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CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Hello,

Sorry in advance for the extremely long post. I'm new to the board and would appreciate any insight.

I live in a community of over 500 single family detached homes that were built in the mid - 1990s. The homes range from around 1900 SQ ft to about 2700 sq ft. Lot sizes vary from around 5000 sq ft to around 10k sq ft. Property values in our city and county have increased exponentially over the years. My community's homes are now selling for upwards of 1.6 million. (being in California I'm sure that's not surprising.)

I moved into this community a little less than 5 years ago. Many people in this community are original owners but there have been a slew of younger families moving in (me being one of them).

While the homes in this community are beautiful, the restrictions are not. Our CC&Rs are pretty standard but our ARC guidelines are a whopping ~50 pages and are pedantic to say the least. In speaking with several neighbors in the community I'm finding that the board tends to deny every single arc application and they're very good at bullying homeowners into settling for something they aren't happy with as opposed to allowing them more freedom in their selections. Many just don't even make improvements because they know they will be denied.

Our arc rules impose guidelines that are forcing us to keep our neighborhood looking like its 1999. The board is against anything new and modern and they refuse to allow us to bring our homes into this decade. Many of the guidelines explicitly say things like "because this is what the builder originally intended". None of the builders who built these homes even exist anymore so I'm not sure why they are so stuck on keeping with the original intentions in the first place.

For example, every single wood fence in the community must be painted. Only two streets are allowed to have stained or clear wood fencing because that was the original builder's specifications. Oh, and they can't have knots. Garage doors must be "raised panel" - basically the cookie cutter standard garage door that everyone has. Gates must be either tan or black and pickets must be vertical. Windows must be white-framed. Front entry doors must be raised-panel wood. Severe restrictions on window placement in doors and garages.

We finally got notified of an updated paint palette (it had been a decade since they updated it). I was excited to see the new paint colors and found that they were even more restrictive than before. Previously, the approved colors were about every shade of brown you could think of. The new colors are basically the same. Many people in the neighborhood were hoping for more modern colors - more shades of white for stucco, and more grays/charcoals/blacks for doors and trim. These are the colors that lead to exponentially increasing property values in my city and county.

Now that you have a basic idea of some of the issue... here's where things get complicated. The president of the board has been a board member since the homes were built. He is also on the ARC committee. I believe that he and a couple of others are the reason that homeowners have been blocked from making more modern improvements.

I have a neighbor who submitted an application to modify the exterior of her home in such a way that is similar to the way a couple of other homes have been modified. Her application was denied. Another neighbor submitted an application to expand her home in order to accommodate her disabled mother who lives with her. Application denied. There was no basis for the denial except that they don't fall under the "New ARC guidelines."

What new guidelines, you ask? Well it turns out that the board had just passed a new set of arc guidelines and that we were in the 28 day period for homeowners to submit comments and feedback before they voted to adopt them. Not one single homeowner in this community was aware of this. We were not notified. Without going into too much detail, they later said that they posted the new guidelines at some obscure location on a random bulletin board that is located on a strip of common area grass that they call a park. Many homeowners aren't even aware of this bulletin board.

The basis of those two denials above? The original guidelines allowed people to expand the front walls of their house forward to be in line with the garage doors. The new guidelines will only allow people to expand half that distance. For some people with smaller lots who cannot expand to the side or to the back, this just doesn't make sense.

Since then I've been doing hours and hours of research on davis-stirling and have a fairly basic understanding of the laws in California as they apply to HOAs. The new guidelines that the board is trying to adopt are even more restrictive than before. It honestly seems that the purpose of these revisions is to discourage people further from wanting to make improvements that aren't in line with what our president thinks the community should look like. You can't even rip up a plant in your front yard and replace it without approval.

We got a large group together and canvassed the entire neighborhood and gathered a couple hundred signatures in opposition of these new guidelines. We attended the board meeting and the room was packed. People were really upset and spoke passionately about the issues they've had with the board over the years. The main theme was "denials". Another common theme was landscaping issues which I won't get into here as this is already too long. Long story short, the board agreed to "table" the adoption of the rules and allow for further comments and suggestions. Based on the fact that we got over 30% of the community to petition to oppose these guidelines I'm not even sure if it's legal for them to still pass them even in 30 days. I'm aware we can call a special meeting if they do pass the rules and call for a veto but I'm not sure if it should even get to that point.

