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MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
For the first time in my 3 years on the Board, we have a homeowner who is refusing to comply with a rule. He decided the rule is ridiculous and the board is simply using it to harass him. Announced (for the third time) that he will get an attorney who will get a judge to rule against us, but for some reason the attorney has never contacted us or filed suit yet.

Anyways, do we just keep fining the homeowner? What's the next step?

The violation is open, obvious, and clear violation of the CC&Rs. It's neither questionable nor borderline.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Michael

Does WA allow for Liens based on fines? If so, go for it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Tell us what the violation is. Advice could vary based on the actual violation.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
If course they think the rule is ridiculous - why should anyone expect them to live in a HOA where everyone agrees to comply with the rules - that don't apply to HIM because he is.

And you've been on the message board long enough to know what's next - you either fine him (if you have the authority, homeowners are aware of the policy, appeal rights, etc) and If he tells you (again) to kick rocks, you'll need to consider legal action.

Follow your bloody policy - just because he threatened the board doesn't mean he'll follow through. And if he does sue, that doesn't mean he'll win. You've been told before some homeowners will try you on the rules, but if you can weather that storm, others will get the message.

It's also possible the rule IS stupid, so it should be tweaked or dropped. Go back to your last conversation on rules enforcement and really read it this time to decide what's next.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
For privacy reasons, I cannot share details of the violation. It might go to legal and thus would be inappropriate to post here.

Let's say we have a provision in our CC&Rs that says lawns can be no more than 4 inches tall and this homeowner's lawn is 12 inches tall. Clear violation of CC&R.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:


I have a couple of these. The board has considered the cost of litigation and decided that it is in the best interests of the association not to file suit but continue to levy fines and will require the violation to be corrected if the property is sold. They are both for unapproved structures; this approach wouldn't work for every violation.

If it's something that is also a violation of city code you could see if they will weigh in.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 06/01/2022 9:38 AM

I have a couple of these. The board has considered the cost of litigation and decided that it is in the best interests of the association not to file suit but continue to levy fines and will require the violation to be corrected if the property is sold. They are both for unapproved structures; this approach wouldn't work for every violation.

If it's something that is also a violation of city code you could see if they will weigh in.

Interesting. I think that is a well thought out option.

No, this isn't a city code violation. It's a neighborhood appearance violation. Yes, fines are something that have to be paid before a house can pass through escrow. We could fine about 6 - 12 times per year and I think that would be sufficient.
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
In lieu of paying fines, perhaps this individual would be willing to provide free storage of the HOA's durable goods. Sounds like a win-win!
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Good one, ND.

Our CC&Rs give the Board the authority to correct violations and bill the owner. Do yours? The Owner would be called to a hearing and the board would inform him that it has decided that this unsightly violation must be cured. If the Owner doesn't cure it within x days, the board will hire someone to cure it and will bill the owner.

Otherwise, it just stays on the owner's file, and paid when sold.

Hmmm, was Steve kicked off the site? He's a good WA resource. Did Augustin quit does to disagreeing with Steve's contributions here?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Most states do not allow for fines to be turned into liens or foreclosure. There is some "fancy" accounting that can apply the dues paid to the fines to look like dues not paid.

So I am not sure how fines are going to stop escrow when it is liens that do. Can not foreclose on fines.

Honestly I find fines mostly not all that enforceable. Instead OUR HOA may fix the issue and send the owner the bill. If not paid then it can be made into a lien.

Former HOA President
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2022 11:12 AM
Most states do not allow for fines to be turned into liens or foreclosure. There is some "fancy" accounting that can apply the dues paid to the fines to look like dues not paid.

So I am not sure how fines are going to stop escrow when it is liens that do. Can not foreclose on fines.

Honestly I find fines mostly not all that enforceable. Instead OUR HOA may fix the issue and send the owner the bill. If not paid then it can be made into a lien.

In many states, the seller is required to provide a disclosure to the buyer that the property is in good standing with the association.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Good standing means dues are paid. Fines are not included in that definition.

Former HOA President
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2022 12:14 PM
Good standing means dues are paid. Fines are not included in that definition.

Okay. When are you free to fly out here and explain to everyone in Texas that we have been providing resale certificates the wrong way.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I can drive over... Typically good standing is defined as unpaid dues as fines are punitive and somewhat subjective charges. Your state may define it differently but I would verify it before assuming fines are included. Just because a practice is done does not mean it is right.

Former HOA President
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2022 1:20 PM
I can drive over... Typically good standing is defined as unpaid dues as fines are punitive and somewhat subjective charges. Your state may define it differently but I would verify it before assuming fines are included. Just because a practice is done does not mean it is right.

And you base your experience on what? Bring your rules and regulations to every meeting so you can tell ever y deep south person how we do things in Alabama? BTW, do you have any idea what the laws are in your state, or do you just go by what the governing docs say?
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2022 12:14 PM
Good standing means dues are paid. Fines are not included in that definition.

Our estoppel certificates that are required for closing do include both overdue monthly dues and any outstanding fines.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Common useage of "good standing" in CA is both overdue monthly dues and any outstanding fines. It's not in our HOA statutes, though. It's defined by individual HOAs.

