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JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Looking for advice.

On 10/27/21, I filled out a request via the HOA site that I was painting the house and provided the colors (yellow and white). About 10 days later the former HOA president called me to clarify the colors and recommended that I upload the color name/codes. I uploaded the colors on 11/12/21. I called the former HOA president on 11/24/21 to see if it was approved as I was planning to paint in early December. He told me that 3 out of the 5 members need to approve it. That he was OK with it and it shouldn't be a problem and if it was that he would call me back later that day or the next. It was too cold to paint in December.

On 2/21/22, I put in a request to get my tree removed and mentioned in the request that I was going to paint the house as I requested in November and was approved (so I thought) in March. They approved the tree removal and there were no comments on me painting the house.

On 3/19/22, I paint the 3 sides of the house. The following morning, I get a call from the new HOA president (he was vice-president last year and voted against the color), that the paint had been denied in November 2021. I was shocked. I told them that they never told me it was denied, they didn't email me, and on the HOA website the request is still open. I told him per my conversation with the former HOA president that if there was any problems with the color being denied that they would let me know. Also, if a color is denied, they would usually let the homeowner know so that they can choose a different color. I never received that call.

Someone at the HOA from the prior year failed to do their job and didn't notify me. Also, all of the HOA members who read my tree removal request from 2/21/22 should have either cross reference my November paint request or at least send me a comment that I have to address my house painting on the original house painting request from November or start a new one. But they completely ignored the house painting portion.

The HOA offered to pay me $1000 and to change the color but my cost is about $1800. I don't feel that I should be responsible for any of the cost as it was their mistake, and they know HOA DROPPED THE BALL.

Per the Homeowners Association, the Architectural Review Committee (which I think we don't have one therefore it is the HOA Board) are the ones who must approve all paint colors. Per the Declaration of Protective Covenants the Architectural Review Committee has 60 days to approve or deny a request. If they don't approve or deny in 60 days then no approval is necessary and you can proceed with the project requested. Supposedly they voted and denied the paint color but never notified my verbally, in writing, text, nor in the online request. As far as I am concern, by default my project is approved as I didn't get an answer regarding my request.

So my question to you is do I have the right to keep the color that I painted the house as more than 60 days have past since my request (5 months) and per our Covenants they were supposed to notify me within 60 days?

Also, If I have to change the color, do you agree that due to one of the HOA Board members negligence in failing to notify me that the color was denied, that I should be reimbursed my total $1800 given that I provide reciepts for the job done thus far?

Please let me know your thoughts. I want to do what is right as I know the HOA Board members are volunteers but at the same time, I am the victim of their negligence and I don't want their negligence costing me money.

Thank you.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/25/2022 5:44 PM
On 10/27/21, I filled out a request via the HOA site that I was painting the house and provided the colors (yellow and white). About 10 days later the former HOA president called me to clarify the colors and recommended that I upload the color name/codes. I uploaded the colors on 11/12/21. I called the former HOA president on 11/24/21 to see if it was approved as I was planning to paint in early December. He told me that 3 out of the 5 members need to approve it. That he was OK with it and it shouldn't be a problem and if it was that he would call me back later that day or the next. It was too cold to paint in December.
This is not approval. Why? Because the covenants say it is not approval. In particular, the covenants do not say that the President by him or herself makes these decisions.
Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/25/2022 5:44 PM

On 2/21/22, I put in a request to get my tree removed and mentioned in the request that I was going to paint the house as I requested in November and was approved (so I thought) in March. They approved the tree removal and there were no comments on me painting the house.

On 3/19/22, I paint the 3 sides of the house. The following morning, I get a call from the new HOA president (he was vice-president last year and voted against the color), that the paint had been denied in November 2021. I was shocked. I told them that they never told me it was denied, they didn't email me, and on the HOA website the request is still open. I told him per my conversation with the former HOA president that if there was any problems with the color being denied that they would let me know. Also, if a color is denied, they would usually let the homeowner know so that they can choose a different color. I never received that call.
You still do not have the approval the covenants require.

Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/25/2022 5:44 PM
Someone at the HOA from the prior year failed to do their job and didn't notify me. Also, all of the HOA members who read my tree removal request from 2/21/22 should have either cross reference my November paint request or at least send me a comment that I have to address my house painting on the original house painting request from November or start a new one. But they completely ignored the house painting portion.
And you completely forgot to ask what the status of your house painting request was.

Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/25/2022 5:44 PM

The HOA offered to pay me $1000 and to change the color but my cost is about $1800. I don't feel that I should be responsible for any of the cost as it was their mistake, and they know HOA DROPPED THE BALL.
You dropped the ball by assuming one director (the president) speaks for the board. He does not. The covenants and state law are crystal clear he does not.

Never communicate with one director in the mistaken belief that the director speaks for the entire board. As a matter of law, he or she does not.

Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/25/2022 5:44 PM
Per the Homeowners Association, the Architectural Review Committee (which I think we don't have one therefore it is the HOA Board) are the ones who must approve all paint colors. Per the Declaration of Protective Covenants the Architectural Review Committee has 60 days to approve or deny a request. If they don't approve or deny in 60 days then no approval is necessary and you can proceed with the project requested. Supposedly they voted and denied the paint color but never notified my verbally, in writing, text, nor in the online request. As far as I am concern, by default my project is approved as I didn't get an answer regarding my request.
Since you are now going all legal (as you should have all along), you could certainly argue this. There are some caveats, though. For example, if the covenants prohibit polka dot-painted houses; an owner asks the Arch Committee to approve a polka-dot paint scheme; 60 days pass and there is no response, is the owner on the correct side of the law when he goes ahead and paints the home polka dot? Not likely. What the owner did blatantly violates the covenants.

I could not say what to do here without knowing more about whether the paint color you used complies with the covenants.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
AugustinD

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate it. This is all new to me.

The covenants don't have paint colors that they approve or don't approve. There are some yellow houses in our community. The yellow that I chose is a brighter shade.

Please let me know your opinion now as there is no list of colors that are prohibited and per the Covenants, they have 60 days to approve or deny the request and if they don't in that time frame then no approval is not needed. They did deny the request per the HOA president but since I was never notified of their decision am I legally OK to paint the house. I know that you are not a lawyer. Just asking for an opinion.

Everything we request to do to the exterior of the house has to be request online so that there is a record, but it seems like the HOA gets a free pass and is not held to the same standards. They should be required to close the request with an approval or denial or at least make a comment on it. As of today, over 5 months from the initial request, my job is still open waiting for them to close it. Looking at that request, you would never know that it was denied. They made no comments requesting alternatives or anything.

Thanks again.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Jay,

Look through your covenants regarding architectural requests to ensure that you didn't wait too long to start the project. Yes, silence from a review committee can result in a default approval but you may still have to start the job with a time period following approval.

If the HOA is willing to foot the $1,800 bill, I'd work with them. Yes, they fumbled communication but it may not mean they don't have standing if you both "lawyer up," which will cost at least $1,800 each to assess the "winner."

JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hi Kelly,

Thank you for your comments. You bring up to great points.

I don't think that the Covenants mentions an expiration once a project is approved to start the project. I will need to double check that.

I was thinking of small claims court, but you are right the cost of lawyering up can be costly on both ends. But it will still cost the HOA money which I prefer that they spend it in the community. I am hoping that they come to their senses and either let the color stand as it actually looks good or refund me the money that I have spent thus far.

In the meantime, the house is painted the color that they denied (yellow) and the front of my house is unpainted as the project has been halted. Does anybody know if this goes to court, can they force me to change the color in the interm or can I wait until this gets settled in court as this can take several years due to the backlog of cases in our court system?

