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PaulM33 (Texas)
Posts: 3
Posted:
We have one resident reporting on 7 neighbors about minor deed restrictions. They send in at least 4-6 reports every week about their neighbors setting out the trash too early (1 hour early) or parking on the street overnight (which is not illegal, but our builder put that in the deed restriction to keep construction vehicles off the streets while the neighborhood was built.

This resident has become a vigilante and is using our management company to harass their neighbors.

Is there anything the Board can do?
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 2:33 PM
We have one resident reporting on 7 neighbors about minor deed restrictions. They send in at least 4-6 reports every week about their neighbors setting out the trash too early (1 hour early) or parking on the street overnight (which is not illegal, but our builder put that in the deed restriction to keep construction vehicles off the streets while the neighborhood was built.

This resident has become a vigilante and is using our management company to harass their neighbors.

Is there anything the Board can do?
If the Board does not want to enforce certain board-created rules, then re-write the rules. If the Board does not want to enforce the covenants, explain why and risk litigation, while simultaneously seeking an owners' vote to amend the covenants.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Paul

Are they or are they not violations?
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 973
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 2:33 PM
We have one resident reporting on 7 neighbors about minor deed restrictions. They send in at least 4-6 reports every week about their neighbors setting out the trash too early (1 hour early) or parking on the street overnight (which is not illegal, but our builder put that in the deed restriction to keep construction vehicles off the streets while the neighborhood was built.

This resident has become a vigilante and is using our management company to harass their neighbors.

Is there anything the Board can do?

Has the Board discussed this situation with the PMC?

It’s an interesting (and probably not uncommon) situation - but also it seems like it’s largely a matter of “policy” and probably not covered explicitly in Bylaws or CCRs. I would think the PMC would want to avoid being used as a weapon / instrument of harassment by some homeowner with a grudge. I’d think an experienced PM could / would offer some advice and suggestions?

I’ll be curious about what other people have to say. We don’t currently have anyone quite as ‘devoted’ as your resident in my neighborhood, but we get various screwball complaints. Our ad hoc policy so far has been to ignore anything that’s submitted anonymously. I think it’s good for us - but it doesn’t help you much, sorry.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
What is the response your HOA responds with? Is it fines? Is there a time limit to correct? Plus maybe respond that this is a service your HOA pays for the MC to do. There is no need to keep reporting. Which you may or not pay the MC to do this but maybe respond in kind. I would send out a letter stating how the violation process works and reporting.

Former HOA President
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
I don’t send violation letters based solely on a neighbors complaint for exactly this reason. If I can’t observe it myself or get independent verification it’s just he said/she said. And my fee for camping out to catch rogue trash cans or street parking is $175/hr. ;)

PaulM33 (Texas)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Our management company charges us for sending the letters to the residents in response to the report from that person. We discussed all this at the meeting last night and I told our management to stop processing the person's reports unless they can confirm a violation. They were processing the claims based on time-stamped photos the person was sent in with their reports. I was wondering if we were in wrong by stopping processing their claims, or if we could take action on the vigilante.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 5:30 PM
Our management company charges us for sending the letters to the residents in response to the report from that person. We discussed all this at the meeting last night and I told our management to stop processing the person's reports unless they can confirm a violation. They were processing the claims based on time-stamped photos the person was sent in with their reports. I was wondering if we were in wrong by stopping processing their claims, or if we could take action on the vigilante.

Honestly, I would tell the vigilante to grow up and knock it off. The board does not feel it’s in the associations best interests to spend money enforcing a trash can placed out an hour early and will instruct the manager to no longer respond to their complaints.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
A homeowner can't "use" the PM or the board without their cooperation. Unless your CC&Rs say otherwise(*), the board is responsible for enforcing deed restrictions and may delegate some of the work to the PM. (* Some CC&Rs give homeowners the right to enforce directly through suing their neighbors for violations.)

Every community seems to have a few of these vigilantes. Similar to what Barbara said, we never send violation notices unless we get complaints from more than one homeowner, and/or the board/PM witnesses the violation, and/or the complainer provides audio or video evidence. All of our complaints must be in writing, and the form asks if the complainer would be willing to appear in court. Otherwise, it's just hearsay. Even if we'd get things wrong, the normal violation process that includes a hearing would weed out any false complaints.

