Solar Installation & HOA restrictions?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Looking for thoughts on this. Like most states, mine has passed law barring HOA's from restricting solar.

https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title55/t55ch1/sect55-115/
- cannot restrict solar panels on rooftop, however,
- HOA can determine specific location on roof, as long as installation permitted to orient to the south
- HOA may adopt reasonable rules consistent w/ building codes or that panels be parallel to roof line, painting of structure to coordinate with roof color

Our HOA has tried to 'adapt' to the State Law, but still has tight requirement for solar.
- says that solar only allowed after approval of the ACC
- says that homeowner shall consider the impact on neighbors
- says that all framing and structural shall be painted black (even if your roof is a different color)
- says that panels shall not be on the front of the home's roof (even if it faces south)
- says that the panels cannot produce glare
- says that the panels must be installed professionally; homeowners cannot install themselves.

So my questions are: I understand the intention of the ACC requirements, but it seems to completely be not valid at all.
First, State Law says that the HOA cannot restrict.....yet the HOA says that you can't install unless you submit an ACC application. This reminds me of FCC and antennas...
Second, the HOA has a lot of restrictions (color, glare, location) that are not authorized by State Law.
Third, the HOA requires professional installation. State Law again says "shall not restrict" and if a competent homeowner could install a system to code, it seems the HOA cannot require professional.

Your input?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Solar panels can be orientated south via brackets. They don't have to be mounted on the south facing slope of the roof.

Granted, the benefits would be less, but if an HOA really doesn't want them, this is a way to make it less attractive to the owners.

There are non-glare solar panels. They are typically more expensive.
I suspect nobody wants a glare from their neighbors roof shining into their home.

If you are on the board, my suggestion would be to have those guidelines reviewed by an attorney for conflicts with State law.

I further suspect that over time the solar panel issue will be resolved just like the satellite dish issue was.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

State legislature bodies give some latitude to HOA to regulate the placement location of PV panels with the caveat that placement cannot impede the homeowners generation of Solar energy.

So if the only viable option to to put the PV panes on the front roof portion of the house, the HOA cannot say no.

Many of the nationally known solar companies have computer software they can print off and attach a survey to the homeowners ARC application to explain the PV panel location necessity.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Is there any case law in your state on HOA restrictions of solar panels? If not, then your HOA can pretty much propose what they want and wait until they get sued to find out if your rules conflict with the statute.

I would suggest getting an experienced HOA attorney to review the rules to see if there are any rules that are major conflicts with the statutes.

In my opinion as a board member who has dealt with several solar panel issues, I don't think any of the rules are outlandish.

One suggestion on the contractor vs homeowner installation. Most of the time the HOA is really looking to make sure the panels are installed correctly and that a building permit has been pulled. I'm sure you could get an HOA approval if you can document 1) installation instructions or a plan that is to be followed and 2) a building permit has been pulled.

If I had a homeowner who was doing self-installation here in Florida, I would want to make sure that the panels were installed well enough that they didn't fly off in a hurricane and damage other houses.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LoriM15 on 03/31/2022 11:40 AM
Is there any case law in your state on HOA restrictions of solar panels? If not, then your HOA can pretty much propose what they want and wait until they get sued to find out if your rules conflict with the statute.

I would suggest getting an experienced HOA attorney to review the rules to see if there are any rules that are major conflicts with the statutes.

In my opinion as a board member who has dealt with several solar panel issues, I don't think any of the rules are outlandish.

One suggestion on the contractor vs homeowner installation. Most of the time the HOA is really looking to make sure the panels are installed correctly and that a building permit has been pulled. I'm sure you could get an HOA approval if you can document 1) installation instructions or a plan that is to be followed and 2) a building permit has been pulled.

If I had a homeowner who was doing self-installation here in Florida, I would want to make sure that the panels were installed well enough that they didn't fly off in a hurricane and damage other houses.

If it's a condo I would not even consider allowing a homeowner to install solar panels on a roof that the HOA was responsible for unless both the insurance company and the HOA lawyer approved it in advance. Even if they did what happens if the owner screws up and his negligence causes roof damage?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

My state just passed a similar bill. Basically, an owner can petition his/her neighbors to permit solar panels and the board can establish rules regarding their placement. It can amendment the installation under certain circumstances. I haven't read it in detail, as our lots are association property.

If you'd like to see what it says, Google indiana house bill 1196. (Maybe Augustin will do this for you, since he's quite good at deciphering state law).

From what you've written, I think some of it is part of our new law, as the legislature said it wanted to balance homeowner rights with the power of the HOA to make and enforce rules designed to benefit the entire community. You may think it's overkill, but you did move into an hOW and agree to comply with the CCRs and community rules. In other words, you have to learn to share space with your neighbors and try to be cooperative.

If you think these rules are a bit much, go to a board meeting (maybe several) and say so. Better yet, offer to research the matter - see what other communities have done to get some ideas on what could be adapted in your community A-Rod 6u may find somebody those ☝s .edu good sense. Talk to a few solar companies - they may be able to help you educate your neighbors. Have fun!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LoriM15 on 03/31/2022 11:40 AM
then your HOA can pretty much propose what they want and wait until they get sued to find out if your rules conflict with the statute.

Regardless of whatever topic we are discussing, this is absolutely terrible advice. Just do whatever you want and wait to get sued? are you kidding me?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 1:32 PM

Posted By LoriM15 on 03/31/2022 11:40 AM
then your HOA can pretty much propose what they want and wait until they get sued to find out if your rules conflict with the statute.

Regardless of whatever topic we are discussing, this is absolutely terrible advice. Just do whatever you want and wait to get sued? are you kidding me?

I'm not sure it was advice.

I think it was simply a statement of fact.

Realistically, a board can do what they want until someone notices and takes action.
This is why it's important to elect those who will put in the time and do the best job they can.

Unfortunately, most members elect anyone who volunteers as this keeps them from having to be involved.

Most members, I believe, will be happy paying their assessments and turn a blind eye to everything until a boards decisions affects them directly.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

No it's not terrible advice. You skipped the part where I said "if there isn't any case law" and also maybe I didn't give enough detail.

Obviously that advice is not going to apply to something that clearly violates a federal law or a state law or statute. But in the case of solar panels (and a few other things) where the statutes are newer and not very clear, it's advice that works.

We have a similar solar panel statute in Florida. But there is no case law on the HOAs application of the statute in Florida. We have a rule in our community that there are no solar panels on the front of the houses. We're reasonable about other locations. But until we get sued, that rule is going to stay in place. We don't want to get sued and it's a calculated risk we are taking but the look of the community is something we don't want to compromise.

