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DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Our state attorney general publishes a set of guidelines for running board elections. These apparently are not mandatory. One of the items is that completed ballots should be placed inside a "ballot envelope", and this ballot envelope is what is either mailed or hand delivered to the ballot box for those people who vote early. This way, not completed ballot is visible to anyone until the counting process begins.

Our property manager has chosen to skip the use of ballot envelopes. Instead, mailed-in ballots will be opened and the "naked ballot" will be placed in the ballot box. In addition, anyone who hand delivers their ballots will place their naked ballot into the box. This means the property manager will see a large number of the completed ballots well in advance.

While I doubt our property manager would do anything nefarious, I don't completely eliminate the possibility that they could manipulate the results by "losing" ballots for candidates who they don't prefer (because a number of us have already expressed over the last year a desire to replace our current property manager with a different company.)

So I am debating how heavily to press them to more strictly adhere to the AG guidelines, based primarily on feedback I get from other HOA's. Does your HOA use the more secure "secret ballot" method, or do you use the "naked ballot" method?
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
I look at the ballots/proxies prior to the election to ensure that they are correctly filled out. Many, many times they are not. They aren't completely filled out, they aren't signed, the handwriting isn't legible, the name doesn't match what's on the deed, they vote for too many candidates, they have crossed out, circled and checked names to a point that their intent isn't clear, the husband and wife both send in a ballot, if it's a proxy they might check both the "board secretary" box AND the box for designating an individual, or they check the box to designate an individual but don't put in a name...

I check ballots cast at the meeting for the same things.

Checking the ballots ahead of time allows me to contact the owner so they can fix it. If they don't fix it, it has to be discarded. We'd never even make quorum if I didn't do this. There are always a few people who hand in a ballot an hour before the meeting, or send it with another owner, and there isn't time to fix it so they have to be discarded anyway.

I don't pay attention to who they voted for beyond confirming that their intent is clear and that they didn't vote for too many candidates.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/01/2022 7:54 AM
I look at the ballots/proxies prior to the election to ensure that they are correctly filled out. Many, many times they are not. They aren't completely filled out, they aren't signed, the handwriting isn't legible, the name doesn't match what's on the deed, they vote for too many candidates, they have crossed out, circled and checked names to a point that their intent isn't clear, the husband and wife both send in a ballot, if it's a proxy they might check both the "board secretary" box AND the box for designating an individual, or they check the box to designate an individual but don't put in a name...

I check ballots cast at the meeting for the same things.

Checking the ballots ahead of time allows me to contact the owner so they can fix it. If they don't fix it, it has to be discarded. We'd never even make quorum if I didn't do this. There are always a few people who hand in a ballot an hour before the meeting, or send it with another owner, and there isn't time to fix it so they have to be discarded anyway.

I don't pay attention to who they voted for beyond confirming that their intent is clear and that they didn't vote for too many candidates.


It's interesting that you mention signature, because our AG's instructions specifically say the ballots should not be signed. I'm puzzled by that.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 8:08 AM
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/01/2022 7:54 AM
I look at the ballots/proxies prior to the election to ensure that they are correctly filled out. Many, many times they are not. They aren't completely filled out, they aren't signed, the handwriting isn't legible, the name doesn't match what's on the deed, they vote for too many candidates, they have crossed out, circled and checked names to a point that their intent isn't clear, the husband and wife both send in a ballot, if it's a proxy they might check both the "board secretary" box AND the box for designating an individual, or they check the box to designate an individual but don't put in a name...

I check ballots cast at the meeting for the same things.

Checking the ballots ahead of time allows me to contact the owner so they can fix it. If they don't fix it, it has to be discarded. We'd never even make quorum if I didn't do this. There are always a few people who hand in a ballot an hour before the meeting, or send it with another owner, and there isn't time to fix it so they have to be discarded anyway.

I don't pay attention to who they voted for beyond confirming that their intent is clear and that they didn't vote for too many candidates.



It's interesting that you mention signature, because our AG's instructions specifically say the ballots should not be signed. I'm puzzled by that.

Different strokes for different states?

I'm also including absentee ballots, directed proxies, and proxies. I can't imagine accepting an unsigned proxy.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
As long as the state's guidelines are just that, I don't think that you necessarily have to change a process that's working successfully. But I expect this would vary widely depending on the nature of your community and your current bylaws..

Our voting is all in-person, with proxies counting toward quorum only. This is in keeping with our bylaws.