I guess my question today is - how can we inspire change? There are at least 2 board members who have been in positions of power for over 20 years and they are holding our community back. Please understand that I am not advocating for a complete disregard for the rules. I understand the importance of keeping the general aesthetics of the community but I also believe that modern colors and features will only increase our property values further - as do all of the neighbors I have spoken with. I know that getting involved in the board is the number one way to do this but my fear is that the president has the board wrapped around his finger and that everything is generally his way or the highway. I think he's so used to getting his way for years and knows what stall tactics to deploy in order to get people to either give up or bend to his will.

The board is not up for re-election until next year. I am definitely planning to get involved next year and know that a couple of my neighbors want to run as well. Prior to all of this we've had a lot of homeowner apathy. Now I'm realizing it's because no one wants to deal with the hassle and they're also worried about retaliation.

Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions. I haven't yet begun to delve into other issues I'm uncovering because that would take much too long.

I'm also curious to see if it common for such an old community to have such strict guidelines? Thanks in advance for your help, insight, and thoughts.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
I can really relate to your situation. Our community was built in 1982 and the Board members did not like change and also refused to allow modern choices for ARC and landscape requests. In my opinion you really only have one choice and that is to run for the Board and get like minded people to join you. I'm glad to hear that you are prepared to do this. As long as the old timers remain on the Board your chances of getting them to change are slim. Good luck!
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/15/2022 2:48 PM

We got a large group together and canvassed the entire neighborhood and gathered a couple hundred signatures in opposition of these new guidelines. We attended the board meeting and the room was packed. People were really upset and spoke passionately about the issues they've had with the board over the years. The main theme was "denials". Another common theme was landscaping issues which I won't get into here as this is already too long. Long story short, the board agreed to "table" the adoption of the rules and allow for further comments and suggestions. Based on the fact that we got over 30% of the community to petition to oppose these guidelines I'm not even sure if it's legal for them to still pass them even in 30 days. I'm aware we can call a special meeting if they do pass the rules and call for a veto but I'm not sure if it should even get to that point.
-- If you are not already doing so, henceforth use this excellent reference site (run by a law firm) early and often:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/

-- Put the word "rules" in the search engine for the site I linked above, and read everything that comes up.

-- Be aware that the first hurdle to pass when attempting to convene a Special Meeting of the Owners (not the Board) is to achieve quorum. If quorum is not achieved, the Meeting cannot proceed.

-- Keep in mind that board-created rules must have a basis in the CCRs. You assert that the board-created rules do this and that. But you never state what the CCRs say on these various topics concerning colors, fences, materials et cetera.

-- One of the big questions is: Is the Board overstepping the authority that the CCRs grant the Board by making rules that are outside the boundaries of the restrictions given in the CCRs? Answering this will require a careful reading of first the CCRs, and then the board-created rules.

-- You will need to get your people together and start a strategy to identify candidates who feel as you do and gather proxies (if used at your HOA).

-- Consider continuing to read this forum to keep learning. Follow threads where a California CID (wink) in particular is being discussed.

-- Assuming you have tried to find answers at the Davis-stirlilng.com site, remember the only dumb question for this forum is an unasked one.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Thank you for your reply. Yes I have been reading through Davis Stirling and I'm learning a lot. I will follow the threads you mentioned and will hope to gain more info there. How recent is this CID thread you're mentioning?

Regarding your questions about the CC&Rs - they don't specify the colors, fences, materials, etc. Our CC&Rs are lengthy but there's a whole section on Architectural Control. Some of the basics are outlined below. Would you say that a very detailed, 50 page arc guidelines doc is outside the boundaries of these rules? I'm especially interested in understanding the very last paragraph I included below. (I tried to clip out any unnecessary language from these paragraphs for shorter reading):

-- The arc will approve or disapprove all plans submitted for any addition, improvement or alteration, solely on the basis of aesthetic considerations and the overall benefit or detriment which would result to the immediate vicinity and the properties. The arc will consider aesthetic aspects of the architectural designs, landscaping, color schemes, exterior finishes, etc. The arc's approval/disapproval will be based solely on the considerations set forth in this article.