We have run this by our association attorney who says the rules we have are our "interpretation" of the statute and that we can enforce it until someone tells us otherwise.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 11:08 AM
Looking for thoughts on this. Like most states, mine has passed law barring HOA's from restricting solar.

https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title55/t55ch1/sect55-115/
- cannot restrict solar panels on rooftop, however,
- HOA can determine specific location on roof, as long as installation permitted to orient to the south
- HOA may adopt reasonable rules consistent w/ building codes or that panels be parallel to roof line, painting of structure to coordinate with roof color

Our HOA has tried to 'adapt' to the State Law, but still has tight requirement for solar.
- says that solar only allowed after approval of the ACC
- says that homeowner shall consider the impact on neighbors
- says that all framing and structural shall be painted black (even if your roof is a different color)
- says that panels shall not be on the front of the home's roof (even if it faces south)
- says that the panels cannot produce glare

So my questions are: I understand the intention of the ACC requirements, but it seems to completely be not valid at all.
First, State Law says that the HOA cannot restrict.....yet the HOA says that you can't install unless you submit an ACC application. This reminds me of FCC and antennas...
Second, the HOA has a lot of restrictions (color, glare, location) that are not authorized by State Law.
Third, the HOA requires professional installation. State Law again says "shall not restrict" and if a competent homeowner could install a system to code, it seems the HOA cannot require professional.

Your input?

One thing that is missing; they should forbid installing solar panels on the ground, and limit them to the roof installation.

- says that solar only allowed after approval of the ACC
That is consistent with state law. It is not a restriction, but rather a procedure they must follow.

- says that homeowner shall consider the impact on neighbors
That is consistent with state law, but somewhat meaningless as is any rule that is vague in its meaning.

- says that all framing and structural shall be painted black (even if your roof is a different color)
That is consistent with state law. Although I think "always black" is not a great idea. But anything else would get complicated, so I understand it.

- says that panels shall not be on the front of the home's roof (even if it faces south)
Nope, they cannot refuse to allow it to be installed in whatever is the most appropriate location. The rules could say "if possible without diminishing effectiveness, they shall not be on the front of the home's roof." That would leave the rule there in case technology changes.

- says that the panels cannot produce glare
I would bet that would be considered consistent with state law. It certainly is a rule I would advocate.

- says that the panels must be installed professionally; homeowners cannot install themselves.
I have always been advised that "professional installation" is not a good rule. More important is that the installer - even if it is the homeowner - can provide proof of adequate insurance. There might also be licensing requirements in your state that the HOA can include in their rules.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LoriM15 on 03/31/2022 2:05 PM
No it's not terrible advice. You skipped the part where I said "if there isn't any case law" and also maybe I didn't give enough detail.

Obviously that advice is not going to apply to something that clearly violates a federal law or a state law or statute. But in the case of solar panels (and a few other things) where the statutes are newer and not very clear, it's advice that works.

We have a similar solar panel statute in Florida. But there is no case law on the HOAs application of the statute in Florida. We have a rule in our community that there are no solar panels on the front of the houses. We're reasonable about other locations. But until we get sued, that rule is going to stay in place. We don't want to get sued and it's a calculated risk we are taking but the look of the community is something we don't want to compromise.

We have run this by our association attorney who says the rules we have are our "interpretation" of the statute and that we can enforce it until someone tells us otherwise.

Just because a statute is new doesn't mean its not clear. What is not clear about Florida's laws to you?

Florida's is basically the same as Idaho's.

https://wisepropertymanagement.com/can-florida-hoas-restrict-solar-panels/

From my reading, and most others including the PMC firm here, you really are putting yourself in a dangerous spot, Lori. If the front of the house is south facing and the best spot for solar, you are begging for a lawsuit by trying to tell your members that its not allowed.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 11:08 AM
I understand the intention of the ACC requirements, but it seems to completely be not valid at all.
First, State Law says that the HOA cannot restrict.....

The text of the relevant Idaho statute is clear to me that it does not say what you seem to think it says. From Idaho Statute 55-115 (4):

No homeowner’s association may add, amend, or enforce any covenant, condition, or restriction in such a way that prohibits the installation of solar panels or solar collectors on the rooftop of any property or structure thereon within the jurisdiction of the homeowner’s association; provided however, that a homeowner’s association may determine the specific location where solar panels or solar collectors may be installed on the roof as long as installation is permitted within an orientation to the south or within forty-five (45) degrees east or west of due south. A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels or solar collectors consistent with an applicable building code or to require that panels or collectors be parallel to a roof line, conform to the slope of the roof, and that any frame, support bracket, or visible piping or wiring be painted to coordinate with the roofing material. The provisions of this subsection shall apply only to rooftops that are owned, controlled, and maintained by the homeowner.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the phrase "provided however"?

My sound bite version of the statute section is:

A HOA may not outright prohibit solar panels. The HOA may regulate certain aspects of the installation of the solar panels. (Obviously said regulation may not include a flat-out prohibition of the panels.)

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Thanks Augie, I was just going to ask Adam if "restrict" is the actual word or is it instead "prohibit." He wrote the HOA "cannot restrict solar panels on rooftop, however..." The wording seemed so awkward that I figured he was misciting the statute.

Because his HOA does have paint and other limitations on placement, etc., just like any addition to a home, the ACC should be involved. I assume the roof are owned by owners, not the HOA.

We're a high rise but have about 11 2-3 story TH-style units around the perimeter. Their roofs save them and are common area, as they also serve structures under these units, e.g., commercial suites or underground parking garage.

No Owners have wanted to install solar yet but CA also says we cannot prohibit them. There are plenty of restrictions for these common area roofs. If any interest, visit Dad-stirling.com, Menu, Solar for the legal firm's opinion, etc. on solar.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/31/2022 7:30 PM
Thanks Augie, I was just going to ask Adam if "restrict" is the actual word or is it instead "prohibit." He wrote the HOA "cannot restrict solar panels on rooftop, however..." The wording seemed so awkward that I figured he was misciting the statute.

Because his HOA does have paint and other limitations on placement, etc., just like any addition to a home, the ACC should be involved. I assume the roof are owned by owners, not the HOA.

We're a high rise but have about 11 2-3 story TH-style units around the perimeter. Their roofs save them and are common area, as they also serve structures under these units, e.g., commercial suites or underground parking garage.

No Owners have wanted to install solar yet but CA also says we cannot prohibit them. There are plenty of restrictions for these common area roofs. If any interest, visit Dad-stirling.com, Menu, Solar for the legal firm's opinion, etc. on solar.

Correct, the state law (cited in OP) says that no HOA may make rules/ccr's in such a way that prohibits the install of solar panels on a homeowners roof, except for 4 restrictions: 1: general placement as long as it doesn't interfere with south facing, 2: require it meets building codes, 3: be parallel to roof slope, and 4: color of structure be painted to match the roof.

So, state law is quite clear. no HOA may prohibit...semantically the same as cannot restrict...tomAto tomahto.

An HOA policy that says that any solar install must first pass the approval of an ACC is potentially restricting...especially if the ACC rules have a bunch of extra requirements not expressly permitted by state law. Since posting the OP, i also cited another link to an HOA PMC law firm that advised that HOA's really have no authority to restrict solar installs...

So I guess can you help me understand what you are relying on to support saying that an HOA ACC can restrict and 'grant permission' to a solar install, given the state law that says otherwise.

Yes, the HOA can have CCR's/rules about the 4 items in the state law, but that's the same as having CCR's about X,Y,Z....as long as you don't violate the CCR's, there's no 'permission' needed.
There's significant case law and precedence about installing antennas and satellite dishes...Federal law says the HOA can not prohibit....you don't need to submit an ACC request to put a UHD antenna on your home.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 8:42 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/31/2022 7:30 PM
Thanks Augie, I was just going to ask Adam if "restrict" is the actual word or is it instead "prohibit." He wrote the HOA "cannot restrict solar panels on rooftop, however..." The wording seemed so awkward that I figured he was misciting the statute.

