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LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I'm looking for advice on how to deal with a problem homeowner before I decide to take the "nuclear" option and either ban him from the clubhouse or have the attorney write him a letter.

This homeowner lives seasonally in our community. We thought he'd be gone by now so we let some of his behavior slide, but apparently he has decided to stay longer this year. He is a daily lap swimmer and then uses the locker room facilities every single day and treats them like it's his personal bathroom. He complains about every little thing that he does not like - including repeatedly removing a plant from the men's bathroom and finally leaving it in the hall with a note saying "plants don't belong in men's rooms".

Anyway, the big issue is that the main swimming pool, where he would have normally swum laps, has been closed since January. It needed to be resurfaced but the vendor was delaying (like every other vendor in our area) and the state Department of Health shut it down. Work began on the pool and was completed, but after the pool was reopened in March we discovered that the new plaster surface was defective and the whole thing has to be redone. Rather than sue the vendor, we have worked out a deal to have the pool surface taken down to the original gunnite and then replastered at their expense with the association only paying for the additional labor for the surface removal. However, becasue the vendor and his sub are not making any money on this they taking their time to finish the project. We are just about to get our attorney involved.

This homeowner is livid that he can't swim laps in that pool. We have another, slightly smaller pool with full locker room facilities and he has been using that. But he is so angry that the main pool is closed that he came to the last board meeting with a bag of tiles and plaster from the failed surface and tried to throw it at the board. He is constantly "supervising" the work site - which is posted as closed. He talks to the workmen and the inspectors. Yesterday was the last straw. He talked to a board member, then didn't like that answer so he called the PM company emergency line during business hours saying that he did not want to talk to the PM or the admin, but only wanted to talk to a regional manager. Then he called the regional manager directl and berated her. We have all been very transparent about the issue with communication going out by email and at the board meetings. There is no secret agenda.

I understand he is frustrated. He told the board we ruined his season this year. Is it worth it for me to call him and give him rules such as he can't go on the pool deck, can't speak to any workers, and can only call me for updates?
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
My opinion:

-- The owner's speaking to vendors in the ways you describe is this owner interfering with a contract between the HOA and the vendor. If I were on your board, I would support the HOA attorney sending this owner a letter to knock it off or the HOA will seek a restraining order.

-- If you are willing to give him updates, I suggest you limit him to one email per week.

-- Consider creating a rule that says, "Owners shall not address HOA vendors. Except for concerns about the Property Manager, owners shall take any concerns they have with vendors to the Property Manager. Owners may email ___ with concerns about the property manager. Please understand that, when an owner addresses a vendor, the owner is potentially interfering with the HOA's contract with the vendor, to the detriment of all."

-- I hope you will obtain a board majority vote for whatever you are seeking.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 05/10/2022 6:31 AM
But he is so angry that the main pool is closed that he came to the last board meeting with a bag of tiles and plaster from the failed surface and tried to throw it at the board.
I cannot tell how close this came to a battery. It sounds like a possible assault (meaning apprehension of physical danger to one's self, without any actual touching). The instant any owner gets physical, I would call the police and request they document the incident with a report, making sure the owner knows this report was made. This can sometimes cool the jets of anyone thinking of getting physical.
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 05/10/2022 6:31 AM
I'm looking for advice on how to deal with a problem homeowner before I decide to take the "nuclear" option and either ban him from the clubhouse or have the attorney write him a letter.

This homeowner lives seasonally in our community. We thought he'd be gone by now so we let some of his behavior slide, but apparently he has decided to stay longer this year. He is a daily lap swimmer and then uses the locker room facilities every single day and treats them like it's his personal bathroom. He complains about every little thing that he does not like - including repeatedly removing a plant from the men's bathroom and finally leaving it in the hall with a note saying "plants don't belong in men's rooms".

Anyway, the big issue is that the main swimming pool, where he would have normally swum laps, has been closed since January. It needed to be resurfaced but the vendor was delaying (like every other vendor in our area) and the state Department of Health shut it down. Work began on the pool and was completed, but after the pool was reopened in March we discovered that the new plaster surface was defective and the whole thing has to be redone. Rather than sue the vendor, we have worked out a deal to have the pool surface taken down to the original gunnite and then replastered at their expense with the association only paying for the additional labor for the surface removal. However, becasue the vendor and his sub are not making any money on this they taking their time to finish the project. We are just about to get our attorney involved.

This homeowner is livid that he can't swim laps in that pool. We have another, slightly smaller pool with full locker room facilities and he has been using that. But he is so angry that the main pool is closed that he came to the last board meeting with a bag of tiles and plaster from the failed surface and tried to throw it at the board. He is constantly "supervising" the work site - which is posted as closed. He talks to the workmen and the inspectors. Yesterday was the last straw. He talked to a board member, then didn't like that answer so he called the PM company emergency line during business hours saying that he did not want to talk to the PM or the admin, but only wanted to talk to a regional manager. Then he called the regional manager directl and berated her. We have all been very transparent about the issue with communication going out by email and at the board meetings. There is no secret agenda.