Fortunately we're a small enough community that people know each other. Only verified homeowners at the meeting receive ballots. The ballots themselves are very simple, with only check boxes in front of candidates' names. Instructions are announced and repeated - it would be hard to mess up. Results are announced after the count has been verified by two independent homeowners.

Any monkey business would have to happen in full view of everyone at the meeting,
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/01/2022 8:31 AM
As long as the state's guidelines are just that, I don't think that you necessarily have to change a process that's working successfully. But I expect this would vary widely depending on the nature of your community and your current bylaws..

Our voting is all in-person, with proxies counting toward quorum only. This is in keeping with our bylaws.

Fortunately we're a small enough community that people know each other. Only verified homeowners at the meeting receive ballots. The ballots themselves are very simple, with only check boxes in front of candidates' names. Instructions are announced and repeated - it would be hard to mess up. Results are announced after the count has been verified by two independent homeowners.

Any monkey business would have to happen in full view of everyone at the meeting,

This is our first election - with over 500 homes at this point. So I don't know if this process is working or not. I'm not trying to avoid changing the process; if anything I will be the one pushing for a change. My concern is that the lax security does provide our property manager with an opportunity for foul play; and I don't trust our property manager.

But I guess so far we are 2 for 2 in HOA's that are pretty casual with the handling of the ballots.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
As my comments -

We'll probably never have another paper election, so I can't comment about the envelopes, etc.

For our community, we have a survey form setup on Microsoft Forms. The survey has options to vote who to get into office, a couple advisory votes, and two fields for personal data. One is the account number of the homeowner which we provide to them. The second field is their name. We require both fields to be filled out because we need to validate that someone authorized to vote casts the ballot. The account number is known only to the homeowner, not neighbors, for example.

We do mail or e-mail paper copies of the ballots to every homeowner and they are welcome to fill out the information, scan or photograph the form, and e-mail it in, or they can mail it in. About 95% used the electronic survey, 4% scanned and e-mailed, and 1 homeowner mailed it on via USPS mail.

This works well. It is not a secret ballot as whomever runs the election can see who votes for whom. It is not a problem in our community as we have to pull teeth to get people to run and do not have contested elections. If the elections were contested, we'd probably see if our property manager could run the election as the neutral party, but don't anticipate that being an issue anytime soon.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/01/2022 9:01 AM
As my comments -

We'll probably never have another paper election, so I can't comment about the envelopes, etc.

For our community, we have a survey form setup on Microsoft Forms. The survey has options to vote who to get into office, a couple advisory votes, and two fields for personal data. One is the account number of the homeowner which we provide to them. The second field is their name. We require both fields to be filled out because we need to validate that someone authorized to vote casts the ballot. The account number is known only to the homeowner, not neighbors, for example.

We do mail or e-mail paper copies of the ballots to every homeowner and they are welcome to fill out the information, scan or photograph the form, and e-mail it in, or they can mail it in. About 95% used the electronic survey, 4% scanned and e-mailed, and 1 homeowner mailed it on via USPS mail.

This works well. It is not a secret ballot as whomever runs the election can see who votes for whom. It is not a problem in our community as we have to pull teeth to get people to run and do not have contested elections. If the elections were contested, we'd probably see if our property manager could run the election as the neutral party, but don't anticipate that being an issue anytime soon.

Thanks. In the future I would love it if we pursued electronic voting. Currently we have sixteen candidates for five positions, some of whom are pretty hostile towards others. So it's going to be interesting.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
First, David, are the AG "guidelines" the law? Or just suggestions? Are they specifically for homeowners associations?

That other states are so casual has nothing to do with your state.

In CA all owners receive a ballot and two envelopes by USPS. The voter must sign & write their property address on the outer envelope; the ballot goes inside the inner envelope and the voter can mail in or hand deliver the ballot to our PM. By law, ballots are opened at an open meeting and any owner can observe the opening & tabulating, which is by 1-3 "inspectors of election," who are selected by the Board. This approach gives some level of confidence to owners that fraud isn't occurring.

Given your issues with the PM, I'd be really leery of permitting her to open the ballots unsupervised. But how do you get her to follow the "gudilines" when you seem to have no contact with your developer?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I don't know that I'd call our process "casual". It's certainly low-tech, but the opportunities for changing election outcomes through ballot tampering are pretty much non-existent.

