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GeorgeB11 (Illinois)
Posts: 6
Posted:
There have been several recent articles about HOAs placing restrictions on rental properties -- corporations which buy homes then rent them out.
Does your HOA have any such restrictions or is it considering such restrictions?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
We have a rental restriction. It keeps Airbnb and others of that ilk out, but it will not stop corporate buyers who do typical leases.

* Problem #1: many small investors own their properties through LLCs which are corporations. I don't believe it's legal to discriminate on the basis of who the buyers are (or if it is, the big corporate owners have the dollars to fight an HOA into bankruptcy - it's not a level playing field). So there is that.

* Some HOAs/COAs have a restriction that prohibits renting for the first 6 months or 1 year of ownership. This will keep a lot of corporate owners out, at least for now while there are plenty of other vulnerable associations out there. When the supply becomes limited, the corporations have the deep pockets to wait out the 6 months or whatever. So this won't keep them out indefinitely.

* Some HOAs/COAs actually limit the number of rentals in the community. This approach has some issues, one of which is difficulty in enforcing it. Our lawyer also told us not to do this based on his review of case law - he found instances of courts ruling that the limit is arbitrary. My personal opinion is that it is arbitrary and also discriminatory: it allows some owners to do something that others are prohibiting from doing. (Comment: you'll find folks on this website who disagree with my views on this.)

* To tie this to another thread currently being discussed, I believe that co-ops have more options for keeping corporate buyers out since current owners can approve or disapprove new buyers.

When we tried to tighten up our rental restriction, homeowners were overall in favor but we didn't get the 75% we needed to amend our CC&Rs. If I end up back on the board, I think we should try again, and this time I will lobby in favor of the amendment. (I didn't the first time because I didn't want to be accused of unfairly influencing the vote. But at this point, I believe it needs to be influenced. Most people are completely unaware of what's going on with condo deconversions or what happens when too many units are rented and what this means for them personally. They need to have it spelled out.)
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It will be a up hill battle to actually enforce a restriction on rentals even if you have one. A good lawyer on the other side and the house of cards will fall. There may be a few states that restrictions are on the records but not many.

A lawyer told us once, unless the HOA owns the property/house/condo, they can't restrict an owner renting it out. The HOA is a 3rd party to the rental agreements.

My best advice is to have a rule to make owners have to have a lease agreement their tenants have to obey the HOA rules. Any violations can let the owner enforce cancelling the rental agreement. Otherwise if this is not in the lease agreement, even the owner can't evict their tenant for HOA violations. There is "Tenant's Rights" involved.

Now the rest of you eat my free advice alive. I love it when you insult me...

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
GeorgeB11, is this a condominium association?

This topic is discussed a great deal here. I think HOATalk members overwhelmingly favor rental restrictions. They are not fans of landlords owning homes in their communities.

From discussion here, the following is my take on the best options for one's governing documents to deter investor-landlords:

-- Amend the governing documents to limit rentals to 25% of all homes/units. This will require: grandfathering owners who are currently exercising their right to rent and having a waiting list policy. It's all do-able.

-- Equally effective and attractive is prohibiting new owners from renting for a one-year period after purchase. This seems to discourage investors.

-- I agree with everything, or darn near everything, CathyA3 says on this topic.

-- Here's a recent thread that has a link to a Washington Post article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/ . I think the thread and article are both worth reading.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/07/2022 5:09 AM

* Some HOAs/COAs actually limit the number of rentals in the community. This approach has some issues, one of which is difficulty in enforcing it. Our lawyer also told us not to do this based on his review of case law - he found instances of courts ruling that the limit is arbitrary. My personal opinion is that it is arbitrary and also discriminatory: it allows some owners to do something that others are prohibiting from doing. (Comment: you'll find folks on this website who disagree with my views on this.)
[Raising hand] This is one point with which I respectfully disagree. I went looking for appeals court and supreme court decisions on rental caps that a court threw out and turned up nothing. Granted I am not an attorney. It is possible that CathyA3's HOA/COA attorney reviewed parallel situations of some kind, concerning when an amendment is either arbitrary; unlawful due to treating owners as different classes; a tyranny of the majority; et cetera.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/07/2022 5:59 AM

