PaulL12 (California)
Posts: 116
Posts: 116
Posted:
We have a homeowner who has been directly contacting one of the vendors. Can a homeowner do this? If not, can they be fined for doing so? If you need clarification, please let me know.
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Does a homeowner have the right to contact a vendor directly
Started by PaulL12 • 48 replies • 3079 views
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MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posts: 501
Posted:
The first amendment of the US constitution is the right to free speech, so there is no US law that prohibits a homeowner from talking to a vendor. The police won't do anything about it if you call them because they are not breaking a law.
Your CC&Rs and rules/regulations likely do not allow fines against homeowners for talking to vendors. Even if they did, I think the courts would not look kindly on that kind of rule.
You can direct homeowners to ignore vendors. We have had homeowners in our community ask for trees to be trimmed / removed that are blocking views, and the vendor smiles and nods, and then ignores their request.
If the vendor is doing something incorrect, like stealing water from a homeowner, the homeowner has every right to talk to the vendor. That has happened before.
Your CC&Rs and rules/regulations likely do not allow fines against homeowners for talking to vendors. Even if they did, I think the courts would not look kindly on that kind of rule.
You can direct homeowners to ignore vendors. We have had homeowners in our community ask for trees to be trimmed / removed that are blocking views, and the vendor smiles and nods, and then ignores their request.
If the vendor is doing something incorrect, like stealing water from a homeowner, the homeowner has every right to talk to the vendor. That has happened before.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
No, they can't - they're not the vendor's customer, the association is.
Whether or not you can fine them depends on what your governing docs say about enforcement and the ability to levy fines:
* This must be a violation of your governing docs or your community's (published) rules.
* The governing docs must permit the association to levy fines.
* The board must have approved and published a fining schedule.
* You have to go through the normal "due process" for your community. Typically this involves one or more warnings, followed by the violation notice with the fine, and giving the owner the right to a hearing (there is usually a clock ticking for some or all of this).
Whether or not you can fine them depends on what your governing docs say about enforcement and the ability to levy fines:
* This must be a violation of your governing docs or your community's (published) rules.
* The governing docs must permit the association to levy fines.
* The board must have approved and published a fining schedule.
* You have to go through the normal "due process" for your community. Typically this involves one or more warnings, followed by the violation notice with the fine, and giving the owner the right to a hearing (there is usually a clock ticking for some or all of this).
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/13/2022 2:10 PM
No, they can't - they're not the vendor's customer, the association is.
Whether or not you can fine them depends on what your governing docs say about enforcement and the ability to levy fines:
* This must be a violation of your governing docs or your community's (published) rules.
* The governing docs must permit the association to levy fines.
* The board must have approved and published a fining schedule.
* You have to go through the normal "due process" for your community. Typically this involves one or more warnings, followed by the violation notice with the fine, and giving the owner the right to a hearing (there is usually a clock ticking for some or all of this).
No, they can't - they're not the vendor's customer, the association is.
Whether or not you can fine them depends on what your governing docs say about enforcement and the ability to levy fines:
* This must be a violation of your governing docs or your community's (published) rules.
* The governing docs must permit the association to levy fines.
* The board must have approved and published a fining schedule.
* You have to go through the normal "due process" for your community. Typically this involves one or more warnings, followed by the violation notice with the fine, and giving the owner the right to a hearing (there is usually a clock ticking for some or all of this).
Cathy, you are saying that if the landscaping vendor is stealing water from a homeowner, the homeowner is not allowed to go tell them to stop?
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulL12 on 05/13/2022 1:46 PM
We have a homeowner who has been directly contacting one of the vendors. Can a homeowner do this? If not, can they be fined for doing so? If you need clarification, please let me know.
We have a homeowner who has been directly contacting one of the vendors. Can a homeowner do this? If not, can they be fined for doing so? If you need clarification, please let me know.
Paul,
I understand where your question is coming from. This homeowner you speak of probably has concerns about their real property investment (likely their single largest asset) relative to work a vendor is performing. If your CIC is being responsive to the homeowner and providing all the necessary detail, the homeowner probably won't have a need to contact the vendor further.