Because his HOA does have paint and other limitations on placement, etc., just like any addition to a home, the ACC should be involved. I assume the roof are owned by owners, not the HOA.

We're a high rise but have about 11 2-3 story TH-style units around the perimeter. Their roofs save them and are common area, as they also serve structures under these units, e.g., commercial suites or underground parking garage.

No Owners have wanted to install solar yet but CA also says we cannot prohibit them. There are plenty of restrictions for these common area roofs. If any interest, visit Dad-stirling.com, Menu, Solar for the legal firm's opinion, etc. on solar.

Correct, the state law (cited in OP) says that no HOA may make rules/ccr's in such a way that prohibits the install of solar panels on a homeowners roof, except for 4 restrictions: 1: general placement as long as it doesn't interfere with south facing, 2: require it meets building codes, 3: be parallel to roof slope, and 4: color of structure be painted to match the roof.

So, state law is quite clear. no HOA may prohibit...semantically the same as cannot restrict...tomAto tomahto.

An HOA policy that says that any solar install must first pass the approval of an ACC is potentially restricting...especially if the ACC rules have a bunch of extra requirements not expressly permitted by state law. Since posting the OP, i also cited another link to an HOA PMC law firm that advised that HOA's really have no authority to restrict solar installs...

So I guess can you help me understand what you are relying on to support saying that an HOA ACC can restrict and 'grant permission' to a solar install, given the state law that says otherwise.

Yes, the HOA can have CCR's/rules about the 4 items in the state law, but that's the same as having CCR's about X,Y,Z....as long as you don't violate the CCR's, there's no 'permission' needed.
There's significant case law and precedence about installing antennas and satellite dishes...Federal law says the HOA can not prohibit....you don't need to submit an ACC request to put a UHD antenna on your home.

Why ask for everyone’s thoughts if you are simply going to argue against anything that differs from your initial opinion?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 8:42 PM

So, state law is quite clear. no HOA may prohibit...semantically the same as cannot restrict...tomAto tomahto.

In HOA/COA law in particular, no the two words are not the same.

Just looking up the two words in a dictionary will show the difference.

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 8:42 PM

Yes, the HOA can have CCR's/rules about the 4 items in the state law, but that's the same as having CCR's about X,Y,Z....as long as you don't violate the CCR's, there's no 'permission' needed.
There's significant case law and precedence about installing antennas and satellite dishes...Federal law says the HOA can not prohibit....you don't need to submit an ACC request to put a UHD antenna on your home.

I do not think this is what either the federal stature or case law say.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/01/2022 6:11 AM

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 8:42 PM

So, state law is quite clear. no HOA may prohibit...semantically the same as cannot restrict...tomAto tomahto.

In HOA/COA law in particular, no the two words are not the same.

Just looking up the two words in a dictionary will show the difference.

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 03/31/2022 8:42 PM

Yes, the HOA can have CCR's/rules about the 4 items in the state law, but that's the same as having CCR's about X,Y,Z....as long as you don't violate the CCR's, there's no 'permission' needed.
There's significant case law and precedence about installing antennas and satellite dishes...Federal law says the HOA can not prohibit....you don't need to submit an ACC request to put a UHD antenna on your home.

I do not think this is what either the federal stature or case law say.

FCC 03-2971 Memorandum and Order, September 2003 (specifically addressing a certain HOA's procedures)
A prior approval requirement constitutes an unreasonable delay and is therefore impermissible unless it is necessary for bona fide safety or historic preservation considerations.

FCC 03-210 Memorandum and Order, August 2003 (specifically addressing another HOA's procedures)
Under [the FCC's] rule, a prior approval requirement will only be enforceable if it is necessary to accomplish a legitimate safety or historic preservation objective and is no more burdensome than necessary to accomplish that objective.

In both of these FCC decisions, the ever un-helpful Community Associations Institute (CAI) entered the fray. The CAI fought for HOAs having the right to restrict antennae. The CAI was unsuccessful. E.g.:

CAI challenges the [FCC subagency’s] finding, stating that it has effectively converted a prohibition on unreasonable delay or expense to a prohibition on any delay or expense.

The FCC told CAI to go fly a kite. The restrictions of the HOAs in question did not pertain to safety or historic preservation, so the FCC said the HOA's restrictions, including pre-approval, were not allowed.
https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/311142/view/topic/Default.aspx
https://www.hoatalk.com/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/199314465371.pdf
https://www.hoatalk.com/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/199314474654.pdf

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 3:36 AM

Why ask for everyone’s thoughts if you are simply going to argue against anything that differs from your initial opinion?

I'm asking for reasons why and what support for some people here thinking that the HOA can conflict with state law. We talk about this often here, the order of operations and hierarchy....

I'm reading the law as a matter of fact...and then comparing to what my HOA is declaring. and they don't jive.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

this solar thing reads nearly identical to FCC antenna laws.

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/installing-consumer-owned-antennas-and-satellite-dishes

What kinds of restrictions are prohibited?
Restrictions that prevent or delay installation, maintenance or use of antennas covered by the rule are prohibited. For example, in most cases, requirements to get approval before installing an antenna are prohibited.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 8:03 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 3:36 AM

Why ask for everyone’s thoughts if you are simply going to argue against anything that differs from your initial opinion?

I'm asking for reasons why and what support for some people here thinking that the HOA can conflict with state law. We talk about this often here, the order of operations and hierarchy....

I'm reading the law as a matter of fact...and then comparing to what my HOA is declaring. and they don't jive.

No, you are starting with a premise that the HOA conflicts with state law. We are telling you your premise is wrong. For starters, an HOA absolutely can require approval of solar panels, and to enforce certain guidelines for those panels. This is not the same as prohibiting installation. It simply is not. As Sterling-Davis notes, in one of the most solar-friendly states in the country:

"...the system must receive the association's approval (which cannot be unreasonably withheld)"

So an HOA can provide guidelines and restrictions, just not unreasonable ones.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 8:15 AM

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 8:03 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 3:36 AM

Why ask for everyone’s thoughts if you are simply going to argue against anything that differs from your initial opinion?

I'm asking for reasons why and what support for some people here thinking that the HOA can conflict with state law. We talk about this often here, the order of operations and hierarchy....

I'm reading the law as a matter of fact...and then comparing to what my HOA is declaring. and they don't jive.

No, you are starting with a premise that the HOA conflicts with state law. We are telling you your premise is wrong. For starters, an HOA absolutely can require approval of solar panels, and to enforce certain guidelines for those panels. This is not the same as prohibiting installation. It simply is not. As Sterling-Davis notes, in one of the most solar-friendly states in the country:

"...the system must receive the association's approval (which cannot be unreasonably withheld)"

So an HOA can provide guidelines and restrictions, just not unreasonable ones.

Thank you for your comments. Can you please check your source? You referenced a section specifically about common area roofs, not individual home owners' roofs. Every other source about CA Solar Law says that HOA's cannot require prior approval on individual homes. Yes, there can be a few reasonable restrictions, but that is just the same as any other part of the CCR's, and don't need approval.