As John alluded to, the neighborhood crank can't complain about your trash unless you're leaving it out. So perhaps people should clean up their acts? Ptherwise, the cranks usually get a reputation and others learn to ignore them.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/08/2022 2:53 PM
Paul

Are they or are they not violations?

This is the million dollar question. In addition is the complainer doing this because he/she is upset that no rules or regulations are being enforced?
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Many of these comments are exactly right. First you have to decide if it's a violation or not (regardless of who reported it) and whether your board wants to enforce it. In our HOA our PM doesn't immediately go to a violation notice unless it's something really serious. She sends an friendly email or calls on the phone to remind the person of our community rules. That solves about 90% of the problems.

We have several of these challenging residents who are always reporting each other. Usually if I get a complaint from one of them I acknowledge it (thanks for reaching out!) and ignore unless it's truly a violation that we do enforce.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 5:30 PM
Our management company charges us for sending the letters to the residents in response to the report from that person. We discussed all this at the meeting last night and I told our management to stop processing the person's reports unless they can confirm a violation. They were processing the claims based on time-stamped photos the person was sent in with their reports. I was wondering if we were in wrong by stopping processing their claims, or if we could take action on the vigilante.
Please cite the covenant or rule that you think the so-called "vigilante" has violated.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Suggestions for dealing with vigilantes:

* Remember: "brief, bland, boring". You want to remove the emotional benefit the person gets from stirring up trouble.

* "If it's not in writing, it's not a valid complaint." Create an Action Form that complainers need to complete to report the violation. The form should include the person's name and address, a description of the problem, and any evidence they have (photos, video, etc.). This creates a good record for your records and makes the complainer work for it. (If you really want to make a point, ask them to cite the portion of the governing documents that the homeowner is violating.)

* "Thank you for your comments." No further immediate response.

* Do not discuss the violation with the complainer - it's a board issue, and until they meet and discuss, there has been no official action. Any immediate response you make to the complainer will be out of turn, will be misinterpreted, and will give the person incentive to continue. If you reward behavior, you'll get more of it.

* Publish the violation process in the newsletter, community handbook, etc. If complainers know that there is a process that is followed every time, they'll soon learn that they won't see an immediate response (or possibly any response if enforcement actions are confidential in your community).
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
Late to the party but our HOA attorney says that we can always advise a homeowner that they are allowed to enforce the CC&Rs that the neighbor is violating through a private lawsuit.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
In my HOA, any report of a violation (verbal or written) is investigated by a BOD Member. If valid, we instruct the PM to send a violation letter which the PM does not charge for. We rarely, if ever, get any blow back from those receiving violation letters.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
Paul, the resident who does not appear to have any authority to report on anyone, is actually harassing people with these reports. The Board needs to step in and let the person clearly understand that this reporting is not acceptable and not their responsibility.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 04/09/2022 5:01 PM
Paul, the resident who does not appear to have any authority to report on anyone, is actually harassing people with these reports. The Board needs to step in and let the person clearly understand that this reporting is not acceptable and not their responsibility.

I'm lost. Why is a homeowner reporting a violation not acceptable?
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 04/09/2022 5:01 PM
Paul, the resident who does not appear to have any authority to report on anyone
Please cite a covenant or rule from any HOA nationwide that prohibits an owner from complaining to the HOA about another HOA owner (or the HOA owner's tenant) who is violating a covenant or rule.

You do realize that one of the main functions of SFH HOAs is to enforce the covenants, don't you?

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Setting the trash cans out one hour early is really nit picky. I know someone is going to say rules are rules. Unfortunately peoples schedules conflict with some
"rules". If they were putting the trash out a day earlier I see no issues with complaining, even eight hours early to complain may be iffy.
Sounds like this vigilante is opening themselves up to a huge lawsuit if their whatever continues.
PaulM33 (Texas)
Posts: 3
Posted:
I want to thank everyone for their replies.

I think what we will do is change our policy to when a resident sends in a complaint, either we need corroboration from another resident or the management company before the management company takes any action. IF one resident complains too much and it seems a problem, we will take more action to explain the policy in more detail to that resident and figure out what is happening.

We will have to talk to our lawyer to decide what information we can release to the "offending" resident if they feel they are being harassed and want to file a lawsuit.

Thanks again,

Paul

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Yes, of course homeowners can complain about others. It isn't possible for board members or the PM to have their eyes everywhere all the time - and our attorney told us that level of surveillance isn't appropriate.