Election outcomes *can* be affected through soliciting proxies, which is a perfectly legal method of getting people's votes. People who've never encountered it before can think it looks shady, but it isn't.

And our proxies must be signed and dated, with the homeowner's address o them. Our PM collects these, and any duplicates or questionable ones will found ahead of the election and put aside (we don't throw them out, we just don't count them and don't give the named proxy holder a ballot). Examples of these: unsigned or undated proxies, husband and wife both complete proxies, or a tenant completes one.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Talking to other HOAs is fine, but since you don't live in them, why not talk to the homeowners in YOUR community to see if they have any concerns about the election process?

You can always publish an article on your website or community newsletter (or both) stating the attorney general has published recommendations for conducting board elections, the board is considering adopting some or all of them, but first, you'd like to know if people have had any concerns about the current process. Remind people what that is and encourage them to write in (or use Survey Monkey or something like that where people could list their concerns). Based on what you see, the board (assuming you're on it) can make adjustments as needed.

Don't overthink this. While you're at it, this would be a good time to ask for volunteers to serve as counters for the next annual meeting. If you do this now, you'll have procedures in place and can train them on what they'll need to do, while ensuring the process is fair. The most your property manager should do is collect the ballots and bring them (unopened) to the meeting. If you have a lockable mailbox at your clubhouse, you could have people drop ballots in there, check for new envelopes daily, and then lock them in a secure location to be opened by two people at the appropriate time.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/01/2022 9:16 AM
First, David, are the AG "guidelines" the law? Or just suggestions? Are they specifically for homeowners associations?

That other states are so casual has nothing to do with your state.

In CA all owners receive a ballot and two envelopes by USPS. The voter must sign & write their property address on the outer envelope; the ballot goes inside the inner envelope and the voter can mail in or hand deliver the ballot to our PM. By law, ballots are opened at an open meeting and any owner can observe the opening & tabulating, which is by 1-3 "inspectors of election," who are selected by the Board. This approach gives some level of confidence to owners that fraud isn't occurring.

Given your issues with the PM, I'd be really leery of permitting her to open the ballots unsupervised. But how do you get her to follow the "gudilines" when you seem to have no contact with your developer?

The guidelines are basically a copy of California's laws, so the ballot handling is exactly as you described. However, they are not law in Delaware.

As far as convincing the PM, what I have done in the past when they are doing something shady (such as ignoring the Declarant Control Termination date specific in our Declarations) is send an email to the PM with our attorney and developer in CC:. In this case, I would ask the other candidates do the same thing, and I'm sure at least half would. It's just an application of pressure. But if most HOA's don't use California's strict procedures, it may not be worth the stress of pushing one more issue.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/01/2022 9:25 AM
Talking to other HOAs is fine, but since you don't live in them, why not talk to the homeowners in YOUR community to see if they have any concerns about the election process?

You can always publish an article on your website or community newsletter (or both) stating the attorney general has published recommendations for conducting board elections, the board is considering adopting some or all of them, but first, you'd like to know if people have had any concerns about the current process. Remind people what that is and encourage them to write in (or use Survey Monkey or something like that where people could list their concerns). Based on what you see, the board (assuming you're on it) can make adjustments as needed.

Don't overthink this. While you're at it, this would be a good time to ask for volunteers to serve as counters for the next annual meeting. If you do this now, you'll have procedures in place and can train them on what they'll need to do, while ensuring the process is fair. The most your property manager should do is collect the ballots and bring them (unopened) to the meeting. If you have a lockable mailbox at your clubhouse, you could have people drop ballots in there, check for new envelopes daily, and then lock them in a secure location to be opened by two people at the appropriate time.


The article probably would have been a good idea. I fear it's late in the process now, and the PM would tell everyone I was being unethical in trying to affect the election since I am a candidate.

As far as asking for volunteers, changing the procedures, that is completely out of my hand. The Developer still controls the vote, and since he is disengage from the process the Property Manager is running things however they see fit, with no oversight other than any outrage I can stir among the residents.

They are going to have a lockbox at our clubhouse. I believe I will be monitoring that box closely. Fortunately, our on-site PM person is fine. It's her boss -- who lives in another town -- who is the problem.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Well if you're still under developer control, you're correct that it runs the show until the homeowners take 9ver the community.

However, the property manager isn't God and this election hasn't been held yet. Maybe you should step back and wait to see how it goes. If you win, take the opportunity to read your documents- if you're going to live in this community, that's step one, whether you're on the board or not.

