How would you define "planter bed"?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Curious how you would interpret this. Our ACC guidelines have not been updated since the 90's when the neighborhood was being developed and constructed. The only mention of "planter" is here.

Note, it doesn't say raised bed or elevated or walled planter. just "planter beds".

To me, this means that a homeowner cannot have any planter bed of just flowers/bulbs/stuff w/in 6ft of the sidewalk, even if its directly in the ground. You can have it landscaped, grass, mulched, whatever, but you can't have a flower bed there within 6ft of the sidewalk.

What's your reading of this?

The reason I ask is because I'm looking to do some raised beds in the front area and notice that many many many homes have traditional planter beds right there in front.....seems to be an abandoned or unenforceable ACC guideline now, just like basketball hoops. Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

=============
Ground Plan: All landscape areas shall be
irrigated by an underground sprinkler system.
Sixty percent of the ground area shall be planted
in grass. The grass area shall be designed so as
to accomplish a continuous grass appearance along
the property frontage from the back of the curb and
from and to adjacent properties. All planter beds
must be held back 6 feet from curbs or sidewalks
where present. Forty percent of the ground area
may be planted with shrubs, groundcover, or
utilized as an entry patio. Natural, native bark
product groundcover mulches are recommended to hold
moisture and add organic matter to the soil.
Cinders, gravel or rock do not break down and are,
therefore, not allowed. All landscape boulders
used to accent shall be of sufficient and
appropriate size to properly compliment the
landscaping plan.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I interpret it as a landscaped area without grass on which planters, flower pots or permanent plantings can sit. I also assume that the CC&Rs are trying to have a somewhat uniform look while still giving homeowners some ability to do their own thing.

Is the HOA responsible for maintaining sidewalks and streets? That may also give you some more hints about the reasoning behind this.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 04/14/2022 11:38 AM
I interpret it as a landscaped area without grass on which planters, flower pots or permanent plantings can sit. I also assume that the CC&Rs are trying to have a somewhat uniform look while still giving homeowners some ability to do their own thing.

Is the HOA responsible for maintaining sidewalks and streets? That may also give you some more hints about the reasoning behind this.

public streets. I assume the HOA has easement to manage and maintain sidewalks.

OK, so are you advocating that planter bed means anything placed on top of the soil?

Webster defines planter bed as:
Definition of flower bed: an area where flowers are planted

legal definition from lawinsider.com:
Landscape planter beds means non-turf, improved areas that include woody plant material such as bark, mulch, shrubs, trees, and ground cover plantings.

It seems that in general, planter bed means the actual area....not restricted to only elevated/contained planters

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

-- The OP appears to have quoted what he calls an "ACC guideline." What does the covenant, on which this guideline is based, say?

-- All the images I see of "planter beds" show a region of earth/dirt bounded by a wood, metal or plastic barrier. Some have bottoms. Some do not.

-- I found exactly one recent (2019) Idaho Supreme Court decision a HOA's alleged waiver of restrictions (a.k.a. abandonment of covenants and also "acquiescence"). See:

https://cases.justia.com/idaho/supreme-court-civil/2019-46323.pdf , especially pages 11-14.
(The HOA's Declaration has multiple non-waiver-ability clauses for its ACC covenants. An owner got nowhere with his assertions that the HOA had waived its right to enforce certain ACC restrictions.)

The 2019 Idaho decision references the 1960 Idaho decision, Smith v. Shinn, https://casetext.com/case/smith-v-shinn. From the 1960 decision:

Where a court of equity is asked to enforce a covenant by ordering specific performance and granting an injunction to prevent a breach of it, equitable principles will prevail and the rules of fair dealing and good conscience must be applied. So in this case if such proffered evidence discloses that a substantial number of homes within the subdivision are in fact located less than 25 feet from the front property line it would be inequitable to require appellants to comply with the restrictions under an interpretation or construction different from that applied to other property owners.

One of the material reasons why the court should have permitted evidence tending to disclose what construction had been placed on such restrictions by other interested parties is that it would enable the court to determine if there had been such acquiescence in a particular interpretation by the parties interested as to in effect constitute an abandonment of the construction and interpretation contended for by respondents. Whether there has been such acquiescence depends upon the circumstances of each case. (14 Am.Jur. 644, § 295.)