While there are some GREAT managers who understand both how to interact with people AND how to delve deep to understand the question behind the question, there are just as many that do not have these skills. Your suggestion that you believe a fine is an appropriate remedy for the situation leads me to believe that there's a fundamental misunderstanding about the entire situation.
Regards,
Steve
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posts: 501
Posted:
Also, what if the homeowner is contacting the vendor to do a job for them? That certainly is allowable, as the fact that the vendor works for the HOA doesn't prohibit them from working for the homeowner.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Oh, and free speech has nothing to do with this. The first amendment prohibits the government from taking action against citizens for what they say. Private entities (which HOAs are) can regulate speech.
If a homeowner has a beef with a vendor, the correct course of action is to notify either the board or the property manager. They're the ones who hire and manage vendors, they're the ones the vendor takes orders from, and they're the ones with the authority to solve the problem.
If a homeowner has a beef with a vendor, the correct course of action is to notify either the board or the property manager. They're the ones who hire and manage vendors, they're the ones the vendor takes orders from, and they're the ones with the authority to solve the problem.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
The question was "Can a homeowner contact a vendor directly". The answer is yes and twice on Sunday. And Cathy first words out of her mouth is fine them. Why not just shoot them on the spot? As others have stated, what if they were trying to hire them for themselves. Absolutely no problem.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
If the contact is regarding work he or she would like the vendor to do at the home on areas that are HIS/HER responsibility, not the association's, I don't see a problem. However, if the work is related to the common area, the homeowner should contact the property manager or the board with questions or concerns, not the vendor. In our community we've told vendors to refer homeowners to our property manager if they're asked about this.
That includes any damage the vendor may have caused - we want to make sure the damage wasn't on the common area, and we then provide the vendor's contact information and they can duke it out.
I see no reason why anyone would be fined for this - if the homeowner asked for something that wasn't in the contract between the vendor and the association, and the vendor did it anyway, don't pay for that work (the vendor and the homeowner will hash it out). The homeowner will be told any and all unauthorized work will be his/her financial responsibility. If that work results in extra expenses for the association, bill the homeowner and if he/she refuses to pay, refer the matter to the association attorney. It may end up as a lien (the work, not the fine) or you can sue him/her and include legal expenses and attorneys fees as part of your judgment.
That includes any damage the vendor may have caused - we want to make sure the damage wasn't on the common area, and we then provide the vendor's contact information and they can duke it out.
I see no reason why anyone would be fined for this - if the homeowner asked for something that wasn't in the contract between the vendor and the association, and the vendor did it anyway, don't pay for that work (the vendor and the homeowner will hash it out). The homeowner will be told any and all unauthorized work will be his/her financial responsibility. If that work results in extra expenses for the association, bill the homeowner and if he/she refuses to pay, refer the matter to the association attorney. It may end up as a lien (the work, not the fine) or you can sue him/her and include legal expenses and attorneys fees as part of your judgment.
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/13/2022 2:15 PM
Oh, and free speech has nothing to do with this. The first amendment prohibits the government from taking action against citizens for what they say. Private entities (which HOAs are) can regulate speech.
If a homeowner has a beef with a vendor, the correct course of action is to notify either the board or the property manager. They're the ones who hire and manage vendors, they're the ones the vendor takes orders from, and they're the ones with the authority to solve the problem.
Oh, and free speech has nothing to do with this. The first amendment prohibits the government from taking action against citizens for what they say. Private entities (which HOAs are) can regulate speech.
If a homeowner has a beef with a vendor, the correct course of action is to notify either the board or the property manager. They're the ones who hire and manage vendors, they're the ones the vendor takes orders from, and they're the ones with the authority to solve the problem.
