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SteveM40 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Our Social Committee would like to sponsor a community wide annual yard sale, but our governing documents contain the following:

6.42 Garage Sales. No garage sales or other private sales of a similar nature shall be permitted at any time in the Community, it being the specific intention of the Declarant to preserve the distinct nature and character of the Community as developed.

The Board seems to be okay with allowing it, but as the Board Secretary I have a concern voting to allow something expressly prohibited. Personally, I have no issue other than the document. The board president plans to bring this to a vote at next weeks board meeting.

Any advice or legal opinion?

Thanks,
Steve
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Steve

I say do it and if necessary, have your BOD send itself a violation warning letter after it is all over.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I am really trying to shave off the edges of that square legal peg to make it fit into the round legal hole that are the covenants. But it is a battle.

How about requiring that 5% of all proceeds of each person's garage sale must go to the HOA, as the HOA will do significant advertising? There. Now one can argue it is not a "private sale." But oops. Now the HOA has income to report. On the other hand, this is what is called "income from members" and so should not be taxable.

Else I think you are right. To allow a community-wide garage sale, an amendment of the covenants (and so owners' vote) is needed.

A board purposely violating a covenant is legally unwise. For one thing, in the future, an owner could ask you to violate another covenant, because doing so seems so sensible. It's potentially a slippery slope.

Stay tuned. Maybe someone has a way to get around this. Or maybe enough people will say: Just roll the dice and have the sale. It's a great way to keep old couches from landing on the curb for a week.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
The question is if someone in the future has a yard sale and tells the Board to shove it when told it's a violation how will the Board respond?
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I think the operative word is "the intention of the Declarant". Is the declarant anywhere to contest?
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Hold the sale outside of the community. Rent some space in a community center or someplace that rents out spaces either inside or outside for the sale. Every participant can share in the cost of the rental. This way no extra traffic in your neighborhood and no potential problems with violating the community rules. And no concern about further neighborhood sales. They can get fairly constant in a large neighborhood.

My family and friends did this and it was very successful. It just means each participant has to haul their items to the sale site.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/15/2022 12:33 PM
I am really trying to shave off the edges of that square legal peg to make it fit into the round legal hole that are the covenants. But it is a battle.

How about requiring that 5% of all proceeds of each person's garage sale must go to the HOA, as the HOA will do significant advertising? There. Now one can argue it is not a "private sale." But oops. Now the HOA has income to report. On the other hand, this is what is called "income from members" and so should not be taxable.

Else I think you are right. To allow a community-wide garage sale, an amendment of the covenants (and so owners' vote) is needed.

A board purposely violating a covenant is legally unwise. For one thing, in the future, an owner could ask you to violate another covenant, because doing so seems so sensible. It's potentially a slippery slope.

Stay tuned. Maybe someone has a way to get around this. Or maybe enough people will say: Just roll the dice and have the sale. It's a great way to keep old couches from landing on the curb for a week.

have each owner drag their shit to the club house, staffed by the management company...then its not a garage sale nor a private sale.

===============
but in all seriousness, the CCR's are what the CCR's say. Are you willing to violate this CCR (which breaches the Directors fiduciary duty to the HOA), and open the door to further ingore-the-ccr requests? If you allow this, then anyone can claim ability to hold a yard sale at any other time of year.

Either amend the CCR's or comply with the CCR's.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
BancsS's and AdamL1's suggestions have merit. What's a "private sale" anyway? If all owners are invited to participate, and it's open to the public, isn't it a "HOA sale"? I think BancksS' and AdamL1's suggestions have merit.

My former HOA had a day dedicated to picking up any clutter people did not want. I believe the HOA paid for the truck rental, and the city provided support (including T-shirts and bottled water!) as part of a bigger, city-wide movement to clean up.

I will say it was a great social event, with a lot of laughter and cheery volunteers and owners alike.
SteveM40 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
The Declarant is gone, we transitioned 3 years ago. We are in the midst of doing the document rewrite to remove any reference. I don't believe it matters if the Declarant is present, the addition of the reason that article in the declaration doesn't change the prohibition even without the Declarant.

My suggestion is that the membership vote to allow annual yead sales and we modify the article to so state. Since we have to have a membership vote for the rewritten document, seems logical to me.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Steve
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
IF the board majority votes to permit the yard sale as described, make sure you vote no and ask that your reason be on the record. If later there's a legal issue, you personally won't be guilty of violating the covenants.

