Any suggested how to find a person of these qualifications to perform a recount

RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550

Posted:

A board appears to be dragging its feet on finding some to do a recount. It is suggesting the management company, which was part of the vote, do the recount. It will not answer whether it made any attempt to find a qualified person.

Per Texas law, while both sides could agree to someone outside these qualification, the person qualified to do the recount is

(A) a current or former:

(i) county judge;

(ii) county elections administrator;

(iii) justice of the peace; or

(iv) county voter registrar; or

(B) a person agreed on by the association and each person requesting the recount.

Our Association is in one of the largest counties in Texas, with 800K population and is part of a major metropolitan area of over 6 million people, so it seems reasonable to demand that criteria (A) be met - I assume criteria (B) is for less dense areas where people with that criteria would be few.

Anyone have suggestions on how to find such a person?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Usually use the MC as they are not a HOA member. Should not have a dog in this hunt

May I ask what the recount would accomplish? I forced my HOA into doing this once and I still lost. Although found out later it was do to undo influence and lies told. All water off a ducks back. It is what it is. The lesson was learned eventually and could not force it.

It costs money and time for a recount. Is your HOA prepared for this? What qualifications are you referring to? Most HOA'S just have to be an owner or an owner in good standing. Yet that is questionable as people may vote that person in anyway.

Former HOA President

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RogerJ1 on 04/15/2022 6:15 AM
A board appears to be dragging its feet on finding some to do a recount. It is suggesting the management company, which was part of the vote, do the recount. It will not answer whether it made any attempt to find a qualified person.

I see the section of TPC 209 about which you are posting. To review a bit: Per the statute section, if you do not agree with the management company doing the recount, and you have money to spare, then the HOA/COA has to either find someone who is qualified as you described in your first post here, or find someone else on whom the HOA and you agree.

I wonder if it is quite a chore hiring a county judge, county elections administrator, a JP, a county voter registrar. I presume these officials would be off-duty and hired under a brief contract.

I recommend a CPA on which you and the HOA both can agree. Many CPAs referee elections.

RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/15/2022 7:35 AM

I wonder if it is quite a chore hiring a county judge, county elections administrator, a JP, a county voter registrar. I presume these officials would be off-duty and hired under a brief contract.

I talked to someone in a county political position. She thinks she will be able to find someone meeting that criteria. The Board likely put not effort into it. You know the background on this situation from my other posts. The Board likely would not want someone of that criteria involved.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

RogerJ1, respectfully, I get that you think the directors are losers. But I think speculating on, say, board motivations is not helpful. To be as effective as possible, I recommend that you stick with the actual actions of the Board and the law.

Also I would keep in mind that the clock is on hold to the extent that the board is trying to work with you to find someone on whom you can both agree.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

In California, anyone under contract to the HOA would not be allowed to be an Inspector of Elections, or in the OP's case handle a recount, because, it has been argued they DO have a dog in the hunt.

Have to assume you are footing the bill for the recount.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, Roger, help me remember. The HOA in question is not one that you own in. Is that right? You're helping a friend with their issues with their HOA board?

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RogerJ1 on 04/15/2022 6:15 AM
A board appears to be dragging its feet on finding some to do a recount. It is suggesting the management company, which was part of the vote, do the recount. It will not answer whether it made any attempt to find a qualified person.

Per Texas law, while both sides could agree to someone outside these qualification, the person qualified to do the recount is

(A) a current or former:

(i) county judge;

(ii) county elections administrator;

(iii) justice of the peace; or

(iv) county voter registrar; or

(B) a person agreed on by the association and each person requesting the recount.

Our Association is in one of the largest counties in Texas, with 800K population and is part of a major metropolitan area of over 6 million people, so it seems reasonable to demand that criteria (A) be met - I assume criteria (B) is for less dense areas where people with that criteria would be few.

Anyone have suggestions on how to find such a person?

It's super easy to be a county voter registrar - I know because I am one. No special skills required. And honestly, in Texas I wouldn't be too impressed with an elections administrator, judge, or JP either.

I'd suggest having a CPA do your recount if the management company will agree to it. Easy to find those.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

I'm really confused.