Cathy, except in some rather extraordinary circumstances, no CIC has the authority to regulate the speech between a private citizen and another private citizen and/or vendor. We could go down a rabbit hole and talk about scenarios where a homeowner has "gone off the deep end" and is harassing another owner or employee, etc. and in extreme cases there are legal remedies, but they exceed the powers and duties specifically granted to a CIC. Here's an entire page dedicated to free speech with plenty of great information if you're interested: https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/governance/free-speech
Notably, CICs can stand up communication policies, but those policies do not directly control communication between private citizens and vendors. Instead, those policies are intended to provide a structured way for homeowners to provide feedback and to eliminate the perception that a single volunteer director is speaking on behalf of the organization. Example communication policy in Bylaws Words of Wisdom: https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/governance/GOVERNINGDOCS/bylaws.
I'll also point out one last element, which is having governing documents that specifically provide for the ability to
Bylaws Section: Electronic Information System
The Board may authorize use of an electronic information system to share association documents, allow access by owners to their accounting information, allow communication between Owners (and their authorized users) and the Board, Managing Agent and staff. Use of such a system is subject to rules and regulations adopted by the Board. The System may also offer a forum for neighbor communication, which is also subject to regulation by the Board. Use of the system is a privilege, not a right, and the Board may limit use of the system for any reasonable reason, and may terminate all use of the system at its discretion. Any information system maintained by the Association must not be used for any commercial purpose.
Regards,
Steve
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveH35 on 05/13/2022 3:04 PM
Cathy, except in some rather extraordinary circumstances, no CIC has the authority to regulate the speech between a private citizen and another private citizen and/or vendor.
Cathy, except in some rather extraordinary circumstances, no CIC has the authority to regulate the speech between a private citizen and another private citizen and/or vendor.
I think a review of the tort of "tortious interference with a contract" is worth the time of any one reading this thread.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Yes, a resident can call a vendor. However, the HOA can instruct the vendor to ignore anything said in relation to HOA business or to not answer the call, giving the vendor the choice. Many experienced companies can handle this well.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posts: 821
Posted:
“Hi Bob. Please feel free to contact me any time you have a question or concern about common area maintenance. The vendors can only take direction from one person - I’m sure you can imagine why it’s necessary to have that structure in place! So rather than contacting them, please direct any feedback to me. Thank you!”
“Hey Vendor, we have a resident named Bob who has been contacting you - sorry about that. I’ve asked him to contact me, and please direct him my way if he calls you again.”
No fines or injunctions needed.
“Hey Vendor, we have a resident named Bob who has been contacting you - sorry about that. I’ve asked him to contact me, and please direct him my way if he calls you again.”
No fines or injunctions needed.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/13/2022 4:13 PM
If the private citizen is interfering with the contract between the HOA/COA and the vendor, then the HOA/COA has a right to injunctive relief to stop the interference. Posted By SteveH35 on 05/13/2022 3:04 PM
Cathy, except in some rather extraordinary circumstances, no CIC has the authority to regulate the speech between a private citizen and another private citizen and/or vendor.
Cathy, except in some rather extraordinary circumstances, no CIC has the authority to regulate the speech between a private citizen and another private citizen and/or vendor.
I think a review of the tort of "tortious interference with a contract" is worth the time of any one reading this thread.
Augustin, what you're talking about is specifically beyond the powers granted to a CIC to limit expression and free speech. You're talking about laws of tort. Let's all get a grip here.
Barbara's answer is perfect. No fines or injunctions needed, indeed!
Have a nice night,
Steve
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
How Barbara handles this is exactly how our high rise assn. does, too. So....owners have the right to speak with vendors?? Don't vendors have a right to proceed with their assigned tasks without intrusive pushy ignorant residents? IMO, an assn. that doe NOT ask a overbearing owner to leave workers alone is asking for issues around workplace harassment
We have some major projects in progress and all workers were instructed to refer every resident to our project manager. For ordinary maintenance staff--let's say window washers, it's easy to imagine the chaos and hard feelings that would emerge if various owners go out on the balcony to inform the washer that he "missed a spot" on the windows way over there that his swing stage can't even reach. Instead, the resident must contact th PM. anymore.
IF it actually occurs that a vendor is stealing from the HOA, the owner goes directly to management and does NOT confront the worker.