I hope your folks do vote to held an any annual years sale. To me, anything that fosters more interaction among neighbors is healthy for an HOA.

No yard sales occur in our neighhood of high rises, but a few such HOAs have hired a firm that brings a huge paper shredder bin that outdated HOA stuff can go in and residents may use it too. Seems like it would fit really well with a neighborhood yard sale.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
I guess I am in the minority here, but if your governing documents say no yard sales, the HOA cannot sponsor a once per year annual yard sale. That is a violation of your governing documents.

You can, however, revise your documents.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I wrote my last reply incorrectly: I should have written; your owner need vote to amend the governing doc so that "an annual yard sale can be conducted simultaneously by all residents....", or something similar.

The current prohibition is in your CC&Rs, right?
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/15/2022 5:28 PM
I guess I am in the minority here, but if your governing documents say no yard sales, the HOA cannot sponsor a once per year annual yard sale. That is a violation of your governing documents.

You can, however, revise your documents.

Agree 100%.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
I prefer the black and white version. No yard sales means no yard sales. Having rocked the boat in my previous HOA, I am not one to push an issue. You open up the door for potential problems that can get ugly; even something as benign as yard sales. Human beings can get so petty. But if you have an ironclad method to change your CC&Rs, go for it.

Personally, I would choose something different if your goal is to promote neighborhood cohesiveness. If your neighborhood is stand alone homes, how much interaction would a yard sale generate? Presumably, the participants will hold their sale on their own properties and conduct their sale as an individual in their yard or garage. I suppose you would have some interaction by attending each others sales.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
"Yard Sale" prohibitions exist to prevent people from operating never-ending yard sales. There should be flexibility here and a community yard sale, held annually is a great idea as is modifying rules to allow regulated sales to ensure such sales open and close within a day.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/15/2022 5:28 PM
I guess I am in the minority here, but if your governing documents say no yard sales, the HOA cannot sponsor a once per year annual yard sale. That is a violation of your governing documents.

You can, however, revise your documents.

That was my assumption, and it's what we do in our community. The rules, by my reading, relate to homeowners. If the HOA chooses to have a social event that involves everyone putting their crap in the driveway one weekend and letter others buy it, I don't see how that is not legal. After all, our clubhouse has specific hours - but board members can enter 24 hours per day.

The purpose of the "no garage sales" is to prevent having a garage sale almost every weekend, especially if you have a family that goes around collecting cheap stuff then holding "garage sales" every week, which becomes basically a permanent flea market.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/28/2022 11:21 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/15/2022 5:28 PM
I guess I am in the minority here, but if your governing documents say no yard sales, the HOA cannot sponsor a once per year annual yard sale. That is a violation of your governing documents.

You can, however, revise your documents.


That was my assumption, and it's what we do in our community. The rules, by my reading, relate to homeowners. If the HOA chooses to have a social event that involves everyone putting their crap in the driveway one weekend and letter others buy it, I don't see how that is not legal. After all, our clubhouse has specific hours - but board members can enter 24 hours per day.

The purpose of the "no garage sales" is to prevent having a garage sale almost every weekend, especially if you have a family that goes around collecting cheap stuff then holding "garage sales" every week, which becomes basically a permanent flea market.


Oops - I misread your post. I guess I disagree, then.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Are you in a condo community, or would the yard sale be taking place on common area?

Our attorney is adamant about HOAs and especially condo communities not allowing yard sales because he's seen what can happen:

* Legally yard sales are no different from any other kind of sales or trade activity, and the declaration may prohibit this.

* Your insurance carrier may deny a claim if a person is injured while participating in the sale since that is commercial activity. (He's seen this happen, it isn't pretty.)

* COAs and HOAs often have limited parking for guests, leading visitors to park on lawns and other common areas. The association then has to pay for repairing the damage.

* He's seen a noticeable uptick in criminal activity in communities that have held yard sales. You're basically inviting strangers onto the property where they can case the joint.