I'm an engineer by trade and don't offhand see how it matters who does a recount. 2 + 2 = 4 regardless of whether the person is a board member, property management company, judge, or peace officer. Even in a hotly contested race (which is rare in the context of HOA board elections), I still don't see why someone would fib the number of votes when counting ballots. We are all adults after all.

I mean - it's a volunteer organization. Are people really fibbing vote counts to stay on as a volunteer Board member? I know there are plenty of things that I have going on in my life. If homeowners choose to vote for another person over me to serve as a volunteer in our community, more power to them. I may be disappointed, but I would not lie on the tally results in a vote just so I could stay on the Board.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

At the moment, I am wondering if I can legally fib the vote count at my next annual meeting so the other candidate wins and I can gracefully exit the Board?

MiaR1 (Illinois)
Posts: 46

Posted:

yes people do fib votes tally to stay on the Board as “volunteers.” My own Association is guilty of it.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

LOL! MichaelT!!! Too funny! My theory has always been to create a "bigger fish". Do the job so well that the "Bigger Fish" want to eat you!

In my case, I had already bought a house in another neighborhood. My HOA house was a rental. Had announced had quit but would stay as a board member if wanted during the transition to new board Yet, that scumsucking con-man ex-president still organized a "coup" to get me out of office!

Former HOA President

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 04/15/2022 9:23 AM
In California, anyone under contract to the HOA would not be allowed to be an Inspector of Elections, or in the OP's case handle a recount, because, it has been argued they DO have a dog in the hunt.

Have to assume you are footing the bill for the recount.

Interestingly, we are having our first full board election right now, and our Property Manager is conducting the election against my protestations to the Board President. My reasoning is exactly the same as the one you gave - they do have a financial stake in the outcome, because if the "right" candidates are elected they will keep their contract, but if the "wrong" candidates are elected they will lose their contract.

Unfortunately, they are running it and, with zero rules in our bylaws outlining the execution of an election they are doing it by the seat-of-their pants, without safeguards to ensure the election is run cleanly and no allowance for oversight by the candidates. They even sent a communication out telling a number of residents that I was not allowed to campaign (because I am an incumbent), and that my hand distribution of a few flyers (with NOTHING implying the flyer came from the Board) to neighbors represented a serious ethical transgression. I am now being trashed and slandered on the community FaceBook page, which is run by an opposing candidate, by that candidate and her friends, with no criticism from the PM whatsoever.

At this point I have come to accept that I have lost, and I don't really have any recourse. All because the PM was allowed to fill the role of the Election Inspector. It's frustrating.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/15/2022 8:11 PM
At the moment, I am wondering if I can legally fib the vote count at my next annual meeting so the other candidate wins and I can gracefully exit the Board?

That needs to be an episode in our HOA reality TV series!

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Roger

Are you saying you will lose because the PM will cheat on the count and/or the Facebook site did such a good job of trashing you that few want you on the BOD?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/27/2022 1:39 PM

Interestingly, we are having our first full board election right now, and our Property Manager is conducting the election against my protestations to the Board President. My reasoning is exactly the same as the one you gave - they do have a financial stake in the outcome, because if the "right" candidates are elected they will keep their contract, but if the "wrong" candidates are elected they will lose their contract.

Unfortunately, they are running it and, with zero rules in our bylaws outlining the execution of an election they are doing it by the seat-of-their pants, without safeguards to ensure the election is run cleanly and no allowance for oversight by the candidates. They even sent a communication out telling a number of residents that I was not allowed to campaign (because I am an incumbent), and that my hand distribution of a few flyers (with NOTHING implying the flyer came from the Board) to neighbors represented a serious ethical transgression. I am now being trashed and slandered on the community FaceBook page, which is run by an opposing candidate, by that candidate and her friends, with no criticism from the PM whatsoever.

DavidG45, I am sorry for the abuse you have faced. You so did not deserve such an incompetent manager and such a destructively run election.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/27/2022 1:56 PM
Roger

Are you saying you will lose because the PM will cheat on the count and/or the Facebook site did such a good job of trashing you that few want you on the BOD?

ADD ON

Sorry, meant for David.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/27/2022 1:56 PM
Roger

Are you saying you will lose because the PM will cheat on the count and/or the Facebook site did such a good job of trashing you that few want you on the BOD?