We have a policy that owners may not make direct arrangement with any onsite vendor to do work for them in their units/on their balconies. Our website has a contact list of those vendors who do offer in-unit services, e.g., HVAC servicing
We have some major projects in progress and all workers were instructed to refer every resident to our project manager. For ordinary maintenance staff--let's say window washers, it's easy to imagine the chaos and hard feelings that would emerge if various owners go out on the balcony to inform the washer that he "missed a spot" on the windows way over there that his swing stage can't even reach. Instead, the resident must contact th PM. anymore.
IF it actually occurs that a vendor is stealing from the HOA, the owner goes directly to management and does NOT confront the worker.
We have a policy that owners may not make direct arrangement with any onsite vendor to do work for them in their units/on their balconies. Our website has a contact list of those vendors who do offer in-unit services, e.g., HVAC servicing
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/13/2022 2:30 PM
The question was "Can a homeowner contact a vendor directly". The answer is yes and twice on Sunday. And Cathy first words out of her mouth is fine them. Why not just shoot them on the spot? As others have stated, what if they were trying to hire them for themselves. Absolutely no problem.
The question was "Can a homeowner contact a vendor directly". The answer is yes and twice on Sunday. And Cathy first words out of her mouth is fine them. Why not just shoot them on the spot? As others have stated, what if they were trying to hire them for themselves. Absolutely no problem.
Reading is fundamental.
The OP asked specifically about their ability to fine the homeowner. Hence my mentioning fines in my response. 'Cause, ya know, that's what the OP asked about.
But you do you. Absolutely no problem.
As for other things such as "stealing water" or "wanting to hire the vendor themselves":
Since this is an HOA, probably the vendor was on common area and not on homeowner's personal property at all. There are exceptions, but generally homeowners have no say about what goes on with the common area.
As for wanting to hire the vendor, the vendor is probably on the clock and on the HOA's dime, and you'd want him to concentrate on the job he's being paid for. If the homeowner wants contract info to hire the vendor: sure, fine, whatever, although this info may be on the vendor's work vehicle. Or on the internet. Great invention, the internet. Has reviews of vendors and everything. Very useful.
But it's true that you can't stop a homeowner from interrupting workers, and you can't control how the vendor responds or doesn't respond. If it's a dispute, the HOA will have to get involved in any case since the HOA hired the vendor.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveH35 on 05/13/2022 8:27 PM
Augustin, what you're talking about is specifically beyond the powers granted to a CIC to limit expression and free speech.
Augustin, what you're talking about is specifically beyond the powers granted to a CIC to limit expression and free speech.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/14/2022 6:00 AM
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has. Posted By SteveH35 on 05/13/2022 8:27 PM
Augustin, what you're talking about is specifically beyond the powers granted to a CIC to limit expression and free speech.
Augustin, what you're talking about is specifically beyond the powers granted to a CIC to limit expression and free speech.
The power of a corporation to seek injunctive relief and the power of a CIC (specifically) to limit free speech (i.e. whether a homeowner can post signs in their windows or in their yard, and what those signs can say, etc.) are two completely separate legal concepts. Full stop. CICs are not empowered to control the ability for homeowners to communicate with other people or corporations.
Regards,
Steve
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/14/2022 6:00 AM
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has. Posted By SteveH35 on 05/13/2022 8:27 PM
Augustin, what you're talking about is specifically beyond the powers granted to a CIC to limit expression and free speech.
Augustin, what you're talking about is specifically beyond the powers granted to a CIC to limit expression and free speech.
While I agree with this statement, if all the homeowner is doing is talking to the vendor, there is no interference going on. The vendor can simply ignore the homeowner and walk away.
Interference is if the homeowner doesn't want a tree to be felled, so they climb the tree and sit it in to prevent the tree from being felled.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
One person constantly is injecting that the courts are the only relief for associations against homeowners and it is one of the reason HOA's have such bad name regardless of the BS CAI puts out!
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/14/2022 10:18 AM
One person constantly is injecting that the courts are the only relief for associations against homeowners and it is one of the reason HOA's have such bad name regardless of the BS CAI puts out!
One person constantly is injecting that the courts are the only relief for associations against homeowners and it is one of the reason HOA's have such bad name regardless of the BS CAI puts out!
