Michael, your bylaws, in this case, are irrelevant, but what's worse is that your bylaws have given you a false impression of reality and, despite plenty of counsel to the contrary, you have continued to push.

Folks like JohnT wonder why this matters. Rogue Board members (especially entitled officers, generally serving in the role of president) are one of the major challenges with CIC living. One of my next blogs will be the ten pitfalls to avoid with CIC living. Michael has chosen to perpetuate one of pitfalls.

Regards,
Steve

The bottom line is I don't care if the title is CEO or HEAD HONCHO. Just do your job to the best of your ability and as outlined in the governing docs and state and federal laws. Your face ain't gonna end up on Mt. Rushmore so other than an inflated ego, who cares?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 06/09/2022 6:17 PM

Posted By SteveH35 on 06/09/2022 5:42 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 4:49 PM
However, I am a CEO per our by-laws.

Michael, your bylaws, in this case, are irrelevant, but what's worse is that your bylaws have given you a false impression of reality and, despite plenty of counsel to the contrary, you have continued to push.

Folks like JohnT wonder why this matters. Rogue Board members (especially entitled officers, generally serving in the role of president) are one of the major challenges with CIC living. One of my next blogs will be the ten pitfalls to avoid with CIC living. Michael has chosen to perpetuate one of pitfalls.

Regards,
Steve

The bottom line is I don't care if the title is CEO or HEAD HONCHO. Just do your job to the best of your ability and as outlined in the governing docs and state and federal laws. Your face ain't gonna end up on Mt. Rushmore so other than an inflated ego, who cares?

I don't call myself CEO at Board meetings, meetings with vendors, or when I meet with homeowners. The only place that I use it is on LinkedIn, my professional resume, and when for applying for leadership positions in my professional career. In those situations, it can be career advancing to have CEO experience so I use it then.

My ego is not inflated at all. I'm actually pretty humble and as most know, being Board President & CEO is more about drugery than anything else.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/09/2022 6:07 PM
We know your PM doesn't work on your premises because you have no office space. But is your assn. part of a portfolio of associations for her? Put another way, how many hours a week does your PM devote to your assn.?

What duties are specified for your PM in your contract with the MC? Remind me, how homes in your assn.

Having read dozens of your posts as Michael and previously as Henry (no state), and to one of Shelia's points, I think you are acutely attuned to details--matters that you notice or think about, that few others do, or if they do, they don't care about them. I think it's possible early on in your relationship with your PM, you asked questions about details. Knowing these were important to you, it's possible that the PM responded with questions about more and more details that you quickly answered.

You & the PM have created this time-wasting cycle and only the two of you can change it. Waaaaay too many details.

Meanwhile, CEOs do not spend time on details like this except, as someone else mentioned, in the tiniest of firms.

Our current prez was an Air Force Acad. Grad and career officer in the Air Force. Next he held a high level position in the IT Dept. of a national org., where he also was greatly involved in corporate training and management development. Still in his mid-60s & retired, he moved here, was elected to the Board, and is finishing his 4th year of service & 3rd as president. He's not a detail kinda guy, BUT he's been unable to escape a hierarchical way of thinking. He's an excellent meeting presider and has been instrumental in encouraging other owners to form & join committees. BUT he's on the two most important and chairs one. So he's delegated to some extent. BUT he can't let go of role as (however benevolent) top dog. He also has personally interacted with many owners about their individual assn. issues, which is our onsite PM's job. He's been really good for our Assn., but it's clear to me he's burning out.

It seems there's something in Michael's background that compels him to feel like he or someone must be "in charge" of everyone. It might not have been his career (an engineer, I think?) but perhaps influence from cultural expectations or upbringing.

Our PM has multiple communities (I don't know how many, I haven't asked). We probably get 4-6 hours a week of her time. I respect that and try to give her only the easy tasks that don't take a lot of time, because I know if I give her a bunch of complex tasks, she won't have the time to do them and they won't get done by when we need them.

As far as delegation goes, our board voted at a previous meeting to have her take on a stronger role in the community. We discussed it as a Board at a meeting, put it in the meeting minutes, and I relayed the request to her. She declined, saying that we are the Board and we must make the decisions. She can only work to our direction. Thus, I give her direction.