I understand he is frustrated. He told the board we ruined his season this year. Is it worth it for me to call him and give him rules such as he can't go on the pool deck, can't speak to any workers, and can only call me for updates?

Lori,

Because you mentioned it, do your governing documents provide you and/or the Board the authority withhold the use of common amenities based on resident behavior?

Regards,
Steve
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
It doesn't sound like this owner is willing or wanting to cooperate with the board and management. Collect and keep track of all evidence, including communications, that demonstrates the owner's unruly behaviour, and get a lawyer involved. They may encourage you to contact the local authorities.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarshallT on 05/10/2022 9:11 AM
It doesn't sound like this owner is willing or wanting to cooperate with the board and management. Collect and keep track of all evidence, including communications, that demonstrates the owner's unruly behaviour, and get a lawyer involved. They may encourage you to contact the local authorities.

I agree. It is time for the association's lawyer to write a Cease and Desist letter to this owner.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
In this day and age it really is counter productive to threat people with kid gloves, it only kicks the can down the road and postpones the inevitable.

I see no problem with contacting the HOA attorney and sending this owner a C&D, start the paper trail and get it on record, before this guy becomes a real pain.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Just as a comment:

He's right that potted plants don't belong in men's bathrooms or restrooms. I have never been to a men's room that has a potted plant in it, and wouldn't want to use one that had one in it. I'm not sure whose idea it was to install a potted plant in the men's room but probably wasn't a guy.

Some feedback is worth listening to.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 8:00 PM
Just as a comment:

He's right that potted plants don't belong in men's bathrooms or restrooms. I have never been to a men's room that has a potted plant in it, and wouldn't want to use one that had one in it. I'm not sure whose idea it was to install a potted plant in the men's room but probably wasn't a guy.

Some feedback is worth listening to.

Are you being serious?
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/11/2022 3:07 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 8:00 PM
Just as a comment:

He's right that potted plants don't belong in men's bathrooms or restrooms. I have never been to a men's room that has a potted plant in it, and wouldn't want to use one that had one in it. I'm not sure whose idea it was to install a potted plant in the men's room but probably wasn't a guy.

Some feedback is worth listening to.


Are you being serious?

Yes. My opinion - he has a concern that he presented to the Board and they ignored him.

Now I don't live in the south. Maybe potted plants in men's rooms are common in the south.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 8:00 PM
Just as a comment:

He's right that potted plants don't belong in men's bathrooms or restrooms. I have never been to a men's room that has a potted plant in it, and wouldn't want to use one that had one in it. I'm not sure whose idea it was to install a potted plant in the men's room but probably wasn't a guy.

Some feedback is worth listening to.

A potted plant in the men's room isn't going to make you gay, Michael.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/11/2022 7:58 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/11/2022 3:07 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 8:00 PM
Just as a comment:

He's right that potted plants don't belong in men's bathrooms or restrooms. I have never been to a men's room that has a potted plant in it, and wouldn't want to use one that had one in it. I'm not sure whose idea it was to install a potted plant in the men's room but probably wasn't a guy.

Some feedback is worth listening to.


Are you being serious?


Yes. My opinion - he has a concern that he presented to the Board and they ignored him.

Now I don't live in the south. Maybe potted plants in men's rooms are common in the south.

Down south we spend our time and energy on things that matter.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 8:00 PM
Just as a comment:
He's right that potted plants don't belong in men's bathrooms or restrooms. I have never been to a men's room that has a potted plant in it, and wouldn't want to use one that had one in it. I'm not sure whose idea it was to install a potted plant in the men's room but probably wasn't a guy.
MichaelT21, what is wrong with potted plants in a bathroom?
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
FYI - the guy didn't ever bring this to the board. He just kept moving the plant and finally left a note for the PM to find when he moved the plant out into the hall.

It was a small artificial plant placed for decoration on the vanity in the bathroom. He was doing his "grooming" in the bathroom (not the locker room) and it apparently bothered him. Like I said before - he used the locker room and the bathroom in the clubhouse like it was his personal home. Even though he lives in a condo where water is included in the monthly condo fee, he and his wife come to the clubhouse to shower every day.

It takes all kinds.

I have a phone call with him today to let him know our expectations are: 1) I am the sole point of contact from now on. 2) We are not hiding any information and will let him know the status of the job, but he can only call or email me once per week regarding the pool and 3) he may not be on the pool deck. If he doesn't follow these rules he will be getting a letter from the attorney.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 05/11/2022 9:32 AM
I have a phone call with him today to let him know our expectations are: 1) I am the sole point of contact from now on. 2) We are not hiding any information and will let him know the status of the job, but he can only call or email me once per week regarding the pool and 3) he may not be on the pool deck. If he doesn't follow these rules he will be getting a letter from the attorney.
That's generous of you. It also saves attorney fees. I trust you will be strong: braced for abuse, but being prepared not to return the abuse in-kind.

