💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
A new Board member wants our association to spend $30 - $50k to install a Bocce court in one of our parks.

Tw thoughts come to my mind:

1) I don't see Bocce courts very often in HOA or city parks, so I worry that if we install one, it will make the online blogs and then Bocce plays from all over will come to our private park and use it. Outsiders using our park upsets our homeowners.

2) How popular is Bocce anyway? I don't know anything about it. I know that I would never use a Bocce court if we had one.

Curious what others think about this idea, and perhaps how best we should approach this request as a Board.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:36 AM
A new Board member wants our association to spend $30 - $50k to install a Bocce court in one of our parks.
What the new Board member meant to say is:

"I would like to see if the owners would vote for an amendment to the governing documents authorizing a Bocce court on common area."
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/10/2022 8:41 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:36 AM
A new Board member wants our association to spend $30 - $50k to install a Bocce court in one of our parks.
What the new Board member meant to say is:

"I would like to see if the owners would vote for an amendment to the governing documents authorizing a Bocce court on common area."

Our governing documents do not contain verbiage as to what features are placed on the association property. That is left to the individual Boards for decisions.

We have 2 half court basketball courts, three or four children's play areas, dog walking paths, and grassy lawns for unstructured recreation activities, and information about all of that is not contained in our governing documents.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:46 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 04/10/2022 8:41 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:36 AM
A new Board member wants our association to spend $30 - $50k to install a Bocce court in one of our parks.
What the new Board member meant to say is:

"I would like to see if the owners would vote for an amendment to the governing documents authorizing a Bocce court on common area."


Our governing documents do not contain verbiage as to what features are placed on the association property. That is left to the individual Boards for decisions.

We have 2 half court basketball courts, three or four children's play areas, dog walking paths, and grassy lawns for unstructured recreation activities, and information about all of that is not contained in our governing documents.

I find it very hard to believe that you can add an amenity without owner approval. Your documents may not mention it but a statute may very well. Think about how dangerous this could be. According to you the Board could add a bowling alley and a movie theater.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:46 AM
Our governing documents do not contain verbiage as to what features are placed on the association property. That is left to the individual Boards for decisions.
Please quote the language that gives the Board carte blanche to construct whatever it wants in the parks.
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:46 AM

We have 2 half court basketball courts, three or four children's play areas, dog walking paths, and grassy lawns for unstructured recreation activities, and information about all of that is not contained in our governing documents.
Check the plats next. Exactly what, if anything, do the plats show as far as recreational amenities.

The plats are as legally powerful (or more so) than the Declaration. Plats are often a part of the Declaration. City/counties approve plats, for one, after a lengthy and expensive review by land use departments.

You do have a reputation here for having an interest in spending money on anything you want, ya know. From tools (of questionable need) to dinners out for the directors to gift cards for your personal favorite vendors (so it comes across) to more.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Since the bocce court would require upkeep, same as other amenities, it would become a reserve item as well as a capital expense now. So even though it's not mentioned specifically in your CC&Rs, I'm nearly certain that this would require approval of the membership.

And it would likely increase your insurance requirements to some extent, since as you point out it's an attractive nuisance.

I think it would be reasonable to poll the membership to see if they'd be willing to pay the costs (all of them) for this amenity. I'm guessing that you won't have the support, and you won't have to waste time/$$$ on drafting an amendment.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 04/10/2022 9:06 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:46 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 04/10/2022 8:41 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:36 AM
A new Board member wants our association to spend $30 - $50k to install a Bocce court in one of our parks.
What the new Board member meant to say is:

"I would like to see if the owners would vote for an amendment to the governing documents authorizing a Bocce court on common area."


Our governing documents do not contain verbiage as to what features are placed on the association property. That is left to the individual Boards for decisions.

We have 2 half court basketball courts, three or four children's play areas, dog walking paths, and grassy lawns for unstructured recreation activities, and information about all of that is not contained in our governing documents.


