security camera installation

Started by LaskaS • 39 replies • 734 views

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LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

hi

I know the board has a right to install security cameras.

however, adding security cameras is a capital improvement, addition, alternation of the common elements.

if the price is above 25,000, our bylaws state that the owners need to approve the addition.

The current board approved 25,000 just to stay under the number requiring a vote. It turns out the orignal cost was for the equipment only, it did not include the cost to install and run lines.

this was a purposeful attempt to circumvent having to get owner approval.

It's not that i don't want security cameras. Its that the continued attempt to get around following the intent of our documents and declaration , that's the definition of acting in bad faith.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Laska

Think it is time to move while the market is still hot.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 05/19/2022 5:59 PM
hi
I know the board has a right to install security cameras.
however, adding security cameras is a capital improvement, addition, alternation of the common elements. ... if the price is above 25,000, our bylaws state that the owners need to approve the addition.

The current board approved 25,000 just to stay under the number requiring a vote. It turns out the orignal cost was for the equipment only, it did not include the cost to install and run lines. ... this was a purposeful attempt to circumvent having to get owner approval.

It's not that i don't want security cameras. Its that the continued attempt to get around following the intent of our documents and declaration , that's the definition of acting in bad faith.

Just want to say two things: 1) surveillance cameras offer surveillance, not security and 2) if this is all truly the case, you can certainly file suit. There is some capital improvement case law you can review on the matter.

Regards,
Steve

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Is this really a capital expense? I am not fully convinced security cameras are. Maybe if they were already installed by the developer and part of the HOA responsibilities. However, many security camera systems tend to be added on later in the HOA/COA life. Which often come out of the operating budget or special assessment to pay for.

Are you going to complain about everything the board does? I mean they ONLY been in office for like 2 months now after the last election. Good lord they have not had the time to breath before your down their throats.

Former HOA President

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 05/19/2022 5:59 PM
if the price is above 25,000, [the Declaration] state[s] that the owners need to approve the addition. The current board approved 25,000 just to stay under the number requiring a vote. It turns out the orignal cost was for the equipment only, it did not include the cost to install and run lines.

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 08/18/2021 9:07 PM
Hi, i have attached the relevant portion of our condominiums declaration below.

20. Additions, Alterations and Improvements of General
and Limited Common Elements. There shall be no additions,
alterations or improvements of or to the general and limited common
elements requiring an expenditure by the Association in excess of
TWENTY-FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($25,000.00) in any one (1) calendar
year without prior approval of fifty-one percent (51%) of the
owners. Such limitation shall not be applicable to the replace-
ment, repair, maintenance or restoration of any common element.

I think a HOA attorney would argue that only the cost of the material itself is relevant. Not that this would hold up in court.

I am not saying that what the Board did is right or wrong. I am saying that I do not think this is a battle worth undertaking.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 4:30 AM
Is this really a capital expense? I am not fully convinced security cameras are. Maybe if they were already installed by the developer and part of the HOA responsibilities. However, many security camera systems tend to be added on later in the HOA/COA life. Which often come out of the operating budget or special assessment to pay for.

Are you going to complain about everything the board does? I mean they ONLY been in office for like 2 months now after the last election. Good lord they have not had the time to breath before your down their throats.

Well if she doesn't complain about them, it'll be the property manager - oh, wait, there IS another conversation on the property manager's apparently failure to solicit bids......

Someone said in one of these conversations it may be time for Laska to consider moving, since it appears nothing anyone does in her community will be satisfactory to her. I think that's a valid point. It's a shame too, because some of these questions ARE valid, but now I don't think anyone's listening to her because of the constant nitpicking and micromanaging.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Agreed Shiela. The paint has not even dried yet and it has been non stop questioning of everything. It me 2 years to get things straightened out in our HOA. That is a typical time frame for many HOA and new boards. It was the 3rd year was able to get things to a smooth operating level we could address many of the items on Laska's growing list. Things do not happen over night. Plus have to consult the documents first before making a decision. Memorizing them is not necessarily the same as knowing them to make decisions. There are always different facets and angles everyone will bring to the table

I am at the point where just can not do it anymore. Imagine the board, PM, and neighbors are too.

