Responsibilities and Expectations

Started by BarbaraT1 • 7 replies • 227 views

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BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

In another forum I got myself into an argument with someone who i a board member over what a manager's responsibility is. Not on my board just a stranger on the internet who serves on a board. Was curious to see other perspectives.

There are some sheds in their community that were installed without approval. Had approval been sought, it wouldn't have been given. Once the board became aware of these sheds, they decided it would be too difficult and costly to get them removed, so now whenever someone wants a shed like the unapproved ones, this board member has to explain that it's all the fault of their (since fired) "inept" manager, who has "sole responsibility" for the entire situation.

I argued that first and foremost the homeowner who installed a shed without approval is responsible for the existence of the unapproved shed. And yes, the task of violation enforcement is the managers responsibility, but board members who live in the neighborhood are better positioned to notice that a new shed has appeared in someone's yard than a manager who drives through one of several properties twice a month and can't reasonably be expected to have memorized the exterior appearance of every house to the point that she can instantly notice anything has changed. And certainly the manager isn't responsible for the board's decision to not do anything about the sheds now that they are aware of them.

Is it unreasonable to think that board members could drive around their neighborhoods once in a while and send the manager an email about a loose fence board or a dead shrub or a flagpole that they didn't remember seeing last week, and ask the manager to look into it? Is there no middle ground between doing nothing and making it entirely the manager's responsibility and walking around with a clip board and a measuring tape?

This manager may have indeed been inept. Or she may have been overworked or just a human being capable of making mistakes.

The argument really upset me. Even with one property to manage, I can't be in front of every house and every square inch of common area all the time, at the same time. (And also always in the office in case someone wants to stop by for pool card or to pick up a paper form because they don't know how to fill in a PDF or because they just want to chat.)

For the entirety of my career I've been baffled at the tendency of owners to blame me for the choices and behavior of their neighbors. Why are they mad at me for not being able to instantly force their neighbor to mow their lawn, instead of being mad at the neighbor not mowing their lawn? (Charitably assuming their neighbor might have a reason for not being able to mow the lawn is of course, way too much to ask!)

I had a homeowner come to my office and dump a bag of litter onto my desk, berate me for its existence on the property and demand that I (somehow) track down the person responsible for each piece of trash and fine them. Because in addition to being responsible for everyone's behavior I am also apparently psychic.

I am just so tired of being held responsible for everything when I have direct control over almost nothing. The flowers up front are dead because there's an irrigation leak so the sprinklers are turned off and this happened to occur right when there were three consecutive days of hot, sunny weather. The repairs have been approved and are scheduled and the flowers will be replaced in a week or so. I didn't cut the line to cause the leak or stop if from raining, please stop screaming at me. I didn't hop over someone's fence and run an offensive flag up their flagpole and I can't hop over their fence and tear it down either, please stop screaming at me. It's being handled like every other violation - which is via the policy posted on the HOA website along with a bunch of other information that nobody ever bothers to proactively look for because it's easier to just ask me the same questions over and over again (and then complain that I haven't answered your email that you sent 15 minutes ago because why can't I constantly check emails while simultaneously being in front of every house and every inch of common area all the time, at the same time.)

I am extremely sympathetic to owners who don't understand how an HOA works. On the whole, I think the real estate industry does a terrible job of explaining and providing true disclosure. But I also think anyone buying a house is capable of doing some basic research. When you move to a new city, a police officer doesn't stop by with a map and an explanation of every single traffic sign and light. We are expected to pay attention and read the signs and know what we are supposed to do and do it! You can't get out of a ticket by arguing that no one personally explained to you that you can't run a red light and someone else somewhere in the world ran a red light without getting stopped so you shouldn't be. I don't understand why, in HOAs, nobody is responsible for their own actions or inactions. It's always the manager's fault for not telling them, or not telling them the right way, or not telling them soon enough.

I probably can't say all this at an annual meeting, can I?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/28/2022 8:29 AM
In another forum I got myself into an argument with someone who i a board member over what a manager's responsibility is. Not on my board just a stranger on the internet who serves on a board. Was curious to see other perspectives.

There are some sheds in their community that were installed without approval. Had approval been sought, it wouldn't have been given. Once the board became aware of these sheds, they decided it would be too difficult and costly to get them removed, so now whenever someone wants a shed like the unapproved ones, this board member has to explain that it's all the fault of their (since fired) "inept" manager, who has "sole responsibility" for the entire situation. [snip] And certainly the manager isn't responsible for the board's decision to not do anything about the sheds now that they are aware of them.