Thanks
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
As Augustin said, YOU assumed the color was approved without checking or getting something in writing, so what makes you think the HOA refund what you've spent? You could have asked about the paint when you asked the tree.

Whether you CCRs mention automatic approval or not, you should always Tetris stuff in writing. You might forget what was said, or the board might forget and either side could just lie and say "that's not what you said...."

If it were me, I'd request an appeal, explain what happened - and name names as to what you were told, so that person can explain himself. He might not have had a problem with the color, but since he knew you'd asked about it, he could have told the rest of the board about the conversation someone could follow you with you.

And if I were on the board, I would say this to everyone and then make a motion to approve the color so you can finish the job. Lesson learned for everyone and both sides avoid court and the expense and time therin. The end.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hi Shelia,

Thanks for your reply and input. I wish you were on my board. Me personally, if I was on the board would do the same as you.

I did follow up with the HOA president last year and he told in November 2021 that it shouldn't be an issue and if it was that they would let me know. So that is why I thought that it was approved. I understand Augustin's point that he has no authority to say that as they must decide as a group. But it is reasonable to think that if they disapproved the color that they should contact me and let me know.

If I want to expand my deck and add a swimming pool to my yard, I can't say that I filled out a request form and never sent it to them. I have to have proof that I put in a request and wait for an answer in 60 days. All of my request must be done online so that they have a record of it. They should be held to the same standard and have it in writing that they denied it and that they sent me their answer and close the request. Or at the very least a text message or phone call. The HOA president knows that one of the HOA board members dropped the ball last year by them not notifying me.

I did tell them that I was going to paint in March when I requested the tree removal in February. They completely ignored it. When I told the current HOA president about this, he said what did they approve. I told him the tree removal. He then replied and then we didn't let you know that the paint was approved. I replied and you did not tell me that it was denied either. Then he said, it should have been in another ticket. I told him that it was from 4 months before that request. And the reason that I put it there was as a courtesy to let them know that I was going to paint in March. The bottom line is that they completely ignored the painting comment on the tree request. They could have very easily cross referenced or at the very least say you need to address this on your initial request. But it was ignored.

Hopefully this gets settled soon.

Thanks again for your input. I appreciate it.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/25/2022 6:45 PM
AugustinD

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate it. This is all new to me.

The covenants don't have paint colors that they approve or don't approve.
Is there a clause requiring that any changes to home exteriors must be harmonious with the rest of the community?

Is there any clause that requires the Arch Committee or Board to approve the paint color?

I agree you have been treated poorly. But one needs to operate in reality here. You have a Board that wants you to re-paint the house and will chip in $1000 to do so. Whether the Board is on solid legal ground in making this request/demand is the first question. Whether you are on solid legal ground in refusing to re-paint is the second question. The final question is less about law and more about political reality: How much money does each side want to pay to attorneys to fight this out? HOA Boards can be stupid (this one is being stupid). HOA attorneys will sometimes do whatever HOA boards want. After all, attorneys are trained to argue even ridiculous positions, and the more arguing, the more money the attorney makes. Promoting in-fighting pays HOA attorneys well.

To say anything else that might be helpful, and to repeat, I need to see the covenants.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
For me it comes to down to an $800 question. For $800 do I want to go through the hassle of going through the time and aggravation of waiting to be heard in small claims court when I don't even know what the outcome will be? In addition, during this period of time do I want to come home to a house that is 3/4 painted? Also, do I want to be labeled as the guy who sued his HOA and is a trouble maker? For me my personally answer is no.

If the stakes were higher I would go to court but my time and aggravation for something like this is worth more than $800.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
We had an owner whom decided to paint his house. He chose a color and I was quickly contacted as it was the wrong color. So gave him the color pallet of the HOA. (It was posted at front entrance as well). He choose another color. The thing is that Paint companies change their paint formulas about every 5 - 7 years. So our "Sawyer Fence" color was no longer called "Sawyer Fence". He tried to match but it was still off.

The poor guy ended up changing paint colors 5 times!!! No joke! He actually picked out 100% the right color on selection #4. The problem is that "plum" when it is new looks "bright purple". Once it ages it would have matched the others with that paint. However, until then it looked like a giant Eggplant.

Our HOA has a rule. We could choose to paint your house for you if in violation to correct it. However, it was at our costs and whom we choose. Once completed we would send the owner the bill. If unpaid, then we could place a lien for that money owed plus the lien fees.

A HOA willing to help out is a good thing. Otherwise you could be facing much higher legal expenses you don't want or need.

Former HOA President
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey Augustin,

Thanks for your reply. I value your opinion and everyone one else's whether they agree or me or not. As this is not a clear-cut case and it different people or judges may see things differently.

The Homeowners Association standards and guidelines do say:
"The Board of Directors and the
Architectural Review Committee (ARC) have established these Architectural/Design
Standards in order to maintain the overall design concept for the community, promote
harmonious architectural and environmental design, as well as promote and enhance
the visual and aesthetic appearance."

It also says that the ARC must approve all paint colors. This includes repainting with existing colors. Painting brick is not permitted. *** I believe that we don't have an ARC and it is the HOA Board five members that vote on the colors and give approval or denials to the requests that are filed online. ***

Also in the Covenants it clearly states if they don't approve or deny within 60 days then no approval is necessary. I have listed it below and also attached the file.

"If the ARC fails to approve or, to disapprove submitted plans and
specifications within sixty (60) days after the plans and specifications have been
submitted to it, approval will not be required, and this section will be deemed to
have been fully complied with. As a condition of approval under this Section, each
Owner, on behalf of such, Owner and such Owner's successors-in-interest, shall assume
all responsibilities for maintenance, repair, replacement, and insurance to and on
any change, modification, addition, or alteration. In the discretion of the ARC, an
Owner may be made to verify such condition of approval by a recordable written
instrument acknowledged by such Owner on behalf of such Owner and such Owner's
successors-in-interest. The ARC shall be the sole arbiter of such plans and may
withhold approval for any reason, including purely aesthetic considerations, and it
shall be entitled to stop any construction in violation of these restrictions. Any
member of the Board or its representatives shall have the right, during reasonable
hours and after reasonable notice, to enter upon any property to inspect for the
purpose of ascertaining whether or not these restrictive covenants have been or are
being complied with. Such Person or Persons shall not be deemed guilty of trespass by
reason of such entry. In addition to any other remedies available to the Association,
in the event of noncompliance with this Section, the Board may, as provided in Article XII, Section 1, hereof, record in the appropriate land records a
notice of violation naming the violating Owner."

The fact that they never notified me until 5 months later when the painting started to me means that by default it was over 60 days even if they denied it before that time as they never notified me. I think it is fair to say if I need to do something to the exterior to my house, I need to let them know and whatever they decide they should have the same obligation to let me know of their decision. I did give them a heads up 4 months after my initial request and one month before painting but they ignored it.

Currently everything is on hold and the president is getting back to the HOA to decide if they refund me the $1800 that I have spent on the project. I think that I have enough grounds to take them to court. If they go to court, I would think that them hiring a lawyer would cost them more than the extra $800. I would represent myself and it doesn't matter if I win or lose as long as I don't have to pay their lawyer fees if I lose. But I think that I can win due to negligence on their end.

But after you read below, I think that I may stick my guns and demand that I keep my color as this whole situation is getting uglier the more that I think about it.

*** HERE IS THE PRELUDE BEFORE IT STARTS TO GET INTERESTING ***

There are 9 houses in the cul-de-sac. Two sold last month for over $650,000 each which the owners haven't moved in yet.

Neighbor #1 painted his BRICK house white. It clearly states in the community standards and guidelines that painting BRICK is not allowed. I doubt that he put a request and if he did there was some major bending of the rules there. I am not even sure that they know about it or if they are trying to make him change it but I doubt it as it has been white for at least 10 months now. Even if they try to remove the paint from the brick it may make it worse. I am not in the business of snitching on people.

