creating Rules and Regulations that apply to the Board

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

ARTICLE 4
POWERS AND DUTIES OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS
4.1. Powers. The Board of Directors shall have power to
(a) Adopt and publish rules and regulations governing the use
of the Common Area and facilities, and the personal conduct of the
Members, their guests thereon, and to establish penalties for the
infraction thereof.
(sections b,c,d,e,f,g skipped)
(h) Do anything necessary or desirable, including, but not
limited to, establishing any rules or regulations which the
ASsociation deems necessary to carry out the purpose of the
Association and set forth herein or as permitted by law.

The above is part of our governing documents. It gives the board of directors pretty much absolute power. Even the power to regulate the PERSONAL CONDUCT OF MEMBERS. Our HOA has had some real loosers on the board in the past that have had big egos and been on power trips, singling out members and uneven enforcement of CC&R's.

I am currently on the board. I want to avoid future loosers from serving on the board by having a special section in our Rules and Regulations that specifically addresses and clarifies their powers and how they are not to be abused.
I've never seen a Rules and regulations document that includes a section on the board (why would a board want to regulate it's own power?) What kind of clauses would you recommend be put in the Board R&Rs? Can we have future board members sign an ethics agreement that says they will not change the R&R's without a majority of home owners approving?

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ThadC2 on 05/29/2022 7:19 AM

ARTICLE 4
POWERS AND DUTIES OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS
4.1. Powers. The Board of Directors shall have power to
(a) Adopt and publish rules and regulations governing the use
of the Common Area and facilities, and the personal conduct of the
Members, their guests thereon, and to establish penalties for the
infraction thereof.
(sections b,c,d,e,f,g skipped)
(h) Do anything necessary or desirable, including, but not
limited to, establishing any rules or regulations which the
ASsociation deems necessary to carry out the purpose of the
Association and set forth herein or as permitted by law.

The above is part of our governing documents. It gives the board of directors pretty much absolute power. Even the power to regulate the PERSONAL CONDUCT OF MEMBERS. Our HOA has had some real loosers on the board in the past that have had big egos and been on power trips, singling out members and uneven enforcement of CC&R's.

I am currently on the board. I want to avoid future loosers from serving on the board by having a special section in our Rules and Regulations that specifically addresses and clarifies their powers and how they are not to be abused.
I've never seen a Rules and regulations document that includes a section on the board (why would a board want to regulate it's own power?) What kind of clauses would you recommend be put in the Board R&Rs? Can we have future board members sign an ethics agreement that says they will not change the R&R's without a majority of home owners approving?

Thad,

What you're describing is best embodied in a Code of Ethics policy that is best adopted into your Bylaws. Even then, a volunteer director's tenure on your Board is likely going to be dictated by your members directly (via election and removal of directors).

I've assembled what I believe to be one of the most fair and comprehensive code of ethics examples here: https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/governance/ethics. You might also consider a conflict of interest policy which is a separate, yet related document. Colorado statutes require a conflict of interest policy.

Regards,
Steve

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Thad, that the Board can regulate conduct in the common areas is probably in every set of CC&Rs. After all, the purpose of associations, and maybe it's spelled out in yours, is to protect and maintain the common areas and assets of the assn.

It seems to me that Bylaws might have sections on the conduct of directors, e.g., cannot miss more that 3 board meetings, per year. Since you're on the Board, don't you think that now no individual board member can alone engage in unequal enforcement. Wouldn't it take a Board majority to support such a jerk with its votes?

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/29/2022 9:08 AM
Thad, that the Board can regulate conduct in the common areas is probably in every set of CC&Rs. After all, the purpose of associations, and maybe it's spelled out in yours, is to protect and maintain the common areas and assets of the assn.

It seems to me that Bylaws might have sections on the conduct of directors, e.g., cannot miss more that 3 board meetings, per year. Since you're on the Board, don't you think that now no individual board member can alone engage in unequal enforcement. Wouldn't it take a Board majority to support such a jerk with its votes?

true, but I won't be on the board forever so hopefully this document last longer then my tenure.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

thanks steve for that helpful info!

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

The best way to not have "loosers" on the board is not to elect them in the first place. Good luck with that.

I agree that ethics and professionalism are good things. But IMHO opinion, codes of conduct are window dressing unless there is some way to ensure that they're adhered to. Guess what, there already is! Typically bylaws and/or state laws state that board members serve at the pleasure of the membership and may be removed with or without cause via the annual election or a special meeting of the membership.