I'm starting with a premise of Reading the State Law and the Reading the HOA rules and immediately identifying conflicts. Then I am relying on case law and precedence to guide my opinion that ACC approvals are prohibited.

Can you help me understand and what sources you're using to say that HOA's can require approval and enforce restrictions when the state law says otherwise?

There's several relevant cases in CA but those deal with an installation that violated the CCR's and were within the reasonable restrictions allowed by state law. There's a case in Arizona that ruled that an ACC prior approval was deemed "effectively prohibited". Additionally, parallels to Federal law is clear and explicit that requirements to get approvals are prohibited.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 8:55 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 8:15 AM

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 8:03 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 3:36 AM

Why ask for everyone’s thoughts if you are simply going to argue against anything that differs from your initial opinion?

I'm asking for reasons why and what support for some people here thinking that the HOA can conflict with state law. We talk about this often here, the order of operations and hierarchy....

I'm reading the law as a matter of fact...and then comparing to what my HOA is declaring. and they don't jive.

No, you are starting with a premise that the HOA conflicts with state law. We are telling you your premise is wrong. For starters, an HOA absolutely can require approval of solar panels, and to enforce certain guidelines for those panels. This is not the same as prohibiting installation. It simply is not. As Sterling-Davis notes, in one of the most solar-friendly states in the country:

"...the system must receive the association's approval (which cannot be unreasonably withheld)"

So an HOA can provide guidelines and restrictions, just not unreasonable ones.

Thank you for your comments. Can you please check your source? You referenced a section specifically about common area roofs, not individual home owners' roofs. Every other source about CA Solar Law says that HOA's cannot require prior approval on individual homes. Yes, there can be a few reasonable restrictions, but that is just the same as any other part of the CCR's, and don't need approval.

I'm starting with a premise of Reading the State Law and the Reading the HOA rules and immediately identifying conflicts. Then I am relying on case law and precedence to guide my opinion that ACC approvals are prohibited.

Can you help me understand and what sources you're using to say that HOA's can require approval and enforce restrictions when the state law says otherwise?

There's several relevant cases in CA but those deal with an installation that violated the CCR's and were within the reasonable restrictions allowed by state law. There's a case in Arizona that ruled that an ACC prior approval was deemed "effectively prohibited". Additionally, parallels to Federal law is clear and explicit that requirements to get approvals are prohibited.

I'm reading the Idaho law that you linked. HOA's have the right to require approval for anything you do that affects the appearance of your home. You do agree with that, right? Your law does not say they cannot require approval for solar panels. Ergo, they can require approval. In fact, that the statute specifically allows for various regulations to be enforced means approval is a necessity, because prior to installation you must demonstrate - as with any other modification - that you will be following the rules.

I'm curious where you've seen anything that says an HOA cannot require prior approval. Because it does not say or suggest it in the law you linked.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 9:10 AM

I'm reading the Idaho law that you linked. HOA's have the right to require approval for anything you do that affects the appearance of your home. You do agree with that, right? Your law does not say they cannot require approval for solar panels. Ergo, they can require approval. In fact, that the statute specifically allows for various regulations to be enforced means approval is a necessity, because prior to installation you must demonstrate - as with any other modification - that you will be following the rules.

I'm curious where you've seen anything that says an HOA cannot require prior approval. Because it does not say or suggest it in the law you linked.

Absolutely not. HOA's only have the right to require approval to the list of things covered in the CCR's and (usually) the ACC charter/jurisdiction. Your feelings or beliefs does not equate to adding any equitable servitude that is not enumerated in the governing documents.

For example, planting daffodils near my door affects the appearance of my home but does not meet the jurisdiction of an ACC request. Your HOA might require small plantings to submit an ACC request. It all depends on what's in your governing documents.

In this situation, the state law is clear and explicit about HOA's cannot restrict and/or prohibit the install (except for a few specific reasons). This is analogous to many other state laws as well as the federal FCC laws. Numerous analogous case laws and precedence have ruled that ACC Approval requirements do in fact restrict and/or prohibit.

So I guess I'm asking for what sources or cases one might use to support the opinion that ACC can require approval.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Sorry, I should highlight that this is with respect to SFH home owner's personal roofs. Not a condo, not a town home, not a shared community roof.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

If you don't think what your Board is requiring, why not ASK THEM why they've made these revisions - I assume you've come up with some reasons why you think some or all of them are unreasonable? If not, why not?

You are in a HOA and this isn't a free for all - if your documents state certain exterior changes have to be approved by the Board, it sounds like they're trying to come up with some guidelines. Intead you seem to be balking at having to go through the board at all, ignoring that state law on stuff like solar panels are evolving, just as the regulations regarding satellite dishes had to evolve? What's your real problem?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 9:22 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 9:10 AM

I'm reading the Idaho law that you linked. HOA's have the right to require approval for anything you do that affects the appearance of your home. You do agree with that, right? Your law does not say they cannot require approval for solar panels. Ergo, they can require approval. In fact, that the statute specifically allows for various regulations to be enforced means approval is a necessity, because prior to installation you must demonstrate - as with any other modification - that you will be following the rules.

I'm curious where you've seen anything that says an HOA cannot require prior approval. Because it does not say or suggest it in the law you linked.

Absolutely not. HOA's only have the right to require approval to the list of things covered in the CCR's and (usually) the ACC charter/jurisdiction. Your feelings or beliefs does not equate to adding any equitable servitude that is not enumerated in the governing documents.

For example, planting daffodils near my door affects the appearance of my home but does not meet the jurisdiction of an ACC request. Your HOA might require small plantings to submit an ACC request. It all depends on what's in your governing documents.

In this situation, the state law is clear and explicit about HOA's cannot restrict and/or prohibit the install (except for a few specific reasons). This is analogous to many other state laws as well as the federal FCC laws. Numerous analogous case laws and precedence have ruled that ACC Approval requirements do in fact restrict and/or prohibit.

So I guess I'm asking for what sources or cases one might use to support the opinion that ACC can require approval.

Okay, so you are operating from an understanding that your CCR's do not allow the HOA to require permission for solar panels.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 9:52 AM

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 9:22 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 9:10 AM

I'm reading the Idaho law that you linked. HOA's have the right to require approval for anything you do that affects the appearance of your home. You do agree with that, right? Your law does not say they cannot require approval for solar panels. Ergo, they can require approval. In fact, that the statute specifically allows for various regulations to be enforced means approval is a necessity, because prior to installation you must demonstrate - as with any other modification - that you will be following the rules.

I'm curious where you've seen anything that says an HOA cannot require prior approval. Because it does not say or suggest it in the law you linked.

Absolutely not. HOA's only have the right to require approval to the list of things covered in the CCR's and (usually) the ACC charter/jurisdiction. Your feelings or beliefs does not equate to adding any equitable servitude that is not enumerated in the governing documents.

For example, planting daffodils near my door affects the appearance of my home but does not meet the jurisdiction of an ACC request. Your HOA might require small plantings to submit an ACC request. It all depends on what's in your governing documents.

In this situation, the state law is clear and explicit about HOA's cannot restrict and/or prohibit the install (except for a few specific reasons). This is analogous to many other state laws as well as the federal FCC laws. Numerous analogous case laws and precedence have ruled that ACC Approval requirements do in fact restrict and/or prohibit.

