uh oh,, more attempts to charge my account

I just received a bill from the association..

back when i was trying to get clarification and review of the association records after the election. I cc'd the association attorney.

The attorney never responded to me.

I just received a bill for 165 dollars that says from the company that does our acccounting. which says

we have been instructed to inform you that the ecnlosed invoice reflects charges that are not the the responsiblity of the association.. Your owner account has been billed for $165.00

The invoiced attached was sent to the association via the association attorney..

attorney's description.. review two unsolicitied emials received from laskas regarding request to review books and records. review base file regarding policy for review of books and records, draft and send emails to the managing agent, property manager and accounting manager at Crea**** Pro***** Managment company.

This is just another attempt to bully me and prevent me from seeking transparency.

I'm not going to freak out. I believe this is an unauthorized charge. I'm asking for either confirmation . If so , i presume your advice would be to send a response denying the charge?

Copying the attorney was your first mistake. Your beef is with the board, so your correspondence should have been directed at them, not the atto, because he/she doesn't work for you. You were a board member once upon a time - did you forget the attorney charges for his/her time???? It doesn't matter if it's an email or appearing at a trial on the association's behalf - someone has to pay the piper

And now you've pulled the attorney into this continuing pissing match. if the attorney is expecting you to pay this and you refuse to, they can and will can come after you for the money and $165 can balloon very quickly. Better figure Out a way to square this with the attorney because the board will say not our problem - she's the one who sent the emails - how did she expect the attorney to respond?

So good luck in whatever you do. And once again, I have t ask - what the hell is your end game in all this? After all these skirmishes, have you accomplished ANYTHING? It's great that you got more people to participate in the last election- maybe you need to have them take up the mantle because no one's listening to you anymore. They may have a more effective approach without your baggage - If you get what you want in the end, it won't matter If you spearheaded the thing.

If you keep wondering about the legal bafflegab surrounding, why not drop the hammer, sue them once and for all and we'll see who wins

I'd go with Augustin's note. Perfect. Furthermore, I would not expect an attorney to spend $165 of time on anything without the Board's consent unless previously agreed in writing (for example, to collect on a debt).

Regards,
Steve

augustine,

thanks for the outline. can i ask. does the association have any right to charge an owner for cc'ing the attorney in official requests to review association records.

also.. does you answer change if, in secret executive sessions, the board decided to start charging me for the cc'ing the attorney. The minutes have never been published. If the board had voted and decided to start doing this, wouldn't there be a legal requirement for the board to notify all owners of the new policy before it could take affect.

I have your COA's governing documents. Unsurprisingly, neither the Declaration nor Bylaws have a provision for the Association to bill you for its attorney fees under these circumstances. Nor does state law permit you to be billed for the COA's attorney fees unless maybe this dispute went to court. See TPC 82.

This practice (of billing owners for attorney fees when the governing docs do not allow it) unfortunately is a fairly common, and sometimes effective, tool of harassment with HOAs/COAs nationwide.

I agree with this reasoning as well, with the caveat that even with advance notice of this "policy," the Board would be violating its own Declaration and Bylaws.

I agree with most of your reasoning in your second post to this thread as well.

But more importantly, this feels like a pissing contest.

Answer the Board with a short note. Hopefully this does not blow up. But it probably will. The COA may very well force you to lawyer up to get the bill removed. Not because the COA is right. But because it has all the money in the world to harass you and drive you out of this condo, and do so legally.

Bill,

Thank you for your response. This board has repeatedly attempted to avoid fulfilling it's legal obligations to the association and owners. I have repeatedly attempted to notify owners and notify the board of the legal requirments for all actions of the association. Including notice requirements and maintenance requirements.

As Steve said, The attorney is not my attorney. The attorney has never responded to any of the emails they were cc'd . However, I can say unequivocally, based on actions of the board after I emailed the board regarding the illegality of what they were doing , the attorney most certainly told the board they coudln't do what they were trying to do.

The situation is way beyond asking the board to play nice. The problem is the property manager(also a board member) and the rest of the board unwilling to stop him from mismanaging the property.