As the day approaches to the homeowners taking over, you can revisit the election issue,if necessary. in addition to the board working on a transition plan, you can talk about updating the bylaws to delete all references to the developer and maybe amemd the election procedures..

Community transitions fo take a lot of time and energy, so you may want to focus on that first. Part of that will include the property manager if the off site person is truly awful, the board may decide a new one is necessary. For now, watch and learn

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/01/2022 3:38 PM
Well if you're still under developer control, you're correct that it runs the show until the homeowners take 9ver the community.

However, the property manager isn't God and this election hasn't been held yet. Maybe you should step back and wait to see how it goes. If you win, take the opportunity to read your documents- if you're going to live in this community, that's step one, whether you're on the board or not.

As the day approaches to the homeowners taking over, you can revisit the election issue,if necessary. in addition to the board working on a transition plan, you can talk about updating the bylaws to delete all references to the developer and maybe amemd the election procedures..

Community transitions fo take a lot of time and energy, so you may want to focus on that first. Part of that will include the property manager if the off site person is truly awful, the board may decide a new one is necessary. For now, watch and learn

I think you don’t get where I’m coming from. I have been the lone resident board member for the last two years, and I know our governing documents forward and backwards. I am specifically concerned about this election, not future ones. I am concerned because the PM is God right now, because the Developer is disengaged and has allowed them to run the show, as just one vote. I am powerless. And the PM absolutely does not want me on the board because they know I intend to fire them.

My immediate problem is that our documents are silent on the machinations of running our elections. I wish that our AG’s guidelines were mandatory, but they are not. So I am curious if this insecure methodology is so typical with HOA’s as to make it difficult for me to wage a successful pressure campaign against the PM.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/01/2022 3:38 PM
Well if you're still under developer control, you're correct that it runs the show until the homeowners take 9ver the community.

However, the property manager isn't God and this election hasn't been held yet. Maybe you should step back and wait to see how it goes. If you win, take the opportunity to read your documents- if you're going to live in this community, that's step one, whether you're on the board or not.

As the day approaches to the homeowners taking over, you can revisit the election issue,if necessary. in addition to the board working on a transition plan, you can talk about updating the bylaws to delete all references to the developer and maybe amemd the election procedures..

Community transitions fo take a lot of time and energy, so you may want to focus on that first. Part of that will include the property manager if the off site person is truly awful, the board may decide a new one is necessary. For now, watch and learn

I think you don’t get where I’m coming from. I have been the lone resident board member for the last two years, and I know our governing documents forward and backwards. I am specifically concerned about this election, not future ones. I am concerned because the PM is God right now, because the Developer is disengaged and has allowed them to run the show, as just one vote. I am powerless. And the PM absolutely does not want me on the board because they know I intend to fire them.

My immediate problem is that our documents are silent on the machinations of running our elections. I wish that our AG’s guidelines were mandatory, but they are not. So I am curious if this insecure methodology is so typical with HOA’s as to make it difficult for me to wage a successful pressure campaign against the PM.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 4:07 PM
I am concerned because the PM is God right now, because the Developer is disengaged and has allowed them to run the show, as just one vote. I am powerless. And the PM absolutely does not want me on the board because they know I intend to fire them.
...
[snippage]
So I am curious if this insecure methodology is so typical with HOA’s as to make it difficult for me to wage a successful pressure campaign against the PM.
For the bad guys to have the power and so either throw the election or use devious means is not unusual.

Other owners and you pay your hard-earned money to this manager. For the manager to take steps that may be ensuring you do not get on the board, and all so the (corrupt) manager is not fired, is painful. Toss in two years of hard work by you to get this HOA off on the correct foot and then some. It may very well be for nothing if a bunch of neophytes are elected and they do not go first to the governing documents to determine their every move in the next 12 months. Worse, what if the neophytes think the manager is the one who is supposed to run things?

I wish I had something to offer. You do not deserve this.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/01/2022 5:36 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 4:07 PM
I am concerned because the PM is God right now, because the Developer is disengaged and has allowed them to run the show, as just one vote. I am powerless. And the PM absolutely does not want me on the board because they know I intend to fire them.
...
[snippage]
So I am curious if this insecure methodology is so typical with HOA’s as to make it difficult for me to wage a successful pressure campaign against the PM.
For the bad guys to have the power and so either throw the election or use devious means is not unusual.