So I guess I'm asking for what sources or cases one might use to support the opinion that ACC can require approval.

Okay, so you are operating from an understanding that your CCR's do not allow the HOA to require permission for solar panels.

No, that is an incorrect assessment. I am operating from an understanding that State Law trumps HOA CCR's and State Law says X, Y, Z, which conflicts with the CCR's and that understanding is supported by numerous case law and court rulings.

Originally, the CCR's did have the authority and jurisdiction over solar panels as well as require ACC submission, but laws changed, and it is no longer valid. This isn't a new concept.

to go to an extreme analog, many HOA's used to require permission to fly a flag or political sign. Many states have passed laws that say exactly the same "may not prohibit, restrict, blah blah blah."

Would you agree that someone needs to submit an ACC request to fly the American flag or post a sign for "Elect candidate" ? Yes or no?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I agree with Augustin and David. Adam is trying to play word games and some of us can see that. Solar systems are far larger & more visible than the antennas he tried to use as a comparison. Restrict & prohibit are NOT defined the same way. To oh-so-cleverly suggest it's like to-may-to to-mah-to--pronunciation--is inane.

Associations have Rules & Regulations and many have Architectural Guidelines. Rules about the installation, paint color, location, etc. most likely would be in one of these documents, not in the CC&RS, just as front door paint color would be in those documents.

From davis-stirling.com, CA Civ 714 refers to all roofs no matter who owns them, i.e.,separate interest roofs are included in this code. 714 (d) (1): “Whenever approval is required for the installation or use of a solar energy system, the application for approval shall be processed and approved by the appropriate approving entity in the same manner as an application for approval of an architectural modification to the property, and shall not be willfully avoided or delayed.” ARCs are definitely allowed to approve certain elements.

So David is correct and Adam, well, isn't.

Returning to Idaho and again as Augustin points out, the legislations clearly states: "A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels..." So whether or not the CC&Rs refer to rules concerning the exterior appearance of detached homes, this legislation out solar applies to his HOA.

Curious to know, Adam, why you are so concerned about this topic.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 10:00 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 9:52 AM

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 9:22 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 9:10 AM

I'm reading the Idaho law that you linked. HOA's have the right to require approval for anything you do that affects the appearance of your home. You do agree with that, right? Your law does not say they cannot require approval for solar panels. Ergo, they can require approval. In fact, that the statute specifically allows for various regulations to be enforced means approval is a necessity, because prior to installation you must demonstrate - as with any other modification - that you will be following the rules.

I'm curious where you've seen anything that says an HOA cannot require prior approval. Because it does not say or suggest it in the law you linked.

Absolutely not. HOA's only have the right to require approval to the list of things covered in the CCR's and (usually) the ACC charter/jurisdiction. Your feelings or beliefs does not equate to adding any equitable servitude that is not enumerated in the governing documents.

For example, planting daffodils near my door affects the appearance of my home but does not meet the jurisdiction of an ACC request. Your HOA might require small plantings to submit an ACC request. It all depends on what's in your governing documents.

In this situation, the state law is clear and explicit about HOA's cannot restrict and/or prohibit the install (except for a few specific reasons). This is analogous to many other state laws as well as the federal FCC laws. Numerous analogous case laws and precedence have ruled that ACC Approval requirements do in fact restrict and/or prohibit.

So I guess I'm asking for what sources or cases one might use to support the opinion that ACC can require approval.

Okay, so you are operating from an understanding that your CCR's do not allow the HOA to require permission for solar panels.

No, that is an incorrect assessment. I am operating from an understanding that State Law trumps HOA CCR's and State Law says X, Y, Z, which conflicts with the CCR's and that understanding is supported by numerous case law and court rulings.

Originally, the CCR's did have the authority and jurisdiction over solar panels as well as require ACC submission, but laws changed, and it is no longer valid. This isn't a new concept.

to go to an extreme analog, many HOA's used to require permission to fly a flag or political sign. Many states have passed laws that say exactly the same "may not prohibit, restrict, blah blah blah."

Would you agree that someone needs to submit an ACC request to fly the American flag or post a sign for "Elect candidate" ? Yes or no?

Well, you disagreed with my premise that HOA's have a right to require approval of exterior modifications to your home. Which is it? Can HOA's require approval of exterior modifications to your home, or not?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 10:18 AM

Well, you disagreed with my premise that HOA's have a right to require approval of exterior modifications to your home. Which is it? Can HOA's require approval of exterior modifications to your home, or not?

No, I disagreed with your statement that "HOA's have the right to require approval for anything you do that affects the appearance of your home." this is simply incorrect, as a matter of fact and law. HOA's only have the right to require whatever is listed in the Governing Documents. Are you disagreeing with this?

I stated that HOA's can require approval for exterior modifications to the extent declared in the Governing Documents (CCR's, ACC rules, etc) and that does not conflict with higher laws. Again, this is a matter of fact and law. Are you disagreeing with this?

Next, there's the issue of Governing Documents conflicting with higher things like City Code, State Law, and Federal Law. Governing Documents can (and many have) list a lot of restrictions, but that doesn't make them legally enforceable if the laws change to conflict with the CCR. Again, this is a matter of fact and law. Are you disagreeing with this?

I just want to make sure we are on the same page and are agreeing to the same terms and rules. If you disagree with these two things, then I don't think we can even begin to have this conversation.
1. Can an HOA just enforce whatever it feels like, or is it bound to the equitable servitudes listed in the governing documents?
2. Can an HOA enforce something that conflicts with a higher law?

Can we just make sure we're on the same page before getting into the back and forth and specifics and details of the topic?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 10:39 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 10:18 AM

Well, you disagreed with my premise that HOA's have a right to require approval of exterior modifications to your home. Which is it? Can HOA's require approval of exterior modifications to your home, or not?

No, I disagreed with your statement that "HOA's have the right to require approval for anything you do that affects the appearance of your home." this is simply incorrect, as a matter of fact and law. HOA's only have the right to require whatever is listed in the Governing Documents. Are you disagreeing with this?

I stated that HOA's can require approval for exterior modifications to the extent declared in the Governing Documents (CCR's, ACC rules, etc) and that does not conflict with higher laws. Again, this is a matter of fact and law. Are you disagreeing with this?

Next, there's the issue of Governing Documents conflicting with higher things like City Code, State Law, and Federal Law. Governing Documents can (and many have) list a lot of restrictions, but that doesn't make them legally enforceable if the laws change to conflict with the CCR. Again, this is a matter of fact and law. Are you disagreeing with this?

I just want to make sure we are on the same page and are agreeing to the same terms and rules. If you disagree with these two things, then I don't think we can even begin to have this conversation.
1. Can an HOA just enforce whatever it feels like, or is it bound to the equitable servitudes listed in the governing documents?
2. Can an HOA enforce something that conflicts with a higher law?

Can we just make sure we're on the same page before getting into the back and forth and specifics and details of the topic?

I agree with both of those points. That what I said in my first post; that your premise is that your rules conflict with the state law, and that we all disagree with that premise.