-- The arc will only approve plans if the construction additions or alterations in the locations indicated will not negatively affect the appearance of the surrounding area of the properties, that any structure affected will be in harmony with the surrounding structures, and that the construction will not detract from the beauty and attractiveness of the common area or the enjoyment thereof by the members.

-- The arc will have the right and duty to enact reasonable standards against which to examine any request made pursuant to this article in order to ensure that the proposed plans conform harmoniously to the exterior design and existing materials of the improvements presently existing.

-- In addition to the provisions of this article each owner of a lot within the properties shall be subject to the architectural and landscaping control restrictions and provisions of the community declaration.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Thank you for your reply. Were you able to get on the board as well and get the guidelines changed?
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/15/2022 4:11 PM
Thank you for your reply. Were you able to get on the board as well and get the guidelines changed?

Yes, I was on the Board for 3 years and for the last 2 years I was the president. We ultimately were able to get our 40 year old governing documents rewritten and we revamped the ARC and Landscape committee. The other major issue we had was reserve fund that was way underfunded. This resulted in a steep increase of our monthly assessment. We spent several months educating owners on our finances via emails and meetings held at the clubhouse. Much to my surprise the vast majority understood that we were in poor financial shape and accepted the increases with little objection. It was a lot of work and I was willing to treat as a part time job since I'm retired.

I can tell you that going into it I didn't understand how complex an HOA can be and it took me a year before I really felt like I had a handle on it. Even after 3 years I certainly can't claim to be an expert on the subject. My point is there is a steep learning curve for new Board members.

We put in a lot of effort to get feedback from owners when it came to the ARC and Landscape committee so that we could understand what they were looking for. In general my philosophy was that the Board should be totally transparent whenever possible to owners in regards to what we were doing and why. Earning their trust took time but it paid off for us.

I wish you luck and you should keep coming back here. There are some VERY knowledgeable people here and I think you will find that by asking questions and reading all the posts that it will speed up the learning curve that you will face if you get on the Board.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
-- CaliF, in my experience a Board/HOA that does not have detailed ACC guidelines (pursuant to the CCRs) is a Board/HOA that takes a greater risk of being sued vis-a-vis a Board/HOA with little to no guidelines.

-- The case law says that, where the CC&Rs give a HOA Board or ACC discretion, this discretion must be authorized "reasonably." If push comes to shove, what "reasonably" is will depend on the trial court and possibly an appeals court (for assessing and possibly fine tuning the law as it applies to what the trial court did).

-- What part of the last paragraph (starting with "In addition to the provisions...") does not make sense to you?

-- Is there a definition of "community declaration" in your CC&Rs? Normally the "declaration" is short for "the Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions," a.k.a. "CC&RS."

-- It's possible other sections of your CC&Rs address more specifics of exteriors of homes. E.g. fence height. Perhaps the last paragraph is just saying, "The ACC/Board can create rules, but they better be consistent with all the other covenants in the CC&Rs."

-- In the Davis-Stirling statute (a.k.a. California Civil Code sections yada to such-and-such). "CID" stands for "Common Interest Development." A CID in California is either a commercial or residential development with common area. Both HOAs and COAs are CIDs to the extent the statute regulates HOAs and COAs. (There may be a minimum number of units for the statute to apply to a COA.)

