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TamaraR1 (Georgia)
Posts: 5
Posted:
I know there are many differences in the governing documents of HOA’s. I have been on the board for a while now but we have not yet had a vote on dues increases during my tenure.

We now have a need for a dues increase and possibly a special assessment substantial enough to require a vote of the homeowners. Our governing documents say we have to meet a 60% quorum at the first meeting in or to have a legal vote (or a 30% quorum at the subsequent meeting if the quorum in the previous meeting was not reached). But even if the quorum is reached, the motion only passes if you have a 2/3 minimum vote.

So let’s say we meet the quorum and do not get enough votes. So that’s it? How are HOA’S supposed to raise the necessary funds to properly run the community if the homeowners can just vote “no”?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
By putting the word out and creating an atmosphere of trust when it comes to finances. Not easy things. Need to send out the message that the HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members. If you all want or need something, that is going to require the quorum or majority vote to raise.

Be open with the budget/finances as possibly can be. Let people see the gap and why can't meet the needs/wants. Explain that a HOA can ONLY raise funds by two methods. 1. Dues. 2. Special assessment. Fines or yard sales are NOT options. Plus it costs money and time to collect from those who don't pay. Let them know the cost of filing a lien as they are not "free".

I find the more open and honest you are the more likely people will vote for what they need or want. The more it seems "hidden" and rules not understood, less chance of it passing. Always reference your documents when discussing the issue. When you send out notices why and what is needed, quote them.

Former HOA President
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Excellent question. Nearly everyone who posts on this website has or is wrestling with this question. Sadly, many people are short sighted and push off problems as long as possible until they can't - ask the former residents of Surfside how that turned out. And there have been other incidents, although not as dramatic as that.

Regarding your documents however, are you sure you aren't quoting the requires for a special assessment vote? Usually, you do need a significant number to authorize that. That"s not the same as an increase in assessments which you pay every month (or quarter or year) Assessments are a legal obligations whereas dues are usually voluntary, like a club membership.

Go through the rest of your documents to look at the board's powers. Typically, the board can increase assessments without a homeowner vote, unless the proposed increase exceeds a certain percentage? For example, our board can increase them up to 5% from the current year's assessment, but anything higher has to be approved by homeowners. As you can imagine, that's not very much and our community's reserves are so low that at this year's "annual meeting," the president announced the assessments will be increased every year at 5% for the foreseeable future. This was after we had a presentation by our reserve study specialist on what the community needs are expected to be and how far behind we currently are.
I put "annual meeting" in quotes because we were two people shy of a quorum. Since nothing official could happen and the current board members stay on until they resign or are voted out, they went ahead with the agenda and the presentation.

If the board can increase assessments up to a certain point without a homeowner vote, do it. If the documents really require that percentage, you'll need to educate your community in a big way - which you should already be doing. Show them the numbers and tell them the truth as to what's needed along with any estimates you've received on repairs and replacement costs. If you have a recent reserve study, add that to the information campaign. Better yet, ask the reserve specialist if he or she could attend a special homeowner meeting to provide information on the study and homeowners can ask questions.

From there, the homeowners can make an informed decision. if avoiding a special assessment is what they want, they'll have to accept the assessment increases - and that may be an annual act. Getting a loan won't help - it'll drive up costs because you still have to pay monthly routing expenses and the loan payments, plus fund reserves. Worse case scenario - you have to increase assessments, and issue a special assessment (which must be paid in addition to the regular assessments) AND get a loan.

If homeowners have a better idea, they need to bring it up and explain why it's a better option (who knows, they may be right). If homeowners still don't want to pay, perhaps they should vote to turn certain association responsibilities over to the homeowners and then everyone can be responsible for services on their own property, like lawn care. Too bad it still may put off the inevitable.

Good luck in whatever you do - you may be in for a rough ride.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
I made a comment on a previous thread in regard to a vote required for assessment increase, and Augustin had a great response that required me to dig further into my documents. Turns out that this vote requirement was a figment of my imagination . . . there was no requirement for a vote, only a requirement that the budget be presented to the homeowners a number of weeks/months before it took effect and if sufficient homeowners "disapproved" the budget, then it needed to be refigured and represented. So that presented budget could realistically indicate the same assessment as previous year or an increase or decrease.

I say all that to say . . . carefully double-check your docs and your HOA State laws for the actual requirements surrounding an increased/changed annual assessment. Perhaps come back and post verbatim here what the docs actually say. Then refigure your strategy based on that.

Special Assessment is likely different though.

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ND on 03/24/2022 5:02 AM
I made a comment on a previous thread in regard to a vote required for assessment increase, and Augustin had a great response that required me to dig further into my documents. Turns out that this vote requirement was a figment of my imagination . . . there was no requirement for a vote, only a requirement that the budget be presented to the homeowners a number of weeks/months before it took effect and if sufficient homeowners "disapproved" the budget, then it needed to be refigured and represented. So that presented budget could realistically indicate the same assessment as previous year or an increase or decrease.