Neighbor #2 put up a retaining wall shortly after I told him that I was going to put one up. He didn't file a request. He told me that the HOA scolded him but that was it.

I put my request for the retaining wall about 2 weeks after he was reprimanded for his. 5 months later, my request still sits open with no decision or request for any other information. Plus, I let it be known to the HOA president last week when this paint issue started.

I put my request to paint my house yellow (there are yellow houses in the community but mine is brighter) 5 months ago and never was told about the denial.

*** HERE IS THE INTERESTING PART ***

There are about 120 homes in the community and from what I can tell by the list of homeowners' last names there are 3 Hispanic owners. Me, being one of them. Hate to surprise everyone but my name is not Jay. If you would see my name you would know that I am Hispanic, lets just say my name is Francisco Guadalupe Morales (It's not).

I really feel that I am being discriminated against. I keep trying to convince myself that I am not but the more I think about it the more that I think that I am. Neighbor #1 paints his BRICK house white which is against guidelines to paint brick (how did he get approved? If he didn't, it doesn't appear that they are doing anything). Neighbor #2 puts up a retaining wall without requesting permission and no problem. Lets just say that both of their names are John Smith. I, Francisco Guadalupe Morales, put in a request like all community member should do and I get my requests ignored. Then they said they denied my paint color selection in November and they never notify me. This isn't like a request that I want to put in an electric fence and they denied it. End of story. A paint color, I would think that you should get a notification to change the color if you are denied. I received no call or any type of communication. I try to remind them in February that I will be painting in a month and they ignored it. But sure enough, when I started to paint before it could even dry, I get the HOA president calling me. Like I was some maverick who knew that the color was denied but did it anyway. He told me several of the neighbors complained. Which I doubt, as it was a Saturday when I painted and he was calling me on Sunday morning. It had to be either my next door neighbor who was part of the HOA for 6 years in the past or one of my backyard neighbors who is a current member of the HOA. It had to be someone with direct ties as most of my other neighbors like myself are not involved with the HOA and have no idea who the board members are.

Am I being paranoid thinking that there is a conspiracy against me or is this all just coincidence? I think there may be grounds for breach of the Fair House Act on their part. Like I said, I do things by the book but when it comes to my requests I feel that I am being ignored but the moment that I do something they are ready to pounce. I start thinking that it may not be so much the paint color as they haven't addressed my retaining wall issue which either that has been sitting open for 5 months. I am sure that they have addressed many requests made after mine over these past 5 months but continue to ignore mine. I feel if I plan to change a lightbulb or anything meniscal and put in a request that they will either ignore my request or give me a hard time. I hate feeling like that but I do. Hence why I think that I will fight to keep my color and if it means legal action then so be it.

Please anybody, let me know your thoughts and thanks in advance.

I am not looking for someone to agree with me or disagree with me. I am looking for honest opinions on the matter and any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again Augustin and all others. I value your opinions as you guys have lots of knowledge and experience in HOA matters.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey Augustin,

On my long reply, I forgot to mention that it is the ARC that approves the paint but it appears that the HOA board is also the ARC. As last years HOA president told me he was going to vote to OK the color and this years president who was the vice president told me that he personally declined the color himself. And that he had the board this year vote and they declined the color.

Thanks.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey John,

Thanks for the input. I would normally agree with what you said. But the situation is that I believe the person who complained to the HOA about my paint is my next-door neighbor who is planning to sell his house in 3 years. Having the house 3/4 yellow with the front of the house light purple doesn't bother me as I am not planning on selling anytime soon. And if it means if there is an open court case and the house stays that color until this is settled in court which can be several years then it is money well spent from my angle. Even if I lose the case which personally, I don't think that I will, so be it.

The $800 isn't going to make me nor the HOA any richer or poorer but it is the principle of the HOA's negligence that led to all this inconvenience. I feel that I shouldn't be responsible for any of my cost.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
The HOA has a time limit in which to either approve or disapprove a request. It appears the issue is with the HOA board in failing to do their damn job.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hi Melissa,

Thanks for your thoughts. I feel bad for that poor guy.

You guys had strict rules when it came to colors. Here it appears that it is up to the discretion of the ARC which is the HOA Board.

The covenants says that the ARC which is the HOA board has 60 days from my request to approve or deny my request. If they don't then the request doesn't require approval. Even though they may have decided, they never told me of their denial until 5 months later which was after I painted 3/4 of the house.

My question to you and I know that you are not a lawyer, but you may have had or heard of a similar situation in the past is if I take this to court based on the argument that the paint color should not require approval as per the covenants due to 60 days passing from the request and me never received an answer from the HOA, can they force me to paint while the case is court? I don't think they can as the whole reason that I will take them to court is due to the covenants saying that I don't need approval due to the 60 days passing and their negligence.

Please let me know your thoughts.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey Max,

I agree with you a 100%. I know our HOA board is voluntary and I am not trying to give them a hard time. It seems to me that this HOA is trying to make me, who is the victim, as the bad guy especially when they know that they screwed up. When I was in the Army, if you did something wrong, you owed up to your mistakes. No excuses.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/26/2022 11:06 PM
The HOA has a time limit in which to either approve or disapprove a request. It appears the issue is with the HOA board in failing to do their damn job.

I agree Jay. The paragraph reads very clearly that the ARC had 60 days to approve or disapprove the paint color. I sense your frustration and I do not live in your neighborhood but I wouldn't be quick to jump to any racist conclusions. That is unless there are other incidences that are obvious.

I am making an assumption here. You said your paint color is brighter than the other yellow painted homes in your community. Maybe that is the objection. Personally, I love yellow. It is such a cheerful color. My last house was yellow but a subdued yellow. I am not a big fan of bright yellow homes. I would guess many others agree with me.

This is a suggestion. Propose to the board that you will add some white paint to tone down the brightness and repaint the sides you have completed. They may or may not agree to that but it is worth a try. I am a person who believes in compromise when it comes to these kinds of conflicts. As someone who has been involved in litigation with my HOA, believe me you do not want to go down that path over paint colors. It takes a financial and emotional toll that in the end is not worth it.

Good luck.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Our HOA had approved color list passed down from the Developer. A HOA usually does have a list of materials and or colors can be used. Many HOA's have "Themes". Ours was a "New England sea village cottage". (I know Alabama right?).

Think your HOA may need get a list to keep. Plus we had the recommended paint like Behr. The list of paint was to be on file at like Home Depot, Lowes, or Sherwin Williams. Was to be able to contact them with the right color scheme for your exact HOA. Atleast that is how many HOA's around here are doing it. I get a free can of paint from Sherwin Williams for touch up purposes.

After this I think your ARC/HOA board needs to go around with a color swatch to each house to match to a list. Like I said before the Paint companies change color pallets every 5 - 7 years or so. Which means a paint color 10 years ago that was picked may not exist unless you got the formula.

Also fresh paint and the gloss level makes a difference on how paint looks on a house. The "Plum" color came off bright and he did even try a "Yellow". It just needs to tone down over time. Which can be about 2 years.

May note paint application can make a difference. You can spray, roll, or brush on. Spray is watered down and can make the colors/application not look good. Roller is a bit thicker in appearance. Brushing is the most recommended but most expensive to apply.


Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
JayF2, my thoughts:

What works for you:

-- Failure to approve or deny within 60 days with clarity, and so with caveats.

-- Possibly the lack of an ACC. Though I believe many courts would say that the Board is then the default authority.

-- The lack of specific guidance on paint colors. I believe the courts tend to want to see a lot more guidance to owners than "must be harmonious."