Codes of conduct are ultimately well-intended but are often vague and ineffective. Effective board members are already behaving ethically without being told to, and bad actors won't be stopped by a piece of paper. And unlike professional codes of conduct that can be tied to various licenses and sanctions, there really are no penalties for violating an HOA's code of conduct unless the behavior rises to the level where legal action is appropriate. Short of that, you may end up removed from the board if the membership can get their acts together and do something about you. Whoopee.

Some lawyers have also opined that signing a code of conduct may compromise a board member's ability to use the business judgement defense since the person has agreed ahead of time to act in specific ways regardless of the issues at hand.

The one benefit I see in these codes is their educational value. It's hard to believe that some homeowners and board members have never come across concepts such as conflict of interest, but it's true. The discussions around the proposed adoption of a code of conduct can help fill this gap. Now if we can convince homeowners not to vote for a candidate just because they're a dog walking buddy...

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/29/2022 9:49 AM
The best way to not have "loosers" on the board is not to elect them in the first place. Good luck with that.

I agree that ethics and professionalism are good things. But IMHO opinion, codes of conduct are window dressing unless there is some way to ensure that they're adhered to. Guess what, there already is! Typically bylaws and/or state laws state that board members serve at the pleasure of the membership and may be removed with or without cause via the annual election or a special meeting of the membership.

Codes of conduct are ultimately well-intended but are often vague and ineffective. Effective board members are already behaving ethically without being told to, and bad actors won't be stopped by a piece of paper. And unlike professional codes of conduct that can be tied to various licenses and sanctions, there really are no penalties for violating an HOA's code of conduct unless the behavior rises to the level where legal action is appropriate. Short of that, you may end up removed from the board if the membership can get their acts together and do something about you. Whoopee.

Some lawyers have also opined that signing a code of conduct may compromise a board member's ability to use the business judgement defense since the person has agreed ahead of time to act in specific ways regardless of the issues at hand.

The one benefit I see in these codes is their educational value. It's hard to believe that some homeowners and board members have never come across concepts such as conflict of interest, but it's true. The discussions around the proposed adoption of a code of conduct can help fill this gap. Now if we can convince homeowners not to vote for a candidate just because they're a dog walking buddy...

I think you'll find that it's quite easy to avoid a vague policy (for any purpose) simply by applying more due diligence when creating said policy. The example above is decidedly not vague. Could it be even longer and provide examples? Sure, but then you're getting into a tortuous document nobody wants to use.

I'll agree that enforcement usually comes down to the members and their vote. I'll disagree with lawyers who believe signing a code of conduct compromises the business judgement defense (which, by the way, has not been absolutely codified for CIC volunteer directors by the Courts).

Regards,
Steve

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/29/2022 9:49 AM
The best way to not have "loosers" on the board is not to elect them in the first place. Good luck with that.

I agree that ethics and professionalism are good things. But IMHO opinion, codes of conduct are window dressing unless there is some way to ensure that they're adhered to. Guess what, there already is! Typically bylaws and/or state laws state that board members serve at the pleasure of the membership and may be removed with or without cause via the annual election or a special meeting of the membership.

Codes of conduct are ultimately well-intended but are often vague and ineffective. Effective board members are already behaving ethically without being told to, and bad actors won't be stopped by a piece of paper. And unlike professional codes of conduct that can be tied to various licenses and sanctions, there really are no penalties for violating an HOA's code of conduct unless the behavior rises to the level where legal action is appropriate. Short of that, you may end up removed from the board if the membership can get their acts together and do something about you. Whoopee.

Some lawyers have also opined that signing a code of conduct may compromise a board member's ability to use the business judgement defense since the person has agreed ahead of time to act in specific ways regardless of the issues at hand.

The one benefit I see in these codes is their educational value. It's hard to believe that some homeowners and board members have never come across concepts such as conflict of interest, but it's true. The discussions around the proposed adoption of a code of conduct can help fill this gap. Now if we can convince homeowners not to vote for a candidate just because they're a dog walking buddy...

The last time I remember somebody being elected to the board was 20 years ago. We never get 33% quorum at any annual meeting so the bylaws let the existing board simply appoint their best friend or next door neighbor. This happens every year! What your saying sounds good in theory, but it's very hard to get a board removed if the community is so apathetic.

I want really specific R&Rs for the board. Explicitly stating the maximum fines that can be levied. In the past it has been all over the place from $100/day with no reduction at all once resolved to $15 a week (with a 75% reduction once they paid)

I want to limit when they can foreclose on a house by requiring they get input from the community. Perhaps a foreclosure committee approval, or only if they are behind on dues and not for architectural aesthetic reasons, still thinking of best way approach this.

I want to require they get HOA education, by requiring they go to a seminar or watch educational videos, etc.