Another material reason is that if such proffered evidence discloses that respondents have knowingly and without objection permitted several other grantees within the subdivision to violate the restrictions which they here seek to enforce against appellants equity will not assist them in such enforcement. Such rule rests upon the equitable ground that, if any one who has a right to enforce the covenant and so preserve the conditions which said covenant was designed to keep unaltered shall acquiesce in material alterations of those conditions, he cannot thereafter ask a court of equity to assist him in preserving them. Ronberg v. Smith, 132 Wn. 345, 232 P. 283; Tindolph v. Schoenfeld Bros., 157 Wn. 605, 289 P. 530.

(Above, the bolded and underlined emphasis is Aug's.)

Check other Idaho decisions that cite the Smith v. Shinn decision.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I think it means the area (ground, soil, etc.) along with whatever is planted either in the soil or in decorative containers if you want to allow those. They're small, landscaped areas (ie. not the normal grass used in yards but ornamental grasses OK).

Is there a reason this has come up as a question (eg. a homeowner or the board is fussing about it) or is it theoretical (eg. what on earth does this mean?).

FWIW, I looked at a bunch of Google images, and they all were raised and/or were framed:

https://www.google.com/search?q=planter+bed&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5h8Wyo5T3AhVUZ80KHaOOARsQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1787&bih=865&dpr=0.9

If these things are adjacent to the street and sidewalk, I don't know that you'd want them raised or framed - if you live in an area that gets snow, they may get damaged when the streets are plowed. What I've seen around my area are small landscaped areas around free-standing, individual mailboxes.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/14/2022 12:24 PM
-- The OP appears to have quoted what he calls an "ACC guideline." What does the covenant, on which this guideline is based, say?

Nothing. Nothing about CCR's create the ACC and the ACC creates 'the rules' or 'guidelines.' Our HOA has no 'modern' or 'refreshed' ACC rules/guidelines except what was published in 90's when neighborhood was being constructed. Most of it deals with construction ACC rules, then a few sections about landscaping, paint colors, fences, trees, etc.

Architectural Committee Rules and Fees. The Architectural
Committee also may establish rules and/or guidelines setting forth procedures
for and the required content of the applications and plans submitted for
approval.

Such rules and guidelines may establish, without limitation, specific
rules and regulations regarding design and style elements, landscaping and
fences and other structures such as animal enclosures as well as special
architectural guidelines applicable to Building Lots located adjacent to public
and/or private open space.

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/14/2022 12:24 PM

-- All the images I see of "planter beds" show a region of earth/dirt bounded by a wood, metal or plastic barrier. Some have bottoms. Some do not.

Agreed, many types of planter beds, but it seems that a flower bed planted directly in the soil is just as much a planter bed as a raised bed planter.
See image here as an example: https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/eec48e7d6d005eb397c5e1d98bd6afc2365ccfbd/c=0-71-1429-878/local/-/media/2017/02/15/LAGroup/Monroe/636227787768480320-springbed3.jpg

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/14/2022 12:24 PM

-- I found exactly one recent (2019) Idaho Supreme Court decision a HOA's alleged waiver of restrictions (a.k.a. abandonment of covenants and also "acquiescence"). See:

https://cases.justia.com/idaho/supreme-court-civil/2019-46323.pdf

ahh, the Rodina case. As I read it, one of his issues is that he submitted an ACC for his fence, and then constructed something that exceeded his initial application, and then did a horrible job defending, presenting evidence, preserving topics for appeal. The topic of non-waiver is a long and complicated and needs much more inspection.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 04/14/2022 12:29 PM
I think it means the area (ground, soil, etc.) along with whatever is planted either in the soil or in decorative containers if you want to allow those. They're small, landscaped areas (ie. not the normal grass used in yards but ornamental grasses OK).

Is there a reason this has come up as a question (eg. a homeowner or the board is fussing about it) or is it theoretical (eg. what on earth does this mean?).