Come here afterwards, alcoholic beverage in hand, to vent and relate what the jerk said?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
What a saga! But I'm surprised, Lori, that you have sole authority to make these decisions as effective and as logical as they sound. Doesn't your Board make such decisions normally? Wouldn't something in writing from the entire Board be a little more professional and show him that the Board stands together on being adamantly opposed to his conduct?

(The workers long ago should have been told by your PM and their supervisor to NOT engage in any conversations with any residents. Nothing good ever comes of this. This prohibition is built into some of our contracts)

Withholding common area privileges is effective in my assn. BUT, #1, our CC&Rs and our Bylaws permit it; #2. The violator must be permitted to meet in executive session with the board for, I guess in FL, a committee before the board can withhold privileges. #3. The alleged violator must have violated a real codified rule or covenant.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Anything I do regarding as situation like this is discussed and approved by the rest of the board. We are a very tight-knit group and we almost always agree. Although we share the work (I do the ARC advisory and am working with overdue accounts) individually, as president I don't have any more power than other board members.

It's impossible to tell all the workers on our property not to speak to homeowners. The landscape guys are pretty good at it, but these pool workers have no idea whether the person speaking to them is on the board or not.

Withholding privileges is our last option. Our documents do allow it, but just like a fine it would have to be recommended by the board at an official board meeting, then sent before the fining committee for implementation.

He is leaving to go "up north" this weekend so he will not be a problem until the fall.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
I know i'm in the minority here. I think the guy has a right to be mad about the pool not being completed effectively and efficiently.

Who on the board approved the vendor to repave the pool. Did anyone qualified check the work before the pool was filled back up and the vendor was paid?

The association is obligated to keep common area ammenities and facilities in good working order.
Also, Who cares if he uses the pool every day. He has a right to use it every day as long as he abides by the rules. Sounds to me like the none of the board think the pool is a big deal and have not made it a priority to ensure it's in operation.

With that said, the bringing the tiles and plaster to the meeting and trying to throw it at the board, IF THIS IS TRUE, then of course, get the attorney involved. However, its a common blame game tactic for a board to embelish an owners behavior to make the owner seem like the problem. Often, there's more to the story
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 05/14/2022 9:34 PM
I know i'm in the minority here. I think the guy has a right to be mad about the pool not being completed effectively and efficiently.

With that said, the bringing the tiles and plaster to the meeting and trying to throw it at the board, IF THIS IS TRUE, then of course, get the attorney involved. However, its a common blame game tactic for a board to embelish an owners behavior to make the owner seem like the problem. Often, there's more to the story

Laska,

That's an important point. The CIC industry, led by CAI, has fomented the embellishment of homeowner behavior deemed to be not in the best interest of the industry by instructing managers and management companies (after all, CAI and CAMICB control *all* of the residential property management training). The word "meddle" and its synonyms have been used for what's likely decades to marginalize certain homeowners. An entire article about "meddling" was recently published by one of CAI's business lines. The article is actually decent, but troublesome in that it uses language associated with marginalization.

Regards,
Steve
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
steve, where can i find the article? can you post a link or at least the title of the article?
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 05/15/2022 11:26 PM
steve, where can i find the article? can you post a link or at least the title of the article?

Laska, I'm going post some references at your request, but I'm also going to make everyone aware one of the five "irked" forum members decided to report posting links as bad behavior prompting Community123 to contact me.

Posting links to free information is not an advertisement. I'm not here to promote anything other than information germane to the discussion that will help someone else. The amount of helpful information and examples on the internet are amazing.

https://hoaresources.caionline.org/tips-to-handle-hoa-residents-who-meddle/
https://wisepropertysolutions.com/whos-meddling-hoa-contractors/
https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/governance/ethics

Regards,
Steve

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveH35 on 05/16/2022 7:59 AM
I'm also going to make everyone aware one of the five "irked" forum members decided to report posting links as bad behavior prompting Community123 to contact me.
I post links all the time and have never been reprimanded by Community123.

Are you sure there wasn't more to your being called into the principal's office?
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/16/2022 9:00 AM
Posted By SteveH35 on 05/16/2022 7:59 AM
I'm also going to make everyone aware one of the five "irked" forum members decided to report posting links as bad behavior prompting Community123 to contact me.
I post links all the time and have never been reprimanded by Community123.
Are you sure there wasn't more to your being called into the principal's office?

Yep ... which goes to show you that a small number of people getting their hackles up over nothing just makes it harder to educate the audience.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveH35 on 05/16/2022 10:01 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/16/2022 9:00 AM
Posted By SteveH35 on 05/16/2022 7:59 AM
I'm also going to make everyone aware one of the five "irked" forum members decided to report posting links as bad behavior prompting Community123 to contact me.
I post links all the time and have never been reprimanded by Community123.
Are you sure there wasn't more to your being called into the principal's office?


Yep ... which goes to show you that a small number of people getting their hackles up over nothing just makes it harder to educate the audience.
Huh. Why would anyone report just your posts with links and not others'?

Correction: I have been reprimanded by the person-behind-the-curtains of this site, via deleting certain posts. I do not believe links were involved. I wish the person-behind-the-curtains would delete all my posts exceeding say 200 words.

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