-- If the 50 pages of restrictions are driving you all crazy for whatever reason, sure, try to change the board. If the Board pushes back and starts going rogue (or is rogue), post back here for how to respond. Your success will depend on how far over to the dark side this Board has gone. (Assuming the Board is on the dark side. It may not be. It's possible your group is on the dark side but now getting up to speed on how to get out of the dark side.)
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/15/2022 4:41 PM

-- In the Davis-Stirling statute (a.k.a. California Civil Code sections yada to such-and-such). "CID" stands for "Common Interest Development." A CID in California is either a commercial or residential development with common area. Both HOAs and COAs are CIDs to the extent the statute regulates HOAs and COAs. (There may be a minimum number of units for the statute to apply to a COA.)
The wink with regard to CIDs in my earlier post was a nod of the head to one of the long-time posters here who occasionally reminds the forum that, in the language of California law, California has neither HOAs nor COAs but only CIDs. One statute fits all. In other states, having one statute dedicated to condominiums and a second statute dedicated to single family home subdivisions, under a HOA regime, is common.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Sorry - I meant to say that our CC&Rs do not address these specific things but that our ARC guidelines do. Our ARC guidelines are 50ish pages long and those are the ones that are super restrictive.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
This is great info. Good for you!! Happy you were able to do all that and get the blessing of the community as well.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/15/2022 4:11 PM
[quoting from the CC&Rs]
-- In addition to the provisions of this article each owner of a lot within the properties shall be subject to the architectural and landscaping control restrictions and provisions of the community declaration.
-- By any chance is there a master HOA while you live in one of the sub HOAs?

-- Undoubtedly there are non-ACC provisions in the CCRs, which apply to all lot owners. E.g. "Thou shall not be a nuisance"; "Thou shall not convert a patio to a living space."; "Thou shall not park on the street but instead, park only on driveways or in the garage"; "Thou shall not raise livestock on one's lot"; and so on.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
--My community of single family homes is in the master association. There are a few condominium complexes that are sub-associations under my master association. The arc guidelines don't apply to them and only apply to the single family homes.

-- Yes, you're correct. Nuisance/signs/parking/animal restrictions/trash/irrigation/common area facilities/leasing/rights of the handicapped, etc. those are all there.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Posted By CaliF [quoting from the CC&Rs]
"-- In addition to the provisions of this article each owner of a lot within the properties shall be subject to the architectural and landscaping control restrictions and provisions of the community declaration."

Say, CaliF, how about posting the title of "this article." I assume "community declaration" means your CC&Rs. Have they every been amended, by the way?

Do your CC&Rs say that there must be an ARC? Or anything about ARC guidelines (our condo CC&Rs require both, and our CC&Rs give the Guidelines a lot of authority.)

When you read about rules at the excellent site that Augustin recommended, Notice a couple of things. 1. In CA, The notice for 28 days for Owners to comment on proposed rules only has to be a "general notice." It only needs to be posted in a common area place/area that your Assn. designates in the budget letter owners receive every year. The board's posting seems legal, but the board did its best to make it as difficult as possible for owners to read. Sneaky; underhanded, if you ask me. It says, they knew there would be push-back. Our Property management company always sends a proposed rule change out in an email blast along with posting it in our condo mailrooms.

That a bunch of you showed up at an open meeting is really good and, it seems, persuaded the Board to postpone a decision. Make sure you get an equally vocal group to attend the next time it's on the agenda.

2. I don't know this area very well, but at D-S.com you'll see that owners in CA can overturn rules that the Board makes. As I recall, the process didn't seem too difficult.

Otherwise, keep your neighbors interested in making change in your HOA. A bunch of us newer owners--at the time--did and got rid of the old guard at an election. Stay together, have your own meetings about the kinds of changes you all want to see, continue studying your Bylaws and other governing documents. It's crucial to have unified group.

By the way, do your Bylaws says all directors are elected at the same time? Or, that there must be staggered terms? How many must be on your Board?
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
CaliF,

I am community manager in California who now owns his own company. For six years, I worked for 3 firms managing about 120 communities of various sizes and types. Currently, my firm handles 62 properties, ranging from condos, to townhomes to single family dwellings. A number of the properties were built in the 1980's. The newest community we manage is about 10 years old and is a senior community. What's common with the majority is the governing documents, especially the CCRs are canned, boilerplate versions that do not resemble the communities they were put in place for. The other item common is the Architectural Guidelines. There are none. Most have never even bothered to form a committee, so final decision is with the board. I have some that don't even have an Architectural Committee or Guidelines in their CCRs.