FWIW, I looked at a bunch of Google images, and they all were raised and/or were framed:

https://www.google.com/search?q=planter+bed&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5h8Wyo5T3AhVUZ80KHaOOARsQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1787&bih=865&dpr=0.9

If these things are adjacent to the street and sidewalk, I don't know that you'd want them raised or framed - if you live in an area that gets snow, they may get damaged when the streets are plowed. What I've seen around my area are small landscaped areas around free-standing, individual mailboxes.

Agreed, small landscaped areas, sometimes at the corners of front yards, between the grass and the driveway/mailbox area.

question has come up because myself and others are starting their spring planting and landscaping plans, and we read the ACC's saying no planter beds, then look around at most homes that have planter beds right there at the front of their yard. seems like something that has been abandonded/unenforced forever.

no concern about snow and plow damage.

something nicely made like this would be perfect at the corner of a driveway, where there already is a mulched 'planter bed' with no grass.
https://vegogarden.com/products/17-tall-l-shaped-raised-garden-bed-kit-large-size

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

AdamL1, what sort of non-waiver clauses are there in the covenants? Meaning do the covenants have language saying that the HOA/ACC's failure to enforce xyz in one case does not mean it cannot enforce xyz in another case? This was an issue in the Rodina case.

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/14/2022 12:41 PM

[Aug edit: The covenant giving the ACC authority yada]
Architectural Committee Rules and Fees. The Architectural
Committee also may establish rules and/or guidelines setting forth procedures
for and the required content of the applications and plans submitted for
approval.

Such rules and guidelines may establish, without limitation, specific
rules and regulations regarding design and style elements, landscaping and
fences and other structures such as animal enclosures as well as special
architectural guidelines applicable to Building Lots located adjacent to public
and/or private open space.

I was afraid your covenants might say something like this. I think it reads a lot like the 2019 Idaho Rodina decision's covenants. To me, Rodina was not just about an owner's sloppiness in applying (or not applying) to the ACC. I think the Rodina decision decreed that the ACC has a lot of discretion, because the covenant gives the ACC a lot of discretion. To me, the decision just about said the ACC could be as arbitrary as it wanted, all because the covenants say as much.

On the other hand, the court attacked Rodina for failing to provide evidence that the HOA/ACC had approved projects of other owners that were substantially similar to his. See the bottom of pdf page 13 et seq.

In other words and for your proposed design, if you have such proof, you might get somewhere in court that Rodina did not. Food for thought, along with what I cited from the 1960 decision (which the Rodina court references for the subjects of abandonment/waiver/acquiescence.

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/14/2022 12:41 PM

it seems that a flower bed planted directly in the soil is just as much a planter bed as a raised bed planter.
See image here as an example: https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/eec48e7d6d005eb397c5e1d98bd6afc2365ccfbd/c=0-71-1429-878/local/-/media/2017/02/15/LAGroup/Monroe/636227787768480320-springbed3.jpg

I would point out that the image AdamL1 links above shows flowers within a brick border.

Just because Rodina lost does not mean the 2019 decision has no value to your situation. I believe the Rodina decision, pages 11-14, is an excellent start to identifying when a court will say a covenant has been abandoned (waived, or waived by acquiescence) in Iowa. The 1960 Smith v. Shinn case is also invaluable on this count.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

AdamL1, do you intend to apply to the ACC for your flower bed (planter bed?). Or are you going to go for it and see if the ACC issues you a violation? Or are you weighing the path to take, based on how much legal ammo (so to speak) you can get together?

The HOA Wars.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/14/2022 1:05 PM

I was afraid your covenants might say something like this. I think it reads a lot like the 2019 Idaho Rodina decision's covenants. To me, Rodina was not just about an owner's sloppiness in applying (or not applying) to the ACC. I think the Rodina decision decreed that the ACC has a lot of discretion, because the covenant gives the ACC a lot of discretion. To me, the decision just about said the ACC could be as arbitrary as it wanted, all because the covenants say as much.

On the other hand, the court attacked Rodina for failing to provide evidence that the HOA/ACC had approved projects of other owners that were substantially similar to his. See the bottom of pdf page 13 et seq.