If the complainer isn't in the neighbors' faces about it, then that's not harassment - and if he is, it's a police matter. It doesn't become harassment by the HOA unless and until the board/PM acts on the complaints, and that's entirely up to them (as it should be, it's their job).
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
Interesting response in that some went right to the governing documents for an answer. Our governing documents state that the Board enforces the rules and the Board and or the Property manager report possible violations. Fortunately, we do not have a vigilante(s) going around our association reporting on residents. Gee, Bob you put your garbage can out one hour too early, gee Bob your landscape bush is 3 inches too tall, gee Bob you have too many decorations in front of your unit.......
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 04/10/2022 6:14 AM
Interesting response in that some went right to the governing documents for an answer. Our governing documents state that the Board enforces the rules and the Board and or the Property manager report possible violations. Fortunately, we do not have a vigilante(s) going around our association reporting on residents. Gee, Bob you put your garbage can out one hour too early, gee Bob your landscape bush is 3 inches too tall, gee Bob you have too many decorations in front of your unit.......

Those nitpicky items you mention make me cringe. I so dislike this aspect of HOA living. Real life is not pristine and wrapped up with a pretty red bow. There is a time and a place to voice complaints but putting a garbage can out 1 hour early isn't one of them. I would tell the constant complainer to chill and reserve their complaints to the serious stuff. Sounds like an owner with not enough to do except spy on their neighbors.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 04/10/2022 6:14 AM
Interesting response in that some went right to the governing documents for an answer.
Do you think the governing documents do not govern how a HOA/COA should operate?

Every competent HOA/COA manager, director and officer should always, without fail, turn first to the governing documents to determine a course of action on all non-emergency situations.

Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 04/10/2022 6:14 AM
Our governing documents state that the Board enforces the rules and the Board and or the Property manager report possible violations.
First, please quote exactly what your covenants say on this point.

Second, how does this mean to you that an owner cannot report a possible violation to the Board or manager? Unless the governing documents prohibit an owner from reporting a possible violation, then I do not see support for your contention that owners/residents shall not report possible violations to the manager or board.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Unless there is safety involved can the Board or Management encourage the complaining neighbor to have a conversation with the neighbor violating the garbage rule. Maybe the neighbor putting the garbage out early is because they have to leave for work before the rule states. Maybe the complainer is disturbed by the noise of putting the garbage out that early. I think encouraging conversations between neighbors can be valuable.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/09/2022 8:43 AM
Late to the party but our HOA attorney says that we can always advise a homeowner that they are allowed to enforce the CC&Rs that the neighbor is violating through a private lawsuit.

Uhh, are you sure? I don't know if I've ever seen a case like that, where individual members are suing each other over the shared HOA contract.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 2:33 PM

This resident has become a vigilante and is using our management company to harass their neighbors.

Quote:
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 5:30 PM
Our management company charges us for sending the letters to the residents in response to the report from that person. We discussed all this at the meeting last night and I told our management to stop processing the person's reports unless they can confirm a violation. They were processing the claims based on time-stamped photos the person was sent in with their reports. I was wondering if we were in wrong by stopping processing their claims, or if we could take action on the vigilante.

1st Question: how is reporting a violation to the Management Company translate to harassing the neighbors? Is your PMC just blindly sending a violation notice to anyone that gets a complaint against them? No investigation or review? That's your first problem to address. Any complaints should go to the Board for review and next actions, rather than just direct from complainer to PMC to violator.

Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/08/2022 2:53 PM

Are they or are they not violations?

2nd question: this is the next fundamental thing. Is it an actual violation? Does the HOA have authority and jurisdiction to address the issue? There's a hierarchy of jurisdiction and a flow chart for investigation complaints. See here: https://imgur.com/a/1QfsxdW

Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/08/2022 5:52 PM

Honestly, I would tell the vigilante to grow up and knock it off. The board does not feel it’s in the associations best interests to spend money enforcing a trash can placed out an hour early and will instruct the manager to no longer respond to their complaints.

This is terrible advice. If there's a rule/CCR, then it needs to be enforced or an official Memo released by the Board stating they are abandoning that rule, or amend the documents to remove the rule. Just telling the complainer to stop complaining is a dereliction of the Boards duty.