Amen. Summon the Tulpa. X-files Arcadia: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751076/
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/14/2022 9:22 AM
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has.
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/14/2022 10:41 AM
While I agree with this statement, if all the homeowner is doing is talking to the vendor,Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/14/2022 9:22 AM
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has.
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has.
That is NOT Michael's statement, it is YOURS.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/14/2022 9:22 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/14/2022 6:00 AM
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has.
A corporation may absolutely seek injunctive relief to stop interference with a contract the corporation has.
While I agree with this statement, if all the homeowner is doing is talking to the vendor, there is no interference going on.
A HOA has a contract to care for the front lawns of the lots in the HOA.
An owner phones the HOA's landscaper and screams: "If your employees come onto my lawn again to trim the trees, I will shoot them! I have also set up booby traps on my lawn! If your guys step in one, they will lose a foot. Stay off my lawn!"
The vendor phones the HOA manager and says, "Our insurance goes only so far. Our company will not put its employees at risk. Sorry, but we won't take care of this guy's lot."
And so on.
I am happy to disagree with you that mere words can cause tortious interference with a contract.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/14/2022 10:47 AM
I am happy to disagree with you that mere words can cause tortious interference with a contract.
I am happy to disagree with you that mere words can cause tortious interference with a contract.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Again, the OP asked if a homeowner can contact a vendor. The answer is yes. If they do contact the vendor, can the owner be fine, NO, for what, just contacting the vendor? Everything thing the "veterans" just made up. This is another reason people hate HOA's.
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posts: 568
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/14/2022 10:56 AM
Again, the OP asked if a homeowner can contact a vendor. The answer is yes. If they do contact the vendor, can the owner be fine, NO, for what, just contacting the vendor? Everything thing the "veterans" just made up. This is another reason people hate HOA's.
Again, the OP asked if a homeowner can contact a vendor. The answer is yes. If they do contact the vendor, can the owner be fine, NO, for what, just contacting the vendor? Everything thing the "veterans" just made up. This is another reason people hate HOA's.
This is another reason why vendor's hate HOA's. Too many resident know it all's. Had one resident screaming at a WORKER that they were installing our retaining walls all wrong. Had another resident call our vendor anonymously asking for a quote because the HOA overcharged them, and only them, more for an offered, and committed to upgrade then they charged everyone else.
Oh, and many years ago, had "the resident drunk" stop emergency work. Police were called and they dispersed everyone. HOA had to pay to bring the vendor back out to complete the job.
It's difficult finding vendor's who will even talk to an HOA. Too many levels of "management".
We can't fine the owner, but if the owner interferes and causes additional costs, we will try to collect those costs.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 05/14/2022 11:21 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/14/2022 10:56 AM
Again, the OP asked if a homeowner can contact a vendor. The answer is yes. If they do contact the vendor, can the owner be fine, NO, for what, just contacting the vendor? Everything thing the "veterans" just made up. This is another reason people hate HOA's.
Again, the OP asked if a homeowner can contact a vendor. The answer is yes. If they do contact the vendor, can the owner be fine, NO, for what, just contacting the vendor? Everything thing the "veterans" just made up. This is another reason people hate HOA's.
This is another reason why vendor's hate HOA's. Too many resident know it all's. Had one resident screaming at a WORKER that they were installing our retaining walls all wrong. Had another resident call our vendor anonymously asking for a quote because the HOA overcharged them, and only them, more for an offered, and committed to upgrade then they charged everyone else.
Oh, and many years ago, had "the resident drunk" stop emergency work. Police were called and they dispersed everyone. HOA had to pay to bring the vendor back out to complete the job.
It's difficult finding vendor's who will even talk to an HOA. Too many levels of "management".
We can't fine the owner, but if the owner interferes and causes additional costs, we will try to collect those costs.
I've been managing HOA's for 13+ years and never have had an issue.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/14/2022 10:56 AM
Again, the OP asked if a homeowner can contact a vendor. The answer is yes.
Again, the OP asked if a homeowner can contact a vendor. The answer is yes.