-- Here's a recent thread that has a link to a Washington Post article:
Oops; the thread is here:
https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/323845/view/topic/Default.aspx
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/07/2022 6:03 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/07/2022 5:09 AM

* Some HOAs/COAs actually limit the number of rentals in the community. This approach has some issues, one of which is difficulty in enforcing it. Our lawyer also told us not to do this based on his review of case law - he found instances of courts ruling that the limit is arbitrary. My personal opinion is that it is arbitrary and also discriminatory: it allows some owners to do something that others are prohibiting from doing. (Comment: you'll find folks on this website who disagree with my views on this.)
[Raising hand] This is one point with which I respectfully disagree. I went looking for appeals court and supreme court decisions on rental caps that a court threw out and turned up nothing. Granted I am not an attorney. It is possible that CathyA3's HOA/COA attorney reviewed parallel situations of some kind, concerning when an amendment is either arbitrary; unlawful due to treating owners as different classes; a tyranny of the majority; et cetera.

Unfortunately I'm not on the board at the moment, so I can't ask him what he looked at. Too bad because I'd like to know. It may be that there were significant details, either in the communities or into their CC&Rs or state laws, that made the judges rule the way they did. I do remember the word "arbitrary" being used, though.

Another thing is that lending standards can change over time - for example, when the FHA limit dropped from 50% to 25% during the Great Recession, and then went back up to 50% when the real estate market recovered. So a 25% cap in the CC&Rs could be viewed as reasonable when prevailing lending standards are the same, but unreasonable or arbitrary after lending standards loosen up.

If that's what's going on, then writing the rental restriction with a floating cap tied to something like FHA standards may get around that difficultly. It would probably make it more difficult to administer, though.

This doesn't address my main objection, namely that some owners are allowed to do something that other owners aren't. That fits my definition of discriminatory, and the waiting list doesn't change my view. It may be lawful discrimination - but that doesn't change its nature, only its label.

IMHO, one of the guiding principles of HOAs and COAs is that all owners are subject to the same rules. There are exceptions such as reasonable accommodations that are required by law. But the ability to rent out one's unit doesn't rise to that standard in my view - especially since the Fair Housing laws are meant to level the playing field, while the rental cap does the opposite.

But others' mileage may vary.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
The short answer is that you can only restrict rentals if it is in your CC&Rs, but it can be more complicated. Most states probably have court precedents that have to be considered.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Another argument in favor of limiting the numbers of rental homes (from the Davis-Sterling website): your insurance carrier may raise your premiums due to the higher numbers of claims in communities with a lot of rentals.

Quote:

"Insurance Carriers & Lenders. The insurance industry has also recognized the problems associated with renters and takes notice when the rental percentage reaches 30-35%. Many preferred carriers draw the line at this percentage because claims histories have shown that associations with high rental populations have more claims. As a result, associations with excessive rentals are charged higher premiums. Lenders routinely ask for the percentage of rentals in a development, since a high percentage depresses market values."

So there are solid financial reasons for limiting rentals. A person could make the argument that it's a breach of the board's fiduciary duty to ignore the issue.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/07/2022 7:01 AM
Unfortunately I'm not on the board at the moment, so I can't ask him what he looked at. Too bad because I'd like to know. It may be that there were significant details, either in the communities or into their CC&Rs or state laws, that made the judges rule the way they did. I do remember the word "arbitrary" being used, though.
I continue to wonder if your COA's attorney looked at trial court decisions in Ohio. Plus I have yet to find a web site that says HOAs/COAs are taking a risk if they amend their governing documents to apply a rental cap. I find just the opposite: Many sites give advice on how to proceed to amend the governing documents so the HOA/COA has a rental cap.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 05/07/2022 8:12 AM
The short answer is that you can only restrict rentals if it is in your CC&Rs,
Which of course includes the option to amend the CC&Rs. Grandfathering is then important.

I am just not seeing any case law where rental caps per se have even been challenged.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I've also been looking and I'm not finding.