How does your new HOA define good standing, Melissa? How does AL define good standing, if at all?

Please stop spreading your myths.

(This is the point where Melissa refuses to review her own docs or AL law.)
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/01/2022 1:23 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2022 1:20 PM
I can drive over... Typically good standing is defined as unpaid dues as fines are punitive and somewhat subjective charges. Your state may define it differently but I would verify it before assuming fines are included. Just because a practice is done does not mean it is right.


And you base your experience on what? Bring your rules and regulations to every meeting so you can tell ever y deep south person how we do things in Alabama? BTW, do you have any idea what the laws are in your state, or do you just go by what the governing docs say?

She bases it on what she feels is correct. Nothing else.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Have you read MY HOA rules? So don't tell me I am making stuff up. Each HOA is different. Some HOA's don't even have the caveat of being in "good standing" for many things. That includes being voted in as a board member. If it doesn't say must be in "Good Standing" in your HOA as a qualifier to run for a board you can run.

Good standing has many different meanings to different HOA's/States. I am just stating make sure what it is defined in YOUR HOA.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Melissa, you wrote "typically," which means usually or ordinarily. etc. You wrote fines aren't included in the definition. THEN you wrote, well they (definitions) do vary and are different.

What do your HOA documents say about "good standing?" Do they use this word? Waiting.......
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Wikipedia Definition:

Membership organizations
In membership organizations, or voluntary associations, there may be criteria for becoming a member and maintaining membership. Such criteria may include payment of dues or attendance of meetings. Failure to meet these criteria may result in loss of "good standing" within the organization or loss of membership in the organization altogether. Unless the organization defines "good standing" and what causes a member to lose good standing, a member has all the rights of membership even if in arrears in payment of dues.[8]

Do NOT confuse a HOA "good standing" status with an INDIVIDUAL. There is a difference between Incorporated (including LLC's) "Good standards" and an Membership organization like a HOA. A Corporate does include fines/lawsuits/unpaid debts. A membership organization it's unpaid dues.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The OP was talking about an individual's violation. You then continued at that level with "dues," etc., in HOAs. Your Wik. addition is completely off the rails for a few reasons.

Do your HOA's docs, Melissa, use the term "good standing" anywhere? What about AL?

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Here is the resale certificate required in Texas. You may observe that it requires disclosure of “all amounts” due to the association and any known violations.

https://www.trec.texas.gov/forms/subdivision-information-including-resale-certificate-property-subject-mandatory-membership

If you would like to argue with the Texas Real Estate Commission have at it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again reading is fundamental... IF your documents do not define "Good standing" then it doesn't exist as a condition. It also has to define what good standing is. (It's in the defition I posted after all...). So NO my HOA documents do NOT have "good standing" nor is it defined. Hence that means that "Good standing" is not something the HOA can use against anyone. All they can do is hold not paying HOA dues as basis for liens/foreclosures to collect unpaid dues. H

Our HOA does allow for us to pay for correcting and making the owner pay for the repairs. That is not a "fine". It is money owed the HOA.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
You keep changing your argument, Melissa. So about your Wik. citation. Recall that most HOAs *are* corporations.

Please, Melissa, cite the words that permit your new HOA to bill Owners to bring them into compliance with the Documents. Do not summarize.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/01/2022 10:40 AM
Good one, ND.

Our CC&Rs give the Board the authority to correct violations and bill the owner. Do yours? The Owner would be called to a hearing and the board would inform him that it has decided that this unsightly violation must be cured. If the Owner doesn't cure it within x days, the board will hire someone to cure it and will bill the owner.

Otherwise, it just stays on the owner's file, and paid when sold.

Hmmm, was Steve kicked off the site? He's a good WA resource. Did Augustin quit does to disagreeing with Steve's contributions here?

Steve is present, but I'm enjoying some time finishing some blogs and enjoying the outdoors! It's amazing how much time can be consumed replying to threads online...

Anyway, I can't imagine a court would be keen on this situation being escalated there if we're really talking about an overgrown lawn. I agree with some other folks that you need to ensure your governing documents support all the actions you plan to take and that going to "war" over the appearance of the lawn might not make sense. Perhaps you are permitted to rectify the situation and bill the cost back to the owner. That sounds like a great idea and eventually you'll have a way to recover the funds.

Regards,
Steve
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am not sure how posting my documents with NO references to being in "Good standing" or the defintion of what that means is going to apply. The FACT is your HOA documents must state those conditions. It must say "Good standing" means XXX or you face this XXX consequence. Which is usually the inability to run for a board position. Good standing in my former HOA meant up to date on dues. It did not include any fines or corrective actions.

I suspect many other HOA's documents are the same way. They don't include the words "Good standing" nor the definition of what that means. Which then means that you can't stop an escrow based on anything but unpaid dues/liens. Liens based on unpaid dues or unpaid repairs.

The lack of this being in your documents just means you can't do certain options. No need to argue over it. Just means your membership has no "good standing" definition or requirement. Not an unusual situation. Each HOA is different and individual.

Former HOA President

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