In other words and for your proposed design, if you have such proof, you might get somewhere in court that Rodina did not. Food for thought, along with what I cited from the 1960 decision (which the Rodina court references for the subjects of abandonment/waiver/acquiescence.

Agreed......but a lot of the Rodina case involved that he submitted a proposal to the ACC and then deviated from that plan. If you submit to the jurisdiction, then you are playing by their rules. From doing a straw poll of the neighborhood, and even getting in writing from former HOA leadership.....small things like basic landscaping, mulching, plantings, add/remove, etc do not need ACC submissions....up to the point of adding/removing trees and doing large changes to the current landscape/groundplan. i.e.....taking out that bush and planting dafodils does not require an ACC submission. Not a single person with raised beds or tomato planters submitted an ACC request. They just did it and have had no issue from the HOA.
=========================

yes, we have the standard non-waiver stuff.

No Waiver of Future Approvals. The approval of the Architectural
Committee of any proposals or plans and specifications or drawings for any work
done or proposed, or in connection with any other matter requiring the approval and
consent of the Architectural Committee, shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver
of any right to withhold approval or consent as to any similar proposals, plans and
specifications, drawings or matter whatever subsequently or additionally submitted
for approval or consent.

Non-Waiver. The failure to enforce any of the provisions
herein at any time shall not constitute a waiver of the right to enforce any
such provision.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/14/2022 1:12 PM
small things like basic landscaping, mulching, plantings, add/remove, etc do not need ACC submissions....up to the point of adding/removing trees and doing large changes to the current landscape/groundplan. i.e.....taking out that bush and planting dafodils does not require an ACC submission. Not a single person with raised beds or tomato planters submitted an ACC request. They just did it and have had no issue from the HOA.

As far as putting in a planter bed, I would go for it. If you get a violation notice, then using the language of Idaho case law on this topic, I would be arguing that the acquiescence of the HOA to many such planter beds (and similar stuff arguably under ACC purview?) means the HOA waived the right to enforce.

I am wondering if what you are up to is something much bigger than planter beds. For example, massive acquiescence means _____, and the covenants should all be deemed abandoned? Regardless, this is for another thread.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/14/2022 1:37 PM

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/14/2022 1:12 PM
small things like basic landscaping, mulching, plantings, add/remove, etc do not need ACC submissions....up to the point of adding/removing trees and doing large changes to the current landscape/groundplan. i.e.....taking out that bush and planting dafodils does not require an ACC submission. Not a single person with raised beds or tomato planters submitted an ACC request. They just did it and have had no issue from the HOA.

As far as putting in a planter bed, I would go for it. If you get a violation notice, then using the language of Idaho case law on this topic, I would be arguing that the acquiescence of the HOA to many such planter beds (and similar stuff arguably under ACC purview?) means the HOA waived the right to enforce.

I am wondering if what you are up to is something much bigger than planter beds. For example, massive acquiescence means _____, and the covenants should all be deemed abandoned? Regardless, this is for another thread.

interesting theory. I've certainly collected a lot of evidence to support most aspects of the CCR's be thrown out....but haven't really found any good case law showing how to start the revolution.

Specifically I'm just looking at landscaping activity.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/14/2022 2:05 PM
interesting theory.

For the archives:

It is not a theory. It is Idaho courts speaking. Where:

-- acquiescence by a HOA

-- to a "substantial number of homes"

-- being in violation of a particular covenant

-- while the HOA demands

-- that one particular home comply with the covenant

-- is inequitable

-- and so Idaho courts will not allow such a practice.

See the excerpt from the 1960 Idaho Smith v. Shinn I quoted above, and which the 2019 Idaho Rodina decision references at length, in particular indicating the Smith v. Shinn rule remains valid. (Rodina simply did not present evidence of this acquiescence and so blundered.)

State supreme court decisions establish "common law rules." Common law rules are as binding as any statute.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

It says the beds have to be 6 feet from the curb or sidewalk, if present, so my first question would be where do you want to place the planter. If it's the front yard have you measured where you want to place it so it doesn't run into the curb and/or sidewalk? How hard could that be?