In these instances, it is fly by the seat of your pants time. What's good today, changes tomorrow. On the other-hand, I have seen some well thought out ARC Guidelines for single family homes. One I managed back in 2014, had Guidelines consisting of about 75 pages. While under developer control, the ARC committee had total control and final say. This is common with larger SFH communities with national builders.

With older communities, you're not going to see anyone step up and develop any type of guidelines. For a couple of SFH communities, I had a national paint company's HOA division develop a painting and then post it on their website.

A couple of answers to your comments. In regards to posting, they are allowed to post at a random bulletin board, AS LONG as it is stated that way in their Annual Disclosure and Budget which are required to be set to all owners, either by mail or email, 30 days prior to the close of your fiscal year. Another comment you made was elections. You're required to have elections every year, either to elect a full board for one year terms, or partial boards on staggered terms.

Finally, in a community as large as yours, you need a majority of board seats, and more importantly, very strong support from a majority of the community. Otherwise, you're spinning your wheels until burnout.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/15/2022 4:45 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 03/15/2022 4:41 PM

-- In the Davis-Stirling statute (a.k.a. California Civil Code sections yada to such-and-such). "CID" stands for "Common Interest Development." A CID in California is either a commercial or residential development with common area. Both HOAs and COAs are CIDs to the extent the statute regulates HOAs and COAs. (There may be a minimum number of units for the statute to apply to a COA.)
The wink with regard to CIDs in my earlier post was a nod of the head to one of the long-time posters here who occasionally reminds the forum that, in the language of California law, California has neither HOAs nor COAs but only CIDs. One statute fits all. In other states, having one statute dedicated to condominiums and a second statute dedicated to single family home subdivisions, under a HOA regime, is common.

We have that situation in SC. The SC Horizontal Property Act covers multi story associations. Nothing covers other type units such as single home associations, side by side duplexes/town home associations, etc. Though not totally exact, it can be said that if you have a shared elevator you fall under the Horizontal Property Act.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/16/2022 9:54 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 03/15/2022 4:45 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 03/15/2022 4:41 PM

-- In the Davis-Stirling statute (a.k.a. California Civil Code sections yada to such-and-such). "CID" stands for "Common Interest Development." A CID in California is either a commercial or residential development with common area. Both HOAs and COAs are CIDs to the extent the statute regulates HOAs and COAs. (There may be a minimum number of units for the statute to apply to a COA.)
The wink with regard to CIDs in my earlier post was a nod of the head to one of the long-time posters here who occasionally reminds the forum that, in the language of California law, California has neither HOAs nor COAs but only CIDs. One statute fits all. In other states, having one statute dedicated to condominiums and a second statute dedicated to single family home subdivisions, under a HOA regime, is common.


We have that situation in SC. The SC Horizontal Property Act covers multi story associations. Nothing covers other type units such as single home associations, side by side duplexes/town home associations, etc. Though not totally exact, it can be said that if you have a shared elevator you fall under the Horizontal Property Act.

We are side by side condos where all the land is owned by the HOA. We are subject to the S.C Horizontal Property Act.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Hi KerryL1,

Sorry for the late reply - young kids and a full time job. Thanks for your input!!

Regarding your questions:

"Say, CaliF, how about posting the title of "this article." I assume "community declaration" means your CC&Rs. Have they every been amended, by the way?"

-- The specified article is called "Architectural Control" from our CC&Rs. It's listed in a section called "Community Association Architectural Control". Yes, these are amended CC&Rs from 2010.

"Do your CC&Rs say that there must be an ARC? Or anything about ARC guidelines (our condo CC&Rs require both, and our CC&Rs give the Guidelines a lot of authority.)"

-- Here's what the CC&R's say about ARC: "The architectural committee shall consist of not less than three members as shall be determined by the board. The board has the right to appoint the members of the architectural committee. Architectural committee members shall serve for a term of one year or until their respective successors are appointed or upon the resignation as evidenced by a written notice of resignation delivered to the board. Persons appointed to the architectural committee shall be from the membership of the master association. The architectural committee shall have the right and duty to promulgate reasonable standard against which to examine any request made pursuant to this article, in order to ensure that the proposed plans conform harmoniously to the exterior design an existing materials of the improvements presently existing or planned for the properties. The architectural committee may designate an appoint a representative who is a design professional and a majority of the members of said architectural committee may, from time to time, remove or replace such representative. The designated representative of the architectural committee maybe but not be, a member of the architectural committee."