Require they not vote on issues pertaining to their specific home/lot so no conflict of interest.

I want them to get approval (from a committee or a small percentage of community members) for spending on lawyers over a certain dollar amount or percentage so that our HOA is not terrorized by some over zealous violations natzi. I remember going to annual meetings where fines/violations/past dues were over $30K, now they are just a few thousand.

Basically I want specific numbers they must adhere to (or get approval from the community or committees or some group other then themselves to change ) and if not they can be removed easily by HOA members.

I want some balance to their power, currently there is none. The board could make a rule saying no alcohol, no swearing, etc. and it would be legal.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

The above are just a few examples. I'm pretty new to being on a board so if some of the more experienced people can chime in that would be great.

Having new board members sign a piece of paper pledging to be ethical is totally different then having them sign a piece of paper that specifically tells them they have numerical limits to their power. Having numbers in the rules let people easily say the board member made the fine too high, or didn't' get approval to pay more than $5000 to an attorney, etc.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Most, if not all, of Thad's posts are aimed at removing power from a BOD.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/29/2022 10:53 AM
Most, if not all, of Thad's posts are aimed at removing power from a BOD.

I'm sure your CIC boards are perfect, but other communities are not as lucky. Is your ego so frail that even discussing putting limits on other boards not even in your own state gets your feathers ruffled? Slipperslope? Maybe its' actually a good idea and will catch on huh?

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Thad,

Some of your long list of wants, for example foreclosure requirements, should be spelled out by your Declaration / CC&Rs and codified by a collections policy. Requiring committee approval for foreclosure, unless written into your statutes, is probably inappropriate.

Requiring the Board to obtain the approval of a committee or of the homeowners to spend your annual budget on anything is probably unwise. You elect the Board for a reason. I think you're going a bit overboard here.

Regards,
Steve

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ThadC2 on 05/29/2022 10:35 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/29/2022 9:49 AM
The best way to not have "loosers" on the board is not to elect them in the first place. Good luck with that.

I agree that ethics and professionalism are good things. But IMHO opinion, codes of conduct are window dressing unless there is some way to ensure that they're adhered to. Guess what, there already is! Typically bylaws and/or state laws state that board members serve at the pleasure of the membership and may be removed with or without cause via the annual election or a special meeting of the membership.

Codes of conduct are ultimately well-intended but are often vague and ineffective. Effective board members are already behaving ethically without being told to, and bad actors won't be stopped by a piece of paper. And unlike professional codes of conduct that can be tied to various licenses and sanctions, there really are no penalties for violating an HOA's code of conduct unless the behavior rises to the level where legal action is appropriate. Short of that, you may end up removed from the board if the membership can get their acts together and do something about you. Whoopee.

Some lawyers have also opined that signing a code of conduct may compromise a board member's ability to use the business judgement defense since the person has agreed ahead of time to act in specific ways regardless of the issues at hand.

The one benefit I see in these codes is their educational value. It's hard to believe that some homeowners and board members have never come across concepts such as conflict of interest, but it's true. The discussions around the proposed adoption of a code of conduct can help fill this gap. Now if we can convince homeowners not to vote for a candidate just because they're a dog walking buddy...

The last time I remember somebody being elected to the board was 20 years ago. We never get 33% quorum at any annual meeting so the bylaws let the existing board simply appoint their best friend or next door neighbor. This happens every year! What your saying sounds good in theory, but it's very hard to get a board removed if the community is so apathetic.

I want really specific R&Rs for the board. Explicitly stating the maximum fines that can be levied. In the past it has been all over the place from $100/day with no reduction at all once resolved to $15 a week (with a 75% reduction once they paid)

I want to limit when they can foreclose on a house by requiring they get input from the community. Perhaps a foreclosure committee approval, or only if they are behind on dues and not for architectural aesthetic reasons, still thinking of best way approach this.

I want to require they get HOA education, by requiring they go to a seminar or watch educational videos, etc.

Require they not vote on issues pertaining to their specific home/lot so no conflict of interest.

I want them to get approval (from a committee or a small percentage of community members) for spending on lawyers over a certain dollar amount or percentage so that our HOA is not terrorized by some over zealous violations natzi. I remember going to annual meetings where fines/violations/past dues were over $30K, now they are just a few thousand.

Basically I want specific numbers they must adhere to (or get approval from the community or committees or some group other then themselves to change ) and if not they can be removed easily by HOA members.

I want some balance to their power, currently there is none. The board could make a rule saying no alcohol, no swearing, etc. and it would be legal.

"I want to require they get HOA education, by requiring they go to a seminar or watch educational videos, etc."