I would say there is a non-zero chance the PM would cheat. They do not have secret ballots, candidates are not allowed to observe the counting, etc so they have certainly positioned themselves to get away with it if they wants to cheat. The FB garbage will hurt, though it’s hard to guess how many people are actually swayed by that stuff. But given that the PM already trashed me in front of all thirteen candidates, and has warned that I cannot campaign while others can trash me relentlessly on social media puts me in a very difficult position.

I am also in a section of the community reserved for 55+ residents, with an unfortunate amount of animosity between us and many of the folks in the rest of the community. With only 150 of “us” and 350 of “them” it doesn’t take much to sway things away from me.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/27/2022 5:35 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/27/2022 1:56 PM
Roger

Are you saying you will lose because the PM will cheat on the count and/or the Facebook site did such a good job of trashing you that few want you on the BOD?

I would say there is a non-zero chance the PM would cheat. They do not have secret ballots, candidates are not allowed to observe the counting, etc so they have certainly positioned themselves to get away with it if they wants to cheat. The FB garbage will hurt, though it’s hard to guess how many people are actually swayed by that stuff. But given that the PM already trashed me in front of all thirteen candidates, and has warned that I cannot campaign while others can trash me relentlessly on social media puts me in a very difficult position.

I am also in a section of the community reserved for 55+ residents, with an unfortunate amount of animosity between us and many of the folks in the rest of the community. With only 150 of “us” and 350 of “them” it doesn’t take much to sway things away from me.

All is fair in love, war, and politics.........LOL

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/27/2022 5:35 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 04/27/2022 1:56 PM
Roger

Are you saying you will lose because the PM will cheat on the count and/or the Facebook site did such a good job of trashing you that few want you on the BOD?

I would say there is a non-zero chance the PM would cheat. They do not have secret ballots, candidates are not allowed to observe the counting, etc so they have certainly positioned themselves to get away with it if they wants to cheat. The FB garbage will hurt, though it’s hard to guess how many people are actually swayed by that stuff. But given that the PM already trashed me in front of all thirteen candidates, and has warned that I cannot campaign while others can trash me relentlessly on social media puts me in a very difficult position.

I am also in a section of the community reserved for 55+ residents, with an unfortunate amount of animosity between us and many of the folks in the rest of the community. With only 150 of “us” and 350 of “them” it doesn’t take much to sway things away from me.

I'm a pretty staunch defender of managers and management companies but there are problems in the industry. In my first election as a manager, the board secretary showed me an amendment lowering quorum that I knew was not valid. My boss told me not to ruffle feathers and let it go. At the (invalid because the real quorum wasn't achieved) meeting the board president produced a bunch of proxies that allowed her to win re-election despite a decent number of owners present who had voted against her. I was highly suspect of these proxies but again told to keep quiet.

I didn't. But it took a LOT of pushing and hinting and nudging and steering the uninvolved board members into asking me the right questions and thank god the association attorney said what my director and VP would not - that the election absolutely had to be nullified and held again, with proper quorum and verified proxies. It took a month of not just me but the losing candidates and homeowners who had voted for them consistently putting pressure on all the players. And while I don't regret my actions, I paid a price for them. My career was derailed for a long time because I wasn't a team player. Not everyone is as stupidly determined to make their mother proud, against their own best interests, as I am!

I don't always agree with your POV but you are clearly and sincerely interested in improving your association and acting in its best interests. Your best bet might be to align with the other candidates so that even if your election is thwarted, whoever is elected ultimately does the right thing for the community.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/28/2022 10:02 AM
My career was derailed for a long time because I wasn't a team player. Not everyone is as stupidly determined to make their mother proud, against their own best interests, as I am!

I think "team player" too often is a euphemism for Gordon Gekko's, "Greed is good" and "Eff the other guy. I am getting mine." A certain moral flexibility seems to be essential to make a good living these days.

This is why this forum seems to be special: It overwhelmingly consists of a bunch of hard working volunteers not interested in benefitting themselves but working for a greater good. Or they just like to call the shots, and doing so is its own reward.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/28/2022 10:13 AM

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/28/2022 10:02 AM
My career was derailed for a long time because I wasn't a team player. Not everyone is as stupidly determined to make their mother proud, against their own best interests, as I am!