I think the whole topic of rental restrictions and the growing push by corporate landlords to buy up HOA/COA property would be an excellent item for one of our attorneys' training sessions. I may suggest it...
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Here's some related info from the Attorney General for those that live in Virginia:

http://blog.tarleyrobinson.com/?p=849
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/07/2022 1:51 PM
Here's some related info from the Attorney General for those that live in Virginia:

http://blog.tarleyrobinson.com/?p=849
Pretty interesting. Here's a summary quoting the 2011 Virginia Attorney General's opinion itself:

Issue Presented
You ask whether a homeowners' association, by duly recorded covenant, may limit the number of housing units within the association that may be offered for rent by the owner to tenants.

Response
It is my opinion that if properly written, adopted and enforced, and authorized as to purpose and not in conflict with an association's declarations, bylaws or rules and regulations, a homeowners' association may covenant to limit the number of housing units within the association that may be offered for rent by the owner to tenants.


The two-page opinion goes on discuss the law supporting this position.

For the full opinion, see the attachment.

Thank you, JohnT38.
📎 Attachments (1):

⏸ Downloads temporarily unavailable

📄15751598671.pdf(141 KB)
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I see the Virginia Attorney General cited, inter alia, this unpublished 2010 California appeals court decision:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Case-Law/Harrison-v-Sierra-Dawn

"Unpublished" means the opinion is not to be cited as precedent. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/U/Unpublished-Cases

In this lawsuit the plaintiffs challenged an amendment that placed numerous restrictions on rentals, including a rental cap. The plaintiffs claimed, among other things, arbitrariness.

The court said the amendment was lawful. The court further said the fact that there was no grandfathering was also lawful.

The opinion, unpublished as it is, does not settle anything. Yet we see a state attorney general all the way across the country citing it. So apparently it counts for something.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/07/2022 5:33 AM

My best advice is to have a rule to make owners have to have a lease agreement their tenants have to obey the HOA rules. Any violations can let the owner enforce cancelling the rental agreement. Otherwise if this is not in the lease agreement, even the owner can't evict their tenant for HOA violations. There is "Tenant's Rights" involved.

Now the rest of you eat my free advice alive. I love it when you insult me...

I am in the process of establishing a set of rental restrictions for our board to consider. That is an excellent addition, thanks.

I wonder if the lease could include a clause that the HOA could evict a tenant if they violate HOA rules.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
I am in the process of writing suggested rental restrictions (our Declaration specifies the board may regulate rental and leases) for our board to consider. We don't currently have an issue, but I want to get in front of this trend before it hits us. Here is what I have so far. I'd be interested in getting input and suggestions.

• Owner must notify us when a property is being rented/leased (perhaps compare physical address to mailing address to get an initial list)

• Owner must supply HOA with a copy of the lease

• No more than 10% of units may be leased at any given time.

• Owner cannot lease part of the residence, only the entire residence.

• Owners are responsible for renter’s violations (already stated in our Declarations)

• Lease must include a clause that specifies homeowner may (must?) evict tenant if they violate the association’s rules.

• The Lease term must be at least 6 months. The Declarations already require 30 days minimum, which is important in terms of not allowing AirBnB, and making sure the community is not considered a "public accommodation" which would subject us to several federal laws, such as ADA. Still, I believe six months would be better.

• Owner must live in unit at least one year before renting. This eliminates homes being purchased specifically for the purpose of income property. We could make it longer, but I believe we want to give people the option in case someone who intended to live here has a hardship case.

• Cap the number of tenants in a unit based on bedrooms (perhaps two tenants per bedroom)

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/08/2022 9:38 AM
I am in the process of writing suggested rental restrictions (our Declaration specifies the board may regulate rental and leases) for our board to consider.
...

• No more than 10% of units may be leased at any given time.