I know the attorney is under no obligation to respond to my emails. However, if there is no rule or policy in our documents that prohibits an owner from cc'ing the association attorney. what's the big deal.

bill,, what do you mean noone is blocking transparency or harassing me.

the board is still not filing the minutes of the board meetings in a corporate meeting book(in person or digital). The minutes are being taken, but every one of my requests for minutes of the meetings is either ignored, or i'm told the minutes need to be adjusted.(How can minutes from 2021 still not be available.!)

The property manager tried to have me arrested when i spent my own money and time planting an area in the common courtyard that the was hard dirt and still never property restored after harvey.

When that didn't work, he mischaracterized my voluntary contribution to the association to the board. He claimed i was damaging the common area . Not a single board member attempted to verify what the property manager was saying. My account was charged $750 without notice for damages that did not occur.

The property has failed have repairs completed in a timely manner. If he doesn't think they are important, it doesn't get done. Screw the declaration and responsiblities of the association.

Bill, If i honestly owed a charge, I would pay it.

I have no problem paying what I owe. An example, When the maintenance fees were raised, my attempt to change the autopay on my bank website did not complete. I didn't know. So I was underpaying for 2 months. When I realized this, i contacted the accounting manager and asked for my account balance and 2022 history. When i didn't adjust my online auto pay for the third month, I was assessed a late charge. I realized this was my fault, though unintentional. I triple verified that my autopay was adjusted and paid the late fee.

I'm not going to pay fines and fees that are being applied to my account to bully me.

I will disagree with BillH. While the email may have been copied to the attorney, either the PM or the Board gave the attorney authority to do something that then caused a bill of $165.00. The association is liable for the bill, NOT the homeowner, no matter what the attorney, board or PM says.

... and I really loathe the line above.

AFAIC there's nothing "authorized" at all about cc'ing an attorney. One may have a legal write to cc whomever, but "authorized" is not the correct word to use when one does so.

ok , thanks for the correction augustin..

second., actually regarding the unauthorized charge for turning off the water when there was an emergency repair required. that hasn't actually been removed. the accounting company did acknowledge receiving my dispute with the charge which thus stops any further action on that charge. She then said she would send my dispute to the board.

The board tells the accounting company what to do, the accounting manager just follows instructions, unless it would be a violation of law.

The board ignores my written dispute and has not taken up discussion. I do not think they intend to every acknowledge my dispute. So the fees will stay there until the unit is sold. unless i have a way to force them to remove the unauthorized charges without having to hire a lawyer, I'll just wait until next year, if a new board is elected. Then i'll bring it back up with all my documentation.

augustine,

I'm trying to think about how I could avoid having to hire an attorney to get the charges removed.

Would it be possible for me to go ahead and pay the charges under protest and then sue the association in small claims court?

or is that likely to go nowhere.

I just read the texas small claims court rules and procedures.

I believe i could file for the return of money that was charged by the association without authority to do so.

Basically, unjust enrichment on the associations part.

or does paying the money imply I acknowledge the validity.

I fear the risk of you going up against an attorney and the COA then finding a covenant clause or statute section that would force you to pay the COA's attorney fees for the litigation.

For example, there is some question as to whether the money the COA is billing you is collectable as an assessment. The COA attorney will likely argue it is. Which may very well mean that, if you go up against an attorney and the judge says you owe the assessment, then the judge might, depending on the statutes' and covenants' wording, order you to pay the COA's attorney fees.

Going into litigation against a licensed attorney on this matter is a whole different ball game from calling out the board on obvious violations of the covenants and statutes now and then. No one at hoatalk forum is up to it.

You indicate you do not want to pay an attorney thousands of dollars. I think there is a strong argument for paying the COA what it claims it owes you and writing it off as lawful extortion.

AFAIC, and hackneyed but true, courtroom battles are rarely about fairness. They are about who has the most money.

Well, I disagree.

In my opinion this situation is no different than one in which Laska's vehicle damages a portion of the common area and the Association renders a bill for the remediation. Laska, in my example, caused the association to incur an expense.

Laska was not authorized to contact the attorney by cc: or any other method, and created an expense to the association in doing so.

The association bylaws almost certainly state the Board is authorized to incur expenses on behalf of the association. They do not state an owner or some other party may do so. Take this another step (and I have a vague memory of something like this in another Laska post): Laska is dissatisfied with the performance of the landscape contractor and arranges with that contractor to remediate the issue without obtaining Board approval. The contractor does so and bills the association. As I stated in my original response, I would seek approval from the Board to rebill the contractor charge to Laska since it was not arranged for or approved by the Board.