-- Possible selective enforcement of the covenants regarding harmonious design, the painting of homes et cetera. It's the stuff that causes litigation to be long and expensive.

What works against you:
-- I will assume that the covenants do in fact have verbiage that speaks of a harmonious appearance of homes or similar wording. If so, then I believe a court might rule against an owner that made a change that was a flagrant violation of the covenants, even if deadlines for approval passed. A court might say: Mr. JayF2, you knew the colors must be harmonious. The bright yellow you used arguably is not harmonious. Yes there was a 60-day time limit for the Board/ACC to approve, and this time period passed. But you had a copy of the covenants before you bought your home. You knew harmoniousness was important. Why shouldn't the HOA be able to tag you with a violation of the harmonious clause in the Declaration?

-- Regarding Fair Housing law violations: My experience is now pretty extensive on this subject. The mighty cogs of HUD's bureaucracy will, within a few months process a complaint that says: "The HOA refused to approve my house paint because I am Hispanic-American. The proof is that my last name sounds Hispanic-American. and I got denied/ignored. Others without such last names did not." But without a clear connection that the reason the Board did not approve your application is because you are Hispanic-American, you are doomed. Remember that, the HOA need only respond to HUD that the reason it did not approve your home's proposed paint color was due to a lack of harmony with the other homes, this is not necessarily a lie. To get anywhere with a Fair Housing complaint, the evidence has to be incredibly solid.

-- You could skip HUD and hire an attorney. I expect this will cost a lot more than $1800 just for the attorney to write a demand letter. If the principle here is important to you, and you have the money, go for it. But the HOA may very well dig in, and you're left with taking the HOA to court on very poor ground indeed in my opinion. You were mis-treated with regard to the ACC approval. But is the mistreatment worth giving up a lot of your life?

-- In another volunteer gig, I am eyewitnessing what I feel is gross discrimination on the basis of race in another volunteer gig. The problem is that the details make it impossible to prove. Any party who has aggrieved standing (meaning they themselves would say they were discriminated against because of their race) would get nowhere.

Options:
-- Do not re-paint your home. Wait for the HOA to issue you a violation of the covenants. Per the Georgia POA Act at http://gaddislanier.com/wp-content/uploads/Georgia-Property-Owners-Assoc-Act.pdf, if the HOA's Bylaws or Declaration allow the HOA to issue fines, then the HOA may do so. By my brief reading so far, if you refuse to pay, in Georgia I think the HOA might be able to foreclose on your home. The legal expenses will be incredible.

-- Take the $1000, get approval of the new color, and re-paint.

Keep reading here and you will see what a hassle some HOAs are. In my experience the person who realizes that fighting for principle will cost a lot of time and possibly money is rare. Many have to learn the hard way. I know I did. Unless one has money to throw away, justice at the HOA level is rare.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I want to add:

That the HOA is offering $1000 to re-paint says to me that it admits it did wrong by you. This should be worth a lot. But the fact that it won't cover the full re-painting says the Board may feel you jumped the gun and really violated the harmony requirement.

One other option:

Counter that re-painting will cost $____, and see if the HOA will pay it.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey BancsS,

Thanks for your advice. I agree about not jumping into the racist issues as that will open up a big can of worms. Plus it could be me being paranoid. Just for context, I have not seen the board members and as far as I know they have never seen me. I was born in New Jersey minutes away from New York City 50 years ago. If someone looks at me they wouldn't know that I am Hispanic. Now if someone only looks at my name, they will say this person is Hispanic which they will be correct but may think that I am an illegal immigrant or a second class citizen.

It just seems to me that I am being treated a bit different than others. I think all of this is too much of a coincidence. They ignore my 2 initial requests from November 2021 regarding the paint and the retaining wall, they deny my paint color and never told me, they ignore my comments from February 2022 regarding that I will be painting, they call me to halt my painting before the paint could even dry. In the meantime, I am sure that they have been addressing request that were placed after mine and they also let immediate neighbors get away with things which they probably didn't even put in request for and if they did it was approved against the covenants.

I don't know, if I am I being paranoid? But it seems to me that the HOA has a set of rules that they need to follow but they have a different one for me.

As far as trying to tone down the paint, I will still need to buy the paint and pay the painter. I might just switch the color but it will be on their dime as it was their mistake. Me personally, it doesn't matter if it is the gloomy faded Army green color or a nice luxurious yellow (the yellow that I chose is similar to what one might see in a West Palm Beach mansion). I am not planning to sell the house soon and I don't really have many visitors. So the color of the house is not important to me. My wife is the one that wants that color. But I really am considering buying the green color which I have mentioned and they will have to approve as several houses have that color. Also buy the cheapest paint possible. If it fades in 1 year no big deal on my end. The community has a bunch of faded houses and they are not forcing anyone to paint. It may affect my neighbor, who is probably the snitch, as he is planning on selling his house in 3 years. Instead of having next to his house a beautiful bright house (yellow with white trim), he will have a gloomy faded Army green colored house. Obviously, when ever I decide to sell, I will change the color so that the house looks more attractive.

I have attached tried to attach a picture of the rear of the house with the yellow paint but somehow it doesn't accept the format.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/27/2022 9:00 AM
I don't know, if I am I being paranoid? But it seems to me that the HOA has a set of rules that they need to follow but they have a different one for me.
You're not being paranoid. Racism against Black people and Hispanic people rules in this country. Whether you have a solid case of discrimination on the basis of race, color or national origin that would get you anywhere is the question. I think you do not.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why were you painting in February? Read the side of any paint can. You don't paint in certain temperatures. Anything below the high of 40 for a week and anything above 85 for a week high is not good for paint. You would have basically had to repaint again because the paint temperatures.

Believe me I know from experience... I had the same fight recently with my HOA. Demanding I paint my new fence. It has been raining and temps below 40 for 3 months. Plus new wood has to weather a bit before you can paint. Just slapping paint up isn't the best way to handle things.

Former HOA President
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hi Augustin,

Thanks for your advice as it is pure gold. I have read your comments on other people's issues in this discussion group and it is always solid advice that you provide.

I initially thought taking them to small claims court would only cost me my time and court fees but once I figured out, thanks to this group, that I may have to pay for their attorney fees then that is a game changer as the cost can add up quickly.

Per your comment:
-- Regarding Fair Housing law violations: My experience is now pretty extensive on this subject. The mighty cogs of HUD's bureaucracy will, within a few months process a complaint that says: "The HOA refused to approve my house paint because I am Hispanic-American. The proof is that my last name sounds Hispanic-American. and I got denied/ignored. Others without such last names did not." But without a clear connection that the reason the Board did not approve your application is because you are Hispanic-American, you are doomed. Remember that, the HOA need only respond to HUD that the reason it did not approve your home's proposed paint color was due to a lack of harmony with the other homes, this is not necessarily a lie. To get anywhere with a Fair Housing complaint, the evidence has to be incredibly solid.

My complaint regarding this issue isn't necessarily that they denied my color because of my name, as they have the right to deny it. It is the fact that they have:
-- Ignored my other request for the retaining wall that was place in November 2021. I am sure that they have processed requests dated after mine for other community members.
-- That they may have purposely failed to notify me that they denied my color. I would figure if it was anyone one else in our community or in any other HOA in the country that if they deny a color that they would let the homeowner know so that they can chose a new color and not leave them in the dark. It could be an honest mistake on their part but when I start looking at all the other issues as a whole regarding me, I am not so sure it was a mistake. They could have told me then to pick another color and my house would have been painted by now.
-- They ignored my comment in my February 2022 request for the tree removal that I will be painting in March which I referenced my November request.
-- The HOA president calling me on a Sunday morning before the paint even dried. Calling me to halt the project and telling me that they had denied the color and that he personally voted against.
-- One of my neighbors across the street paints his brick house white which is against the HOA rules to paint brick.
-- My other neighbor gets a mild scolding (is told "next time put in a request") after he is putting up his retaining wall without a request. But he is not told to halt the project until the HOA board can vote on it. They let him continue.