Former HOA President

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 6:08 AM
Agreed Shiela. The paint has not even dried yet and it has been non stop questioning of everything. It me 2 years to get things straightened out in our HOA. That is a typical time frame for many HOA and new boards. It was the 3rd year was able to get things to a smooth operating level we could address many of the items on Laska's growing list. Things do not happen over night. Plus have to consult the documents first before making a decision. Memorizing them is not necessarily the same as knowing them to make decisions. There are always different facets and angles everyone will bring to the table

I am at the point where just can not do it anymore. Imagine the board, PM, and neighbors are too.

A CIC Board, CAM and management company are NEVER entitled to take two to three years to "figure things out" while violating the contractual obligations of the declaration / CC&Rs and the governmental authority of local ordinances, and state and federal statutes. That pathway is a shining example of the complacent abandonment of duty of care and/or fiduciary duty and the ethical and professional standards established for these entities.

This thread is one more testament to WHY folks loathe CICs. The Board, manager and management company have essentially ONE job: make reasonable decisions based on the written governance applicable to the community.

Regards,
Steve

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So Steve you know all this in 2 months? Give people a little bit of time to get situated before telling them there jobs.

Former HOA President

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 05/20/2022 5:06 AM

Do you think if she moved to another association she would not question their every action?

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

The first thing that comes to mind about this post is the cost of the project. We have no idea how many cameras that are being quoted but 25K for equipment is a crazy amount unless it is over 40 cameras.

Melissa,
This is definitely a Capitol Improvement expense. The Cameras will become an Asset of the HOA and also need to be added to the Reserves for future replacement estimates.

My current HOA Leased a Camera System prior to me joining (Terrible Idea to Lease)

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

No one suggested that and I've read a number of conversations from Laska where it's always the same theme - the property manager and/or board isn't doing this or that right - I believe this is the third property manager she's complained about.

You and I both know people come to HOA boards with varying degrees of experience or none at all, so it can take people time to learn. Developers appoint people to the first board before transitioning to resident control but don't educate them on anything. Former board members leave - some on good terms, some not, and the knowledge goes with them. Depending on why the departure occurred, some might serve as resources to the newbies, while others say "figure it out your damn self if you're so smart." I've only seen a few instances of people who took the time to put together a board member's handbook that could serve as a resource - my community had one, but I never got a copy and so much of what I learned came from talking and listening to people, as well as attending CAI seminars in my area.

Property managers also need a little time to get to know the community and it doesn't help when board members aren't clear on what they want, contradicting each other or try to pressure the property manager into doing something unethical or downright illegal - and they they blame the property manager when things go to shit.

I'm sure YOUR knowledge of HOAs didn't drop out of the sky and bingo, it was all crystal clear to you. And let's face it, in this country, we seem to have a weird attitude towards education - we know it's necessary, but we don't always trust the experts or even people with some experience (why else did people actually believe they could shove UV lights up the poop chute to treat COVID?)

You can do things in a rush or you can take a wee bit of time to understand what the hell is going on before going in full tilt to change it. It's amazing how different things actually look and function when you're on the inside looking out.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

As a property manager, if it took me three years to figure something out, I would be out of a job.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

We were self managed. I was not talking about the finicial side of things. I was talking about getting things in order of getting back to the rules. Getting things to run as they should. Including enforcement of paying dues, violation enforcement, and projects.

Former HOA President

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 8:23 AM
So Steve you know all this in 2 months? Give people a little bit of time to get situated before telling them there jobs.

In the world of reality, where statutes and covenants matter, a lack of continuity due to poor management (by a board, by a CAM, by a property manager, or by a management company or other vendor) does not excuse ongoing poor judgment.

In the case of this particular thread, the OP has expressed what appears to be a valid concern about the Board violating the covenants related to a capital improvement. There's no excuse. Who cares about about any other threads? Oh, let's judge this OP for having multiple concerns? Get outta here...