My take is roughly yours: Once this Board learned of the violation, it should have instantly issued a violation. And chances are how long the sheds have existed is not relevant. To say more about what the Board should have done, I would need more details. But the fault here is entirely the Board's, not the manager's. Saying the fault is the manager's is dumb. AFAIC, what this other forum's member said about this is evidence of this person's naivete.

As for how some owners are abusive to you: In some of these cases, and if I were on the Board, I would want to know. I would support issuing violation notices if I could finger a clause in the covenants that said the HOA/COA could. I would also support the HOA/COA attorney issuing cease and desist letters to owners who are over-the-line abusive. Why? Because I would feel it is a fiduciary duty to ensure a manager does not burn out or worse, gets hurt. Safety is everything, to the extent the HOA/COA has a duty to ensure safety (of either the workplace or the HOA/COA in general).

GregM14 (Washington)
Posts: 81

Posted:

Barbara,

I don't know if this will offend you and other property managers or not, but this is how I take mine:

I think of our property manager as a highly capable offsite secretary. She works at Board direction. We can ask her to any type of secretarial / administrative work that one can accomplish offsite. The typical tasks might include sending out e-mail blasts, sending out letters to homeowners, counting electronic votes prior to the annual meeting, communicating with homeowners via e-mail, accepting ACC applications and forwarding them to the ACC committee, notifying homeowners of Board decisions. These are all basic secretarial tasks that can readily be handled offsite.

Anytime that we have tried to have her handle tasks that need someone onsite to coordinate, she has failed. Thus, I don't try to have her manage our projects, handle vendor coordination, or the like. Those things are all done better if we as Board volunteers handle them.

We don't use our property manager as a fall person per se, although we do ask her to send out communication to homeowners on behalf the board so she receives responses rather than us. Of course, she simply collects the responses and puts them in our monthly meeting packet that she puts together for us.

I'm sorry to hear that the other forum comment upset you.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

When we hired our MC, one of the optional services they offered was on-site inspections. We opted not to have them do it. We rely on owners noticing things and several BOD Members do tour the neighborhood and noting any violations. Our MC does handle sending violation notices.

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

Everything you wrote is reasonable and I agree. Deed restriction violations are every owner's responsibility. I'm not saying each owner has a duty to drive around and report every violation they see, but if a violation bothers them, they should take the initiative to report it. If they don't, they have nothing to complain about.

I don't think a board member has a duty to drive around looking for violations but if they are that concerned about it, they certainly can. Again, if they are not reporting the violations, they have nothing to complain about.

In the end, the board has ultimate responsibility for everything. I am sure it is tempting to blame all past sins on the person who is no longer there but they are just deflecting their own failures.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GregM14 on 04/28/2022 8:53 AM
Barbara,

I don't know if this will offend you and other property managers or not, but this is how I take mine:

I think of our property manager as a highly capable offsite secretary. She works at Board direction. We can ask her to any type of secretarial / administrative work that one can accomplish offsite. The typical tasks might include sending out e-mail blasts, sending out letters to homeowners, counting electronic votes prior to the annual meeting, communicating with homeowners via e-mail, accepting ACC applications and forwarding them to the ACC committee, notifying homeowners of Board decisions. These are all basic secretarial tasks that can readily be handled offsite.

Anytime that we have tried to have her handle tasks that need someone onsite to coordinate, she has failed. Thus, I don't try to have her manage our projects, handle vendor coordination, or the like. Those things are all done better if we as Board volunteers handle them.

We don't use our property manager as a fall person per se, although we do ask her to send out communication to homeowners on behalf the board so she receives responses rather than us. Of course, she simply collects the responses and puts them in our monthly meeting packet that she puts together for us.

I'm sorry to hear that the other forum comment upset you.

I'm not personally offended- I do see myself as more than a secretary but I'm not your manager! It sounds like you are getting the level of service commensurate with the fees, time and capabilities of an offsite manager with multiple properties in her portfolio. I wish more board members understood that. When I train new board members I say "you can delegate tasks, but not responsibilities."

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

My take is that the board preferred to throw the manager under the bus rather than take on the uncomfortable responsibility of dealing with the sheds. The board could have requested more thorough inspections by the PM - but that costs money. They also should have spelled out their expectations to make sure everyone was on the same page and nothing was falling through the cracks. And if there were performance issues with the PM, it was up to the board to address them. If everybody dropped the ball (it happens), acknowledge the issues and fix them.

The buck always stops with the board, whether they like it or not.