It isn't necessarily the fact that they disapproved that particular color, it is the accumulation of all the other things mentioned above. Needless to say, the HOA here has issues.

They did approve my tree removal in about a week but that was because the tree had roots near the foundation of the house and near the gas line. It makes me question why has my retaining wall request still sits opened 5 months after initiated, especially when I told the HOA president about this last week when he called me about the paint and I also wrote him an email telling him about it this week. Like I said, it seems like too much coincidence.

MichaelH34 (North Carolina)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Does your board have regular meetings?

Rather than rely on their apparent inability to send out updates to requests, go to a board meeting and get your answers from the entire board.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
JayF2, for HUD, the fact that the Board took a number of mis-steps counts for nothing when (1) there is no clear nexus between these mis-steps and your last name sounding Hispanic; and (2) the Board has plausible other reasons to explain the mis-steps. I realize you think there are no other plausiable reasons to explain the mis-steps. But HUD has to protect itself from becoming involved in litigation where the outcome is uncertain. HUD has had to pay its opponents attorney fees in the past, when HUD got it wrong. HUD has a very high standard these days for when it will pursue a complaint. HUD dismisses complaints far far more often than it advances complaints to the next level. (However A HUD dismissal does not preclude an aggrieved party from lawyering up and pursuing a private action via a lawsuit et cetera. The latter happens a lot, in fact.)

About small claims court:
-- Small claims court cases have to involve a sum of money below a certain amount. I take it you would seek $1800 in its entirety. The argument for a small claims action is a bit tricky, IMO. The HOA has not actually taken $1800 from you. The HOA has merely said you need to re-paint. Messy argument.

-- As for attorney fees: What exactly do your covenants say about attorney fees? If you quote what your covenants say on this topic word for word, I could comment more.

-- The Georgia POA statute does not require you to pay the HOA's attorney fees if you take it to court and lose.

-- Absent anything in the covenants or statute that states you must pay the attorney fees of the HOA if the HOA prevails in court, you would not have to pay the HOA's attorney fees.

-- Never believe anyone here who throws out an off-handed assertion like: "You may (or will) have to pay the other side's attorney fees." Such assertsions are worthless. Much of the time for attorney fees (where a lawsuit actually happens), something called "the American rule" prevails. Google and you will see what this rule says. Again, what your covenants say about attorney fees will be key on this subject.

-- Regardless, I think taking the HOA to court over this is dumb. I think the HOA taking you to court over this is dumb. Many folks need to first go through litigation to understand and believe this. Remember that one's attorney will have no where near the drive that one's self has to win "justice." Remember that courts dispense a facade of justice far more than they dispense justice. The courts are backed up with much more important issues than the paint color of your home and your wanting a different outcome based on "principle."
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey Melissa,

I was initially going to paint in early December as the temp wasn't too cold. In February, I told them that I was going to paint in March when the temperatures improved.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey Michael,

Thanks for your suggestion. I don't know how often they have meetings and I know it is an inconvenience for me to attend these meetings. But, I might have to find out when they have the meetings and take your suggestion as these people don't seem to be organized or it could have been last years board members with the issues.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
To give an idea of how Georgia courts think about HOA architectural decisions, google as follows:

"architectural" "association" "approved" site:https://law.justia.com/cases/georgia/court-of-appeals/

This will turn up nine cases involving Georgia HOA architectural committee disputes that the Georgia Appeals Court has treated. The Georgia Supreme Court appears to not have any similar cases.

See all the detail of these cases? See all the attention to exactly what the covenants say? See all the case law references? This represents the ringing of attorneys' cash registers.

Want to punish your HOA? Want to punish yourself? Want to enrich attorneys? File suit over an $1800 paint job.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/27/2022 10:28 AM
To give an idea of how Georgia courts think about HOA architectural decisions, google as follows:

"architectural" "association" "approved" site:https://law.justia.com/cases/georgia/court-of-appeals/

This will turn up nine cases involving Georgia HOA architectural committee disputes that the Georgia Appeals Court has treated. The Georgia Supreme Court appears to not have any similar cases.

See all the detail of these cases? See all the attention to exactly what the covenants say? See all the case law references? This represents the ringing of attorneys' cash registers.

Want to punish your HOA? Want to punish yourself? Want to enrich attorneys? File suit over an $1800 paint job.

Good questions. I say take the $1K, add $900 and repaint.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Jay,

It's good to be informed before you jump into a legal remedy. I'm all for compromise as I stated before. Time, money, emotion all come into the legal picture. I would be asking myself if I really want to go down that path. I am all for a peaceful existence in my home and my neighborhood. It makes life so much easier to take in a sometimes- ugly world.

I'm not dismissing your feelings. You certainly have a right to them. I agree with Augustin that you will have a difficult time proving discrimination with what you have posted. Your last name argument, I feel is a stretch. My maiden name was Jewish and my married name is Amish, and I am neither. Although I hear what you are saying. Certain names do categorize a person. But I think of that more in terms of the Archie Bunker era.

I think taking the $1,000 offered and repainting your home to a color approved by your wife and the HOA Board is something to give serious consideration. Then when you drive up to your home at the end of a long day, you can feel pride. Pride that you averted a legal battle and pride in choosing a house color that met approval.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote from Augustin: "Regardless, I think taking the HOA to court over this is dumb."

I agree. This is another example of something involving relatively little expense that could and still can be resolved fairly quickly.

Instead we have people who are hot under the collar and are allowing their emotions to call the shots, and will end up spending much time and much money to resolve the problem. And over what? Paint colors.

It's nearly always in people's best interest to take a hard look at something, figure out the possible costs of each alternative, and tell their emotions to zip it so that they can choose the least costly of the alternatives. I don't understand why this seems to be so difficult. (Actually, I do. And when I'm tempted to be similarly stupid, I remind myself that being "victorious" isn't going to pay the bills.)

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/27/2022 1:47 PM
Quote from Augustin: "Regardless, I think taking the HOA to court over this is dumb."

I agree. This is another example of something involving relatively little expense that could and still can be resolved fairly quickly.

Instead we have people who are hot under the collar and are allowing their emotions to call the shots, and will end up spending much time and much money to resolve the problem. And over what? Paint colors.

It's nearly always in people's best interest to take a hard look at something, figure out the possible costs of each alternative, and tell their emotions to zip it so that they can choose the least costly of the alternatives. I don't understand why this seems to be so difficult. (Actually, I do. And when I'm tempted to be similarly stupid, I remind myself that being "victorious" isn't going to pay the bills.)


Well said.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey Augustin,

I checked and per the covenants, I would be liable for their reasonable attorney fees.

I can see where some of these cases can start to get very costly. And me personally going up against a well-seasoned attorney in court, will be like David versus Goliath but with no slingshot and no rock. Hypothetically, if they don't hire an attorney and I went head-to-head with the board in court, I like my chances. If I lawyer up, I agree with you and others that this a dumb move. The attorneys will be the ones lining up their pockets with the HOA's and my money. It doesn't make sense over the $800 that they are offering if it is going to cost me $1000's of dollars with no guarantee.

I feel that I am the victim here and it appears that they don't see it that way. I am not the type of person to say, "Thank you sir, may I have another." I don't like taking things lightly when I feel someone is messing with me.

What recourse do I have? These HOA board members volunteered for this position. They should take things seriously especially when it affects others.

How about make them do their duties as board members, having them address the tough issues, and answer questions why they aren't doing their job?