Frankly, I think that a lot of the reason that she asks so many questions is because her boss tells her that as long as she is working to the direction of the Board, she won't get in trouble. And I choose to respond. Thus, she asks for direction all of the time and I provide it all of the time. It seems to work. it's a lot of work and more than most HOA presidents would do, but we have a better HOA as a result and our homeowners are happy which is nice.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 7:32 PM

I don't call myself CEO at Board meetings, meetings with vendors, or when I meet with homeowners. The only place that I use it is on LinkedIn, my professional resume, and when for applying for leadership positions in my professional career. In those situations, it can be career advancing to have CEO experience so I use it then.

My ego is not inflated at all. I'm actually pretty humble and as most know, being Board President & CEO is more about drugery than anything else.

LOL Michael. You added "CEO" of your HOA on your resume?!? Your ego is the size of the moon.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveH35 on 06/10/2022 7:00 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 7:32 PM

I don't call myself CEO at Board meetings, meetings with vendors, or when I meet with homeowners. The only place that I use it is on LinkedIn, my professional resume, and when for applying for leadership positions in my professional career. In those situations, it can be career advancing to have CEO experience so I use it then.

My ego is not inflated at all. I'm actually pretty humble and as most know, being Board President & CEO is more about drugery than anything else.

LOL Michael. You added "CEO" of your HOA on your resume?!? Your ego is the size of the moon.

Yes, my resume lists my civic leadership roles, and says:

President & Chief Executive Officer, Issaquah Highlands Community Association (2021 – present)

Laugh all you want, but my title is per the by-laws of the association and thus appropriate for my resume.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Yes, in a "small potatoes" way, you are the CEO. The property manager will be your Chief Operating Officer to manage day-to-day affairs. Your job is to ensure smooth implementation of the board of directors' vision and directives while ensuring daily tasks are completed.

Technically, few daily matters should rise to needing a board vote if they're involving routine organizational operation. Board policies should be crafted to allow jobs to be completed by appropriate parties with minimal board of directors Hands-On Management.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/10/2022 8:18 AM

Posted By SteveH35 on 06/10/2022 7:00 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 06/09/2022 7:32 PM

I don't call myself CEO at Board meetings, meetings with vendors, or when I meet with homeowners. The only place that I use it is on LinkedIn, my professional resume, and when for applying for leadership positions in my professional career. In those situations, it can be career advancing to have CEO experience so I use it then.

My ego is not inflated at all. I'm actually pretty humble and as most know, being Board President & CEO is more about drugery than anything else.

LOL Michael. You added "CEO" of your HOA on your resume?!? Your ego is the size of the moon.

Yes, my resume lists my civic leadership roles, and says:

President & Chief Executive Officer, Issaquah Highlands Community Association (2021 – present)

Laugh all you want, but my title is per the by-laws of the association and thus appropriate for my resume.

The risk you run, fair or not, is that some people will see "CEO" of an HOA and roll their eyes while they throw your resume in the trash. You already see that some people here think it reeks of an inflated ego and the person that reads your resume may think the same thing.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KellyM3 on 06/10/2022 8:36 AM
Yes, in a "small potatoes" way, you are the CEO. The property manager will be your Chief Operating Officer to manage day-to-day affairs. Your job is to ensure smooth implementation of the board of directors' vision and directives while ensuring daily tasks are completed.

Technically, few daily matters should rise to needing a board vote if they're involving routine organizational operation. Board policies should be crafted to allow jobs to be completed by appropriate parties with minimal board of directors Hands-On Management.

Thank you. You get it.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Now knowing your PM only serves your assn. 4-6 hours a week, and has no office on your premises helps me understand why you're involved in so many tiny details, and larger ones too, Michael. I recall, for instance you accompany prospective vendors. With so few PM hours, it's almost as if your sizable community is self-managed.

Tell us again how many homes in your HOA?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/10/2022 9:34 AM
Now knowing your PM only serves your assn. 4-6 hours a week, and has no office on your premises helps me understand why you're involved in so many tiny details, and larger ones too, Michael. I recall, for instance you accompany prospective vendors. With so few PM hours, it's almost as if your sizable community is self-managed.

Tell us again how many homes in your HOA?

We have about 270 - 280 homes. Our PM says that our HOA is more active than any other HOA she has, but she also recognizes our community shines as a result of having an active HOA.

Yes, our PM company is good at administrative tasks but does not have bandwidth nor the contract to be decision makers for our community. I'm sure that I could put less energy into it, but then our HOA wouldn't be run as well and our community would reflect that.

I personally enjoy the time that I am putting into it for now, and am happy our community looks sharp as a result.