I say all that to say . . . carefully double-check your docs and your HOA State laws for the actual requirements surrounding an increased/changed annual assessment. Perhaps come back and post verbatim here what the docs actually say. Then refigure your strategy based on that.

Special Assessment is likely different though.


We had our attorney review our GD's for a Special Assessment TO FUND OUR RESERVE ACCOUNT. Our Board voted dues increases are very straight forward. No more than CPI of previous year. The legalize contained in a Special Assessment section was very confusing. It cost us less than $500.00 for him to do this. This may be a good option for you.

Also inquire about adjourning the meeting until you can get the votes needed to pass.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
As was mentioned, there are two issues, one a dues increase and then a special assessment. Actually, maybe three, a new board. I would curious as to how deep a hole you're in as you will need to explain this to the membership.

The board can propose dues increases on their own with a member vote. It can be as low as a CPI or as high as 20% or greater. The members can at times vote to rescind the increase. A special assessment is a different beast altogether. If you require 67% yes votes to pass a special assessment, why would you even think about quorum. It would only matter if the requirement was a % of quorum.

The bigger question is, the OP stated they were on their board for "quite some time" and the board never voted to increase the dues. Why is it now the mess is thrown in the owners face? Why wasn't the board doing their part?
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Per an earlier thread by the OP, this is a Georgia townhome HOA community.

TamaraR1, would you please confirm this community is not subject to the Georgia Condo Act?

Quote:
Posted By TamaraR1 on 03/23/2022 11:42 PM
We now have a need for a dues increase and possibly a special assessment substantial enough to require a vote of the homeowners. Our governing documents say we have to meet a 60% quorum at the first meeting in or to have a legal vote (or a 30% quorum at the subsequent meeting if the quorum in the previous meeting was not reached). But even if the quorum is reached, the motion only passes if you have a 2/3 minimum vote.
Would you please quote verbatim what your covenants and bylaws say about dues increases, special assessments, and the powers of the Board?

So far I see nothing helpful in the Georgia POA Act, as given here:
http://gaddislanier.com/wp-content/uploads/Georgia-Property-Owners-Assoc-Act.pdf

When the governing documents set the bar high for a special assessment, I think the purpose is to encourage boards to stay on top of reserve studies and reserve funding each and every year. Else their hands may be tied the way the OP so far describes.

I realize this does not help when prior boards neglected funding or maybe a big emergency arises.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TamaraR1 on 03/23/2022 11:42 PM

So let’s say we meet the quorum and do not get enough votes. So that’s it? How are HOA’S supposed to raise the necessary funds to properly run the community if the homeowners can just vote “no”?

That's kind of the point of living in a shared-cost community...if the majority of the community doesn't want something, then that's it. If they don't want to pay for X Y Z, and vote explicitly not to fund X Y Z, then the masses have spoken.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858
Posted:
Melissas' comment of building trust is vital. All Boards should make this a priority and do all that is necessary to accomplish this goal. Unfortunately, as this website displays frequently either individual Board members or the whole Board plays a secretive game with the owners.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Tam

I suggest you take a closer read/look at your Covenants.

Our BOD can raise the Yearly Assessment as much as it wants to, only once a year. The process is to submit the upcoming year's budget, showing the dues increase, to owners on or before 12/01 and it become effective 01/01.

Be sure you have you % of owners approving a Special Assessment correct. It it typically a % OF ALL OWNERS, not just at a meeting. Typically at least 2/3rds or more OF ALL OWNERS.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/24/2022 10:48 AM
Tam

I suggest you take a closer read/look at your Covenants.

Our BOD can raise the Yearly Assessment as much as it wants to, only once a year. The process is to submit the upcoming year's budget, showing the dues increase, to owners on or before 12/01 and it become effective 01/01.

Be sure you have you % of owners approving a Special Assessment correct. It it typically a % OF ALL OWNERS, not just at a meeting. Typically at least 2/3rds or more OF ALL OWNERS.

In California, it a majority of a quorum, which for passage is a majority of members, even if the governing documents removed quorum.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
TamaraR1,

My previous HOA was faced with a similar predicament because previous BOD's kept the assessments low and when major repairs were needed, they didn't have the money to pay for them. It became somewhat of an emergency situation.

What they did was borrow some money from a couple of the wealthier homeowners (not me). They called a special assessment meeting and members in attendance voted on a special assessment of $700 per home. The governing docs only require a majority of those homeowners in attendance to approve or disapprove a special assessment. I don't know how that would work for your Association. But once the $700 was collected from each owner, the money was paid back to the lender homeowners. Believe it or not all of the homeowners ponied up.