Thousands of hours of experience (not two months) have taught me lessons like: it's never OK to excuse inappropriate governance. Do some situations take time to correct, yes? Making appropriate decisions about capital spending is not one of them.

Regards,
Steve

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 11:11 AM
We were self managed. I was not talking about the finicial side of things. I was talking about getting things in order of getting back to the rules. Getting things to run as they should. Including enforcement of paying dues, violation enforcement, and projects.

Being self managed, you're really not accountable to anyone. Who oversees a self managed board, the owners. That's a laugh.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

The board skirted the law or covenants by not including the total price of the project which will include labor. Being this is a long term asset, how would address the price when adding it to the reserve study, equipment only?

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 05/20/2022 8:49 AM
The first thing that comes to mind about this post is the cost of the project. We have no idea how many cameras that are being quoted but 25K for equipment is a crazy amount unless it is over 40 cameras.

Melissa,
This is definitely a Capitol Improvement expense. The Cameras will become an Asset of the HOA and also need to be added to the Reserves for future replacement estimates.

My current HOA Leased a Camera System prior to me joining (Terrible Idea to Lease)

I’m curious: why do you think it’s a terrible idea to lease?

(I’m genuinely curious. It was a decision made without me years ago, but my neighborhood has a leased system of 16 cams in the pool area, it runs ~$160/month. It’s generally seemed like a good deal to me. What am I missing?)

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Bill,
The devil is in the details. Here are some of my reasons. I have installed systems over the years and maintained our system in Ca. for the last 5 years I was on the board. I did it for free as a volunteer. There are very few issues and a simply glass cleaner every season makes all the difference.

1) Cameras are very resilient and can last 8 to 10 years in many cases.
2) Leases are always 3,4 or 5 year terms. Meaning you are making a desision that multiple boards will have to live with till the end of the term.
3) In our case the Lease was sold to a third party and has no option to buy out at the end of the lease. Crazy that the big company that begins with an A would do that but they did in our case.
4) The vendor gets paid up front and the services has been terrible since then.
5) Camera pricing keeps coming down and quality going up.
6) The reason why most people lease is because they don't have the cash to pay upfront. HOAs should always have the funds to avoid this situations.

These are just a few reason why I recommend against leases.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Bill,
It looks like you have a pretty good deal at the $160.00 number. The lease they sign was 5 years at $260.00 monthly for 13 cameras.

JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

obvious board is abusing their powers. i suggest you send a letter threatening to sue, unless the project is voted upon.
some states require that HOA's return excess funds to the owners, might be a solution of what to do with the money.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Justin... Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. There are better ways of handling it. Laska has a loooooong history of complaining about their HOA. I am done at this point of listening to it. I am actually feeling bad for their HOA at this point... That is saying a lot...

Former HOA President

JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 3:02 PM
Justin... Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. There are better ways of handling it. Laska has a loooooong history of complaining about their HOA. I am done at this point of listening to it. I am actually feeling bad for their HOA at this point... That is saying a lot...

LOL, meanwhile 99% of HOA boards turn to the courts to solve thier issues with homeowners.

Lets not get off topic. I dont' care if you don't like the poster. They asked a legitimate question about an HOA board that is clearly doing shady illegal activities. I gave them a legal sound answer. You are a grown up, scroll on by if you dont' like it.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Laska has every right to complain about their HOA and you have no experience in saying otherwise.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JustinT5 on 05/20/2022 2:09 PM
obvious board is abusing their powers. i suggest you send a letter threatening to sue, unless the project is voted upon.
some states require that HOA's return excess funds to the owners, might be a solution of what to do with the money.

That's sound legal advise. What planet did you drop in from?

JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 05/20/2022 3:49 PM

That's sound legal advise. What planet did you drop in from?

ok , what do you suggest? or you just here to shoot down other ideas?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I made my suggestion, as it is the first comment underneath the original post.

JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 05/20/2022 4:25 PM
I made my suggestion, as it is the first comment underneath the original post.

LOL, moving was your advice? and you have the balls to criticize my advice? might want to look in the mirror my friend.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JustinT5 on 05/20/2022 4:42 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 05/20/2022 4:25 PM
I made my suggestion, as it is the first comment underneath the original post.

LOL, moving was your advice? and you have the balls to criticize my advice? might want to look in the mirror my friend.

Mine was based on experience, you're was pulled from your....backside

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

My backside of experience... I did the job for 3 years... Plus been in Top management for years in my "real" life.

Former HOA President

JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 4:49 PM
My backside of experience... I did the job for 3 years... Plus been in Top management for years in my "real" life.

maybe you need to move your advice to a new forum. if you think that's good advice. I dont' care about your credentials.

JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JustinT5 on 05/20/2022 4:51 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 4:49 PM
My backside of experience... I did the job for 3 years... Plus been in Top management for years in my "real" life.

maybe you need to move your advice to a new forum. if you think that's good advice. I dont' care about your credentials.

that was directed at Max B4, not you, sorry.

JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JustinT5 on 05/20/2022 4:51 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2022 4:49 PM
My backside of experience... I did the job for 3 years... Plus been in Top management for years in my "real" life.

maybe you need to move your advice to a new forum. if you think that's good advice. I dont' care about your credentials.

that was directed at Max B4, not you, sorry.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

every single issue i've brought up is a valid issue. ]

what i've learned is, some of the issues , i can't win. I've learned that.

regarding the three property managers i've complained about.

the first one , after he was finally fired, the board discovered he had been submitting reimbursement invoices two and three times ,,noone caught it. he also took off with the 700 petty cash.
the second one who made completely false accusations about me in order to deflect attention away from her failure to properly keep the books.
the third, is not a property manger, he is a board member that has refused to enforce significant violations on the tenants he rents his two units to. At the same time, his manufacturers bs violations to get back at owners who complain about him.

I've lived here over 20 years. before the hurricane harvey and the resulting flood and destruction of all of the first floor condominiums, I probably had 2 interactions with the board or pm.

the grounds were well taken care of, if i had a work request it was documented and followed up on. there were accurate paper trails if any questions were asked.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

my point is, dont' assume you know anything about what has gone on here in the last 4 years.

don't assume because I come to this board to get advice or information on all of the ongoing association issues, that i must be nitpicking.

My complaints are about the failure of any procedures or policies to be put in place and followed regarding the maintenance of the property.

My complaints are about a board who doesn't bother to inform themselves of the facts before making decisions that will affect all of the people living here.

My complaints are about the board not holding the pm accountable. the pm is hired and paid by the board. we haven't had a real property manager since before harvey.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

25,000 for 12 cameras installed. but that doesn't include running the new conduit lines across the roofs that will power those 12 cameras.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 05/20/2022 8:17 PM
25,000 for 12 cameras installed. but that doesn't include running the new conduit lines across the roofs that will power those 12 cameras.

Laska, here's one way to search. Give it a try: https://www.courtlistener.com/?q=%28%22capital+improvement%22+AND+%22condominium%22%29+OR+%28%22capital+improvement%22+AND+%22homeowner%22%29&type=o&order_by=score+desc&stat_Precedential=on&court=ca9+wash+washctapp&page=2

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

thanks..this is great

CassyM (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

the actions are not really coordinated and it smells of illegality

NormanK2 (Florida)
Posts: 39

Posted:

We live in a Small Hoa Park of less then 200 members our President is a snowbird and as she is only here 4 mos a yr. she felt the need for Security Cameras in and outside the Clubhouse which she watchers all the time as to see what we are doing in the Clubhouse while she and the others are back up north. only 4 mos a yr can we the full time people get any Answers to Questions or approvals to do anything on our own land, so sad we can't get enough full time people to take back the HOA and have the people here for only 4 mos a yr. would have to come to us for approval that they have for themselves to do what they want is never a problem.

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