Let's try this. If not for the law that you linked, could your HOA require approval of solar panels?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Adam seem like the fellow that believes he won every battle he ever fought but does not understand how he lost the war.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/01/2022 10:00 AM
I agree with Augustin and David. Adam is trying to play word games and some of us can see that. Solar systems are far larger & more visible than the antennas he tried to use as a comparison. Restrict & prohibit are NOT defined the same way. To oh-so-cleverly suggest it's like to-may-to to-mah-to--pronunciation--is inane.

Associations have Rules & Regulations and many have Architectural Guidelines. Rules about the installation, paint color, location, etc. most likely would be in one of these documents, not in the CC&RS, just as front door paint color would be in those documents.

From davis-stirling.com, CA Civ 714 refers to all roofs no matter who owns them, i.e.,separate interest roofs are included in this code. 714 (d) (1): “Whenever approval is required for the installation or use of a solar energy system, the application for approval shall be processed and approved by the appropriate approving entity in the same manner as an application for approval of an architectural modification to the property, and shall not be willfully avoided or delayed.” ARCs are definitely allowed to approve certain elements.

So David is correct and Adam, well, isn't.

Returning to Idaho and again as Augustin points out, the legislations clearly states: "A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels..." So whether or not the CC&Rs refer to rules concerning the exterior appearance of detached homes, this legislation out solar applies to his HOA.

Curious to know, Adam, why you are so concerned about this topic.

I really think you are being quite disingenuous. I really don't understand what you're arguing when you say "can not restrict" is different from "no restrictions that prohibits". --> Please help me understand what you are trying to say?

https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title55/t55ch1/sect55-115/
1st sentence, abridged: No HOA may enforce any restriction (or use CCR in totality?) that prohibits the installation of solar panels, however, the HOA may determine specific location as long as installation is permitted towards the south/+-45deg.
2nd sentence, abridged: A HOA may adopt reasonable rules for installation consistent with building code or require panels to be parallel to the roof, and supports are painted to match the roof.
3rd sentence, abridged: This applies only to individually owned roofs.

Sorry, but I don't think I saw anything about size of the system described in the state law. I brought in the FCC law as an analog that reads nearly identical. aka "restrictions are prohibited" and Federal Law has clearly come out and stated that prior approvals restrict the installation.

No one is saying that ACC guidelines and approval processes don't exist. I think you're getting stuck in a tangent. This issue is that state law says "HOA restrictions are prohibited." and does this mean that an approval is tantamount to a restriction. Looking at case law, I would say yes.

Finally, to address your Davis-Stirling citation, I think you need to fully understand what is going on with the CA law. There are two laws: 714 and 714.1. Did you read both and understand how they work together? Davis-Stirling did, but you neglected to highlight their correct summary.

714(e) discusses "whenever approval is required" --> this outlines the requirements for when approval is required. Yes, agreed, according to state law, when approval is authorized, then an HOA may require approval.
714.1 discusses what the reasonable restrictions are, including when an HOA is allowed to require approval. Requiring approval is only allowed on common areas and shared-use (separate interest). SFH, personal homes are not authorized to require approval.

the Davis-Stirling website describes all of this, and this was previously pointed out already.

So yes, I agree, Davis-Stirling website is correct, requiring approval is allowed for common area and shared-use roofs. That's not what we are talking about here.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/S/Solar-Energy-Systems
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-714
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-7141

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 10:45 AM

I agree with both of those points. That what I said in my first post; that your premise is that your rules conflict with the state law, and that we all disagree with that premise.

Let's try this. If not for the law that you linked, could your HOA require approval of solar panels?

Yes, absolutely, if my governing documents discussed things like regulating the exterior, roof, etc of a property. You are aware that some HOA's are very loose and just discuss the bare minimum in their governing documents, right?
For me specifically, in fact, my CCR's even have a section dedicated to saying that No devices of any kind are allowed.

However, state law changed, voiding that section of the CCR.

====================
so here we are. We both agree that 1) HOA's can only enforce what is authorized per the governing documents, and that 2) State Law supercedes HOA governing documents.

So can you help me understand what you are relying on to form your opinion?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 11:07 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 10:45 AM

I agree with both of those points. That what I said in my first post; that your premise is that your rules conflict with the state law, and that we all disagree with that premise.

Let's try this. If not for the law that you linked, could your HOA require approval of solar panels?

Yes, absolutely, if my governing documents discussed things like regulating the exterior, roof, etc of a property. You are aware that some HOA's are very loose and just discuss the bare minimum in their governing documents, right?
For me specifically, in fact, my CCR's even have a section dedicated to saying that No devices of any kind are allowed.

However, state law changed, voiding that section of the CCR.

====================
so here we are. We both agree that 1) HOA's can only enforce what is authorized per the governing documents, and that 2) State Law supercedes HOA governing documents.

So can you help me understand what you are relying on to form your opinion?

You need to read more slowly and carefully, as from the start I have told you that #2 is correct. This is what everyone here is telling you. The law that you linked does not state nor imply that HOA's cannot require permission to install solar panels. It simply does not.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 11:07 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 10:45 AM

I agree with both of those points. That what I said in my first post; that your premise is that your rules conflict with the state law, and that we all disagree with that premise.

Let's try this. If not for the law that you linked, could your HOA require approval of solar panels?

Yes, absolutely, if my governing documents discussed things like regulating the exterior, roof, etc of a property. You are aware that some HOA's are very loose and just discuss the bare minimum in their governing documents, right?
For me specifically, in fact, my CCR's even have a section dedicated to saying that No devices of any kind are allowed.

However, state law changed, voiding that section of the CCR.

====================
so here we are. We both agree that 1) HOA's can only enforce what is authorized per the governing documents, and that 2) State Law supercedes HOA governing documents.

So can you help me understand what you are relying on to form your opinion?

Apologies - hit "enter" while I was still editing. Let me try again.

We are back where we started. You believe the state law says HOA's cannot require approval prior to installing solar panels. What I am telling you, and everyone here is telling you, is that the law you linked does not state nor imply any such thing.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 11:14 AM

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 11:07 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 10:45 AM

I agree with both of those points. That what I said in my first post; that your premise is that your rules conflict with the state law, and that we all disagree with that premise.

Let's try this. If not for the law that you linked, could your HOA require approval of solar panels?

Yes, absolutely, if my governing documents discussed things like regulating the exterior, roof, etc of a property. You are aware that some HOA's are very loose and just discuss the bare minimum in their governing documents, right?
For me specifically, in fact, my CCR's even have a section dedicated to saying that No devices of any kind are allowed.

However, state law changed, voiding that section of the CCR.

====================
so here we are. We both agree that 1) HOA's can only enforce what is authorized per the governing documents, and that 2) State Law supercedes HOA governing documents.

So can you help me understand what you are relying on to form your opinion?

You need to read more slowly and carefully, as from the start I have told you that #2 is correct. This is what everyone here is telling you. The law that you linked does not state nor imply that HOA's cannot require permission to install solar panels. It simply does not.

Correct, it does not say that, nor does it say in the explicit list of things that an HOA can do that an HOA can require approval. Hence my looking to relevant case law, other states, and other laws.

Case law shows that approvals are equivalent to restrictions. Federal law has unequivocally said that "requirements to get approval before installing an antenna are prohibited" with respect to very similar antenna/satellite laws.