At the time, I thought it was kind of a screwy way of handling the situation but I did vote yes on the special assessment. They also explained the necessity of the special assessment. Our homes are all connected to an Association owned sanitary sewer so having it running properly is paramount for the owners living in the community fulltime. It saved us all from having to rent port-a-potties!!

That's probably not feasible in most communities because of your governing docs but it worked for ours. But sometimes you have to get creative.

After that, the assessments were raised to avoid a future problem and the BOD raised the fee to new owners tapping into the sewer to $10,000. I was opposed to that amount but you might consider doing a maintenance fee of some sort to new owners. I have read here that some HOA's do that. But keep it reasonable based on a percentage of your regular assessments. There are many ways you could calculate that or what you call it. I have heard it called an initiation fee, a buy-in fee, or a reserve funding fee.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.

Good info. It may be one way for Tamara's HOA to collect some money without seeking it from the current members. But that will need to be addressed at some point. The question is if it is allowable under Tamara's governing docs, and it is dependent on new owners buying into the community. That could be risky in the long term. And they may already be charging that fee. It may be something for her Board to consider if possible.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.

Personally I am in favor of such.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.

I would approve as long it is coming from the seller, not the buyer.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I'd LOVE to see that in my community - next time I attend a board meeting, I'll suggest it. I'm also sure our treasurer (also a realtor) might squawk at this - anyone got a snappy comeback besides everything else that's been mentioned regarding the importance of reserves?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 03/24/2022 2:10 PM
I'd LOVE to see that in my community - next time I attend a board meeting, I'll suggest it. I'm also sure our treasurer (also a realtor) might squawk at this
Assuming the governing documents say nothing about such a "capital improvement fee," she/he should squawk at this.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 03/24/2022 2:10 PM
I'd LOVE to see that in my community - next time I attend a board meeting, I'll suggest it. I'm also sure our treasurer (also a realtor) might squawk at this - anyone got a snappy comeback besides everything else that's been mentioned regarding the importance of reserves?

When we re-wrote our governing docs we put this in. I was expecting some blow back but very few people complained about it. Like everything else that we changed we spent a lot of time educating owners on what was new in the docs and why the change was needed and how it would benefit them. Transparency and education is the key.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 2:17 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 03/24/2022 2:10 PM
I'd LOVE to see that in my community - next time I attend a board meeting, I'll suggest it. I'm also sure our treasurer (also a realtor) might squawk at this - anyone got a snappy comeback besides everything else that's been mentioned regarding the importance of reserves?


When we re-wrote our governing docs we put this in. I was expecting some blow back but very few people complained about it. Like everything else that we changed we spent a lot of time educating owners on what was new in the docs and why the change was needed and how it would benefit them. Transparency and education is the key.

Who pays the fee?
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 2:44 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 2:17 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 03/24/2022 2:10 PM
I'd LOVE to see that in my community - next time I attend a board meeting, I'll suggest it. I'm also sure our treasurer (also a realtor) might squawk at this - anyone got a snappy comeback besides everything else that's been mentioned regarding the importance of reserves?


When we re-wrote our governing docs we put this in. I was expecting some blow back but very few people complained about it. Like everything else that we changed we spent a lot of time educating owners on what was new in the docs and why the change was needed and how it would benefit them. Transparency and education is the key.


Who pays the fee?

The buyer. However, I would guess a seller could agree to pay it since the HOA doesn't see the closing papers???
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 2:09 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.


I would approve as long it is coming from the seller, not the buyer.

It becomes a negotiable point in a sale.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 2:09 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.


I would approve as long it is coming from the seller, not the buyer.

All I know is that this has been in effect for a year and condo's are selling like hot cakes despite this additional fee. I just sold mine and the buyer didn't flinch when I made him aware of the fee. As long as the funds end up in the Reserve's it really doesn't matter to me who pays.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 3:21 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 2:09 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.


I would approve as long it is coming from the seller, not the buyer.


All I know is that this has been in effect for a year and condo's are selling like hot cakes despite this additional fee. I just sold mine and the buyer didn't flinch when I made him aware of the fee. As long as the funds end up in the Reserve's it really doesn't matter to me who pays.

And this provision is in your CCRs?
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 2:09 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.


I would approve as long it is coming from the seller, not the buyer.

I am not opposed to the buyer paying the fee but it depends on how much the fee is. Home prices have risen so much in the last year that it would add another expense on to the buyer. I don't claim to know what would be a fair way to calculate that fee. Perhaps one years' assessments regardless of what month the buyer moves into the community. My annual assessments were set at $500. But I live in the Midwest where real estate prices are lower compared to the coastal states. I also realize that annual assessments can be set much higher than mine were based on location and what amenities the community offers.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 3:26 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 3:21 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 2:09 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 1:01 PM
BancsS, we call it a Capital Improvement Fee and it goes directly into the Reserve Funds. The fee is .5% of the sales price.