I'm told when our community was built, the documents banned flower beds (the ones you dig in the ground and set borders around it) because the lawns went up to the window and those ARE part of the common area, our utility lines also run underground into the house from thecfront, all underground, so I'm sure there was a concern someone would fit too relevant or plant a shrub and it's roots would interfere with the sewer line (and years later, we did have issues with the now adult trees for the same reason).

Of course, people being people and wanting to decorate, the flower beds began popping up everywhere, and so the board said ok, you can have them, but you have to submit an exterior change request showing where it'll be placed and keep it free of weeds year round. I think there was also a requirement to remove the bed if you sold the house, but I something that was enforced very much because the next homeowner would plant whatever he/she wanted. Others received a notice about the weeds and decide to take it out and plant grass.

My home also has two flower beds underneath the front windows and the former owner had some wildflowers or something growing there. No pulled them up and now have chillies that look pretty (although I wish I could find the ones with different colors besides yellow). I change our the mulch every two years or so and haven't had any complaints.

You said you assumed a few things about what this CCR means, but unless you to start another fight with the board, Why not submit your plans for approval and see what they say? Include diagrams and dimensions of the planter and perhaps a reception of what you'd like to grow in it and go from there. If they approve, get it in writing because you've been on this site long enough to know what happens when you don't. Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/14/2022 2:28 PM
It says the beds have to be 6 feet from the curb or sidewalk, if present, so my first question would be where do you want to place the planter. If it's the front yard have you measured where you want to place it so it doesn't run into the curb and/or sidewalk? How hard could that be?

I'm told when our community was built, the documents banned flower beds (the ones you dig in the ground and set borders around it) because the lawns went up to the window and those ARE part of the common area, our utility lines also run underground into the house from thecfront, all underground, so I'm sure there was a concern someone would fit too relevant or plant a shrub and it's roots would interfere with the sewer line (and years later, we did have issues with the now adult trees for the same reason).

Of course, people being people and wanting to decorate, the flower beds began popping up everywhere, and so the board said ok, you can have them, but you have to submit an exterior change request showing where it'll be placed and keep it free of weeds year round. I think there was also a requirement to remove the bed if you sold the house, but I something that was enforced very much because the next homeowner would plant whatever he/she wanted. Others received a notice about the weeds and decide to take it out and plant grass.

My home also has two flower beds underneath the front windows and the former owner had some wildflowers or something growing there. No pulled them up and now have chillies that look pretty (although I wish I could find the ones with different colors besides yellow). I change our the mulch every two years or so and haven't had any complaints.

You said you assumed a few things about what this CCR means, but unless you to start another fight with the board, Why not submit your plans for approval and see what they say? Include diagrams and dimensions of the planter and perhaps a reception of what you'd like to grow in it and go from there. If they approve, get it in writing because you've been on this site long enough to know what happens when you don't. Good luck!

I think you've missed the point of the posting.

There's no dissent or question about what the governing docs say. 90%+ of all homes have 'planter beds' within 6' of the sidewalk....aka mulch beds with shrubs, flowers, etc. There is no record, history, or precedence of needing to submit ACC requests for doing these small landscape adjustments, as confirmed by most members statements and previous HOA leadership.

The point of the post was to discuss what the definition of 'planter beds' might be.

You're question about "Why don't you submit..." is not part of the post, but let's discuss. Why submit an application for something that appears for all intents and purposes to be something that does not need or require a submission? If anything, all it does it open up a scenario to denial, which will start an HOA fight because now there is arbitrary/selective/capricious enforcement. Do you feel you need to submit an ACC application to plant some small flowers by your front door? Do you feel you need to submit an ACC application for *insert small thing here*?

I've already posted numerous times about things I'm doing that perfectly legal to do (both in the sense of state law and HOA CCR's), are not restricted or controlled by the HOA, and thus do not require even the consideration of an ACC application. Yes, there are specific things that require ACC applications, as defined in the governing documents, but just because a change is happening, doesn't mean it automatically requires an ACC application.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/14/2022 2:59 PM

Posted By SheliaH on 04/14/2022 2:28 PM
It says the beds have to be 6 feet from the curb or sidewalk, if present, so my first question would be where do you want to place the planter. If it's the front yard have you measured where you want to place it so it doesn't run into the curb and/or sidewalk? How hard could that be?