If they do this they will undoubtedly learn that many of the things you want to do are not wise or can't be done. For that reason I think it's a good idea.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

If you have a committee overseeing the board, who oversees that committee? And who oversees them? Eventually you’ll run out of people to sit on committees.

Boards do have a lot of power. The way to reign them in is to have an active membership that votes them out of office if they aren’t acting in the best interests of the membership.

What happens if a majority of your neighbors don’t have a problem with the way the board is conducting themselves? Just because they aren’t doing what you want them to do doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveH35 on 05/29/2022 11:51 AM
Thad,

Some of your long list of wants, for example foreclosure requirements, should be spelled out by your Declaration / CC&Rs and codified by a collections policy. Requiring committee approval for foreclosure, unless written into your statutes, is probably inappropriate.

Requiring the Board to obtain the approval of a committee or of the homeowners to spend your annual budget on anything is probably unwise. You elect the Board for a reason. I think you're going a bit overboard here.

Regards,
Steve

not really they blew $42K on a project, told the community it would only cost $10K, then forgot to mention the install costs. Several years before that they blew $25K on another project.

They never think to ask that maybe the community would want lower dues instead of these projects that maybe 7% max of the community uses.

Only seeking approval for large projects, not small ones.

The governing documents are very vague on foreclosure, just giving the board the power to do so, without any specifics.
If the board can specify what color my house should be painted under R&R's then surely they should have some consistency between boards over much more important matters.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/29/2022 12:08 PM

If they do this they will undoubtedly learn that many of the things you want to do are not wise or can't be done. For that reason I think it's a good idea.

awesome we agree on something. I think the first course will be why trolling members on social media is a bad idea. you seem to be an expert in that, maybe you can put together the presentation.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 05/29/2022 12:10 PM
If you have a committee overseeing the board, who oversees that committee? And who oversees them? Eventually you’ll run out of people to sit on committees.

Boards do have a lot of power. The way to reign them in is to have an active membership that votes them out of office if they aren’t acting in the best interests of the membership.

What happens if a majority of your neighbors don’t have a problem with the way the board is conducting themselves? Just because they aren’t doing what you want them to do doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong.

the board oversees the committee . should be super easy for them to get a few people to agree with them to foreclose if needed.

majority of neighbors dont' even know what the board is doing

certainly I am not the only person who lives in an HOA where board policies vary drastically every time a board is changed. how is consitency maintained?

why are fines $100/day and then after the board changes they are $15 per day.

why do some boards seek to be inclusive and other boards seek to be a small click that runs everything.

i guess those in power are so myopic they cant' suggest simple solutions for common issues.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 05/29/2022 12:10 PM
If you have a committee overseeing the board, who oversees that committee? And who oversees them? Eventually you’ll run out of people to sit on committees.

Boards do have a lot of power. The way to reign them in is to have an active membership that votes them out of office if they aren’t acting in the best interests of the membership.

What happens if a majority of your neighbors don’t have a problem with the way the board is conducting themselves? Just because they aren’t doing what you want them to do doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong.

the board oversees the committee . should be super easy for them to get a few people to agree with them to foreclose if needed.

majority of neighbors dont' even know what the board is doing

certainly I am not the only person who lives in an HOA where board policies vary drastically every time a board is changed. how is consitency maintained?

why are fines $100/day and then after the board changes they are $15 per day.

why do some boards seek to be inclusive and other boards seek to be a small click that runs everything.

i guess those in power are so myopic they cant' suggest simple solutions for common issues.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 05/29/2022 12:10 PM
If you have a committee overseeing the board, who oversees that committee? And who oversees them? Eventually you’ll run out of people to sit on committees.

Boards do have a lot of power. The way to reign them in is to have an active membership that votes them out of office if they aren’t acting in the best interests of the membership.

What happens if a majority of your neighbors don’t have a problem with the way the board is conducting themselves? Just because they aren’t doing what you want them to do doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong.

Well said.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/29/2022 4:14 PM

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 05/29/2022 12:10 PM
If you have a committee overseeing the board, who oversees that committee? And who oversees them? Eventually you’ll run out of people to sit on committees.

Boards do have a lot of power. The way to reign them in is to have an active membership that votes them out of office if they aren’t acting in the best interests of the membership.

What happens if a majority of your neighbors don’t have a problem with the way the board is conducting themselves? Just because they aren’t doing what you want them to do doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong.

Well said.

yeah pissing away $42K by misleading people project would only cost $10K is ethical.
And a rule letting board members like myself make rules about personal conduct is so vauge it's ridiculous.