I would approve as long it is coming from the seller, not the buyer.


All I know is that this has been in effect for a year and condo's are selling like hot cakes despite this additional fee. I just sold mine and the buyer didn't flinch when I made him aware of the fee. As long as the funds end up in the Reserve's it really doesn't matter to me who pays.


And this provision is in your CCRs?

Yes:

E. Repairs & Replacement Reserve. An adequate reserve fund for the periodic maintenance, repair and replacement of the common elements must be established and must be funded by regular monthly payments rather than by special assessments. Upon the purchase or transfer of ownership of a Residence, each Residence owner shall deposit with the managing agent of the property, or as may be otherwise directed by the Board, an amount equal to an amount equal to one half of one percent (0.5Assessment for Maintenance%) of the purchase price of such Residence owner’s unit. Such amount shall be held, together with the amounts similarly deposited by the other unit owners, as a contingency reserve and used exclusively for purposes outlined in this document. To the extent that the said reserve fund may be depleted, or in the judgment of the board may be adequate, the board may increase the same by an assessment to the members in the proportion of their ownership interest in the Common Elements. The said reserve fund and other funds on hand from time to time shall not be refunded to a unit owner in the event he sells his unit.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I have managed over 200 properties in 14 years and not one had that clause in their CCRs. Now I do know they exist as I have seen them in other states. I feel it should be the seller, not th buyer paying them, call it deferred maintenance.

In the case of the OP, they haven't voted on a dues increase for the number of years she has been on the Board, which, has been some time. Let's say for argument sake, they never had a increase and the reserves are next to nothing. The membership approves a Capital Improvement Fees, but only after they sell, and oh, BTW, we will stick it to the newbies coming in. Let's say the property 20 years ago sold for $100K, now selling for $500K. New buyer is on hook for $25K upfront, while the oldies, but goldies, have no responsibility whatsoever. I will go out on a limb and say it got....100% support, without having to create a raffle.

Personally, I wouldn't be buying into a sham like that.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 3:43 PM
E. Repairs & Replacement Reserve. An adequate reserve fund for the periodic maintenance, repair and replacement of the common elements must be established and must be funded by regular monthly payments rather than by special assessments. Upon the purchase or transfer of ownership of a Residence, each Residence owner shall deposit with the managing agent of the property, or as may be otherwise directed by the Board, an amount equal to an amount equal to one half of one percent (0.5Assessment for Maintenance%) of the purchase price of such Residence owner’s unit. Such amount shall be held, together with the amounts similarly deposited by the other unit owners, as a contingency reserve and used exclusively for purposes outlined in this document. To the extent that the said reserve fund may be depleted, or in the judgment of the board may be adequate, the board may increase the same by an assessment to the members in the proportion of their ownership interest in the Common Elements. The said reserve fund and other funds on hand from time to time shall not be refunded to a unit owner in the event he sells his unit.

Is there a definition for "contingency reserve" in the governing documents?

The wording above is a bit peculiar to me.

I am sure MaxB4 meant that a property selling for $500,000 today at JohnT38's COA would put the buyer on the hook for $2500 (not $25,000) once the buyer took ownership.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 3:44 PM
I have managed over 200 properties in 14 years and not one had that clause in their CCRs. Now I do know they exist as I have seen them in other states. I feel it should be the seller, not th buyer paying them, call it deferred maintenance.

In the case of the OP, they haven't voted on a dues increase for the number of years she has been on the Board, which, has been some time. Let's say for argument sake, they never had a increase and the reserves are next to nothing. The membership approves a Capital Improvement Fees, but only after they sell, and oh, BTW, we will stick it to the newbies coming in. Let's say the property 20 years ago sold for $100K, now selling for $500K. New buyer is on hook for $25K upfront, while the oldies, but goldies, have no responsibility whatsoever. I will go out on a limb and say it got....100% support, without having to create a raffle.

Personally, I wouldn't be buying into a sham like that.

It would be $2500 and not $25,000. I hear you Max and understand your reasoning. However I see it as a safety net. We all know that condos are notorious for not adequately funding their Reserves. The end result is poor maintenance and owners getting knocked up with periodic special assessments to cover something that should have been funded. As a buyer I would gladly pay this fee if I could review the HOA budget and see that they were not ignoring reserves and that my condo would be taken care of without the fear that I would get an unexpected assessment for something like roofs or roads. There are exceptions but for the most part special assessment's shouldn't happen and I see it as a result of poor management and budgeting.