• Owner cannot lease part of the residence, only the entire residence.
Are these already in the Declaration? If not, then IMO these conflict with the Declaration and cannot be added unless the HOA amends the Declaration to add this cap and use restriction.
Quote:

• The Lease term must be at least 6 months. The Declarations already require 30 days minimum, which is important in terms of not allowing AirBnB,
Why is it you think a rule making the lease term more restrictive is not a conflict with the Declaration? Again, I do not think this is allowed unless the owners amend the Declaration.
Quote:

and making sure the community is not considered a "public accommodation" which would subject us to several federal laws, such as ADA.
Your HOA is already subject to the Fair Housing Act's prohibition on discriminating against the disabled. The latter is as strict as ADA law. IMO you're way off-base on this one.
Quote:

• Owner must live in unit at least one year before renting. This eliminates homes being purchased specifically for the purpose of income property. We could make it longer, but I believe we want to give people the option in case someone who intended to live here has a hardship case.
Again, this would require an amendment.
Quote:

• Cap the number of tenants in a unit based on bedrooms (perhaps two tenants per bedroom)
No. Find out what limits your city places on occupancy; remind people that they are subject to the city code's limits on occupancy; and the HOA will report violations to the city as appropriate.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
HOA's are faced with 2 issues when it comes to rentals:

1. There are no restrictions in the Covenants.
2. There are restrictions in the Covenants but people want more/stricter restrictions.

Either way, it is a Covenant Amendment and any addition must be done as such. The best way to help an amendment pass is to "Grandfather" existing owners in.

Nothing can be done via a BOD Ruling so do not even try that method.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
You should consult with the HOA attorney, although coming up with a wish list or best practices list is fine. The lawyer is going to have to write the amendment in any case.

Laws governing rental restrictions vary by state, and are also limited by what's already in your CC&Rs, so that's where you need to start.

Someone mentioned tenants' rights in another thread, but by and large the HOA/COA does not have a legal relationship with the tenant, only with the owner of the unit. It's up the unit owner to make sure his lease complies with that state's landlord-tenant laws. It's *not* up to the association to make sure tenants get a fair shake. There are a few exceptions where the HOA/COA can get involved in rentals, but it's not common. There are also some states where boards risk getting sued if they interfere at all in the landlord-tenant relationship (to the point where board members don't talk to tenants at all for liability reasons).

Requiring that leases contain an article stating that the tenant must obey the community's CC&Rs and other rules is generally fine. Requiring that the landlord provide a copy of the lease is generally fine. Requiring that the landlord provide contact info for the tenant is often fine, but that may be more appropriate for condos because units are attached.

Consider whether or not you also need to amend your rules about fines (if your governing docs allow such).

Something that I spotted in another community's declaration that's related to this: This declaration required 100% approval from the membership in order to dissolve the condo association. This would make a condo community a less attractive target for corporate owners who want to de-convert, and it would prevent the last remaining owners from getting low-ball offers or being evicted (which has happened in communities where the percentage needed to approve is lower). So this may be a good idea, although I suspect it has some unintended consequences as well. Examples of unintended consequences: one or two holdouts vote No just to be difficult, or some owners don't vote at all). Hmmmm... I thought this was a great idea, but I've talked myself out of it. :-)
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 11:07 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/08/2022 9:38 AM
I am in the process of writing suggested rental restrictions (our Declaration specifies the board may regulate rental and leases) for our board to consider.
...

• No more than 10% of units may be leased at any given time.

• Owner cannot lease part of the residence, only the entire residence.
Are these already in the Declaration? If not, then IMO these conflict with the Declaration and cannot be added unless the HOA amends the Declaration to add this cap and use restriction.
Quote:

• The Lease term must be at least 6 months. The Declarations already require 30 days minimum, which is important in terms of not allowing AirBnB,
Why is it you think a rule making the lease term more restrictive is not a conflict with the Declaration? Again, I do not think this is allowed unless the owners amend the Declaration.
Quote:

and making sure the community is not considered a "public accommodation" which would subject us to several federal laws, such as ADA.
Your HOA is already subject to the Fair Housing Act's prohibition on discriminating against the disabled. The latter is as strict as ADA law. IMO you're way off-base on this one.
Quote:

• Owner must live in unit at least one year before renting. This eliminates homes being purchased specifically for the purpose of income property. We could make it longer, but I believe we want to give people the option in case someone who intended to live here has a hardship case.
Again, this would require an amendment.
Quote:

• Cap the number of tenants in a unit based on bedrooms (perhaps two tenants per bedroom)
No. Find out what limits your city places on occupancy; remind people that they are subject to the city code's limits on occupancy; and the HOA will report violations to the city as appropriate.