If every board had someone like me looking to reduce thier power instead of magnify it, the majority of HOA horror stories would not exsist.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/29/2022 12:08 PM

Posted By ThadC2 on 05/29/2022 10:35 AM

"I want to require they get HOA education, by requiring they go to a seminar or watch educational videos, etc."

If they do this they will undoubtedly learn that many of the things you want to do are not wise or can't be done. For that reason I think it's a good idea.

This is required by Florida statute. See below. You might want to read the rest of this section of the statutes because it does lay out a little bit of a code of conduct for directors required by law in Florida.

720.3033 Officers and directors.—
(1)(a) Within 90 days after being elected or appointed to the board, each director shall certify in writing to the secretary of the association that he or she has read the association’s declaration of covenants, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and current written rules and policies; that he or she will work to uphold such documents and policies to the best of his or her ability; and that he or she will faithfully discharge his or her fiduciary responsibility to the association’s members. Within 90 days after being elected or appointed to the board, in lieu of such written certification, the newly elected or appointed director may submit a certificate of having satisfactorily completed the educational curriculum administered by a division-approved education provider within 1 year before or 90 days after the date of election or appointment.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I hoped that a FL poster would come up with that requirement that I've heard about. So it's already required, Thad, as Lori shows. Will be the first on your Board to certify that you've met the requirements?

But how will you persuade other directors to comply? And how to you expect other directors to vote for some of the changes you want?

Our HOA actually has a policy written by our MC and handed out to new Boards every annual meeting after the election. It covers a Code of Ethics and decorum at meetings. It urges directors to prepare for meetings, to practice common courtesy, maintain the confidentiality of executive session, support board decisions, and such. Most of our Boards have conducted themselves properly anyway.

But what you seem to want to do, Thad, is to overrun one of the authority that you board has that are or might be in the rest of the CC&rs that you din't cite.

Say, how may directors are there? What size is your community?

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ThadC2 on 05/29/2022 2:08 PM

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 05/29/2022 12:10 PM
If you have a committee overseeing the board, who oversees that committee? And who oversees them? Eventually you’ll run out of people to sit on committees.

Boards do have a lot of power. The way to reign them in is to have an active membership that votes them out of office if they aren’t acting in the best interests of the membership.

What happens if a majority of your neighbors don’t have a problem with the way the board is conducting themselves? Just because they aren’t doing what you want them to do doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong.

the board oversees the committee . should be super easy for them to get a few people to agree with them to foreclose if needed.

majority of neighbors dont' even know what the board is doing

certainly I am not the only person who lives in an HOA where board policies vary drastically every time a board is changed. how is consitency maintained?

why are fines $100/day and then after the board changes they are $15 per day.

why do some boards seek to be inclusive and other boards seek to be a small click that runs everything.

i guess those in power are so myopic they cant' suggest simple solutions for common issues.

The boards oversee the committees that oversee them? That doesn't make sense.

Consistency is maintained by having written policies that are followed by each subsequent board and by having an active membership that is prepared to vote board members out of office if they do not adhere to established written policies.

Why do some boards seek to be inclusive and other boards seek to be a small clique that runs everything?

Because boards are not monolith. They are made of human beings. Why are some human beings ethical and considerate and some are not? These are bigger questions than this forum can address.

What you are suggesting is not a simple solution because it relies on the people whose power you seek to constrain agreeing to be constrained.

The problem with a "Code of Conduct" or similar is that people who know how to behave ethically don't need a policy to make them do so, and anyone who needs a policy to tell them to behave ethically is just going to violate that policy anyway.

If the majority of the membership doesn't know what the board is doing, frankly, nothing you do will change things. Boards can only be held accountable by a membership willing to vote them out.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I'll also point out that anything that takes the decision-making authority out of the board's hands and gives it to another group does two things:

* It undermines homeowners' ability to hold the board accountable for their actions since the buck now stops elsewhere.

* It only shifts the problem to a different group: what happens if the overseers don't behave ethically?

The human race has been trying to deal with the fact that some people behave badly since we evolved to the point where we could think about such things. It's the nature of this particular beast, and an HOA dealing with volunteers is not going to change that. As always, the ultimate solution will be alert homeowners who are prepared to throw out the bums when necessary.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/30/2022 8:39 AM
I'll also point out that anything that takes the decision-making authority out of the board's hands and gives it to another group does two things:

* It undermines homeowners' ability to hold the board accountable for their actions since the buck now stops elsewhere.

* It only shifts the problem to a different group: what happens if the overseers don't behave ethically?

The human race has been trying to deal with the fact that some people behave badly since we evolved to the point where we could think about such things. It's the nature of this particular beast, and an HOA dealing with volunteers is not going to change that. As always, the ultimate solution will be alert homeowners who are prepared to throw out the bums when necessary.