I really do understand your reluctance. We thought long and hard about this subject before we moved forward and included it in the new docs. I don't regret it. The great thing is that buyers are free to say "no way" and look elsewhere. As I stated before it has had no impact on sales and our condos continue to see in a matter of days.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I expect nearly all buyers finance the fee. On the hypothetical $500,000 house at JohnT38's HOA/COA, with the buyer putting down $100,000, the $2500 amortized over 30 years is around $13 extra per month. This is why it is not a big deal to the buyer.

In hot markets it sure helps shore up reserves.

How this was done via an amendment is the only part about which I have concerns, and yes, of a legal nature. Didn't someone above say this is cr-pping on new owners when it was the old owners who should have been paying into the reserve, to keep it healthy, all along?

No one's complaining (in this hot housing market). I am sure it's just an academic matter.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/24/2022 4:45 PM
I expect nearly all buyers finance the fee. On the hypothetical $500,000 house at JohnT38's HOA/COA, with the buyer putting down $100,000, the $2500 amortized over 30 years is around $13 extra per month. This is why it is not a big deal to the buyer.

In hot markets it sure helps shore up reserves.

How this was done via an amendment is the only part about which I have concerns, and yes, of a legal nature. Didn't someone above say this is cr-pping on new owners when it was the old owners who should have been paying into the reserve, to keep it healthy, all along?

No one's complaining (in this hot housing market). I am sure it's just an academic matter.

F.Y.I our condos are now selling in the mid 200's. We are tucked in an area where we are surrounded by $800K and up neighborhoods and even before the market got hot the condos sold almost instantly once they were put up for sale. I did some research before we added this fee and for the last 5 years on average 13-16 condos sold. Our average age has to be in the mid 70's and we have many that are mid 80's and up. Sadly a lot of the turnovers result from owners dying. If I was a betting man I would wager that this year there will be at least 20 condos sold. For whatever reason once the market heated up and people saw what they could sell there condo for they put them up for sale.

My point is this fee will result in a good chunk of change over the years. I hope that future Board are responsible and use this money to prevent the disaster that occurred previously over the years. This fee could actually end up lowering the monthly assessment since part of this money is used to fund the Reserves.

Personally, I will probably never buy in a condo community again. They serve a purpose and for some it's a good choice but I don't want to take the risk anymore which was a major reason why I sold mine. Buena Vista Va here I come!
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 4:34 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 3:44 PM
I have managed over 200 properties in 14 years and not one had that clause in their CCRs. Now I do know they exist as I have seen them in other states. I feel it should be the seller, not th buyer paying them, call it deferred maintenance.

In the case of the OP, they haven't voted on a dues increase for the number of years she has been on the Board, which, has been some time. Let's say for argument sake, they never had a increase and the reserves are next to nothing. The membership approves a Capital Improvement Fees, but only after they sell, and oh, BTW, we will stick it to the newbies coming in. Let's say the property 20 years ago sold for $100K, now selling for $500K. New buyer is on hook for $25K upfront, while the oldies, but goldies, have no responsibility whatsoever. I will go out on a limb and say it got....100% support, without having to create a raffle.

Personally, I wouldn't be buying into a sham like that.


It would be $2500 and not $25,000. I hear you Max and understand your reasoning. However I see it as a safety net. We all know that condos are notorious for not adequately funding their Reserves. The end result is poor maintenance and owners getting knocked up with periodic special assessments to cover something that should have been funded. As a buyer I would gladly pay this fee if I could review the HOA budget and see that they were not ignoring reserves and that my condo would be taken care of without the fear that I would get an unexpected assessment for something like roofs or roads. There are exceptions but for the most part special assessment's shouldn't happen and I see it as a result of poor management and budgeting.

I really do understand your reluctance. We thought long and hard about this subject before we moved forward and included it in the new docs. I don't regret it. The great thing is that buyers are free to say "no way" and look elsewhere. As I stated before it has had no impact on sales and our condos continue to see in a matter of days.

My bad, in this hot market, just saw a lot of zeros. But still wouldn't buy into that environment.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
I can just imagine the chunk of change that a clear majority of present owners decided to assess all future owners at JohnT38's COA. Next week, maybe this COA would like to take a vote on the following amendment:

After purchase, all those owners who bought after April 30, 2022 shall be solely responsible for paying all the expenses of the Association. All owners who bought before May 1, 2022 shall henceforth be relieved of paying any regular or special assessment.


I predict that 100% of owners will support this amendment.

I am just being provocative here, and just saying, with a twinkle in my eye: I think such amendments would never survive a court challenge.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/24/2022 5:19 PM
I can just imagine the chunk of change that a clear majority of present owners decided to assess all future owners at JohnT38's COA. Next week, maybe this COA would like to take a vote on the following amendment:

After purchase, all those owners who bought after April 30, 2022 shall be solely responsible for paying all the expenses of the Association. All owners who bought before May 1, 2022 shall henceforth be relieved of paying any regular or special assessment.