I agree that nobody - the PM or the board - will be able to have their eyes on every square foot of a community. We told our homeowners that they were our partners and should let us know if they spotted something - they're more likely to know when something in their immediate area is wrong. We expected our PM to pick up major issues when she came through the community, not the nit-picky stuff - my fellow board members and I did more thorough walk-throughss periodically.

PMs are like everybody else: some aren't so good, others are rock stars. As a board member I viewed our (rock star) PM as a valued partner and treated her accordingly.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I admit I’m spoiled by our property managers because we’ve had three excellent ones since I moved to the community. I also know it took time for the community to find its way – one of our former presidents told me the community tried the self managed route and then went through three or four property management companies before our current one (they were a local company that took over before I moved in. It’s since been bought out by one of the large national HOA management companies – I won’t say the name, but some of you probably know who I’m talking about.)

As to your comments, I agree with most of what you said. I think part of the problem is the tendency of many people to expect five-star service at dollar store prices. It’s not that the dollar store can’t provide good service, but you get what you pay for, and if you want the property manager to do A-Z forwards and backwards, you’d better be willing to pay for it.

Another problem is that people don’t recognize or respect boundaries. Years ago, the CAI website provided a number of articles that could be printed in HOA newsletters or posted on websites, and one addressed the responsibilities of the property manager vs. the board. I was newsletter editor at the time and published that article with some editing to address our community’s issues – and had the other board members AND property manager read it, so people could add additional information or clarify some things. I think that may be a start to resolving some of this – HOAs need to ensure homeowners understand who does what from the beginning so they don’t waste everyone’s time screaming at the wrong people.

Third, the board needs to be clear in what it wants the property manager to do – and then get the hell out of the way and let him/her do it. I’ve seen a number of conversations on this website where people were mad at the property manager because they assumed he/she was supposed to do certain things or not.

Or they micromanage half to death and drive the property manager crazy with three, five or everyone on the board emailing or calling the office with “no, that’s not what you’re supposed to do” Have they discussed any of this with their colleagues? Hell no because (1) they weren’t paying attention during the board meeting when the decision was made (2) voted with everyone else because they didn’t want to look stupid or (3) don’t care what their colleagues think because they’re all idiots anyway and THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO

Conversely, there are some property managers who might be aware of certain things and try to prevent the board from doing what they know isn’t appropriate. I understand and appreciate their desire to protect the association from more drama and a smackdown in the wallet, but they have to remember that you can’t always protect people from themselves. It’s ok to make suggestions, but then you must be quiet and let the board decide. Tell them it’s not your place to make those decisions and they have to do the best they can. And yes, there are property managers who take advantage and it doesn’t help that some boards let the property manager do their thinking for them – and then howl when a decision falls apart. Or hide behind the property manager (but, but HE told us we could do this!)

You have a property manager and an attorney – they’re not the same thing, so quit asking the property manager for legal advice. The attorney may not know the ins and outs of sewer line repair, caring for diseased trees or which electrical company provides excellent quality of service when repairing elevators. No one person knows everything - figure out what you want and determine the best place to get the information you need, and then pursue it, review the pros and cons carefully and THEN make a decision.

That’s why board members have to take the time to READ the management agreement. Yes, the legalese is boring and hard to understand, but as a board member, it’s your responsibility to have some idea of what these contracts say (or not). From time to time, it’s a good idea to review the contract to see if you’d like to add services, modify others or even terminate the contract if the manager isn’t doing the job.

Before that happens, take the time to discuss problems with the property manager first – he/she can’t resolve problems if they aren’t aware of them. Honesty is key here, but both sides should be adult enough to discuss their concerns in a professional manner.

The following is for you, Greg. You say your property manager hasn’t done a good job in handling tasks that needs an onsite person to coordinate. The first time that happened, did anyone sit down with her to discuss what happened or not, and how to prevent it from happening again? If she has a supervisor and the same thing happened over and over, did you bring HER/HIM into the discussion to discuss root causes and see what can be done to resolve them so she can do her job? Do YOU even know what the root causes are?

Her lack of organization could be an issue, but is it possible you and the rest of the board commenced with the micromanaging and mixed everything up (be honest)? Maybe you asked her to work a major project at the same time she had to put together the management reports for the next board meeting – I don’t remember how large your community is, but those things can take time to prepare. Has there been talk of a performance improvement plan and have you given her time to work the plan?

If you want an offsite secretary, that’s fine, but if you want a property manager, you should know by now to do the job right takes time, planning and a fairly specialized skill set. At this point, you can either stick to what you have or go ahead and look for another property manager – this time, be clear in what you expect and how problems can be prevented BEFORE you sign on the dotted line.

So that’s one person’s opinion.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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