I was thinking of asking them that since there are brick houses that are painted in the community which is in strict violation of the community standards what is their plan regarding these homes? Are they working with those homeowners to remedy the situation? Are they get fines and liens? Some of the HOA members may have painted brick houses, I don't know. I feel as a member of the community that I should be kept abreast of that current situation. Especially, since I am the one that got screwed out of $800 due to their negligence.

Can the board let me know how many requests have been addressed since my retaining wall request from November 2021? If they addressed any which I am sure that they have, why is my request still opened and why did they skip my request?

Also show them my next-door neighbor's (probably the snitch) house so that they can see that his siding paint of his house is extremely faded so what is their plan with this? If they are going to make him re-paint, are they going to have to tell all the other homeowners with faded paint to address the issues including board members. I would have been guilty and included in this group myself before my recent paint job. Do they say something to the neighbor knowing that this may cause a ripple effect over the community and their faded paint? Like, I said making the HOA make tough decisions to see how they plan to address this issue with my neighbor and my valid complaint.

I don't want to snitch on anyone. OK, maybe just my neighbor, the person who probably snitched on me. But I would rather not have any homeowners paint even if it means my neighbor gets a free pass. I don't want any of the brick homeowners to get in any trouble nor do I want these owners to change anything with their house. I am truly a good guy. Maybe a bit petty but a good guy.

But I think that the HOA might be on a power trip and that they need to know the repercussions of their decisions which has nothing to really do with the color. It is more with them admitting the blame and full reimbursement.

I feel that I need to get some more cards stacked in my favor. As they say, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." I am sure if I do the above, any further requests that I have with these board members will not get ignored.

Now any other suggestions of what recourse do I have?

What would anyone in my situation do? Besides take the $1000 that they offer, $800 loss, change the color, and let them keep walking over me.

Thank you for your suggestions and keep them coming. You have all shared valuable insight to this situation.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey John,

Thanks for the advice. If I felt that I screwed up, I would do that. If for any minute, I thought that the color was going to be an issue, I wouldn't have spent a dime on it.

When the HOA president spoke to me. I felt that he thought I just painted the house that color knowingly that they had denied the color. During our discussion, he knew that someone at the HOA dropped the ball by not telling me of the denial last year and was very close to admitting it but stopped himself. He then tried to make it like I was the one at fault. He then spoked to the HOA members a few days later and the conversation may have gone something like, he was at fault also just give him $1000 without them knowing my costs.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hey John,

I agree taking this to court is not the best option but letting it go either is not as it is not just the paint issue. I have another request that has been pending their decision over 5 months and at this point it doesn't appear that it needs approval as 60 days have passed.

I agree that I am hot under the collar, it is more like boiling. My nature is that I don't let people walk over me. I am just wired that way.

So as far as money, if I have to spend a single $1 out of my money, I am going to make sure that they are accountable to their obligations and duties as board members as this is what they signed off on when they took the position. In all my jobs, I always did my best and took pride in what I did, and I expect the same from others.

I am not trying to be mean and hateful. All that I ask is that they be honest with themselves, know that someone or some people at the board screwed up, and pay me my cost which is $1800 that their negligence cost me. Not a dollar more nor a dollar less. Especially, since the money isn't coming straight out of any member's pocket. I think this is a just resolution and I will repaint the house to an approved color. I am compliant with the laws and put my request like one should. But it is the board's lack of response to these requests which is what led to this whole issue.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Jay

You're not going to get a lot of sympathize from folks on this site. They are current or former board members, wanna be lawyers who try and cite case law until you're blue in the face and will use your money to prove they are right. Their opinion will be to tell you to man-up, take their offering and sin no more. Do any of these clowns have any idea or list of what the proper paint colors or is it fly by the seat of your pants authority.

JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/27/2022 7:41 PM
Jay

You're not going to get a lot of sympathize from folks on this site. They are current or former board members, wanna be lawyers who try and cite case law until you're blue in the face and will use your money to prove they are right. Their opinion will be to tell you to man-up, take their offering and sin no more. Do any of these clowns have any idea or list of what the proper paint colors or is it fly by the seat of your pants authority.


Hey Max,

LOL!!! You call it like it is. I love it! Thanks for your insight. It is flight by the seat of your pants authority.

Max, if you were in my shoes what would you do? It seems that you don't take any crap and call it like it is.

I am just trying to get some different opinions as I, the victim, obviously see things differently. I don't want to be too irrational but at the same time, I don't want to be screwed.

When the HOA president told me that if it were him that he would have followed up. I thought that I did by calling the former HOA president and telling him what was the verdict regarding my color was? His reply, "Should be fine as I will vote for it and I just need to get two more members out of the other four to agree. If there is any problem, I will let you know." So it is my fault for following up and taking his word if there was a problem, he would let me know. It is my fault that when they denied it they never notified me. It was might fault that they ignored my comment in February that I was going to be painting in March.

Going the legal route is not an option due to the financial costs that I will end up paying as their lawyer will twist their errors in a convoluted way to make me the bad guy. Then I am responsible for their legal fees.

If I don't get a 100% reimbursement, I will make sure that the HOA's time here at the board is a job and they will be held accountable. This won't be a cake walk. Some may say a living hell, but I just say doing their job.

If I were the board, it is an easy decision. Just admit that they made a mistake by not notifying me of the denial. Offer to pay me a 100% of my paint cost up to this point. And tell me that I have to change the color which I am willing to do. It is that simple. I repaint a different color and go back to my cocoon and all is good. But if they want to play games, they messed with the wrong guy as I will not let this go.

Max, I know that I won't get any sympathy here but what is right is right. The board will need to be held accountable.

Hopefully, some of the wonderful people at this site can have some suggestions of what I can do other take the $1000, repaint, and hide under my sheets? What can I say to the board to get my full reimbursement which is $800 more than their initial offer. Note, they did not know my costs when they made their initial offer. I did let the HOA president know and he was going back to the board

I have received some great advice so far. And I like the fact that not everyone agrees with me. As it gives me a different perspective.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/27/2022 7:41 PM
Jay

You're not going to get a lot of sympathize from folks on this site. They are current or former board members, wanna be lawyers who try and cite case law until you're blue in the face and will use your money to prove they are right. Their opinion will be to tell you to man-up, take their offering and sin no more. Do any of these clowns have any idea or list of what the proper paint colors or is it fly by the seat of your pants authority.


Hey Max,

LOL!!! You call it like it is. I love it! Thanks for your insight. It is flight by the seat of your pants authority.

Max, if you were in my shoes what would you do? It seems that you don't take any crap and call it like it is.

I am just trying to get some different opinions as I, the victim, obviously see things differently. I don't want to be too irrational but at the same time, I don't want to be screwed.

When the HOA president told me that if it were him that he would have followed up. I thought that I did by calling the former HOA president and telling him what was the verdict regarding my color was? His reply, "Should be fine as I will vote for it and I just need to get two more members out of the other four to agree. If there is any problem, I will let you know." So it is my fault for following up and taking his word if there was a problem, he would let me know. It is my fault that when they denied it they never notified me. It was might fault that they ignored my comment in February that I was going to be painting in March.

Going the legal route is not an option due to the financial costs that I will end up paying as their lawyer will twist their errors in a convoluted way to make me the bad guy. Then I am responsible for their legal fees.

If I don't get a 100% reimbursement, I will make sure that the HOA's time here at the board is a job and they will be held accountable. This won't be a cake walk. Some may say a living hell, but I just say doing their job.

If I were the board, it is an easy decision. Just admit that they made a mistake by not notifying me of the denial. Offer to pay me a 100% of my paint cost up to this point. And tell me that I have to change the color which I am willing to do. It is that simple. I repaint a different color and go back to my cocoon and all is good. But if they want to play games, they messed with the wrong guy as I will not let this go.