I'm confused, then. Our Declarations state this:

Rentals.
The Declarant or Corporation may from time to time adopt rules
and regulations pertaining to the rental of dwellings. Lot Owners of rented dwellings shall be
personally liable for the failure of a tenant or any invitee of a tenant to abide by rules and
regulations pertaining to the use or occupancy of the Planned Community.

It sounds as if we can't do much of substance to prevent our community from being overtaken by corporations purchasing homes for the purpose of renting them.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Capping the number of tenants based on home size may be difficult, but your local municipality may already limit the number of unrelated adults that may live in a home. So check those. If your local zoning regulations can do the heavy lifting, you're better off.

Re: the short term leases, in addition to requiring a minimum lease term of 6 months, our declaration says no corporate or hotel style rentals. You don't want even longer-term airbnb's (I assume). The legal relationship between a unit owner and a bona fide tenant with a lease is different from that between the owner and an airbnb customer. This *may* have insurance implications, especially if the customers use your amenities. And the unit owner has less leverage with customers as far as controlling bad behavior. For one thing, the owner may or may not be able to put behavior requirements into airbnb's documents.

Keep 'em out!
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/08/2022 11:35 AM

I'm confused, then. Our Declarations state this:

Rentals.
The Declarant or Corporation may from time to time adopt rules
and regulations pertaining to the rental of dwellings. Lot Owners of rented dwellings shall be
personally liable for the failure of a tenant or any invitee of a tenant to abide by rules and
regulations pertaining to the use or occupancy of the Planned Community.

It sounds as if we can't do much of substance to prevent our community from being overtaken by corporations purchasing homes for the purpose of renting them.
Board-created rules cannot supersede, or conflict with, what is already in the Declaration. If a Board-created rule does attempt to supersede the Declaration (or conflicts with the Declaration), then this represents the Board's (perhaps unwitting) attempt to amend the Declaration without getting the required owners' vote.

Remember that the Declaration is a contract. Folks buy into HOAs relying on the concreteness of the contractual terms. Per the Declaration, these contractual terms can only be changed by a super-majority vote of the owners.

It appears in the case of your HOA, the Board cannot do much unless it takes the steps to arrange an owners' vote to amend.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/08/2022 11:35 AM
... snip ...

I'm confused, then. Our Declarations state this:

Rentals.
The Declarant or Corporation may from time to time adopt rules
and regulations pertaining to the rental of dwellings. Lot Owners of rented dwellings shall be
personally liable for the failure of a tenant or any invitee of a tenant to abide by rules and
regulations pertaining to the use or occupancy of the Planned Community.

It sounds as if we can't do much of substance to prevent our community from being overtaken by corporations purchasing homes for the purpose of renting them.

It sounds to me like to you'd be able to do things such as fining the unit owner for CC&R violations by the tenant (a *very* common thing) and requiring the unit owner to put something in the lease document stating that the tenant is obligated to abide by the community's rules (also very common).

No, you can't stop corporations from buying homes to rent out unless your CC&Rs plain, flat out prohibit all rentals. Assuming you can't amend your CC&Rs to say that, then a rental restriction like the ones we've been talking about can get you part way by prohibiting any renting during the first so many months of ownership and/or by having a rental cap.

The trick is to pass a robust rental restriction amendment before you have too many landlords, and to enforce all of your restrictions. Investor owners have to be cash-flow positive in order for renting to make financial sense, and if a tenant is misbehaving and racking up fines for the owner, that's money flowing out of the investor's pockets. Something like this can discourage casual or newbie investors.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
One thing that stops many investors is a Covenant restriction that says an owner cannot rent their unit for the first year of their ownership. This is an amendment that seems to me would have a good chance of passing.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Cathy

I believe there was an IL court ruling that unless otherwise stated in one's Covenants that 80% (maybe 90%) of the owners could dissolve the corporation as in sell the association to an investor/convert to rental units.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/08/2022 12:43 PM
One thing that stops many investors is a Covenant restriction that says an owner cannot rent their unit for the first year of their ownership. This is an amendment that seems to me would have a good chance of passing.