So we all agree on the foundation here. Can you help me understand what you are using to form the opinion that an approval process is allowed?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 11:19 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 11:14 AM

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 11:07 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 04/01/2022 10:45 AM

I agree with both of those points. That what I said in my first post; that your premise is that your rules conflict with the state law, and that we all disagree with that premise.

Let's try this. If not for the law that you linked, could your HOA require approval of solar panels?

Yes, absolutely, if my governing documents discussed things like regulating the exterior, roof, etc of a property. You are aware that some HOA's are very loose and just discuss the bare minimum in their governing documents, right?
For me specifically, in fact, my CCR's even have a section dedicated to saying that No devices of any kind are allowed.

However, state law changed, voiding that section of the CCR.

====================
so here we are. We both agree that 1) HOA's can only enforce what is authorized per the governing documents, and that 2) State Law supercedes HOA governing documents.

So can you help me understand what you are relying on to form your opinion?

You need to read more slowly and carefully, as from the start I have told you that #2 is correct. This is what everyone here is telling you. The law that you linked does not state nor imply that HOA's cannot require permission to install solar panels. It simply does not.

Correct, it does not say that, nor does it say in the explicit list of things that an HOA can do that an HOA can require approval. Hence my looking to relevant case law, other states, and other laws.

Case law shows that approvals are equivalent to restrictions. Federal law has unequivocally said that "requirements to get approval before installing an antenna are prohibited" with respect to very similar antenna/satellite laws.

So we all agree on the foundation here. Can you help me understand what you are using to form the opinion that an approval process is allowed?

I've told you twice already what I am using; a reading of the law. Without the law, the HOA can require approval. The law does not say anything to suggest the HOA can no longer require approval. The law only states that the HOA can not make restrictions that are so strict they effectively prohibit solar panels. And so, the HOA can still require approval - so they can confirm prior to installation that it will abide by their non-prohibitive requirements.

This is how I read it, this is how everyone else hear reads it, and I would wager large $$$ that is how any court would read it. You can insist we are all wrong, but I don't know what you will gain; nor do I know what you think you are gaining from this conversation.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Idaho law states: "A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels..." So, whether or not the CC&Rs refer toor permits rules concerning the exterior appearance of items attached yo detached homes, this legislation solar applies to his HOA.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/01/2022 11:37 AM
Idaho law states: "A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels..." So, whether or not the CC&Rs refer toor permits rules concerning the exterior appearance of items attached yo detached homes, this legislation solar applies to his HOA.

did the you read that entire sentence?

A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels or solar collectors consistent with an applicable building code or to require that panels or collectors be parallel to a roof line, conform to the slope of the roof, and that any frame, support bracket, or visible piping or wiring be painted to coordinate with the roofing material.

reasonable rules for the installation consistent with building codes, or to require the color of the support structure.

That's it. You can't leave out the rest of the sentence and then apply whatever you feel like.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 8:01 AM

In both of these FCC decisions, the ever un-helpful Community Associations Institute (CAI) entered the fray. The CAI fought for HOAs having the right to restrict antennae. The CAI was unsuccessful. E.g.:

By my reading, HOAs have a right to impose certain restrictions. They do not have a right to impose certain other restrictions.

If common area property is involved, the HOA's rights to impose restrictions tend to be greater.

I agree that the statute on antennae, owners and renters has increasingly resulted in favorable rulings for owners and renters alike. But these owners and renters still do not have carte blanche with regard to their antennae installations.

That a HOA can impose no restrictions is simply false.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1 on 04/01/2022 11:19 AM

Correct, it does not say that, nor does it say in the explicit list of things that an HOA can do that an HOA can require approval. Hence my looking to relevant case law, other states, and other laws.

Case law shows that approvals are equivalent to restrictions. Federal law has unequivocally said that "requirements to get approval before installing an antenna are prohibited" with respect to very similar antenna/satellite laws.

I can appreciate the parallel you are trying to draw. However the law on antenna installation is distinguishable from the law on solar panel installation as follows:

-- The law on antenna installation derives from the 1996 Federal Telecommunications Act, Section 207. The latter states:

Within 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the [Federal Communications] Commission shall, pursuant to section 303 of the Communications Act of 1934, promulgate regulations to prohibit restrictions that impair a viewer’s ability to receive video programming services through devices designed for over-the-air reception of television broadcast signals, multichannel multipoint distribution service, or direct broadcast satellite services.

-- As instructed by Congress, the Federal Communications Commission has established regulations over the years to enforce Section 207 of the 1996 Act.

-- In my opinion the FCC has understandably created such regulations with particular attention to the word "prohibit" above.

-- By my reading, the FCC's rules have and continue to recognize that there is some conflict between the rights that Section 207 seeks to protect and land or infrastructure ownership rights. As an example, consider that Neighbor Joe Brown has a lawful right to tell neighbor Sally Jones that Jones may not build an antenna on Brown's property. I think the latter is obvious to all. Where things get murky is when renters want antenna on property owned by a landlord or owners in a condo association want antenna on property the COA owns. The renters and owners may have no reasonable alternative to install an antenna. Enter the FCC. The FCC orders landlords and HOAs to allow antenna, with the landlord and HOA permitted to apply only certain, specific minimal restrictions.

-- By contrast, the Idaho law on solar installations does not say, "the state prohibits restrictions that impair a homeowner's ability to have her or his home powered by solar sources." The Idaho law says that certain restrictions on solar sources for powering one's home are allowed.

-- Either the FCC or the courts or both have said that 30-day architectural committee approvals are an unreasonable delay on an owner when it comes to antenna installation. Would the courts say the same in interpreting the current Idaho solar statute? So far, I do not think this will happen. The current Idaho statute says, for one thing, that "reasonable rules" are allowed. According to the statute, some of these "reasonable rules" may involve certain explicit architectural aspects of the solar installation.

-- I think urgency certainly has driven some of the FCC decisions, and rightly so. Back in the day, folks in the United States needed antennae to function.

-- I think it is possible that the urgency for electric power from non-fossil fuel sources may lead to amendment of the Idaho law.That is, down the road I think it is entirely possible (maybe even likely) that the Idaho state legislature will amend the law to rein in still further HOAs' powers to restrict solar installations. I think it's even possible that the Idaho legislature may amend the Idaho statute to state, in so many words, "HOAs may not restrict solar installations of member-owners in any way, shape or form." Until that day and in my opinion, the Idaho statute says what it says.

Two cents.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/01/2022 12:54 PM
The current Idaho statute says, for one thing, that "reasonable rules" are allowed. According to the statute, some of these "reasonable rules" may involve certain explicit architectural aspects of the solar installation.

The above is an unacceptable rendering of what the Idaho statute says.

Yada yada. I am returning to AdamL1's specific concerns about his HOA's rules. To review, the statute says:

A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels or solar collectors consistent with an applicable building code or to require that panels or collectors be parallel to a roof line, conform to the slope of the roof, and that any frame, support bracket, or visible piping or wiring be painted to coordinate with the roofing material. The provisions of this subsection shall apply only to rooftops that are owned, controlled, and maintained by the homeowner.

AdamL1 inquired specifically about the following:

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1

First, State Law says that the HOA cannot restrict.....yet the HOA says that you can't install unless you submit an ACC application.

