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AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
general question.

If Person-B gives their proxy to Person-A, then essentially Person-A has Person-B's power of attorney for the specific HOA meeting.

What happens if a 3rd person-C mails they're proxy to the secretary, naming Person-B as their proxy? Who 'gets' that Person C's proxy?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I think what you're asking is that if A has been named as proxy by someone, are they allowed in turn to name a third person to act for the person who named A to cast their vote?

IANAL, but unless the proxy form states otherwise, the proxy only applies to limited and specific actions, such as counting toward quorum and voting. It does not grant the proxy holder any rights beyond that, including the right to pass the proxy granter's vote to a different person.

It think it's a mistake to view proxies as giving people "power of attorney" which can be much broader.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/18/2022 8:12 AM

IANAL, but unless the proxy form states otherwise, the proxy only applies to limited and specific actions, such as counting toward quorum and voting. It does not grant the proxy holder any rights beyond that, including the right to pass the proxy granter's vote to a different person.
I checked around on the net, using searches like:

"can a proxy appoint a proxy"

"sub-proxy"

There's darn little on the subject.

I am aware the law generally says what CathyA3 says above (in this post): The proxy holder has only the powers given on the proxy form or possibly in the bylaws or state law.

Neither the state nonprofit corporation statute; the state HOA statute; nor Robert's Rules give guidance, IMO.

As CathyA3 notes, if the proxy form does not give the proxy holder the power to appoint another proxy, then I tend to think that Person C in the first post here will not have her or his vote counted without taking other steps (like showing up in person or naming someone else as proxy at a later date).

For not allowing candidates to speak at the annual meeting (or any time), and to repeat, your HOA Board is pathetic.

To be annoying: I believe "proxies" are in fact considered Power-of-Attorneys for the purpose specifically listed on the proxy form (as AdamL1 indicated) and nothing more.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
What Cathy said. I would think if A named B the proxy for the annual meeting, the only way C gets to act as proxy is if A, not B authorizes him/her to do so. That would mean tearing up the first proxy and issuing another one. I suspect if this happened in our community, we'd look at the date the proxy was signed - if A's signature isn't on the new one naming C, it's invalid. If the proxy showed up after the meeting, it's not even valid.

And if A decided to attend the meeting personally and vote, both proxies would be cancelled and B and C would be out of the picture entirely.

Boy, Adam, the more you post about your community, the more f----d up it sounds - maybe you guys should call both meetings off and hire a parliamentarian or several to run the election. I wouldn't even bother with proxies - for this one everyone will have to show up and cast a vote personally since it appears homeowners don't know or care enough to read them and/or the board (or the association attorney) dont know or care how to write them.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 05/18/2022 8:30 AM
What Cathy said. I would think if A named B the proxy for the annual meeting, the only way C gets to act as proxy is if A, not B authorizes him/her to do so. That would mean tearing up the first proxy and issuing another one. I suspect if this happened in our community, we'd look at the date the proxy was signed - if A's signature isn't on the new one naming C, it's invalid. If the proxy showed up after the meeting, it's not even valid.

And if A decided to attend the meeting personally and vote, both proxies would be cancelled and B and C would be out of the picture entirely.

Boy, Adam, the more you post about your community, the more f----d up it sounds - maybe you guys should call both meetings off and hire a parliamentarian or several to run the election. I wouldn't even bother with proxies - for this one everyone will have to show up and cast a vote personally since it appears homeowners don't know or care enough to read them and/or the board (or the association attorney) dont know or care how to write them.

pretty much this.

Additionally, the vote for the Bylaws was a single slip of paper, where by signing your name, you were voting FOR the bylwas. There was no checkbox for YES vs NO. Many people were confused, and in fact, I saw many old (like really old) members being 'coached' to just sign the paper.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
additionally, the president spent about 10 minutes discussing his 'side', and then did not allow members from the floor to openly discuss and question anything. He pressed quickly for a vote. He also stated that the Bylaws control everything in the HOA and are dominant to the CCR's...and then when challenged on many issues of the proposed bylaws, he simply said, "We're not going to discuss and argue the specifics".