Well said.

MarkR21 (North Carolina)
Posts: 710

Posted:

What kind of clauses would you recommend be
put in the Board R&Rs?
How is consistency between boards kept
when the policies are so vague?
What else besides ethics, conflict of interest, and
required to read the governing documents
should be required?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Thad wants owners voting when a Member of the BOD needs to use the bathroom during a BOD Meeting.

CassyM (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

I'm sorry it's just like the battle of directors

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

This is for Thad and anyone else in Florida. We are always discussing interpreting and updating documents and how the Florida statutes apply. I just got an email from the big law firm that just settled on Surfside, starts with a "B" (not our lawyers - we fired them, not associated with me in any way so not advertising them) about a new webinar they are hosting on just those subjects. It's free. You might want to recommend that you and your board attend. You can find it on their website.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

What is undesirable? There are many an Association board members who are asses and has zero people skills. Members who some may find undesirable still have the right to run and be elected to the Board. The Association can amend the Declaration to prevent members who are not current on fees or have outstanding fines from running.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

You don't create Board Rules and Regulations, you create Board Resolutions. They should be keep in a binder and properly index. This is something the Board Secreatry should be in charge of updating and preserving.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/13/2022 11:56 AM
You don't create Board Rules and Regulations, you create Board Resolutions. They should be keep in a binder and properly index. This is something the Board Secreatry should be in charge of updating and preserving.

says your bylaws perhaps.

mine says the board can make R&R's for ANYONE, which include board members, try offering some info that actually furthers conversation, no one cares if it is called a rule or a resolution, look up the meaning, they are basically the same thing..

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

WOW, it's takes all kinds.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ThadC2 on 06/13/2022 12:10 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/13/2022 11:56 AM
You don't create Board Rules and Regulations, you create Board Resolutions. They should be keep in a binder and properly index. This is something the Board Secreatry should be in charge of updating and preserving.

says your bylaws perhaps.

mine says the board can make R&R's for ANYONE, which include board members, try offering some info that actually furthers conversation, no one cares if it is called a rule or a resolution, look up the meaning, they are basically the same thing..

thad,

i don't have bylaws, i do this for a living. there is a document called board member toolkit, you might want to educate yourself.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I've been noticing lately that Thad often makes sweeping generalizations that are sometimes incorrect. So, thad, you assert your assn. bylaws say the board can make rules for anyone. Please cite the exact wording re: "Rules for anyone." Does it say "rules about anything?"

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/13/2022 12:40 PM
I've been noticing lately that Thad often makes sweeping generalizations that are sometimes incorrect. So, thad, you assert your assn. bylaws say the board can make rules for anyone. Please cite the exact wording re: "Rules for anyone." Does it say "rules about anything?"

this was posted on thad's original post, (h) Do anything necessary or desirable, including, but notlimited to, establishing any rules or regulations which the ASsociation deems necessary to carry out the purpose of the Association and set forth herein or as permitted by law.

What he doesn't realize is that it depends on which document it came from, and also that there has to be something in the CCRs for them to reference. It only seems like some document gave a board complete dominion over it's sheep, but it only seems that way.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I've noticed that too, Max. So, Thad, is your citation actually from your CC&Rs and not your Bylaws? Or are they somehow the same document?

You above citation says "...establishing any rules or regulations which the ASsociation deems necessary to carry out the purpose of the
Association and[sic??] set forth herein or as permitted by law."

What IS the propose of your HOA according to your CC&Rs, Thad? Exact quote, please.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/13/2022 1:30 PM
I've noticed that too, Max. So, Thad, is your citation actually from your CC&Rs and not your Bylaws? Or are they somehow the same document?

You above citation says "...establishing any rules or regulations which the ASsociation deems necessary to carry out the purpose of the
Association and[sic??] set forth herein or as permitted by law."

What IS the propose of your HOA according to your CC&Rs, Thad? Exact quote, please.

I've noticed instead of helping most posters with their actual questions you two like to get off on tangents. start a new topic about the difference between a resolution and R&R's if you want' but dont' expect me to help you derail my own topic about something I have no interest discussing. Please admins update this software so I can just ignore certain posters.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/13/2022 12:47 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/13/2022 12:40 PM
I've been noticing lately that Thad often makes sweeping generalizations that are sometimes incorrect. So, thad, you assert your assn. bylaws say the board can make rules for anyone. Please cite the exact wording re: "Rules for anyone." Does it say "rules about anything?"

this was posted on thad's original post, (h) Do anything necessary or desirable, including, but notlimited to, establishing any rules or regulations which the ASsociation deems necessary to carry out the purpose of the Association and set forth herein or as permitted by law.