Laska is a former member of the Board, and for all the attorney knows, has been reelected or reappointed. I see nothing in Laska's post which indicates the attorney was informed the cc: message emanated from a person who is a member of the association only and who is not authorized to contact the attorney (or other contractors, except for personal/private work billed to the owner). I use the language 'authorized' deliberately as it is made clear in the rules of the associations we manage an owner is not authorized to contact the association attorney without prior authorization and will be billed for charges incurred for unauthorized contact.

What I do see in a subsequent post is a long list of issues, which may be valid, Laska has with the Board and the Association. As others have stated, the issue in the OP in this message string is the billing of $165.00 for the attorney time. The other issues are not germane nor are they justification for incurring an expense to the association without Board approval.

My interpretation of the cc: to the attorney is Laska's frustration with the Board and Association is coming to a full boil (again); the cc: to the attorney was when the temperature reached 25 degrees below boiling.

Augustin

If Laska's attorney should contact the association attorney, of course the association should not bill Laska personally for the charges incurred through the contact. Laska and every other owner may, however, wind up paying the legal expenses.

If Laska wishes to contact the association attorney, then do so through one's own attorney. I don't think Laska understands the role and responsibility of the association attorney.

Let the court ultimately decide which party, if either, pays the expenses.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no reasonable agreement on this subject we can reach. Let's adjourn for a libation of choice.

What surprises me greatly is the action of the attorney. We have this precise situation taking place with an owner in a client association. When the client first contacted the attorney, he asked us what we would like to have done about the contact. We told him to respond that he cannot provide advice to the owner and she should seek her own counsel. He did not charge the association or the owner.

This owner has subsequently contacted the insurance agent and the insurance companies which underwrite the policies. She poses hypotheticals which seek a determination if the association liability or damage policies will cover scenarios in which she alleges a director dripped paint on a sidewalk and damaged it or a scenario in which the D&O is triggered by an incident and whether or not the D&O will cover the board.

Hence, my very strong feelings and thoughts on this subject.

Coming clean:

Note: my above posting is with the expectation that the attorney is the registered agent.

However, if they are not the registered agent, then you should most definitely pay any attorney fees as the attorney doesn't work for you.

pat,, no the associaion did not share the attorney's response with me.

Max, exactly my point. Basically,

I don't ever start off cc'ing the attorneyh.

If the board and or association is not abiding by the governing documents. I first email just the property manager. I don't get a response. i send a 2nd request via email and cc the board.

I again get no answer. If the issue is one which involves the board failing to follow the bylaws and declaration regarding notice, elections, charging owners, fines. etc. then i send a third notice and cc the attorney.

by the way,

if any of you are interested, go watch this video.

this is the kind of response and treatment I get from the current board.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/05/25/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-beto-orourke-interrupt-greg-abbott-sot-vpx.cnn

augustine,

If i pay the unauthorized charges assessed to my account, what's to prevent the property manager from continueing to pull this crap.

As i stated, because i submitted my written denial of the validity of the charge , the accounting company will not be adding on late fees and will not puruse collection action until the board actually responds to my denial letter.

I.e. there is no legal collection action the board can proceed with , without abiding by the statues which require proper notice, proper response to my response. etc.

Well if you stop contacting the HOA lawyer and racking up charges then it would stop. The HOA lawyer is NOT your lawyer...

The owner who receives this bill asks your Board: Under what provision of the governing documents are you assessing me? What is your response? Same as BillH10's?

The COA incurred costs because the board chose to instruct the attorney to respond to an email. Their attorney; their legal advice; their bill.

Suppose citizen Smith looks up a certain attorney named O'Hara on the internet. Smith and O'Hara have never met before. Smith writes attorney O'Hara with a legal question. Attorney O'Hara responds that Smith should do xyz. Can attorney O'Hara then bill citizen Smith and ask a court to enforce payment?

WHAT? No. NO. NOOOO! There are no damages and there's certainly no right to send an owner a legal fee just because they wrote to the association's attorney.

I've written to attorneys on more than one occasion and never received a bill for exactly the same reason Laska should not have received a bill: there's no authority to bill me AND it's not the right thing to do AND AND AND so many other reasons. Yikes.

Regards,
Steve