"By the way, do your Bylaws says all directors are elected at the same time? Or, that there must be staggered terms? How many must be on your Board?"

-- The bylaws state that our board must be 5 members.

-- Regarding Elections, here is what the bylaws say: "At the 2010 annual meeting of the Association, the three (3) candidates
receiving the highest number of votes shall be elected to serve a two (2) year term and the two (2) candidates receiving the
next highest votes shall be elected to serve a one year term. At each annual meeting thereafter, the successor shall be
elected to serve a two year term."

CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Hi MaxB84,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your input and it's interesting to hear about some of these communities that you manage. I guess our community must be very different than many of the ones you've been managing. Have you ever dealt with board members who have been in place for 20+ years and refuse to relax the ARC guidelines at all? While our community is older, my issue is that the board did revise the new guidelines. Instead of making them a little more lax and easier for homeowners to work with, they made them even stricter than they were previously.

For example, They suddenly decided that a walkway to the front door can't me more than 4ft wide. They're now trying to regulate the amount of lumens your exterior garden lighting can be as well as what the color temperature "Kelvin" can be. As I mentioned previously, they're now also changing how far forward you can expand your home if you wanted to add on to it. They've also added additional language further restricting garage doors and front doors. These are just a few examples.

Again, I'm not against having rules or arc guidelines in place. I just think that with a community this large it's not feasible to adopt a one size fits all attitude. Like I said before, the board denies almost every application. They don't even bother with "approved with conditions." Variances are almost never granted. I don't think that's a fair or realistic approach, but I guess I could be wrong.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/16/2022 9:54 AM
Nothing covers other type units such as single home associations, side by side duplexes/town home associations, etc. Though not totally exact, it can be said that if you have a shared elevator you fall under the Horizontal Property Act.
?

Isn't the following the South Carolina HOA statute, applicable to many SC single family home HOAs?

https://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t27c030.php
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
CaliF,

You should have someone knowledgeable in HOA's to look at all the pertinent documents, CCRs, ARC Guideline and Condo Plans together to determine if the Board or ARC have overstepped their authority.

I have no issue with California " One size fits all" approach. It is much easier to research than most states including Texas and Florida. BTW, something like the S.C Horizontal Property Act should be reserved for cemeteries.
SarahV4 (California)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Usually, the easiest thing to do is to elect a new board at election time. You say the board is not up for election until next year, but also quoted bylaws where it is clear at least 3 seats should be up this year (unless you JUST had an election this year). Make sure your board is following CA election laws, which require a notification of number of open seats and call for nominations, and a secret ballon, etc. It is surprising that no one has stepped up and taken over for incumbent members, unless the incumbents are doing what the majority of residents want.

If you have majority owner support, you could recall one or more board members. This is not advisable due to the strife it will create, but it could be your best option if you can't wait until elections. It is definitely a better option than a lawsuit.

Others have given better advice about how to overturn rules. You just need to make sure you really have the backing of a good portion of the HOA members - not that you've found a minority that is also annoyed. Sometimes there is a silent majority who generally agrees and is supportive of the board - which is different from apathy. Usually an election gives a good indicator of how supportive people are of the status quo. If it is the case that you and the others are a minority, and you cannot get like minded board members elected to the board or decision overturned by owners.... then a lawsuit asserting the ARC guidelines don't have basis in CC&Rs still might be successful. Lawsuit should be saved as the last resort, though, for obvious reasons.
SarahV4 (California)
Posts: 29
Posted:
To summarize what I was getting at above a bit more clearly: In CA, a member's most powerful and straightforward way to influence HOA activities is via electing board members. There are other paths, but this is where the power is the most clear and easiest to grasp without jumping through other hoops.