What he doesn't realize is that it depends on which document it came from, and also that there has to be something in the CCRs for them to reference. It only seems like some document gave a board complete dominion over it's sheep, but it only seems that way.

not what I asked about, but go ahead have fun talking about it or just make a new thread about how R&R's and CCR's relate.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/13/2022 12:28 PM

Posted By ThadC2 on 06/13/2022 12:10 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/13/2022 11:56 AM
You don't create Board Rules and Regulations, you create Board Resolutions. They should be keep in a binder and properly index. This is something the Board Secreatry should be in charge of updating and preserving.

says your bylaws perhaps.

mine says the board can make R&R's for ANYONE, which include board members, try offering some info that actually furthers conversation, no one cares if it is called a rule or a resolution, look up the meaning, they are basically the same thing..

thad,

i don't have bylaws, i do this for a living. there is a document called board member toolkit, you might want to educate yourself.

maybe you should get a new line of work. it seems you hate your day job so much , you have to come here and snark out to total strangers to get some passive agressive out of your system. sad, cause a person with your knowledge has the capaicty to actually be helpful.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ThadC2 on 06/13/2022 1:56 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/13/2022 12:28 PM

Posted By ThadC2 on 06/13/2022 12:10 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 06/13/2022 11:56 AM
You don't create Board Rules and Regulations, you create Board Resolutions. They should be keep in a binder and properly index. This is something the Board Secreatry should be in charge of updating and preserving.

says your bylaws perhaps.

mine says the board can make R&R's for ANYONE, which include board members, try offering some info that actually furthers conversation, no one cares if it is called a rule or a resolution, look up the meaning, they are basically the same thing..

thad,

i don't have bylaws, i do this for a living. there is a document called board member toolkit, you might want to educate yourself.

it seems you hate your day job so much

all the way to the bank!

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

not surprising, people that do jobs for the money often miss purpose in thier lives.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ThadC2 on 06/13/2022 1:59 PM
not surprising, people that do jobs for the money often miss purpose in thier lives.

must be old chinese proverb.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/13/2022 12:40 PM
I've been noticing lately that Thad often makes sweeping generalizations that are sometimes incorrect. So, thad, you assert your assn. bylaws say the board can make rules for anyone. Please cite the exact wording re: "Rules for anyone." Does it say "rules about anything?"

geeze I highlight it in bright orange and seems your eyeballs can't find it still. Maybe i need to increase the font size too?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ThadC2 on 06/13/2022 2:25 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/13/2022 12:40 PM
I've been noticing lately that Thad often makes sweeping generalizations that are sometimes incorrect. So, thad, you assert your assn. bylaws say the board can make rules for anyone. Please cite the exact wording re: "Rules for anyone." Does it say "rules about anything?"

geeze I highlight it in bright orange and seems your eyeballs can't find it still. Maybe i need to increase the font size too?

No, but you really need to calm the hell down. Why on earth do you come here asking for suggestions, and then proceed to knock down virtually everything that's suggested to you? You said yourself you're a new board member, and frankly it shows because you seem incapable of responding intelligently to anything, but resort to putdowns and snarky comments. That's so middle school - you do know you can accept some, none or all the suggestions made here -we don't live in your community, so we won't have to live with the consequences, but you and your neighbors will.

If you can get your fellow board members to go along with whatever you dream up (or pull out of your behind), congratulations. You might want to remember you're only one vote and if you don't make your case instead of jumping up and down like my 18-month-old niece every time someone disagrees with you, they will vote it down, and then what?

To wit, board resolutions CAN be used to establish, amend or drop community rules. Here's how one website put it "Homeowner associations (HOA) often write resolutions for policies that will affect its owners’ rights and obligations. Resolutions for homeowner associations may include rules that apply to common property including recreational facilities, parking, and other shared spaces." In other words, you want this stuff to stand up in court, and when you take the time to document what you do and why, it can make a big difference. I don't agree with Max on everything, but he's absolutely right about this.

To wit, you want to mandate board member education - it's a nice idea, but what will you do if one of the members gives you the finger and tells you to kick rocks ("I don't have time for that!) You can't kick him/her off the board - only homeowners can recall or vote out that member. I'm sure your documents have something in them about board elections and possibly resignations and recalls - have you read it? In fact, are you reading your documents at all?