Lastly, the Bylaws did not pass the vote, and the President then said that he would just go solicit more votes from absent members to get a "vote by consent".....

just WOW.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 05/18/2022 9:13 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 05/18/2022 8:30 AM
What Cathy said. I would think if A named B the proxy for the annual meeting, the only way C gets to act as proxy is if A, not B authorizes him/her to do so. That would mean tearing up the first proxy and issuing another one. I suspect if this happened in our community, we'd look at the date the proxy was signed - if A's signature isn't on the new one naming C, it's invalid. If the proxy showed up after the meeting, it's not even valid.

And if A decided to attend the meeting personally and vote, both proxies would be cancelled and B and C would be out of the picture entirely.

Boy, Adam, the more you post about your community, the more f----d up it sounds - maybe you guys should call both meetings off and hire a parliamentarian or several to run the election. I wouldn't even bother with proxies - for this one everyone will have to show up and cast a vote personally since it appears homeowners don't know or care enough to read them and/or the board (or the association attorney) dont know or care how to write them.


pretty much this.

Additionally, the vote for the Bylaws was a single slip of paper, where by signing your name, you were voting FOR the bylwas. There was no checkbox for YES vs NO. Many people were confused, and in fact, I saw many old (like really old) members being 'coached' to just sign the paper.

When you need a specific amount of people voting Yes for an amendment to pass, the No votes mean nothing. Either the % of Yes votes was achieved or not.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 05/18/2022 9:15 AM
additionally, the president spent about 10 minutes discussing his 'side', and then did not allow members from the floor to openly discuss and question anything.
At an owners' meeting. Where the bylaws say Robert's Rules apply. What an incompetent jerk. But one that yes, the Board chooses to keep as President.

At least the bylaws did not pass the vote.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/18/2022 9:33 AM
Posted By AdamL1 on 05/18/2022 9:15 AM
additionally, the president spent about 10 minutes discussing his 'side', and then did not allow members from the floor to openly discuss and question anything.
At an owners' meeting. Where the bylaws say Robert's Rules apply. What an incompetent jerk. But one that yes, the Board chooses to keep as President.

At least the bylaws did not pass the vote.

we will see.....President says he will go out and solicit enough votes from Members that did not attend to "consent" to the vote...
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Yikes, it sure sounds like these folks are just itchin' for a lawsuit. I'm afraid that unless a decent percentage of homeowners band together and say "not happenin'", the bad actors will eventually succeed in ramming through these changes.

On the plus side, even if they do succeed the bylaws do not trump CC&Rs unless your state is unusual, regardless of what they think. And it does sound like some of your fellow homeowners understand what's going on.

I'm afraid this will boil down to replacing the entire board (much work but cheaper solution) or filing a lawsuit (less work for homeowners but time-consuming and expensive).
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 05/18/2022 7:44 AM
general question.

If Person-B gives their proxy to Person-A, then essentially Person-A has Person-B's power of attorney for the specific HOA meeting.

What happens if a 3rd person-C mails they're proxy to the secretary, naming Person-B as their proxy? Who 'gets' that Person C's proxy?

Directed proxies are directed to ONE person. There is no "proxy of a proxy" concept. That's laughable. Your statutes and/or declaration / CC&Rs should spell out how proxies work.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 05/18/2022 9:55 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/18/2022 9:33 AM
Posted By AdamL1 on 05/18/2022 9:15 AM
additionally, the president spent about 10 minutes discussing his 'side', and then did not allow members from the floor to openly discuss and question anything.
At an owners' meeting. Where the bylaws say Robert's Rules apply. What an incompetent jerk. But one that yes, the Board chooses to keep as President.

At least the bylaws did not pass the vote.


we will see.....President says he will go out and solicit enough votes from Members that did not attend to "consent" to the vote...

Of course he will - and he may very well get them if those of you who attended the meeting don't get out and educate your neighbors and encourage them to join your movement. I've said this more than once, but I STILL don't see where you tried that approach. Not sure if you're concerned about the time and work involved, or that no one will listen to you, or would rather dunk it in court (get out your checkbook if you do), but as Cathy noted, this is the best way to get the change you want.

Coming here with various questions and asking opinions is fine, but it won't do a damned thing until you put words into action. If people won't listen to you for whatever reason, surely there are other homeowners who feel as you that could serve as a spokesperson for the group. lot off, take a walk around your community and find them. And set some priorities - you might start with sacking and replacing the board, and then address the amendments. That part may take more time to address, so pick the areas that appear to toss transparency with the homeowners.

Now, are you going to continue to complain or try something else, since complaining hasn't gotten you very far?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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