It easily passed in our community.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/08/2022 12:46 PM
Cathy

I believe there was an IL court ruling that unless otherwise stated in one's Covenants that 80% (maybe 90%) of the owners could dissolve the corporation as in sell the association to an investor/convert to rental units.

According to our Declaration it's 75%, same as for most other amendments. There are just a few things need 100% approval, and they involve changing the par value of the units, structural changes affecting common elements vs. units, changing how assessments are calculated, and the like. (We're condos.)

I just hadn't thought of the 100% approval in conjunction with making the property unattractive to corporate investors. After thinking about it, I decided that would be like using a sledgehammer as a flyswatter.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/08/2022 11:56 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/08/2022 11:35 AM
... snip ...

I'm confused, then. Our Declarations state this:

Rentals.
The Declarant or Corporation may from time to time adopt rules
and regulations pertaining to the rental of dwellings. Lot Owners of rented dwellings shall be
personally liable for the failure of a tenant or any invitee of a tenant to abide by rules and
regulations pertaining to the use or occupancy of the Planned Community.

It sounds as if we can't do much of substance to prevent our community from being overtaken by corporations purchasing homes for the purpose of renting them.


It sounds to me like to you'd be able to do things such as fining the unit owner for CC&R violations by the tenant (a *very* common thing) and requiring the unit owner to put something in the lease document stating that the tenant is obligated to abide by the community's rules (also very common).

No, you can't stop corporations from buying homes to rent out unless your CC&Rs plain, flat out prohibit all rentals. Assuming you can't amend your CC&Rs to say that, then a rental restriction like the ones we've been talking about can get you part way by prohibiting any renting during the first so many months of ownership and/or by having a rental cap.

The trick is to pass a robust rental restriction amendment before you have too many landlords, and to enforce all of your restrictions. Investor owners have to be cash-flow positive in order for renting to make financial sense, and if a tenant is misbehaving and racking up fines for the owner, that's money flowing out of the investor's pockets. Something like this can discourage casual or newbie investors.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

So we can do a few minor things, but the important changes would need to be an amendment. While that is difficult, I am confident that at this time there would be a near unanimous agreement to take aggressive action to prevent this from being a problem; specifically because, as you say, we have very few landlords at this time.

I guess the best course of action is to continue with my list, then get attorney opinion on which the board can take action on under the clause allowing us to regulate rentals and which would require an amendment, as well as which ones would not be enforceable.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.
ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.

cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened

This example is about a community that was already under siege by investors. Our community had roughly 10% rentals when we added the restriction. We did this to prevent what happened in this article and keep investors from getting a foothold in.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened

I've seen just the opposite.

Too many rentals mean that buyers won't be able to obtain financing, which will limit the potential pool of buyers. That's fact. The community's insurance profile will also change, leading to higher premiums and making the community less affordable - this also discourages buyers. Having too many renters also is correlated with increased CC&R violations and the community becoming run down.

I've said here many times that for an owner-occupant, having too many renters is the worst of both worlds: the disadvantages that go with rental communities plus the responsibilities of home ownership. If I'm going to live around a bunch of transients, I want the benefits of being a transient myself.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.

Based on my experience with amending our rental restriction, the large majority of homeowners don't understand what's at stake - they can't see farther than their own noses.

In this case, if the board wants to try for an amendment, they need to spell out the risks of not having a robust rental restriction as well as its benefits.

The ironic thing is that rentals in HOAs and COAs are attractive investments because they can be rented out at top dollar, which in turn is because renters want the benefits of an owner-occupied community. By buying up properties, the investors are destroying the thing that makes these properties valuable.