I believe a HOA/COA may lawfully set up a policy for owners who contact (or harass, as PatJ1 explains) vendors that includes the usual warning, followed by a second warning, and then as needed, followed by a fine. Or depending on the nature of the owner's communications, maybe start with BarbaraT1's approach. In the extreme cases, the HOA/COA attorney can get involved and send a cease and desist letter.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
We had a retention pond issue. We contacted several possible vendors. I was to show one vendor around but the first question out of his mouth was is this an HOA? I replied yes. He said there is no need to show me around as I will not do business with an HOA. I asked him why? He said there are to many looking over my shoulder and often questioning my work. He also said BOD's change and they often want to re-do the contract after it has been settled. He said they are just to much trouble to work with. I admired his candidness.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858
Posts: 858
Posted:
What is the issue with a homeowner contacting the vendor? Is the vendor complaining about these contacts? Is the vendor listening to the owner and not to the Board requests?
AntonioL (California)
Posts: 4
Posts: 4
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulL12 on 05/13/2022 1:46 PM
We have a homeowner who has been directly contacting one of the vendors. Can a homeowner do this? If not, can they be fined for doing so? If you need clarification, please let me know.
We have a homeowner who has been directly contacting one of the vendors. Can a homeowner do this? If not, can they be fined for doing so? If you need clarification, please let me know.
Well yes & no - they have the right under the 1A & 14A of the COTUS which just covers their right to speak but in terms of the right to compel a vendor to act pursuant to a homeowner's instruction or directive, then no. The only exception I can imagine is if the Board and\or governing documents has empowered the homeowner to provide direction to the vendor in question.
In terms of fines, at least in CA - the HOA can only fine for a violation of the governing docs or specific code sections of the law.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I thought Paul, the OP, was saying the owner was contacting, i.e., interrupting, the vendor's work. But maybe Paul meant the owner is phoning the vendor outside of work? Please clarify, Paul.
in our assn's Rules & Regs-- a governing document- IF an owner is behaving inappropriately towards staff, they can be called to a hearing. Now vendors are not staff and my assn has never called an owner to hearing for trying to boss around, say, the window washers. But I'm pretty sure there'd be no hesitation to call pushy, abrasive owners to hearing who's interrupting worker's labor and trying to direct them.
We have called to hearing -- perhaps 3 times over 10 years owners for shouting and swearing at our PM or our mgr. assistant. All violators were fined. The nastiest was a couple of years ago when an owner was upset that a delivery to her couldn't be found. She began yelling at the PM and finally approached her and coughed in her face. There was a witness.
Here is our rule "Corroborated report of inappropriate behavior towards staff. Immediate call to hearing. $100." Our HOA lawyer did say that it fit with the assn. duty to protect, maintain and enhance the common areas.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/14/2022 6:35 PM
Here is our rule "Corroborated report of inappropriate behavior towards staff. Immediate call to hearing. $100." Our HOA lawyer did say that it fit with the assn. duty to protect, maintain and enhance the common areas.
Here is our rule "Corroborated report of inappropriate behavior towards staff. Immediate call to hearing. $100." Our HOA lawyer did say that it fit with the assn. duty to protect, maintain and enhance the common areas.
Attorneys say a lot of things, but conflating reasonable standards of conduct with a "duty to protect, maintain and enhance the common areas" is a stretch way too far. The latter has to do with physical property in common. Employees are not property. Your attorney should find a better way to explain the basis for reasonable standards.
Regards,
Steve
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
I get that some homeowners may bother contractors. It is the contractors responsibility to ignore them. What jury are you going to seat that is not going to award the homeowner damages when the HOA tries to regulate who they may speak to.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
If the mens room primarily serves the swimming pool, close the mens room until the pool repair is completed. Have your attorney send the homeowner a notice by registered mail the pool and surrounding area are closed until the board notifies the homeowners repairs have been completed. He is warned his entrance into the area will result in his arrest for trespassing. If he ignores the notice, call the polic3 and have him charged.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Probably my own wording is off, Steve. As a board member when we made this rule, we did seek our GC's written opinion. He tends to support Board actions that benefit the corporation even if not explicitly specified in our CC&Rs. He agreed that staff's ability to do their jobs without interference or fear of obnoxious owners benefits the assn. The Board, did not have to accept his opinion, but felt potential discipline of owners was not only reasonable, but that the rule might be a deterrent.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/15/2022 10:22 AM
Probably my own wording is off, Steve. As a board member when we made this rule, we did seek our GC's written opinion. He tends to support Board actions that benefit the corporation even if not explicitly specified in our CC&Rs. He agreed that staff's ability to do their jobs without interference or fear of obnoxious owners benefits the assn. The Board, did not have to accept his opinion, but felt potential discipline of owners was not only reasonable, but that the rule might be a deterrent.