Cathy's post is perfect!
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 04/10/2022 9:10 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/09/2022 8:43 AM
Late to the party but our HOA attorney says that we can always advise a homeowner that they are allowed to enforce the CC&Rs that the neighbor is violating through a private lawsuit.


Uhh, are you sure? I don't know if I've ever seen a case like that, where individual members are suing each other over the shared HOA contract.

I haven't checked for case law, but I've read a few sets of governing docs that did allow members to do this. All of the documents were for HOAs, not COAs - don't know if that's significant or not.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Per our Covenants:

Section 1. Enforcement. Each Owner and Occupant shall comply strictly with the Bylaws, the rules and regulations, the use restrictions, as they may be lawfully amended or modified from time to time, and with the covenants, conditions and restrictions set forth in this Declaration and in the deed to such Owner's Lot, if any. The Board of Directors may impose fines or other sanctions, which shall be collected as provided herein for the collection of assessments. Failure to comply with this Declaration, the Bylaws or the rules and regulations shall be grounds for an action to recover sums due for damages or injunctive relief, or both maintainable by the Board of Directors, on behalf of the Association, or, in a proper case, by an aggrieved Owner.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I believe the case law is full of one owner suing another owner to enforce covenants. Sometimes the first owner simultaneously sues the HOA.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
I think, in the United States, homeowners are allowed to complain to their hearts content about another homeowner. Freedom of speech is one of our basic freedoms we have in our country.

Now, whether anyone listens is a different story.

Of course, I could tell you about my HOA that told me, point blank, that I really should move to a different community based on the volume of my complaints. I am now the HOA president for that community, and I don't make a habit of telling people who complain that they really ought to move somewhere else.
PaulaB7 (Georgia)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I thought it was the BOD responsibility to enforce Declarations. If they need Changing that decision is up to the community to vote, not arbitrary decided by the board. Am I wrong?
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 5:30 PM
Our management company charges us for sending the letters to the residents in response to the report from that person . . .

This needs to change too. IMO, when a MC is incentivized to prepare and send violation letters to homeowners, this is a recipe for disaster. MCs see this as a revenue stream . . . the more letters that get sent, the more money they make. Letters that take minutes to prepare cost the association $10, $20, $30 each time.

I also wouldn't put it past some short-sighted, unscrupulous MCs to intentionally want to create disharmony within an association; with one of the simpler ways to accomplish this being the somewhat indiscriminate sending of violation letters (especially for petty things). Disharmony in an HOA generates reliance on the MC to do things and remain involved . . . send letters, track violations, engage/re-engage the attorney, send more letters, apply and collect fines/fees, generate account statements, process delinquencies, check/re-check for compliance, log the violations and status to resolution, provide updates to the Board, etc., etc. . . . all of which, depending on the contract, could be items billed to the HOA at different rates or as additional services (beyond scope of contract).
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ND on 04/21/2022 9:09 AM
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 5:30 PM
Our management company charges us for sending the letters to the residents in response to the report from that person . . .


This needs to change too. IMO, when a MC is incentivized to prepare and send violation letters to homeowners, this is a recipe for disaster. MCs see this as a revenue stream . . . the more letters that get sent, the more money they make. Letters that take minutes to prepare cost the association $10, $20, $30 each time.

I also wouldn't put it past some short-sighted, unscrupulous MCs to intentionally want to create disharmony within an association; with one of the simpler ways to accomplish this being the somewhat indiscriminate sending of violation letters (especially for petty things). Disharmony in an HOA generates reliance on the MC to do things and remain involved . . . send letters, track violations, engage/re-engage the attorney, send more letters, apply and collect fines/fees, generate account statements, process delinquencies, check/re-check for compliance, log the violations and status to resolution, provide updates to the Board, etc., etc. . . . all of which, depending on the contract, could be items billed to the HOA at different rates or as additional services (beyond scope of contract).

I agree that management companies shouldn't charge per letter (beyond nominal reimbursement for postage, paper and envelopes) but it's honestly laughable to me that anyone thinks a manager would intentionally send out more letters than necessary to create disharmony in order to keep the account or generate income.

Managers typically hate sending out violation letters. It's time consuming, unpleasant, and the week after they've been spent you field hateful emails and phone calls. And unless the manager is also the owner of the management company, they don't particularly care about making more money for the management company. It's not like we see any of it.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/08/2022 2:43 PM
Posted By PaulM33 on 04/08/2022 2:33 PM
We have one resident reporting on 7 neighbors about minor deed restrictions. They send in at least 4-6 reports every week about their neighbors setting out the trash too early (1 hour early) or parking on the street overnight (which is not illegal, but our builder put that in the deed restriction to keep construction vehicles off the streets while the neighborhood was built.