Recommendation: talk to your insurance agent. Uninsured liability is a powerful argument for banning yard sales in the community.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
If the seasoned HOA leaders here can't even agree on this how do you think the homeowners will react? As a Board member one of my beliefs was to avoid controversy whenever possible. We already took enough crap and I would not be willing take on more over a yard sale. It just ain't worth it.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
Steve, I do not know how the Board, or the social committee can approve and hold a community wide garage sale when you have 6.42 in your declaration. Steve, that was put into the declaration for a reason and is part of the "governing documents" as to hwo the Association is to be governed.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
The rule state no garage sale or other "PRIVATE" sales of a similar nature - to me, that would prohibit random people from popping up and having a yard sale whenever. Ironically, one of our former presidents had a habit of doing this nearly every weekend for a while (I think she was decluttering), and had to be told to stop. This president also helped organize the community yard sale which we did have once a year, until she stepped down from the board. Today, you might see someone hold a yard sale every once in a while, but because we're a townhouse community, it's not really conducive to a sale due to limited parking.

I'd ask the association attorney about that part of the document - perhaps you can sponsor a community event, but make it clear this is the ONLY time of the year where such sales will be allowed, and owners must sign up in order to participate. You could also consider polling the community to see if that part of the document could be amended to allow them with certain rules such as requiring an owner to get permission from the board, indicating what times of day and/or days of the week the sale can be held, etc.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/28/2022 12:31 PM
Are you in a condo community, or would the yard sale be taking place on common area?

Our attorney is adamant about HOAs and especially condo communities not allowing yard sales because he's seen what can happen:

* Legally yard sales are no different from any other kind of sales or trade activity, and the declaration may prohibit this.

* Your insurance carrier may deny a claim if a person is injured while participating in the sale since that is commercial activity. (He's seen this happen, it isn't pretty.)

* COAs and HOAs often have limited parking for guests, leading visitors to park on lawns and other common areas. The association then has to pay for repairing the damage.

* He's seen a noticeable uptick in criminal activity in communities that have held yard sales. You're basically inviting strangers onto the property where they can case the joint.

Recommendation: talk to your insurance agent. Uninsured liability is a powerful argument for banning yard sales in the community.



Interesting. Has anyone spoken to the attorney about estate sales? There are some differences between them and your garden variety yard sale (such as being run by an estate sales company, for starters). I've noticed more and more of these are popping up as people get older and want to downsize as much as possible because they're moving to a senior or assisted living community, or have passed away. Another aspect of the increasing number of older folk in HOA communities that boards may have to address eventually.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 04/28/2022 12:34 PM
If the seasoned HOA leaders here can't even agree on this how do you think the homeowners will react?

It's one of the reasons I won't ever live in an HOA again.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/28/2022 12:31 PM
Are you in a condo community, or would the yard sale be taking place on common area?

Our attorney is adamant about HOAs and especially condo communities not allowing yard sales because he's seen what can happen:

* Legally yard sales are no different from any other kind of sales or trade activity, and the declaration may prohibit this.

* Your insurance carrier may deny a claim if a person is injured while participating in the sale since that is commercial activity. (He's seen this happen, it isn't pretty.)

* COAs and HOAs often have limited parking for guests, leading visitors to park on lawns and other common areas. The association then has to pay for repairing the damage.

* He's seen a noticeable uptick in criminal activity in communities that have held yard sales. You're basically inviting strangers onto the property where they can case the joint.

Recommendation: talk to your insurance agent. Uninsured liability is a powerful argument for banning yard sales in the community.
Oy. I think this is powerful stuff arguing against a sale. Especially the last one: If the board violates the covenants and agrees to a sale, why should an insurer pay any claims that may arise subsequently?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
The only estate sales in my community were apparently held online/off-premises and people just came to pick up their items. Still an uptick in traffic but nothing unmanageable.

The insurance bit is scary, since there are people out there who will stage slip-and-fall accidents, and a yard sale in an HOA/COA is a perfect target.

I never asked what would happen if a homeowner held a sale after being told no, and someone got hurt. Would that be enough to shift liability onto the homeowner? Maybe, maybe not. Fortunately yard sales don't seem to be much of a thing around here.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/28/2022 1:56 PM

I never asked what would happen if a homeowner held a sale after being told no, and someone got hurt. Would that be enough to shift liability onto the homeowner? Maybe, maybe not.
I have every confidence the slip-and-fall victim's attorney will go after each and every party that has insurance.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
I wouldn’t vote for it. Next month you will have some idiot holding a garage sale every weekend and claiming discrimination if you attempt to enforce.

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