I think "team player" too often is a euphemism for Gordon Gekko's, "Greed is good" and "Eff the other guy. I am getting mine." A certain moral flexibility seems to be essential to make a good living these days.

This is why this forum seems to be special: It overwhelmingly consists of a bunch of hard working volunteers not interested in benefitting themselves but working for a greater good. Or they just like to call the shots, and doing so is its own reward.

With these big companies, there is a lot of pressure not to lose accounts. Please the board at any cost so you don't lose the account. Naively, I thought "but the board changes so be nice and fair to everyone!" Then I found out that the corollary to "please the board" is "keep the board that will keep you."

This incident was years ago and everyone involved is no longer working for that company (some of the aren't even in the industry anymore). But I'm wary of working for the big companies any more. Independently owned companies, where the owner is still managing a property or two, aren't afraid to fire a client who wants something shady.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/28/2022 10:39 AM

Posted By AugustinD on 04/28/2022 10:13 AM

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/28/2022 10:02 AM
My career was derailed for a long time because I wasn't a team player. Not everyone is as stupidly determined to make their mother proud, against their own best interests, as I am!

I think "team player" too often is a euphemism for Gordon Gekko's, "Greed is good" and "Eff the other guy. I am getting mine." A certain moral flexibility seems to be essential to make a good living these days.

This is why this forum seems to be special: It overwhelmingly consists of a bunch of hard working volunteers not interested in benefitting themselves but working for a greater good. Or they just like to call the shots, and doing so is its own reward.

With these big companies, there is a lot of pressure not to lose accounts. Please the board at any cost so you don't lose the account. Naively, I thought "but the board changes so be nice and fair to everyone!" Then I found out that the corollary to "please the board" is "keep the board that will keep you."

This incident was years ago and everyone involved is no longer working for that company (some of the aren't even in the industry anymore). But I'm wary of working for the big companies any more. Independently owned companies, where the owner is still managing a property or two, aren't afraid to fire a client who wants something shady.

It's interesting and heartening to hear this. It means my perception is not crazy! Indeed, our current PM is a large corporation and the supervisor is clearly working to keep me off the board in order to keep the contract. And after having discussions with several other communities in our area over the last year, there is one firm that seemed to stand above all the rest - and it is a small family business with about 40 communities, all in the state of Delaware.

There has been a great deal of ugliness this past week, so I believe my chances of being on the board are getting pretty slim. Hopefully some of the good candidates prevail so that we still have a strong board. In some ways it is a relief. I can go back to just enjoying our 55+ events and stop worrying about the rest of the community.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Jeez, David, I feel really badly for you. Anyone who's been following your efforts as the lone board member of the developer's board realizes and appreciates how hard you'v been working on behalf of your association.

Don't your docs, probably your Bylaws, make sure that the legacy units have at least one director???

Are there no election guidelines for nonprofits in DE?

Is counting ballots part of your contract with the MC? By "conducting the election," you do mean tabulation the ballots, yes?

When is your election, David?

(I try to stay with the subject line, but Roger has disappeared.)

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I am a big fan of "Gordon Gecko", and as I am not a volunteer, "greed is good", I get mind!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Typos-davis is the lone residential director as I understand it.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/28/2022 11:07 AM
Jeez, David, I feel really badly for you. Anyone who's been following your efforts as the lone board member of the developer's board realizes and appreciates how hard you'v been working on behalf of your association.

Don't your docs, probably your Bylaws, make sure that the legacy units have at least one director???

Are there no election guidelines for nonprofits in DE?

Is counting ballots part of your contract with the MC? By "conducting the election," you do mean tabulation the ballots, yes?

When is your election, David?

(I try to stay with the subject line, but Roger has disappeared.)

Kerry - yes, our Decs do require at least one Legacy resident on the board. Two weeks ago I would have said I will clearly be the highest Legacy vote getter from name recognition alone. Now, however, I would guess it is likely it won't be me. Hopefully it will be one of our strong candidates who will make sure our rights are protected.