Capping the number of rentals actually benefits both the owner-occupants and the landlords who have an attractive product that is in limited supply.
ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/09/2022 3:31 AM
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened


This example is about a community that was already under siege by investors. Our community had roughly 10% rentals when we added the restriction. We did this to prevent what happened in this article and keep investors from getting a foothold in.

your logic doesnt' make any sense at all. with the hot market rental corporations can pay TOP DOLLAR for homes . this is shown in the news all the time, big corp out bids small family to get homes.

if your hoa has a full rental cap, then big corp cant' offer top dollar that simple.
ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/09/2022 3:31 AM
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened


This example is about a community that was already under siege by investors. Our community had roughly 10% rentals when we added the restriction. We did this to prevent what happened in this article and keep investors from getting a foothold in.

your logic doesnt' make any sense at all. with the hot market rental corporations can pay TOP DOLLAR for homes . this is shown in the news all the time, big corp out bids small family to get homes.

if your hoa has a full rental cap, then big corp cant' offer top dollar that simple.
ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/09/2022 3:31 AM
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened


This example is about a community that was already under siege by investors. Our community had roughly 10% rentals when we added the restriction. We did this to prevent what happened in this article and keep investors from getting a foothold in.

your logic doesnt' make any sense at all. with the hot market rental corporations can pay TOP DOLLAR for homes . this is shown in the news all the time, big corp out bids small family to get homes.

if your hoa has a full rental cap, then big corp cant' offer top dollar that simple.
ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/09/2022 3:31 AM
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened


This example is about a community that was already under siege by investors. Our community had roughly 10% rentals when we added the restriction. We did this to prevent what happened in this article and keep investors from getting a foothold in.

your logic doesnt' make any sense at all. with the hot market rental corporations can pay TOP DOLLAR for homes . this is shown in the news all the time, big corp out bids small family to get homes.

if your hoa has a full rental cap, then big corp cant' offer top dollar that simple.
ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/09/2022 3:31 AM
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened


This example is about a community that was already under siege by investors. Our community had roughly 10% rentals when we added the restriction. We did this to prevent what happened in this article and keep investors from getting a foothold in.

your logic doesnt' make any sense at all. with the hot market rental corporations can pay TOP DOLLAR for homes . this is shown in the news all the time, big corp out bids small family to get homes.

if your hoa has a full rental cap, then big corp cant' offer top dollar that simple.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/09/2022 5:16 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 05/09/2022 3:31 AM
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/08/2022 10:41 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/08/2022 4:39 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 05/08/2022 4:25 PM
I think you will find that many (even those who never intend to be landlords) will be reluctant to vote away that option for themselves.
Why do you say this?

Time and again I see reports of rental restrictions like John's (one year ownership before a new owner can rent) and rental caps successfully becoming amendments.

Unless like 35% or more of a HOA/COA are already rentals, I think one will find rental restrictions, when presented as amendments, tend to pass.


cause if they sell their home they might get $13,000 less for it when there is a rental cap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/31/charlotte-rental-homes-landlords/

article above , thats exactly what happened


This example is about a community that was already under siege by investors. Our community had roughly 10% rentals when we added the restriction. We did this to prevent what happened in this article and keep investors from getting a foothold in.


your logic doesnt' make any sense at all. with the hot market rental corporations can pay TOP DOLLAR for homes . this is shown in the news all the time, big corp out bids small family to get homes.

if your hoa has a full rental cap, then big corp cant' offer top dollar that simple.

Actually, too many rentals in a neighborhood can absolutely drive down both property values and quality of life. It's possible that an influx of investment in a neighborhood can temporarily drive values up. However, the long term affects are absolutely related to a decrease in the maintenance of homes and lawns, an increase in violations and crime, and ultimately a decrease in property values.

ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/09/2022 4:27 AM
Posted By
Capping the number of rentals actually benefits both the owner-occupants and the landlords who have an attractive product that is in limited supply.

HUH? if the big rental corp offers a seller 15% more than any single buyer will pay, but they can't buy the home due to a rental cap how does that benefit the seller. The seller couldn't care less because they are moving out of the neighborhood. most sellers realize this and therefore vote down rental caps.

Also the pandemic has proved that strictly enforced CCR increasing home values is an economic falsehood.
Many HOA's relaxed CCR enforcement or were more lienient during the pandemic. My own neighborhood did this. guess what, Home values have soared. Why? Well Geoge Bush said this" It's the economy, stupid!"