This resident has become a vigilante and is using our management company to harass their neighbors.

Is there anything the Board can do?
If the Board does not want to enforce certain board-created rules, then re-write the rules. If the Board does not want to enforce the covenants, explain why and risk litigation, while simultaneously seeking an owners' vote to amend the covenants.

A resident is enforcing the rules, not the Board. Management companies, as a general rule, hate sending out violations, as we get the brute of the hate mail.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 04/21/2022 3:12 PM
A resident is enforcing the rules, not the Board. Management companies, as a general rule, hate sending out violations, as we get the brute of the hate mail.
?

A resident is reporting violations to the MC/Board. If the MC/Board does not want to enforce the covenants, then what happens next is anyone's guess.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
The question regards a neighbor passive aggressively using HOA process to harass their neighbors. These repeated complaints are not being filed to improve the neighborhood.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
The OP has not confirmed whether actual violations are occurring or not. Until then, I think evaluating the situation fairly is not possible.
LanceG1 (Georgia)
Posts: 97
Posted:
I'll tell an interesting story about this.

Before our HOA was turned over to the owners we had a neighbor that would report everything to the management company and nasty grams would dutifully be sent out with photos. Our welcome to the neighborhood was a bunch of nasty grams with minor infractions. After a few months we had a suspicion of who it was and used our camera to catch them in action. The rest of the neighbors had set up a community sourced mailing list outside of the HOA. So we sent out a message saying that we recently received a notice with a photo and when we checked out camera noticed that it was a neighbor that did that (without mentioning it).

Within minutes the complaining member came to our door and fessed up berating me (I closed the door on them) and I received several private messages that all asked if it was the neighbor we had identified, but not outed publicly. I privately confirmed it was indeed this neighbor. That lead to some other neighbors helping to organize a group to talk to the developer to ask this to stop which was successful and it stopped.

Now here is the irony, this happened during the housing crisis and the complaining neighbors ended up having their house foreclosed on after trying to do a short sale. When the for sale sign went a bunch of neighbors threw an impromptu party to celebrate the complainers leaving.

These days I'm on the board and when we've had people like this I've tried to do is re-direct their energy towards things that we need help with while diplomatically acknowledging and slow walking harassing complaints. Also, it is a bad idea to let the MC issue violations without review IMHO.
MichelleC8 (California)
Posts: 80
Posted:
Right??
GeorgeB11 (Illinois)
Posts: 6
Posted:
I suppose I might be considered a "vigilante" by some.
Blatant violations of the CC&Rs amounts to a disrespect for one's neighbors.
I've noticed that violations may demonstrate a "slow creep", with similar violations spreading to neighbors.
I equate it to "The Broken Windows Theory".
Although the theory is commonly applied to crime and policing, I believe it also applies to HOA communities and CC&Rs.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/broken-windows-theory

LanceG1 (Georgia)
Posts: 97
Posted:
That theory has been debunked https://news.northeastern.edu/2019/05/15/northeastern-university-researchers-find-little-evidence-for-broken-windows-theory-say-neighborhood-disorder-doesnt-cause-crime/ . IMHO it depends on the infraction. If you have a neighbor that is holding loud parties keeping everybody up at night then yeah, I'd agree with you. But on the other hand, if you are getting bent out of shape because your neighbors yard is mowed, but not a pristine field that only has one variety of grass such as Bermuda, Fescue, etc. then you need to get a life because that neighbor just has different priorities.
GeorgeB11 (Illinois)
Posts: 6
Posted:
I noted that the theory is largely applied to crime but can also apply to transgressions of the CCRs. I submit that most homeowners are blissfully unaware of the restrictions imposed in the CCRs. One neighbor, for example, installs a (violating) fire pit in the back yard and that leads to a second neighbor doing so. Then a third, and so on.

I have yet to see "different priorities" enumerated in CCRs.

You should not make assertions based on fantasy.

I presume you don't have Bermuda or Fescue.
LanceG1 (Georgia)
Posts: 97
Posted:
I would suggest that you ask for more details before suggesting that I'm making assertions based on fantasy.