I find it very hard to believe that you can add an amenity without owner approval. Your documents may not mention it but a statute may very well. Think about how dangerous this could be. According to you the Board could add a bowling alley and a movie theater.

You know, when you mention it in that context, that sounds similar to what our attorney mentioned. New anemities require the vote of homeowners.

The projects that we have done so far all have been one for one replacement of what used to be there. For example, old swingset replaced with new. Old climbing structure replaced with new. Original picnic tables replaced with new picnic tables.

A Bocce court would not be a one for one replacement of what is already there, it would be something new.

I think it would be appropriate to reflect the attorney's thoughts on this and suggest we send it out to a homeowner vote if the Board as a whole is interested.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Thank about the Board tasking this new director--Lou"-- to bring the Board information for your next open meeting.

1. A description of what bocce ball is. The locations of such courts in your county. The estimated annual cost of maintenance from your landscaper. I believe special grass is needed and it may need to be replaced periodically, which implies it'd be a reserve item. And whatever else the board assigns Lou to provide. At that next meeting, the Board discusses Lou's findings. The Board votes on whether to pursue this further. If so, it assigns Lou the next step.

2. Lou designs a survey to administer to each household. The board approves the survey as is or with modifications.

3. Lou administers the survey to all households. It simply asks owners if they would use such an amenity, how often and if they are willing to pay $xx increase in annual dues to install and maintain it.

4. At a meeting, the board discusses the results and votes for or against his capital improvement.

The point is that the board should not spend its time on this desire -- let Lou do it and document everything every step of the way with written (not verbal) reports to the Board.

Or, at your next meeting it should be an agenda item and the Board can simply vote oh Lou pursing this or not. Certainly you have no budget for it in '22.

I've seen a few bocce (BAH-chee) ball courts and there's a public one a couple of miles from me in the heart of an old neighborhood that was settled by Italian immigrants. There's such a court on the grounds of a large old elegant hotel in our area. I've seen an indoor court in large Italian restaurant in CA. I don't recall seeing them in any of the other many states in which I've lived. But... I didn't look for them either.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Quote:

You do have a reputation here for having an interest in spending money on anything you want, ya know. From tools (of questionable need) to dinners out for the directors to gift cards for your personal favorite vendors (so it comes across) to more.

No, regardless of what I post here, I do not spend HOA money on anything I want. All reimbursements for me are approved by the Board at meetings and included in the meeting minutes.

With the specific issues you mention:

1) The small number of tools that I have purchased I need in order to oversee the project execution of our parks. The Board does not want to pay $150/hr for a project manager who comes with all of his own tools, so I end up doing that for free but do need to make a few small purchases.

2) I am not a proponent of dinners out for directors. This used to happen in the association and I posted here asking about that. We have never done that under my leadership and will not to.

3) The vendors that we are my personal favorite because they are the lowest cost and provide the best quality of work to my association. Each vendor is approved by the Board at a meeting with discussion. I make the recommendation on the vendor but it is approved by everyone.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
My understanding of Michael's expenditures comport with his above explanation. He does not have a bad rep with me.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
"A new board member" = 1 person.

There doesn't appear to be any demand for bocce in your community if you're not hearing about it, organically, as-is. In this case, it doesn't appear to be a good idea for your community.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I am awe struck that someone would mention such a thing.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
What Cathy and Augustin said.

And have this board member do some research on the costs to build the court and maintain it. He might also want to consider where the court would be placed - if it replaces another amenity, which he and how much would it cost to demolish it. If he wants this let him do the work in running the numbers.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LisaB21 (Texas)
Posts: 97
Posted:
Do you have a Non capital expenditure fund in addition to a Capital Expenditure fund? I am pretty sure you can only spend Cap Ex funds on repair, replacement, and maintenance of exisitng items. This account would normally be funded by your reserves and supported by updated reserve studies.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Forget the Bocce court. The board can buy a couple of corn hole boards for $100 or so. It's just as fun.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
I loved playing bocce ball at Nonno & Nonna's house, we didn't need a special court, just a flat grassy area. problem solved. Our developer left us with a horseshoe pit that nobody has ever used.
Nobody has ever used the charcoal grill at our community park either. I am going to inquire if we get rid of the grill will that reduce the insurance we pay. As for the horseshoe pit, I have asked
several times that we seek bids to see how much it would cost to convert that space into a fenced in dog run, It shouldn't be that crazy expensive.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I wouldn't put in any amenity without first doing the following:

1) Check with local community for any zoning or impervious surface limitation
2) Identify cost of install
3) Identify cost of upkeep
4) Identify cost of additional reserves
5) Survey the membership to see if the amenity would be used and there would be limited complaints on the increased assessments to pay for it.

The reason for the first step is based on actual happenings in my previous HOA.
It was discovered that County approval was required to change the landscape approved when the development was built.
We could not remove trees without replacing with exact type.
We could not increase impervious surfaces without studies and approval due to rain runoff.
It's a big pain in the behind.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Additionally, if the Association has $30K to spend, I would first verify that the Reserves are fully funded and assessments are properly set.

As a member, I would be very concerned if assessments were so high that there is $30K in discretionary income available to the board.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I'm late to the discussion but we do have a bocce court in our community. I believe the developer put it in 22 years ago. Our community is mostly 55+ even though we are not an official 55+ community. Even so, I don't think anyone under 65 even uses the bocce court. It does get used a couple of times a week. Maintenance isn't too expensive, but every few years we have to replace the canvas canopy over the court and replace the benches (older folks like to sit when not playing). It's more of a social thing than a sport.

I don't think any of the newer communities in our area have bocce. I think it's a niche sport.

Our documents do allow the board to close or add amenities without membership vote as long as they are under a certain dollar amount. It's a little dangerous, because the documents don't take into account the real-world issue of maintenance and then the addition to the reserve study as others have pointed out.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Owners and board members want things all the time. You can't say yes all the time but it isn't necessary to reflexively say no either. When someone in my community makes a request or suggestion, I tell them the board will consider a proposal that includes answers to the following:

Where will it go?
Will the city permit this project?
Are there any easements or utility lines that would prevent installation in the desired area?
Does that area have adequate parking nearby?
Will you need or want utilities for this amenity? If so, are there meters nearby or would new meters need to be installed?
Do you want to prohibit non owners from using this amenity? If so how do you propose restricting access?
Is this something a significant number of members want?
How will it affect the association's liability insurance?
How will its ongoing maintenance affect the reserve budget?
What will it cost to install?
If there isn't sufficient capital, how do you suggest funding it?
Are you able to serve on an ad-hoc committee to see this project through to completion?

Usually a member's interest in the project wanes after the first few questions and vanishes entirely by the middle of the list. One suggested amenity has been added over the years - a shade cover for the playground.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
And also, as I noted way above, let th director who wants it so balmy to do the legwork.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
There is no requirement that the CCRs have to amended to improve a capital improvement. There are governing document or state statues that require certain procedures to get membership approval for any project or one's that are a certain percentage of annual expenses. I have half my communities with pool, yet NONE have that or any amenity in their CCRs.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/10/2022 8:36 AM
A new Board member wants our association to spend $30 - $50k to install a Bocce court in one of our parks.

Tw thoughts come to my mind:

1) I don't see Bocce courts very often in HOA or city parks, so I worry that if we install one, it will make the online blogs and then Bocce plays from all over will come to our private park and use it. Outsiders using our park upsets our homeowners.

2) How popular is Bocce anyway? I don't know anything about it. I know that I would never use a Bocce court if we had one.

Curious what others think about this idea, and perhaps how best we should approach this request as a Board.


How much does it cost to build a bocce court?
A bocce ball court can cost anywhere from $7 to $14 per square foot if you plan to construct it yourself. Professional help will cost about $25 per square foot.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here