I'm told when our community was built, the documents banned flower beds (the ones you dig in the ground and set borders around it) because the lawns went up to the window and those ARE part of the common area, our utility lines also run underground into the house from thecfront, all underground, so I'm sure there was a concern someone would fit too relevant or plant a shrub and it's roots would interfere with the sewer line (and years later, we did have issues with the now adult trees for the same reason).

Of course, people being people and wanting to decorate, the flower beds began popping up everywhere, and so the board said ok, you can have them, but you have to submit an exterior change request showing where it'll be placed and keep it free of weeds year round. I think there was also a requirement to remove the bed if you sold the house, but I something that was enforced very much because the next homeowner would plant whatever he/she wanted. Others received a notice about the weeds and decide to take it out and plant grass.

My home also has two flower beds underneath the front windows and the former owner had some wildflowers or something growing there. No pulled them up and now have chillies that look pretty (although I wish I could find the ones with different colors besides yellow). I change our the mulch every two years or so and haven't had any complaints.

You said you assumed a few things about what this CCR means, but unless you to start another fight with the board, Why not submit your plans for approval and see what they say? Include diagrams and dimensions of the planter and perhaps a reception of what you'd like to grow in it and go from there. If they approve, get it in writing because you've been on this site long enough to know what happens when you don't. Good luck!

I think you've missed the point of the posting.

There's no dissent or question about what the governing docs say. 90%+ of all homes have 'planter beds' within 6' of the sidewalk....aka mulch beds with shrubs, flowers, etc. There is no record, history, or precedence of needing to submit ACC requests for doing these small landscape adjustments, as confirmed by most members statements and previous HOA leadership.

The point of the post was to discuss what the definition of 'planter beds' might be.

You're question about "Why don't you submit..." is not part of the post, but let's discuss. Why submit an application for something that appears for all intents and purposes to be something that does not need or require a submission? If anything, all it does it open up a scenario to denial, which will start an HOA fight because now there is arbitrary/selective/capricious enforcement. Do you feel you need to submit an ACC application to plant some small flowers by your front door? Do you feel you need to submit an ACC application for *insert small thing here*?

I've already posted numerous times about things I'm doing that perfectly legal to do (both in the sense of state law and HOA CCR's), are not restricted or controlled by the HOA, and thus do not require even the consideration of an ACC application. Yes, there are specific things that require ACC applications, as defined in the governing documents, but just because a change is happening, doesn't mean it automatically requires an ACC application.

And yet here you are, asking for our interpretation of this portion of the CCR.

If you’re convinced the board has no grounds to enforce this because they haven’t done it with anyone else (although you don’t know how long ago those planters were installed), what is the point of this conversation? You wanted an interpretation of the CCR and that’s what I gave you based on your highlighting the part about planter beds not being within six feet from the curb or sidewalk. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with me or vice versa.

A planter bed could be what I described in my previous response or…. an elevated bed several inches above the existing soil, with or without a bottom, of……an elevated planter box like a veg trug (I have one on my townhouse patio) or….a set of freestanding containers, large or small that hold all sorts of plants, from small trees to roses to a set of tomato plants. You didn’t provide an illustration of what you’re planning or what others have done, so what do you want to know?

Back in the 90s, this CCR may have be appropriate, but times and tastes change, and perhaps it is time for the board to consider what should be done about raised beds. We are not on your board and can’t predict what they will or won’t do, or how they’ll interpret this portion of the CCR. We don’t live in your community either, so at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what we think.

Why do you have an issue with ASKING THEM their definition of planter beds, showing them what you want to do and then having a conversation? Or are you still honked off about the bee brouhaha (yeah, that again) that you’re inclined to do whatever because they won’t listen to you anyway? Hell, they don’t even run meetings according to Roberts Rules of Order, do they?