Many covenants, such as ours, give the HOA and ACC discretion. For example, with ours, playground equipment is prohibited unless approved by the ACC and any alteration done without approval auto approves after 6 months. Ours also doesn't specify that your yard needs to be weed free but does give the ACC discretion to adopt a standard requiring it. In our case our management company tried to argue that we did have that requirement because ours does say that you need to keep it seeded and watered. We, as the board board pushed back against that because that would not meet the "reasonable person" challenge in our area and is heavy handed.

Also, for the record, I actually do treat my yard and do not have weeds. But, at one point I was against doing that to my yard because of the concern over the chemicals. Many owners in our community have that concern and other priorities. So, rather than being dictators, our board actually tries to represent the desire of the owners. Also, if enough homeowners are violating the CCR's it might indicate that the owners disagree with them and rather than enforcement, an effort to amend them may be in order. There is a fine line between a neighbor being disrespectful and an offended neighbor being a dictatorial control freak that wants to dictate/control how their neighbors should live.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LanceG1 on 05/07/2022 12:07 PM
I would suggest that you ask for more details before suggesting that I'm making assertions based on fantasy.

Many covenants, such as ours, give the HOA and ACC discretion. For example, with ours, playground equipment is prohibited unless approved by the ACC and any alteration done without approval auto approves after 6 months. Ours also doesn't specify that your yard needs to be weed free but does give the ACC discretion to adopt a standard requiring it. In our case our management company tried to argue that we did have that requirement because ours does say that you need to keep it seeded and watered. We, as the board board pushed back against that because that would not meet the "reasonable person" challenge in our area and is heavy handed.

Also, for the record, I actually do treat my yard and do not have weeds. But, at one point I was against doing that to my yard because of the concern over the chemicals. Many owners in our community have that concern and other priorities. So, rather than being dictators, our board actually tries to represent the desire of the owners. Also, if enough homeowners are violating the CCR's it might indicate that the owners disagree with them and rather than enforcement, an effort to amend them may be in order. There is a fine line between a neighbor being disrespectful and an offended neighbor being a dictatorial control freak that wants to dictate/control how their neighbors should live.


Good for you!
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LanceG1 on 05/07/2022 12:07 PM
I would suggest that you ask for more details before suggesting that I'm making assertions based on fantasy.

Many covenants, such as ours, give the HOA and ACC discretion. For example, with ours, playground equipment is prohibited unless approved by the ACC and any alteration done without approval auto approves after 6 months. Ours also doesn't specify that your yard needs to be weed free but does give the ACC discretion to adopt a standard requiring it. In our case our management company tried to argue that we did have that requirement because ours does say that you need to keep it seeded and watered. We, as the board board pushed back against that because that would not meet the "reasonable person" challenge in our area and is heavy handed.

Also, for the record, I actually do treat my yard and do not have weeds. But, at one point I was against doing that to my yard because of the concern over the chemicals. Many owners in our community have that concern and other priorities. So, rather than being dictators, our board actually tries to represent the desire of the owners. Also, if enough homeowners are violating the CCR's it might indicate that the owners disagree with them and rather than enforcement, an effort to amend them may be in order. There is a fine line between a neighbor being disrespectful and an offended neighbor being a dictatorial control freak that wants to dictate/control how their neighbors should live.


I agree up to a point. The consensus on certain things, such as spraying chemicals all over the place, can change over time. So can the community demographics and its needs. It makes sense for the CC&Rs to change along with them.

On the other hand, buyers presumably knew what they were buying and they agreed to abide by the covenants as they existed at the time of sale. Nobody hid the information, nobody held a gun to their heads. Real estate disclosures exist for a reason.

I don't know any board members who enjoy enforcement. It is a royal pain in the keister most of the time, and you can bet that those who are violating the terms they agreed to abide by will blame everyone but themselves over it.

I also agree that enforcement should find a sweet spot somewhere between "police state" and "ignore everything". Unfortunately reasonable people can disagree over where that sweet spot it. And while being reasonable is a good thing, in practice variable standards means nobody knows for sure what's OK, can result in selective enforcement, and can encourage arguing over it. I personally prefer fewer rules that are as black-and-white as possible and are strictly enforced, both as a homeowner and as a board member.

Finally amending the CC&Rs costs money (legal and other expenses) and enforcement uses up board members' time which already is limited. So flexibility comes with a price tag.

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