Probably my own wording is off, Steve. As a board member when we made this rule, we did seek our GC's written opinion. He tends to support Board actions that benefit the corporation even if not explicitly specified in our CC&Rs. He agreed that staff's ability to do their jobs without interference or fear of obnoxious owners benefits the assn. The Board, did not have to accept his opinion, but felt potential discipline of owners was not only reasonable, but that the rule might be a deterrent.
Kerry, agreed, there is a reasonable way to support rules that prohibit 'bad actions by bad actors.' Such prohibitions should be supported by the declaration / CC&Rs and/or Bylwas and then be incorporated into rules and regulations with an accompanying violation and enforcement schedule.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Paul
What was the reason why the owner contacted a vendor?
What was the reason why the owner contacted a vendor?
JustinT5 (Alabama)
Posts: 50
Posts: 50
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulL12 on 05/13/2022 1:46 PM
We have a homeowner who has been directly contacting one of the vendors. Can a homeowner do this? If not, can they be fined for doing so? If you need clarification, please let me know.
We have a homeowner who has been directly contacting one of the vendors. Can a homeowner do this? If not, can they be fined for doing so? If you need clarification, please let me know.
contacting vendor because why? My response will be different depending on reasoning. Hiring vendor, to do some private landscape work, no big deal. hiring vendor as a hitman, very big deal.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Asked Paul for clarification, but he hasn't responded, Justin
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/15/2022 7:04 PM
Asked Paul for clarification, but he hasn't responded, Justin
Asked Paul for clarification, but he hasn't responded, Justin
That seems to be a recurring issue. People post something vague, we debate the possibilities and ask for clarification, OP never returns.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Steve wrote:" Kerry, agreed, there is a reasonable way to support rules that prohibit 'bad actions by bad actors.' Such prohibitions should be supported by the declaration / CC&Rs and/or Bylaws and then be incorporated into rules and regulations with an accompanying violation and enforcement schedule."
As noted previously, Our CC&Rs state one major duty of the assn. is the maintenance of our common areas. I've also cited the consequences of violating the rule and you can see that immediate call to hearing and a potential fine of $100. Our actual rule is: "Rudeness or other inappropriate behavior towards xxxx staff is not permitted."
As noted previously, Our CC&Rs state one major duty of the assn. is the maintenance of our common areas. I've also cited the consequences of violating the rule and you can see that immediate call to hearing and a potential fine of $100. Our actual rule is: "Rudeness or other inappropriate behavior towards xxxx staff is not permitted."
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/16/2022 9:38 AM
Steve wrote:" Kerry, agreed, there is a reasonable way to support rules that prohibit 'bad actions by bad actors.' Such prohibitions should be supported by the declaration / CC&Rs and/or Bylaws and then be incorporated into rules and regulations with an accompanying violation and enforcement schedule."
As noted previously, Our CC&Rs state one major duty of the assn. is the maintenance of our common areas. I've also cited the consequences of violating the rule and you can see that immediate call to hearing and a potential fine of $100. Our actual rule is: "Rudeness or other inappropriate behavior towards xxxx staff is not permitted."
Steve wrote:" Kerry, agreed, there is a reasonable way to support rules that prohibit 'bad actions by bad actors.' Such prohibitions should be supported by the declaration / CC&Rs and/or Bylaws and then be incorporated into rules and regulations with an accompanying violation and enforcement schedule."