I predict that 100% of owners will support this amendment.

I am just being provocative here, and just saying, with a twinkle in my eye: I think such amendments would never survive a court challenge.


When we were researching this we found that Capital Improvement Fees (Or whatever you want to call it.) are becoming more and more common. We are not unique. Many of the HOA's in our area have this. Our lawyer assured us that it would hold up in court and that they in fact had. AugustinD given your skills on all things legal it would be interesting to see what you could find on the subject. Was our lawyer wrong or has this been challenged and found to be acceptable in the courts eyes? I realize you may not be interested in this but if you are....
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/24/2022 5:28 PM

When we were researching this we found that Capital Improvement Fees (Or whatever you want to call it.) are becoming more and more common. We are not unique. Many of the HOA's in our area have this. Our lawyer assured us that it would hold up in court and that they in fact had. AugustinD given your skills on all things legal it would be interesting to see what you could find on the subject. Was our lawyer wrong or has this been challenged and found to be acceptable in the courts eyes? I realize you may not be interested in this but if you are....
I want to be clear that, if this capital improvement fee, payable by the buyer, were in the governing documents from the time the condo association was first created, then I think a court would bless it. I have seen such capital improvement (or reserve fund) fees, payable by the buyer, in un-amended governing documents. I have not heard of a court challenge to such fees.

Also the internet has plenty of discussion about such fees. This is typically in the context of "transfer fees. The latter is a different type of fee. "Transfer fees" are a different animal; are often controversial; and are often regulated by statute.

But this fee of JohnT38's association, payable by buyers, was created via an amendment. The courts treat amendments differently. Sometimes the courts rule that an amendment is a "tyranny of the majority" and throw out the amendment. That the amendment here had the required votes, and that the vote was presumably conducted as required by state law and the governing documents, does not matter. I think the general rule (deriving from case law) is that: A supermajority of owners can lawfully amend the covenants only when the amendment is fair and yessir/yes ma'am, not some kind of tyranny of the majority.

Hearing what your attorney has to say about my hypothetical proposed amendment (requiring all who purchase after April 30, 2022 to pay for all the COA's expenses, and exempting all other owners from ever paying an assessment again) would be entertaining. (Call me sassy. I think your COA's attorney might also have some other choice words for my challenge here.)

I would be interested in what CathyA3, KerryL1, some of the Texans (Bill and Ben), PatJ1, and TimB4 have to say here, if they are interested in this little academic exercise.

If I have the motivation this weekend, I will pull up some HOA/COA case law on "tyranny of the majority" and maybe the courts' general standards for amendments vs. the courts' general standards for the original covenants.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
So, who is going to monitor sales within a community?
NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/24/2022 6:29 PM
So, who is going to monitor sales within a community?

Management company.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why would they do that? You going to pay them?

Former HOA President
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/25/2022 3:58 AM
Why would they do that? You going to pay them?

Here's a tip for you. We do pay our PM and they perform the collection as one of their duties. There are several triggers that let them know when to collect this fee. One is when they are contacted by the closing attorney and they have to prepare a Welcome Packet. The other is when a new owner contacts them to get keys to the common areas. The other is when the new owner reaches out to them to make a monthly payment or enroll in auto pay. Collecting this fee has not been a problem. Period. Could someone possibly slip by for a while? Possibly.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
-- Re collection of a capital improvement fee, and as JohnT38 indicated, it's no big deal. The Title Company, as part of a COA's disclosure and with covenants in hand, makes it happen.

-- After a night's sleep, I feel I should qualify my remarks a bit. In particular: The law is what the court says tomorrow. I think an amendment requiring new owners to pay a capital improvement fee is not fair and might not pass muster in court. But it could. Then off to an appeals court we may go.

-- The South Carolina Horizontal Property statute has this little snippet:
The cost of repair or replacement in excess of insurance proceeds and reserve must be considered a common expense.

-- "Replacement" means the same as using reserve funds. The above statute section says this is a "common expense." There may or may not be more in JohnT38's covenants about how "common expenses" are to be paid.

-- Here's a South Carolina HOA that passed and recorded an amendment imposing a capital improvement fee:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5be4dfbe9d5abba824146e43/t/5fc6781008845d09246a80e8/1606842384797/VPP+First+Amend+to+Dec+-First+Amendment+to+Declaration+VPP+Signed+with+Aff+11-24-20.pdf

-- The first page of the amendment indicates an attorney prepared the text of it. Note the curious (to say the least) typo in this amendment. The capital improvement fee imposed on buyers is to be "not more than .050% ( 1/2 of 1%)". Madam attorney, 0.05% is not the same as 0.5%. I would call this a material error. I think a buyer could argue this most certainly does mean the upper limit is 0.05%. Ambiguity is interpreted in favor of the person who did not draft the covenant.