Max, I know that I won't get any sympathy here but what is right is right. The board will need to be held accountable.

Hopefully, some of the wonderful people at this site can have some suggestions of what I can do other take the $1000, repaint, and hide under my sheets? What can I say to the board to get my full reimbursement which is $800 more than their initial offer. Note, they did not know my costs when they made their initial offer. I did let the HOA president know and he was going back to the board

I have received some great advice so far. And I like the fact that not everyone agrees with me. As it gives me a different perspective.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/27/2022 7:41 PM
Jay

You're not going to get a lot of sympathize from folks on this site. They are current or former board members, wanna be lawyers who try and cite case law until you're blue in the face and will use your money to prove they are right. Their opinion will be to tell you to man-up, take their offering and sin no more. Do any of these clowns have any idea or list of what the proper paint colors or is it fly by the seat of your pants authority.


Hey Max,

LOL!!! You call it like it is. I love it! Thanks for your insight. It is flight by the seat of your pants authority.

Max, if you were in my shoes what would you do? It seems that you don't take any crap and call it like it is.

I am just trying to get some different opinions as I, the victim, obviously see things differently. I don't want to be too irrational but at the same time, I don't want to be screwed.

When the HOA president told me that if it were him that he would have followed up. I thought that I did by calling the former HOA president and telling him what was the verdict regarding my color was? His reply, "Should be fine as I will vote for it and I just need to get two more members out of the other four to agree. If there is any problem, I will let you know." So it is my fault for following up and taking his word if there was a problem, he would let me know. It is my fault that when they denied it they never notified me. It was might fault that they ignored my comment in February that I was going to be painting in March.

Going the legal route is not an option due to the financial costs that I will end up paying as their lawyer will twist their errors in a convoluted way to make me the bad guy. Then I am responsible for their legal fees.

If I don't get a 100% reimbursement, I will make sure that the HOA's time here at the board is a job and they will be held accountable. This won't be a cake walk. Some may say a living hell, but I just say doing their job.

If I were the board, it is an easy decision. Just admit that they made a mistake by not notifying me of the denial. Offer to pay me a 100% of my paint cost up to this point. And tell me that I have to change the color which I am willing to do. It is that simple. I repaint a different color and go back to my cocoon and all is good. But if they want to play games, they messed with the wrong guy as I will not let this go.

Max, I know that I won't get any sympathy here but what is right is right. The board will need to be held accountable.

Hopefully, some of the wonderful people at this site can have some suggestions of what I can do other take the $1000, repaint, and hide under my sheets? What can I say to the board to get my full reimbursement which is $800 more than their initial offer. Note, they did not know my costs when they made their initial offer. I did let the HOA president know and he was going back to the board

I have received some great advice so far. And I like the fact that not everyone agrees with me. As it gives me a different perspective.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/27/2022 7:03 PM
How about make them do their duties as board members, having them address the tough issues, and answer questions why they aren't doing their job?
...
What would anyone in my situation do? Besides take the $1000 that they offer, $800 loss, change the color, and let them keep walking over me.
You are right: In a perfect world, one should not be walked all over.

This board's conduct was poor. This board's communications with you have been poor. Anyone who is female, a minority, or disabled may very well be right in wondering if this is because of his/her gender; race; or disability. It can makes a person's blood boil. It does not stop. I think situations like this can take a mighty toll on one's sense of self-worth.

Can you write down what it is you want and what you are willing to sacrifice to get what you want?

From where I am sitting, here are the reasons to let the board keep blundering:

-- The board has the bulk of the power and resources here. This includes having an attorney at their disposal and possibly being perfectly happy making the membership pay the attorney to go after you. The Board can make your life difficult.

-- You yourself do not want to serve on the board. Serving on the board includes the headache of getting the other directors to actually read the covenants; having to consult the HOA attorney like all the time; moving at a snail's pace on nearly all decisions; and an enormous time commitment. Wouldn't you rather be paid, at a real job, then give your time away?

-- I continue to maintain your hands are not entirely clean here. E.g. A verbal approval by one director (the President) is not what the bylaws and covenants allow. You're supposed to know this. This is on you. From the covenants, you're also supposed to know that harmony of exteriors of homes is required.

Reasons to not put up with these mis-steps and/or poor Board behavior:

-- Pride. If you want to stand up for yourself (which would be understandable, given everything), go ahead and prepare a short, concise letter to the board giving the timeline of events; citing the covenant on 60 days; and asking the HOA to foot the entire bill for the re-painting of your home . (Re the 60 days, I am assuming the covenant does not say anything else. People come here and nearly always present their situation with some bias.) If you want, go ahead and speak of what other owners have done architecturally and inconsistencies in enforcement. But if you do the latter, then I would hope you intend to run for the board at the next election. You do not think much of this board's character. Nor do I. But I also do not think much of the character of someone who criticizes but is not willing to undertake all the work of a board member him- or herself.

-- Not wanting to pay $800 or so because of the Board's incompetence. I do not like giving money away when I was not the one who made the bulk of the mistakes.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayF2 on 03/27/2022 10:31 PM
When the HOA president told me that if it were him that he would have followed up. I thought that I did by calling the former HOA president and telling him what was the verdict regarding my color was? His reply, "Should be fine as I will vote for it and I just need to get two more members out of the other four to agree. If there is any problem, I will let you know." So it is my fault for following up and taking his word if there was a problem, he would let me know.
Yes it is. You need to own this stupendous blunder on your part. You are asking the board to abide by the covenants and bylaws. You need to abide by the covenants and bylaws and not be personally calling anyone connecting to the board and just assuming that they speak to the board. I know at the time you contacted the President, you thought you were doing nothing wrong. Your mistake was an honest one but also one based in ignorance. You should have used proper channels to contact the entire board. You should have waited for written approval.

Aside: One reason owners sometimes call individual directors is to twist the director's arm. No director likes telling an owner "no, I do not approve of what you want." Calling a director personally is an unacceptable, unethical tactic in my opinion.

I appreciate your candor here. But on this count, I think you are the one who made a gross mis-step.

When everyone's hands are dirty, compromise is something to consider.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/28/2022 3:35 AM
You need to abide by the covenants and bylaws and not be personally calling anyone connecting to the board and just assuming that they speak to the board.
Post-o. The above should have been:

You need to abide by the covenants and bylaws and not be personally calling anyone connected to the board and just assuming that the one director or officer speaks for the entire board.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
No one seems to be addressing the core of the issue.

The HOA says the paint request was denied, but there was a failure to communicate that to the homeowner. Per CCR's, the clock is ticking to communicate a decision to the Homeowner, otherwise its automatically approved. So just ask the HOA to please produce the minutes and records showing the ACC request was denied. It's not that complicated. Actions without meetings should be recorded as well.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 03/28/2022 7:40 AM
ask the HOA to please produce the minutes and records showing the ACC request was denied.
To me it's obvious that the Board admits it failed to communicate any denial within the required timeframe. Why else would the board be offering to pay $1000 to fix the paint color?
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/28/2022 8:00 AM
Posted By AdamL1 on 03/28/2022 7:40 AM
ask the HOA to please produce the minutes and records showing the ACC request was denied.
To me it's obvious that the Board admits it failed to communicate any denial within the required timeframe. Why else would the board be offering to pay $1000 to fix the paint color?

agreed. so it seems the Homeowner is in the right and entitled to keep their paint color, or negotiate/accept the offer to repaint back to original color.
JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/28/2022 2:48 AM
Posted By JayF2 on 03/27/2022 7:03 PM
How about make them do their duties as board members, having them address the tough issues, and answer questions why they aren't doing their job?
...