I think an ACC application seeking proof of consistency with the building code; a design having panels or collectors parallel to the roof line (if the HOA wants and to the extent other CCRs allow); and so on from the statute is a reasonable rule.

If the timeframe for approval gets too long, this may cross over to "unreasonable."

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1
Second, the HOA has a lot of restrictions (color, glare, location) that are not authorized by State Law.

Does the applicable building code say anything about color (of panels?), glare and location? Also the statute does say the HOA may regulate the painting scheme to some extent. For now, I will just say that the HOA may very well be out of line here.

Quote:

Posted By AdamL1

Third, the HOA requires professional installation.

I think the statute probably does not permit such a rule. As AdamL1 noted, do-it-yourselfers are often capable and permitted to do xyz, as long as they are complying with the applicable construction code.

Bottom line, if AdamL1 is looking to be angry about the HOA's regulation of solar panels, I think he is justified in saying the HOA is messing up things.

AdamL1, if you were seeking some validation on this subject, then for what it is worth, you have it from me. If I lived in this HOA, then on the one hand, I would be displeased that the HOA is not making more effort to get this right. On the other hand, what a chore it would be to have to be on the Board and put together the rules for solar installation. Given the urgency (IMO), if I were on this Board I might vote for "anything goes."

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Third, the HOA requires professional installation. I think the statute probably does not permit such a rule. As AdamL1 noted, do-it-yourselfers are often capable and permitted to do xyz, as long as they are complying with the applicable construction code.

Do you think this is true in a condo community where the roof is maintained by the HOA? I find it hard to believe our insurance company or our lawyer would agree.

Also I do want to point out that do-it-yourselfers are often capable of doing some of the most hideous work imaginable and will often take short cuts when they don't know what they are doing. Based on my experience flipping houses I would wager that the percent of do-it yourselfers that know what they are doing is at best 50%. Everybody thinks they're an expert and ultimately the next guy, the HOA in this case, is left to clean up the mess at their expense.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 04/02/2022 3:49 AM

Third, the HOA requires professional installation. I think the statute probably does not permit such a rule. As AdamL1 noted, do-it-yourselfers are often capable and permitted to do xyz, as long as they are complying with the applicable construction code.

Do you think this is true in a condo community where the roof is maintained by the HOA? I find it hard to believe our insurance company or our lawyer would agree.

By my reading, the Idaho statute under discussion here does not apply to condominiums.

A Californian posted this past year about grief he was getting about installing solar panels on his townhome's roof (maybe the garage roof, in particular?). The HOA/COA had maintenance responsibility for the roof. I believe the California statute is far more generous to those who want solar installations. I think it best to refer further discussion on this point to this other thread or a new thread.

I agree the concerns change dramatically when an owner wants to mess with common area. IIRC the other thread indicated a great deal of messiness in protecting the COA (like JohnT38 suggests) while respecting owners' rights to solar.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 04/02/2022 3:49 AM

Third, the HOA requires professional installation. I think the statute probably does not permit such a rule. As AdamL1 noted, do-it-yourselfers are often capable and permitted to do xyz, as long as they are complying with the applicable construction code.

Do you think this is true in a condo community where the roof is maintained by the HOA? I find it hard to believe our insurance company or our lawyer would agree.

Also I do want to point out that do-it-yourselfers are often capable of doing some of the most hideous work imaginable and will often take short cuts when they don't know what they are doing. Based on my experience flipping houses I would wager that the percent of do-it yourselfers that know what they are doing is at best 50%. Everybody thinks they're an expert and ultimately the next guy, the HOA in this case, is left to clean up the mess at their expense.

I Agree with that John. I worked security in a highrise condo the HOA was strict on rules and procedures. Vendors had to be pre-approved by the HOA and had to have on file their state license, meet insurance liability and be properly bonded and credentialed. Even residents own housekeepers had to be properly licensed and bonded. The HOA was so strict that they could not drag a vacuum cleaner up the main entrance let alone the service entrance. So yes a condo or town home association can make such request.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

But Adam's talking about detached homes to other kinds.

Is it true, Adam, that your CC&Rs have no sections about what owners may or may not do to the exteriors of their house structure (not flowerbeds)?

And do the CC&Rs make any reference to rules or other documents that relate to maintenance or repair of such exterior?

Does your HOA have any ARC Guidelines or other rules related to exterior of homes? If so, please cite them.

Who maintains or repairs or replaces roofs? We have seen here that the HOA does, even on detached homes, in some cases.

In the mid-1970s in Santa Cruz, CA my spouse & I had a solar system installed on our detached home's roof for our domestic hot water and redwood (of course!) via a healthy incentive from the state. There were indeed a lot of City hoops to jump through as I recall. We left the house a few times but at our last return to it, we finally sold it in 2003. The system still worked perfectly. I can only guess that huge progress has been made in the last 40+ years. But I think any HOA should require that such system be installed by a an appropriately licensed contractor. What does your municipality require, Adam?

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/02/2022 1:26 PM
But I think any HOA should require that such system be installed by a an appropriately licensed contractor.

The Idaho HOA Solar statute is pretty specific about the areas to which the "reasonable rules" must pertain. To quote again:

A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels or solar collectors consistent with an applicable building code or to require that panels or collectors be parallel to a roof line, conform to the slope of the roof, and that any frame, support bracket, or visible piping or wiring be painted to coordinate with the roofing material. The provisions of this subsection shall apply only to rooftops that are owned, controlled, and maintained by the homeowner.

By my reading, no other rules are allowed.

I do not see how a rule requiring a licensed contractor fits into any of the categories the statute lists.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 04/02/2022 1:37 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/02/2022 1:26 PM
But I think any HOA should require that such system be installed by a an appropriately licensed contractor.

The Idaho HOA Solar statute is pretty specific about the areas to which the "reasonable rules" must pertain. To quote again:

A homeowner’s association may adopt reasonable rules for the installation of solar panels or solar collectors consistent with an applicable building code or to require that panels or collectors be parallel to a roof line, conform to the slope of the roof, and that any frame, support bracket, or visible piping or wiring be painted to coordinate with the roofing material. The provisions of this subsection shall apply only to rooftops that are owned, controlled, and maintained by the homeowner.

By my reading, no other rules are allowed.

I do not see how a rule requiring a licensed contractor fits into any of the categories the statute lists.

I think this makes sense if you own and maintain your own roof. If you screw up your roof or mess up the electrical work needed then you pay the consequences and nobody else does. I'm not up on solar at all but it was my understanding that somehow the electrical work needs to tie back to the meter and the main breaker box in the home. If this is correct there is a lot at stake if it is done wrong.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 04/02/2022 1:59 PM
I think this makes sense if you own and maintain your own roof. If you screw up your roof or mess up the electrical work needed then you pay the consequences and nobody else does. I'm not up on solar at all but it was my understanding that somehow the electrical work needs to tie back to the meter and the main breaker box in the home. If this is correct there is a lot at stake if it is done wrong.

I feel similarly. But I would think city and county permitting requirements, along with utility company rules, translate to Jane Handywoman hiring the appropriately licensed electricians or ultimately, a properly licensed inspector.

Either way, I think the HOA likely has neither control nor say about tying into the local electric company's system.