-- Note that the vote passing the amendment was:
185 total votes possible
168 in favor
17 against

This represents a 100% voter participation rate. Over 90% voted for the amendment. Given what the amendment says, this is no surprise.

-- A starting point for seeing how South Carolina courts think about amendments:
https://casetext.com/case/queens-grant-v-greenwood-development

-- From the linked case law above, South Carolina developers have the right to amend as long as:
(1) the right to amend the covenants or impose new covenants must be unambiguously set forth in the original declaration of covenants; (2) the developer, at the time of the amended or new covenants, must possess a sufficient property interest in the development; (3) the developer must strictly comply with the amendment procedure as set forth in the declaration of covenants; (4) the developer must provide notice of amended or new covenants in strict accordance with the declaration of covenants and as otherwise may be provided by law; and (5) the amended or new covenants must not be unreasonable, indefinite, or contravene public policy.

I would expect the rules to be the same when the membership wants to amend.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
If push came to shove and the amendment went to court, one (big?) argument in favor of JohnT38's condo's amendment:

Condo Attorney:
Your honor, the reason this amendment is not unfair is because, naturally, the current owners who wish to sell are stuck with negotiating a price with buyers. The buyers will surely factor in the capital improvement fee as part of the negotiations. Surely opposing counsel agrees that a buyer would tend to pay a lower price for a condo unit with a capital improvement fee imposed on buyers vis-a-vis a condo unit without such a fee imposed on buyers. Hence the owner-seller is contributing, one way or another to the capital improvement fee.

Judge [grumbles a bit then says]:
Condo unit Buyer X's counsel, what do you say to this?

Condo unit Buyer X's counsel:
Ummm... but your Honor, when the owner-seller bought the condo twenty years ago, he/she did not have a capital improvement fee imposed on him/her.

Judge:
I will have to consider all this. I am going to check the case law on how the following is applied:
the amended or new covenants must not be unreasonable, indefinite, or contravene public policy. The "unreasonable" part has my attention at the moment, but this could change. I will issue my decision hopefully within the next three months. Court adjourned.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
I'm probably going to be booed out of this forum but I'm going to present my counter arguments.

1.) There are always major expenses on the horizon for any HOA community of any substantial size. For example, our roads are scheduled to be repaved next year and the estimated cost is $1.2-$1.5 Million dollars. Staining is due in two years and the estimate we got was $350K. The buyer that just bought my condo did not contribute to the funds that will be used for these projects. Despite this, he will benefit from the new roads and freshly stained community that others paid for. The Capital Improvement Fee means he now has some skin in the game and I personally have no problem with him having to contribute $1,100 to his community Reserve Funds.

2.) As I mentioned earlier, I believe condos are the most susceptible to the consequences of poor management and inadequate budgeting. This fee is a form of forced savings and although in a perfect world it wouldn't be needed I'm for it. I admit I am VERY jaded when it comes to trusting HOA Boards.

3.) If the Board does their job the percent of an owner's monthly assessment that goes towards Reserves should drop which means the monthly dues should drop or at least stabilize. The new owner that paid this fee gets the benefit of this.

4.) If the Board does their job this fee will help reduce the likelihood of unplanned assessments that result from inadequate Reserve Funds. The new buyer benefits from this.

I really do understand the counter arguments that others have raised and I respectfully agree to disagree. I do bristle when it is called a scam. When someone buys a condo with this type of fee no one is forcing them to do it and if they don't like it they can look elsewhere.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
I am going to weigh in again on this topic. I hope I am as articulate as JohnT38 and AugustinD.

The capital improvement fee for new owners is a close parallel to what my former HOA charges for new members tapping into the sanitary sewer. Although they don't call it that. But it is essentially for a capital improvement. It is now set at $10,000. My dispute with the Association was over two things; the fee was not disclosed and the fee was too high. I didn't object to a fee but the amount was way too high. The Board's argument was that it would cost that much to install a privately owned septic tank for a single family home. I saw that as a flawed argument because it wasn't like they were starting from scratch. It was developed in the 1970's and that was a selling feature.

Our attorney said he would argue the case on the reasonableness of the fee. Reasonable is such a subjective term but it seems like the legal world uses that word a lot. I did some research of neighboring developments with the same type of setup. Out of the three I researched, one charged no tap in fee, one charged $100, and one charged $150. That is a close estimate. I don't remember the exact amounts but it was Nothing close to what our Association was charging.

Does a $10,000 fee stand the reasonable test? Does JohnT38's capital improvement fee stand the reasonable test? Based on what JohnT38 posted, he presents a good argument and the proposed fee seems reasonable. His example of his former COA needing to resurface their roads is a good example of the high costs associated with certain amenities. As I posted before, my attorney stated that if you use it, you got a pay for it. Some of these amenities are not just nice to have but necessities. You need roads to get to your homes and a means of disposing of your waste water. I see nothing wrong with a reasonable fee charged to new owners. But I also think in my situation, the Board neglected to keep the yearly assessments at a level it needed to and expected a new homeowner to pick up that slack. That was unreasonable and unfair.