You'll probably ignore this too (I don't really care, but will put it down in case it's useful to someone else). I believe a good board member starts with being the type of neighbor he/she would like to live next door or across the street from. If you want a board member to have a clue as to how HOAs work and what the best practices might be, what's wrong with YOU finding out what resources are out there and take advantage of them so you'll have some insight on how you can best serve your community? There are people who won't read anything, but they'll look at how you approach the job and might be so inclined to copy you - and maybe that'll reduce the possibility that a "loser" will wind up elected. Perhaps if YOU brought education resources to the board, they might take a look and then you can all discuss what would work best in your community. Isn't that the point?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 06/13/2022 3:16 PM

Posted By ThadC2 on 06/13/2022 2:25 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 06/13/2022 12:40 PM
I've been noticing lately that Thad often makes sweeping generalizations that are sometimes incorrect. So, thad, you assert your assn. bylaws say the board can make rules for anyone. Please cite the exact wording re: "Rules for anyone." Does it say "rules about anything?"

geeze I highlight it in bright orange and seems your eyeballs can't find it still. Maybe i need to increase the font size too?

No, but you really need to calm the hell down. Why on earth do you come here asking for suggestions, and then proceed to knock down virtually everything that's suggested to you? You said yourself you're a new board member, and frankly it shows because you seem incapable of responding intelligently to anything, but resort to putdowns and snarky comments. That's so middle school - you do know you can accept some, none or all the suggestions made here -we don't live in your community, so we won't have to live with the consequences, but you and your neighbors will.

If you can get your fellow board members to go along with whatever you dream up (or pull out of your behind), congratulations. You might want to remember you're only one vote and if you don't make your case instead of jumping up and down like my 18-month-old niece every time someone disagrees with you, they will vote it down, and then what?

To wit, board resolutions CAN be used to establish, amend or drop community rules. Here's how one website put it "Homeowner associations (HOA) often write resolutions for policies that will affect its owners’ rights and obligations. Resolutions for homeowner associations may include rules that apply to common property including recreational facilities, parking, and other shared spaces." In other words, you want this stuff to stand up in court, and when you take the time to document what you do and why, it can make a big difference. I don't agree with Max on everything, but he's absolutely right about this.

To wit, you want to mandate board member education - it's a nice idea, but what will you do if one of the members gives you the finger and tells you to kick rocks ("I don't have time for that!) You can't kick him/her off the board - only homeowners can recall or vote out that member. I'm sure your documents have something in them about board elections and possibly resignations and recalls - have you read it? In fact, are you reading your documents at all?

You'll probably ignore this too (I don't really care, but will put it down in case it's useful to someone else). I believe a good board member starts with being the type of neighbor he/she would like to live next door or across the street from. If you want a board member to have a clue as to how HOAs work and what the best practices might be, what's wrong with YOU finding out what resources are out there and take advantage of them so you'll have some insight on how you can best serve your community? There are people who won't read anything, but they'll look at how you approach the job and might be so inclined to copy you - and maybe that'll reduce the possibility that a "loser" will wind up elected. Perhaps if YOU brought education resources to the board, they might take a look and then you can all discuss what would work best in your community. Isn't that the point?

Excellent advice!!!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Some nameless document of Thad's says the board can, "Adopt and publish rules and regulations governing the use of the Common Area and facilities, and the personal conduct of the Members, their guests thereon..." He then whines that "It gives the board of directors pretty much absolute power. Even the power to regulate the PERSONAL CONDUCT OF MEMBERS. In the latter, he fails to mention Members conduct on the common areas which is, indeed, in his orange. No, he makes it into "absolute power."

Thad wants to make rules about directors' conduct that support the "purpose" of the Association as spelled out in some orange governing document (that he won't or cannot) name. To help with such a goal, we need to know what the purposes is as stated in probably his CC&Rs. I'm actually thinking he doesn't know what the purpose is of his HOA.

Shelia's right on target as she so often is. Her remarks come from many years serving on the Board of her HOA possibly with many types of fellow board members.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I suppose we should be happy you didn't write this in all caps (the equivalent of shouting on the web). And look, you wrote your response in color! How cute.

Now, how far along are you in drafting the documents and are enforceable since this conversation began? Are you discussing anything with the rest of the board?

Whatever dude - I'm done with this.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Thad

Grow up. Start acting as an adult instead of a petulant child.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

I find it hilarious that the unnamed, faceless moderator has taken to deleting entire threads and editing my posts almost exclusively, despite the fact that there are links to YouTube, company names being named, etc. all of which amount to "advertising" in so much as any link I've ever posted.

I'm not here to copy and paste information from other sources to a thread. It's a waste of my time and that's why I've decided to spend substantially less time here. The so-called moderation of this forum is a joke and has no actual connection with the forum rules.