HOA regulations dont' increase home values, today's economy proves the economy increases home values.
rental caps dont' increase home values, they prevent big corp from paying top dollar.
ThadC2 (Florida)
Posts: 820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/09/2022 5:46 AM

Actually, too many rentals in a neighborhood can absolutely drive down both property values and quality of life. It's possible that an influx of investment in a neighborhood can temporarily drive values up. However, the long term affects are absolutely related to a decrease in the maintenance of homes and lawns, an increase in violations and crime, and ultimately a decrease in property values.

Well man, that's just like your opinion. Prove it with an economic study. I really hope you reply so I can show you more data.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/09/2022 7:24 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/09/2022 5:46 AM

Actually, too many rentals in a neighborhood can absolutely drive down both property values and quality of life. It's possible that an influx of investment in a neighborhood can temporarily drive values up. However, the long term affects are absolutely related to a decrease in the maintenance of homes and lawns, an increase in violations and crime, and ultimately a decrease in property values.


Well man, that's just like your opinion. Prove it with an economic study. I really hope you reply so I can show you more data.

Link between rentals and crime:
https://vig.coopercenter.org/sites/vig/files/crime_paper.pdf

"For three types of incidents (disturbances, assaults, and drugs), landlord remoteness from properties is positively associated with reported criminal activity. This association may be caused by management quality deterioration due to the increased costs of conducting business from a distance or a remote landlord’s ability to ignore some of the external costs imposed by tenant misbehavior on neighbors. Nonresident landlords may be less selective in choice of tenants, more accommodating of behavior and lifestyles that they would not accept if located ‘next door’ to their own residence,and less likely to employ effective surveillance and security measures."

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/09/2022 7:19 AM

HUH? if the big rental corp offers a seller 15% more than any single buyer will pay, but they can't buy the home due to a rental cap how does that benefit the seller. The seller couldn't care less because they are moving out of the neighborhood. most sellers realize this and therefore vote down rental caps.
Someone who has her/his home on the market, or plans to put her/his home on the market, might vote down rental caps, but this is only sellers.

If you have proof that owner-residents in HOAs/COAs tend to vote against rental caps, do present it.

Quote:
Posted By ThadC2 on 05/09/2022 7:24 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/09/2022 5:46 AM

Actually, too many rentals in a neighborhood can absolutely drive down both property values and quality of life. It's possible that an influx of investment in a neighborhood can temporarily drive values up. However, the long term affects are absolutely related to a decrease in the maintenance of homes and lawns, an increase in violations and crime, and ultimately a decrease in property values.


Well man, that's just like your opinion. Prove it with an economic study. I really hope you reply so I can show you more data.


Fact: The more rentals a community has, the less likely the FHA will approve a loan, and the lower the pool of buyers becomes. Why? Because the FHA says more rentals = bigger risk of deteriorating property values = bigger risk to lenders.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
FYI:

FHA-backed sales made up 19.3% of new home sales in the first quarter of 2021, a 1.0 percentage point increase, quarter-over-quarter and 1.6 percentage points higher than Q1 2020.

If unable to get an FHA loan, this removes 20% of all buyers. Nothing to sneeze at.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I believe that most will agree that in an HOA, renters are a larger part/cause of problems then owners are. For this reason alone I would limit them. Few renters have "Pride of Ownership".
SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeB11 on 05/06/2022 10:35 PM
There have been several recent articles about HOAs placing restrictions on rental properties -- corporations which buy homes then rent them out.
Does your HOA have any such restrictions or is it considering such restrictions?

The motivations behind excluding investors from purchasing CIC property may not align with the duty of care and fiduciary duty required of CIC volunteer directors. Does it make a difference *WHO* occupies a residence and/or whether it is occupied at all? YES, BUT it is not the place of a CIC to dictate occupancy. It would be interesting to roundtable in an online meeting with communities that are in this position. I'd love to talk more about it with you or anyone interested!

Article: https://therealdeal.com/2022/04/18/homeowner-associations-look-to-box-out-investors/

Regards,
Steve
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/09/2022 1:58 PM
I believe that most will agree that in an HOA, renters are a larger part/cause of problems then owners are. For this reason alone I would limit them. Few renters have "Pride of Ownership".

I agree 100% The actions of several of our renters is what motivated us to add the rental restriction in our new docs.

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