Other owners and you pay your hard-earned money to this manager. For the manager to take steps that may be ensuring you do not get on the board, and all so the (corrupt) manager is not fired, is painful. Toss in two years of hard work by you to get this HOA off on the correct foot and then some. It may very well be for nothing if a bunch of neophytes are elected and they do not go first to the governing documents to determine their every move in the next 12 months. Worse, what if the neophytes think the manager is the one who is supposed to run things?

I wish I had something to offer. You do not deserve this.

In fairness, it’s mainly my paranoia at play here. It could be simple incompetence or laziness on their part, and nothing nefarious, at all. I just don’t like the fact that they are ignoring guidelines and viewing ballots as they come in.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
This is the "book" the OP was talking about.

https://attorneygeneral.delaware.gov/fraud/cpu/ombudsperson/fair-election-process/
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 7:33 PM
... snip ...

In fairness, it’s mainly my paranoia at play here. It could be simple incompetence or laziness on their part, and nothing nefarious, at all. I just don’t like the fact that they are ignoring guidelines and viewing ballots as they come in.

I think it's more likely that the developer and PM have been doing this for years - it's their jobs, after all - they have their procedures down pat, and here comes this know-it-all homeowner telling them that they're doing it all wrong.

That's a hard message to sell, no matter how right you may be.

Having been through this a number of times - I've spent nearly 15 years on condo boards, been through 2 developer transitions, and I work for a developer/home builder - I'd be giving a bunch of side eye to a homeowner who comes in and decides that the PM needs to be replaced. My first reaction is "sez who?" Again, you may be right, but you have to establish some credibility before I'd be willing to hop on the bandwagon.

You have no idea how many clueless homeowners I've come across who think they know better than the pro's how things should work. (They're nearly always wrong, and they cause much unnecessary turmoil in their communities.)
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/02/2022 5:35 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 7:33 PM
... snip ...

In fairness, it’s mainly my paranoia at play here. It could be simple incompetence or laziness on their part, and nothing nefarious, at all. I just don’t like the fact that they are ignoring guidelines and viewing ballots as they come in.


I think it's more likely that the developer and PM have been doing this for years - it's their jobs, after all - they have their procedures down pat, and here comes this know-it-all homeowner telling them that they're doing it all wrong.

That's a hard message to sell, no matter how right you may be.

Having been through this a number of times - I've spent nearly 15 years on condo boards, been through 2 developer transitions, and I work for a developer/home builder - I'd be giving a bunch of side eye to a homeowner who comes in and decides that the PM needs to be replaced. My first reaction is "sez who?" Again, you may be right, but you have to establish some credibility before I'd be willing to hop on the bandwagon.

You have no idea how many clueless homeowners I've come across who think they know better than the pro's how things should work. (They're nearly always wrong, and they cause much unnecessary turmoil in their communities.)

Well, that’s a bit insulting. I have been on the board for two years, and have years of prior experience working with various non-profit and volunteer organizations and know the difference between a competent company and an incompetent one. Consider:

* Their turnover rate for the person assigned to our account has averaged two per year over the last four years

* they underbilled the developer for empty lots by over $50,000 over those four years. This currently in negotiations.

* They paid thousands of dollars of invoices that had been sent to the developer for expenses that were not the HOA’s. I found these errors and had them corrected.

* Expensed thousand of dollars against the 55+ portion of the community for expenses that were supposed to come out of the general fund. I found these errors and had them corrected.

* They insisted for months that when we reached our 75% benchmark the only change was that residents got one more seat at the board. I had to push relentlessly before they admitted that the 75% benchmark meant the residents gained full control of the board.

These are the highlights. The list is much longer. And now they are completely ignoring the attorney general guidelines for running an election. So I don’t particularly care if they are offended that a resident (who is a board member) has suggested they should follow best practices instead of what they have been doing.

And, btw, last year I formed an informal panel of 15 people, all of whom were active committee members, to analyze our PM contract and interview other companies. The unanimous decision was to ask our developer to not renew the PM’s contract. So this isn’t one guy waltzing in with no clue.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
As I said, you may be right about the PM. But you apparently haven't learned the fine art of framing unpalatable messages. Instead you've declared yourself an adversary right off the bat, and at a time when you're in no position to change things. Read Sun Tzu and the Art of War.