From what I know - based on a link someone here provided me - Delaware has a set of guidelines from the Attorney General's office that do set forth a very comprehensive set of procedures for conducting an election. It apparently is based on California's guidelines. However, they are not mandatory and although before this all started I asked the Declarant and the PM to follow them, the Declarant just doesn't care and the PM decided he would rather ignore them and make up rules as he goes.

Our contract says they will "assist" the association in elections; which basically seems to mean they will make copies of the ballots and other materials and handle mailing them. They have, in this case, declared that they are "administering" the election, meaning they are doing everything, up to and including counting of the ballots. They dictated what candidates were allowed to include in the ballot packet, they dictated that we would have exactly one "meet the candidate" meeting, via zoom, with each candidate granted three minutes to state their case, and they have dictated that as the lone incumbent any electioneering that I do is considered unethical.

Our election is May 16. My wife and friends are driving me crazy now telling me to defend myself on social media, but I've explained it does not change anyone's minds, it only keeps the fire going, and honestly I find it empowering to just let them throw crap around while I am silent, staying above the fray.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

David,

While under Delacant control, the PM works for the Declarant and not the association, and will do things the Declarant wants. If the Declarant feels you can be of the slightest threat, you WILL NOT get on the board. That is politics and it's been the way of the world since the beginning of time.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I agree with Max. This result was totally predictable.

I think David got annoyed with me when I'd suggested in a different thread that he consider how the developer was likely to view his behavior. The developer is a professional, he works with a particular management company, and here comes this wet-behind-the-ears homeowner who says "no sir, that's not good enough for me" and proceeds to organize homeowners to find a new PM.

I'm certain that the board (ie, the developer) did not vote to authorize such a thing, which is a perfect example of a board member going rogue.

I have no opinion on who's right and who's justified for doing what in that situation. But creating an adversarial relationship when you don't have the wherewithal to make things go your way is a boneheaded move. It's no different from any situation where a board member is the odd man out. That board member could be 100% right and the rest of 'em a bunch of dunderheads, but that single board is not going to have things his way.

Wars are lost before the first shot is fired.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 04/29/2022 6:24 AM
I agree with Max. This result was totally predictable.

I think David got annoyed with me when I'd suggested in a different thread that he consider how the developer was likely to view his behavior. The developer is a professional, he works with a particular management company, and here comes this wet-behind-the-ears homeowner who says "no sir, that's not good enough for me" and proceeds to organize homeowners to find a new PM.

I'm certain that the board (ie, the developer) did not vote to authorize such a thing, which is a perfect example of a board member going rogue.

I have no opinion on who's right and who's justified for doing what in that situation. But creating an adversarial relationship when you don't have the wherewithal to make things go your way is a boneheaded move. It's no different from any situation where a board member is the odd man out. That board member could be 100% right and the rest of 'em a bunch of dunderheads, but that single board is not going to have things his way.

Wars are lost before the first shot is fired.

Well said. There are many people that do not understand how they won every battle but still lost the war.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 04/28/2022 12:34 PM
David,

While under Delacant control, the PM works for the Declarant and not the association, and will do things the Declarant wants. If the Declarant feels you can be of the slightest threat, you WILL NOT get on the board. That is politics and it's been the way of the world since the beginning of time.

It has certainly been an eye-opening experience. Honestly, for two years everything has been fine, as I have been aggressively representing the wants and needs of the homeowners. As I always explained to the PM and the Developer - I am the only person here accountable to them. It was all fine until the election for a new board was announced. Now I discover that when thirteen candidates are vying for five positions, things can get ugly; and for some I am no longer the positive-energy-cheerleader-for-the-community, but rather an opposing candidate to be destroyed. And the advantage held by the PM in influencing the election is way above what I could have imagined.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

While probably not in your contract with the MC, I do think there's a code of ethics for certified community managers. And I think it discourages PMs campaigning for or against any candidate.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

In a normal world where the HOA has been turned over and run by its homeowners, a management company and its PM work for and represent the Association. Under declarant control, a PM or a management company work for the declarant and not the association. They are there to help the developer get all the homes sold so they can get out of Dodge and on to the next project.

Most people will have such disdain for this type of relationship, yet we hold these same declarants on such high moral ground with the CCRs they slapped on their properties.