As for whether you have to submit an exterior change request or not, that’s up to you, but it’s been said it’s better to ask for permission than forgiveness. For me, if I wind up throwing hands with the association, I’d rather have my ducks in a row and show the court I went to the board in good faith, but they hemmed and hawed, evaded the questions, got mad and refused to say anything definitive, all because I wanted to comply with the CCRs as I agreed to do when I purchased my home…

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/14/2022 4:42 PM

And yet here you are, asking for our interpretation of this portion of the CCR.

If you’re convinced the board has no grounds to enforce this because they haven’t done it with anyone else (although you don’t know how long ago those planters were installed), what is the point of this conversation? You wanted an interpretation of the CCR and that’s what I gave you based on your highlighting the part about planter beds not being within six feet from the curb or sidewalk. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with me or vice versa.

The post was asking for interpretation of what 'planter bed' means. You took it upon yourself to start talking about "can't you read, it says 6 feet"....

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/14/2022 4:42 PM

As for whether you have to submit an exterior change request or not, that’s up to you, but it’s been said it’s better to ask for permission than forgiveness. For me, if I wind up throwing hands with the association, I’d rather have my ducks in a row and show the court I went to the board in good faith, but they hemmed and hawed, evaded the questions, got mad and refused to say anything definitive, all because I wanted to comply with the CCRs as I agreed to do when I purchased my home…

No offense, but the colloquialism is the other way around...

I've said why my opinion is to not submit application for something that is not required to submit to. Why enter into a scenario that invites more hemming and hawing and more potential for drama and conflict, when not required to do so? And I've asked you specifically if you think that you should submit an ACC application for something as small as putting a potted plant by your front door. I don't know your CCR's, but I would assume something small like that doesn't require a submission. So, would you submit anyway?

How about this specifically: Would you, Shelia, submit an ACC application to hang a US flag on your porch? We all know its not required, but you seem to be promoting the opinion of asking permission for everything. Yes or no?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Seriously, a foreign country is getting blown apart and we are arguing about a RAISED planter? Where does it even state whether planters have to be raised or does raised even exist in the language.
You now why us property managers have to drink to keep sane.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 04/14/2022 5:49 PM
Seriously, a foreign country is getting blown apart and we are arguing about a RAISED planter? Where does it even state whether planters have to be raised or does raised even exist in the language.
You now why us property managers have to drink to keep sane.

I guess welcome to the HOA life? If your garage is painted a shade of beige not on the approved list of 5 different beiges, then you're staring down a lawsuit. Or didn't somebody post last month complaining that their neighbors lawn was green during the winter?

I mean, I'm not sure what you're getting at. The point of this site is to discuss HOA topics.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

If you wanted the definition of a planter, why not just Google it? It appears it's probably one that is raised to some extent.

I lived in an HOA once and my wife and I will NEVER live in one again.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

That's what I did to be certain...

Since the community does have something in its documents about planter beds, you can either ask the board to clarify any questions you may have or do what you're probably going to do anyway (and so you're seeking validation or something from this website). We will agree to disagree in the meantime and if it works out for you, hooray. Then you can move on to the next thing....

As for me, I assume NOTHING when it comes to HOA issues - 10 years on the board plus all the BS I've read from people on this website {including my own} tells me anyone can guess. It only takes a moment to pick up the phone and call the property manager or email the board. Or go to a board meeting and bring up the subject during the resident forum. I like to be as certain as I can be so my head doesn't explode debating terms, case law, or whatever, in case my common sense is on the fritz. Of course, I'm also lucky in that our board and property managers have always been pretty responsive.

Have a nice day - I'm going to watch some TV.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/14/2022 7:40 PM
I like to be as certain as I can be so my head doesn't explode debating terms, case law, or whatever, in case my common sense is on the fritz.

My common sense would say to put in the planter bed but making sure the planter bed is similar to that of these buzillion neighbors who have a planter bed at the described location, and who also, per AdamL1's asking around, never sought ACC approval. Why either make work for the Board/ACC or raise issues where there clearly are none?

If the Board or ACC wants to get in a lather, let them go for it. But said lather has to be be about all homes with these planter beds. If they target solely AdamL1's home, he is well-prepared to tell them where they can shove off.