FWIW, we ended up replacing the PM who was put in place by our developer. But it was after 5 years of homeowner control, we had experienced board members, the PM was given ample opportunity to improve their performance, and we moved to a new PM that was beating the pants off the competition through sheer competence. This new PM was already highly recommended by many other associations in the area, and we knew that we wanted to move to them before we even started the formal process of replacing the current PM (which took about a year in total). We changed PM's because the new one was demonstrably better, not because we were ticked off at the old one.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/02/2022 6:21 AM
As I said, you may be right about the PM. But you apparently haven't learned the fine art of framing unpalatable messages. Instead you've declared yourself an adversary right off the bat, and at a time when you're in no position to change things. Read Sun Tzu and the Art of War.

FWIW, we ended up replacing the PM who was put in place by our developer. But it was after 5 years of homeowner control, we had experienced board members, the PM was given ample opportunity to improve their performance, and we moved to a new PM that was beating the pants off the competition through sheer competence. This new PM was already highly recommended by many other associations in the area, and we knew that we wanted to move to them before we even started the formal process of replacing the current PM (which took about a year in total). We changed PM's because the new one was demonstrably better, not because we were ticked off at the old one.

You do realize there is a difference between how I explain the situation here than how I approach matters IRL, don’t you? I always was diplomatic, but after the meeting with the developer in which I made the case for not renewing the contract, the PM viewed me as the enemy and has treated me that way ever since. And why do you say this is ā€œright off the batā€ as if I just stepped into this? I told you I’ve been on the board for two years. It was about six months ago, when the contract was up for renewal, that things got ugly. Sure, I was pretty damn firm when they were misappropriating thousands of dollars. But politely asking them to correct those issues didn’t always work. I did, however, always leave room to maintain a professional relationship.

I listed the egregious mistakes they made, so hopefully you could see this was not a personality conflict, this is a case of serious incompetence.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/02/2022 6:05 AM
... snip ...

And, btw, last year I formed an informal panel of 15 people, all of whom were active committee members, to analyze our PM contract and interview other companies. The unanimous decision was to ask our developer to not renew the PM’s contract. So this isn’t one guy waltzing in with no clue.


I'm not surprised they want you off the board.

You are only one board member and have no authority to interview other companies unless the entire board (ie, the developer) voted to approve this action. I assume that did not happen.

Board members have a "duty of loyalty", among other things. In short, if a board member thinks the rest of his colleagues are bad actors, then the proper thing to do is to resign so that he/she can act openly against them. Remaining on the board and undermining it is considered unethical.

Committee members have no separate authority whatsoever and need to stay in their lanes. They report to the board and can be removed with or without cause.

So you were all out of line, but you most of all by virtue of being a board member. Homeowners can do pretty much whatever they want as long as they don't misrepresent themselves (as speaking for the HOA, for instance). Board members do not have that luxury.

I predict that your community has interesting times ahead.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/02/2022 7:45 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 04/02/2022 6:05 AM
... snip ...

And, btw, last year I formed an informal panel of 15 people, all of whom were active committee members, to analyze our PM contract and interview other companies. The unanimous decision was to ask our developer to not renew the PM’s contract. So this isn’t one guy waltzing in with no clue.



I'm not surprised they want you off the board.

You are only one board member and have no authority to interview other companies unless the entire board (ie, the developer) voted to approve this action. I assume that did not happen.

Board members have a "duty of loyalty", among other things. In short, if a board member thinks the rest of his colleagues are bad actors, then the proper thing to do is to resign so that he/she can act openly against them. Remaining on the board and undermining it is considered unethical.

Committee members have no separate authority whatsoever and need to stay in their lanes. They report to the board and can be removed with or without cause.

So you were all out of line, but you most of all by virtue of being a board member. Homeowners can do pretty much whatever they want as long as they don't misrepresent themselves (as speaking for the HOA, for instance). Board members do not have that luxury.

I predict that your community has interesting times ahead.

Under ordinary circumstance I would appreciate that opinion. But under declarant control, with a developer who is disengaged and a property manger mismanaging our money by the tens of thousands of dollars, I felt a stronger fiduciary duty to the other residents than anything else. Make no mistake - they don't want me off the board for any ethical concerns. They want me off the board because they don't want to lose the contract.

I predict the future to be a return to normalcy.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
If that many people were involved in looking for a new PM, then a lot of people want her gone. Who are these other candidates? What do they want? If your concern is for the health of the association, perhaps the best thing to do would be to talk to the other candidates so a change is made regardless of who wins.

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