-- Can you write down what it is you want and what you are willing to sacrifice to get what you want?

-- You yourself do not want to serve on the board. Serving on the board includes the headache of getting the other directors to actually read the covenants; having to consult the HOA attorney like all the time; moving at a snail's pace on nearly all decisions; and an enormous time commitment. Wouldn't you rather be paid, at a real job, then give your time away?

-- I continue to maintain your hands are not entirely clean here. E.g. A verbal approval by one director (the President) is not what the bylaws and covenants allow. You're supposed to know this. This is on you. From the covenants, you're also supposed to know that harmony of exteriors of homes is required.

Reasons to not put up with these mis-steps and/or poor Board behavior:

-- Pride. If you want to stand up for yourself (which would be understandable, given everything), go ahead and prepare a short, concise letter to the board giving the timeline of events; citing the covenant on 60 days; and asking the HOA to foot the entire bill for the re-painting of your home . (Re the 60 days, I am assuming the covenant does not say anything else. People come here and nearly always present their situation with some bias.) If you want, go ahead and speak of what other owners have done architecturally and inconsistencies in enforcement. But if you do the latter, then I would hope you intend to run for the board at the next election. You do not think much of this board's character. Nor do I. But I also do not think much of the character of someone who criticizes but is not willing to undertake all the work of a board member him- or herself.

-- Not wanting to pay $800 or so because of the Board's incompetence. I do not like giving money away when I was not the one who made the bulk of the mistakes.

Hey Augustin,

Here are my responses to some of your questions and points:

I want them to either let the color stay or reimburse me $1800 which is my cost up to that point.

As far as what I am willing to do is making them accountable to uphold the community standards which is what they are supposed to do. If it means making them start telling homeowners to upkeep their paint as they are supposed to and telling homeowners with painted brick houses that they need to remove the paint or start placing fines. They will make tons of enemies. Have them address an open request and implement a new system where they have to respond online on the actual request so that everything is verifiable and the board is held accountable. Have them in their meetings give actual numbers of open requests and how many were closed in the month. I don't know these are just some thoughts off the seat of my pants. All this HOA is new to me. I am sure that some members of this site will have some more ideas that they can offer.

This is the first time that I bought a house in a HOA. I have been here for 8 years and never bothered to read the standards or covenants. I do things by the book as they recommend. But this seems like communism. Abide by my interpretation of the standards or you will be punished. Take this to court and in the end you will lose and you will have to pay lots of money. Take what we offer and say thank you even though we screwed up.

The former HOA president called me when I initially put my request in to clarify the color. I uploaded it in the request as he had told me. About 10 days later, I called him to see if they had approved the color. I did not try to sway him and knew that he doesn't have the authority to approve it on his own. He did not say that it was approved.
But when he said, "... I don't think it will be a problem, but if it is I will let you know." I took him for his word. So, I am gullible and maybe I was expecting too much from this board. I would assume any HOA board or person with commonsense who denies a paint color for whatever reason that they should have the decency to notify the homeowner and let them know that it was denied so that the homeowner can choose a different color. It really isn't very much to ask. Months later when the homeowner who thinks his color was approved mentions to the board that he will be painting in a month that someone cross references the request or at the very least say you need to address that with the initial request or start a new one. Not ignore the statement like it never existed. I don't think that I was asking for too much. But then for them to turn it around on me puts the cherry on top. This HOA seems like communism any way that you slice it.

As far as your suggestion of writing a short concise letter to the board with what you mentions sounds like a great idea which I will start working on today.

As far as running for HOA board, I don't want to be part of the board. I know that work and responsibility comes with the position and it is not something that I am willing to commit to. Hence, why I didn't run for the board. But if someone chooses to be on the board, they should know that accountability and work is required and they shouldn't get a free pass as they volunteered for the position. Like I mentioned on a prior post, I take pride and work hard on whatever I do and I expect others to do the same.

JayF2 (Georgia)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/28/2022 3:35 AM
Posted By JayF2 on 03/27/2022 10:31 PM
When the HOA president told me that if it were him that he would have followed up. I thought that I did by calling the former HOA president and telling him what was the verdict regarding my color was? His reply, "Should be fine as I will vote for it and I just need to get two more members out of the other four to agree. If there is any problem, I will let you know." So it is my fault for following up and taking his word if there was a problem, he would let me know.
Yes it is. You need to own this stupendous blunder on your part. You are asking the board to abide by the covenants and bylaws. You need to abide by the covenants and bylaws and not be personally calling anyone connecting to the board and just assuming that they speak to the board. I know at the time you contacted the President, you thought you were doing nothing wrong. Your mistake was an honest one but also one based in ignorance. You should have used proper channels to contact the entire board. You should have waited for written approval.

Aside: One reason owners sometimes call individual directors is to twist the director's arm. No director likes telling an owner "no, I do not approve of what you want." Calling a director personally is an unacceptable, unethical tactic in my opinion.

I appreciate your candor here. But on this count, I think you are the one who made a gross mis-step.

When everyone's hands are dirty, compromise is something to consider.

I admit, I had no idea how the HOA worked and voted.

Regarding me calling the HOA president direct tell me what you think.
-- The board could have contacted me to clarify my color by the board's email or through the request online but it was the HOA president that called me for this information. So, I think that it was reasonable to call the HOA president 10 days after his clarification request to see what the board decided on. That is the media that he decided to communicate with me. So I disagree with me calling him directly that it was unacceptable or an unethical tatic. If it had been denied, just tell me, I have tough skin and no money invested at that point. But I am sure that they had not voted yet when I spoke to him.

So now that you know the facts do you still think that I am the one who made a gross mis-step?

I am not sure how this HOA compares to others as this is the only one that I know.

So do you think still think that I made the gross mis-step when
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I guess I'm one of those clowns that Max refers to because I'm a board president and I deal with architectural decisions all the time.

All I can offer you is my experiences based on many situations such as yours. And my question to you is - if the board is acting as the ACC and making the decisions, they have to do that at a board meeting or a separate ACC meeting. There have to be minutes of those meetings. Most likely they didn't have casual phone conversation and say "let's deny Jay because we just don't like the color" and not document anything. I know it doesn't help your case if there actually is something in writing, but if you are contemplating suing your association over this then they are going to hold up that piece of paper as evidence. So you might want to be prepared and see if it really exists in writing.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I understand how you feel about the former president’s not being clear as to what he was going to do, but once again – grown people trust but verify (especially if you live in an HOA!) Grown people also get stuff in writing – it can prevent confusion like this (something the board should already know to do – maybe that’s why the former president is no longer in the job!).

Then again, the fact that you asked for approval in the first place should have made it clear that it would be a good idea to get all of this in writing for your records. Don’t you get invoices, contracts, receipts, etc. on other stuff and services you buy?

This isn’t to suggest the board’s right – they DID drop the ball and should be adult enough to admit it, but instead seem to be dragging this out because “we are the board and therefore we are.” That said, what do you really want at this point – a pound of flesh or to finish painting your house, preferably in the color you selected? If it’s the latter, focus on that and pick up your feelings. Or take the $1000 and fix the color (if you do that, do yourself a favor and get something in writing stating the issue is hereby resolved).

Oh, and go to the next board meeting and point out you’re STILL waiting for a decision on your other request and it’s been 5 months now – can you expect a written decision within the next 15 days or not? And if not, why not?

On another note, I’m not surprised you haven’t read the CCRs until now. Due to the pandemic and people spending more time at home, I suspect the last two years have been a revelation (“what is this CCR crap – I can do whatever I want with MY house! Or “I don’t see where my fees are going – the neighborhood’s going to pot”) However this ends, you may want to sit down one day and take a good look at them – there may be some other things you need to be aware of after 8 years.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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