Shortly before moving, interest in my former development increased and about 3 more lots were sold and new homes were being built. I assume these owners were paying the Association that $10,000 fee. It may come back to bite them in the a$$ at some point but new owners don't seem to balk at the amount. Go figure.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
JohnT38, no booing. Don't let my puny internet opinion get you down. What you implemented is working. And it might be found okay by a court of law. This is just an exchange as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Posted By BancsS on 03/25/2022 11:34 AM
The capital improvement fee for new owners is a close parallel to what my former HOA charges for new members tapping into the sanitary sewer. Although they don't call it that. But it is essentially for a capital improvement.
But it is a capital improvement specific to one lot, right? I think this reality distinguishes BancsS's situation from JohnT38's situation.

I agree of course that full disclosure should have happened in BancsS's situation.

Back to the courtroom. Before Her Honor finishes saying, "Court adjourned," the COA attorney leaps up. The following exchange occurs:

COA Attorney:
Excuse me, Your Honor, one other thing. On the horizon for this condo association is an expense of nearly $2 million in capital asset repair, replacement and maintenance. What new owners pay directly benefits them. For example, new owners get a brand new parking lot. The new owner should pay more.

Judge:
Don't all the owners, old and new, get to enjoy the brand new parking lot?

COA Attorney:
Yes.

Judge:
Did the old owners pay their fair share for the brand new parking lot?

Owners' Attorney:
If I may, your honor, no, the old owners did not pay their fair share. According to the ACME Reserve Study Company, the old owners, via the Board, underpaid for years. The old owners, via the Board, did not contribute nearly enough. Right here in Exhibit B your Honor, the ACME Company says the reserve fund has been funded to the tune of 30% for four straight years. Your honor, 30% is appalling by any reasonable standard. It's exactly why the defendant COA had to find a way to raise revenue and quickly. And the way the COA found is via an amendment that I believe is patently unreasonable: Make the new owners pay for the sins of the old owners.

The whole purpose of reserve funding is to ensure all owners, over all time periods, are paying in as fair a way as possible for the upkeep of the capital assets.

Also, your honor, what about owners who never sell? They are spared any capital improvement fee. Yet the governing documents and statute appear to me to be clear that all owners share equally (or per the proportion in the Declaration, based on unit size) in all common expenses. The plaintiff's amendment is a de facto special assessment on one class of owners but not others. Your honor, I say, "Foul."

Judge:
All right, I think I have heard enough. Anyone else going to interrupt me as I say, "Court Adjourned"? Anyone?
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
AugustinD, you didn't get me down. I actually appreciate your thoughtful and educated responses. I find it very helpful when someone presents both sides of a topic. This forum was a tremendous help for me when I got on the Board and was trying to wrap my mind around all things HOA's. If people aren't willing to listen to someone else's view then how can they learn and improve?
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/25/2022 12:48 PM
JohnT38, no booing. Don't let my puny internet opinion get you down. What you implemented is working. And it might be found okay by a court of law. This is just an exchange as far as I am concerned.

Posted By BancsS on 03/25/2022 11:34 AM
The capital improvement fee for new owners is a close parallel to what my former HOA charges for new members tapping into the sanitary sewer. Although they don't call it that. But it is essentially for a capital improvement.
But it is a capital improvement specific to one lot, right? I think this reality distinguishes BancsS's situation from JohnT38's situation.


Will you please clarify what you mean by capital improvement? Yes, the hookup fee is for one lot but the funds cover the maintenance of a capital asset that is used by all homes. It is a system for an entire community, not an individual home. The tap in was for one small area under the dirt that connected one pipe from my home to a piping system that emptied into a wastewater lagoon. I must be missing your point because you are much more versed in HOA issues than I am.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
BancsS, I am certain I do not have a good handle on the situation at your HOA.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/25/2022 1:59 PM
BancsS, I am certain I do not have a good handle on the situation at your HOA.

It is a unique HOA and I'm afraid I don't articulate it well but hopefully my new HOA will be less complex. It should be since there are no common elements except the landscaping and a sign at the entrance. Thanks to this forum, I have much more knowledge than I had before. So thanks.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/25/2022 1:59 PM
BancsS, I am certain I do not have a good handle on the situation at your HOA.

It is a unique HOA and I'm afraid I don't articulate it well but hopefully my new HOA will be less complex. It should be since there are no common elements except the landscaping and a sign at the entrance. Thanks to this forum, I have much more knowledge than I had before. So thanks.

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