As noted previously, Our CC&Rs state one major duty of the assn. is the maintenance of our common areas. I've also cited the consequences of violating the rule and you can see that immediate call to hearing and a potential fine of $100. Our actual rule is: "Rudeness or other inappropriate behavior towards xxxx staff is not permitted."
Kerry, a prima facie read of the rule you posted appears challenging to enforce. "Rudeness" leaves far too much room for interpretation and, if your association were sued over an enforcement action about "rudeness" I think you'd lose the case depending on the circumstances.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The three owners who have been called to hearing as potentially violating our rule all were very apologetic about their conduct, promised, to behave in the future, etc. However vague the wording seems, its clear meaning seems to be apparent to folks in my HOA. Unlike others at this site, I don't see potential lawsuits lurking everywhere.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/16/2022 11:54 AM
The three owners who have been called to hearing as potentially violating our rule all were very apologetic about their conduct, promised, to behave in the future, etc. However vague the wording seems, its clear meaning seems to be apparent to folks in my HOA. Unlike others at this site, I don't see potential lawsuits lurking everywhere.
The three owners who have been called to hearing as potentially violating our rule all were very apologetic about their conduct, promised, to behave in the future, etc. However vague the wording seems, its clear meaning seems to be apparent to folks in my HOA. Unlike others at this site, I don't see potential lawsuits lurking everywhere.
"Unlike others at this site, I don't see potential lawsuits lurking everywhere." I think this is a very valid point that needs to be remembered.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/16/2022 11:54 AM
The three owners who have been called to hearing as potentially violating our rule all were very apologetic about their conduct, promised, to behave in the future, etc. However vague the wording seems, its clear meaning seems to be apparent to folks in my HOA. Unlike others at this site, I don't see potential lawsuits lurking everywhere.
The three owners who have been called to hearing as potentially violating our rule all were very apologetic about their conduct, promised, to behave in the future, etc. However vague the wording seems, its clear meaning seems to be apparent to folks in my HOA. Unlike others at this site, I don't see potential lawsuits lurking everywhere.
I would definitely tread lightly on free speech. Prohibiting "rudeness" (not objectively threats, profanities, etc.) is probably beyond the scope of authority granted by the CA Civil Code. I would love to see a case go to trial.
MikeB16 (Montana)
Posts: 17
Posts: 17
Posted:
He has the right to contact a vendor, but if he requests a service, it is up to him to pay for it himself. This is provided he even has a right to do said improvement. Make it very clear to vendors the HOA will not pay for anything not specifically ordered by the board.
RickJ5 (Nevada)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
This came up awhile ago, where the vendor was tasked with spraying herbicides in the community. This was put on hold while they considered safety considerations, along with precautionary measures.
A vendor showed up, and the homeowner was under the impression they were spraying herbicides, contrary to the hold in place.
So, the homeowner simply asked the foreperson there, who confirmed they were, and called the vendor to double check what the foreman said.
This seems to me to be a reasonable act by the homeowner, as long as the contact was simply a method to get information.
There is nothing I know of that would prevent this type of contact.
If a homeowner is concerned about the safety of their family, how can anyone restrict them from getting information from the Vendor. And why would anyone object to that?
Homeowners have rights, one is the right to quiet enjoyment of their property. And then they have the basic fundamental right as to the safety of their family unit.
That would be a rather simple view. And one that it would be prudent for an HOA to follow, unless of course they want a bunch of unhappy homeowners
A vendor showed up, and the homeowner was under the impression they were spraying herbicides, contrary to the hold in place.
So, the homeowner simply asked the foreperson there, who confirmed they were, and called the vendor to double check what the foreman said.
This seems to me to be a reasonable act by the homeowner, as long as the contact was simply a method to get information.
There is nothing I know of that would prevent this type of contact.
If a homeowner is concerned about the safety of their family, how can anyone restrict them from getting information from the Vendor. And why would anyone object to that?
Homeowners have rights, one is the right to quiet enjoyment of their property. And then they have the basic fundamental right as to the safety of their family unit.
That would be a rather simple view. And one that it would be prudent for an HOA to follow, unless of course they want a bunch of unhappy homeowners
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