Also, do your CC&Rs say anything about term limits? A 20+ year board member seems unusual, but I assume some don't have term limits.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I have never managed a property that has term limits written into the Bylaws.

As far as elections, very possible that there is no turnover because of the sheer size of the HOA, (500 homes) and trying to achieve quorum, which, in a majority of instances is at least 50%. My association hadn't opened ballots in 8 years until we eliminated quorum, using the personal advise of the author of www.davis-stirling.com.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SarahV4 on 03/16/2022 9:03 PM
To summarize what I was getting at above a bit more clearly: In CA, a member's most powerful and straightforward way to influence HOA activities is via electing board members. There are other paths, but this is where the power is the most clear and easiest to grasp without jumping through other hoops.

Also, do your CC&Rs say anything about term limits? A 20+ year board member seems unusual, but I assume some don't have term limits.

Thanks for your reply. I don’t believe we have term limits, especially since at least one person has been on for over 20 years and the other has been over 10 years.

Appreciate the insight. Will definitely be getting involved and urging my neighbors to do so as well.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/16/2022 9:25 PM
I have never managed a property that has term limits written into the Bylaws.

As far as elections, very possible that there is no turnover because of the sheer size of the HOA, (500 homes) and trying to achieve quorum, which, in a majority of instances is at least 50%. My association hadn't opened ballots in 8 years until we eliminated quorum, using the personal advise of the author of www.davis-stirling.com.

F.Y.I...Our docs state that no Board member can serve more than two terms. (2 year terms.) After that they must be off the Board for at least one year before serving again. I have mixed feelings on if this is a good thing or not.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You don't need formal term limits - what you need are homeowners who will hold themselves and the board accountable. If a majority feel a change is warranted because someone 's been on the board "too long", they need to vote accordingly. Oh the other hand, they need to ensure the replacement(s) are capable of taking the community forward and are willing to learn and work hard.

I'm glad you're getting involved, but remember, the change may require that YOU step and run for a spot. Trust it can be a lot different when you go to the other side of the table, where someone may accuse you of being unreasonable, just as you've done with the current board.

I'm not saying you're wrong - homeowners, regardless of where people sit, should understand that as communities change the people who live in them and the times they live in also change. Good boards understand that - not everything will be suited for your community, but at least be willing to listen.

Good luck to you.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/17/2022 8:58 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/16/2022 9:25 PM
I have never managed a property that has term limits written into the Bylaws.

As far as elections, very possible that there is no turnover because of the sheer size of the HOA, (500 homes) and trying to achieve quorum, which, in a majority of instances is at least 50%. My association hadn't opened ballots in 8 years until we eliminated quorum, using the personal advise of the author of www.davis-stirling.com.


F.Y.I...Our docs state that no Board member can serve more than two terms. (2 year terms.) After that they must be off the Board for at least one year before serving again. I have mixed feelings on if this is a good thing or not.

I definitely wish ours stated that.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/17/2022 8:58 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/16/2022 9:25 PM
I have never managed a property that has term limits written into the Bylaws.

As far as elections, very possible that there is no turnover because of the sheer size of the HOA, (500 homes) and trying to achieve quorum, which, in a majority of instances is at least 50%. My association hadn't opened ballots in 8 years until we eliminated quorum, using the personal advise of the author of www.davis-stirling.com.


F.Y.I...Our docs state that no Board member can serve more than two terms. (2 year terms.) After that they must be off the Board for at least one year before serving again. I have mixed feelings on if this is a good thing or not.

Actually - here is what they say. Can you help me interpret this? This is from the amended bylaws from 2010.

"At the 2010 annual meeting of the Association, the three (3) candidates
receiving the highest number of votes shall be elected to serve a two (2) year term and the two (2) candidates receiving the
next highest votes shall be elected to serve a one year term. At each annual meeting thereafter, the successor shall be
elected to serve a two year term."
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 9:06 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/17/2022 8:58 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/16/2022 9:25 PM
I have never managed a property that has term limits written into the Bylaws.

As far as elections, very possible that there is no turnover because of the sheer size of the HOA, (500 homes) and trying to achieve quorum, which, in a majority of instances is at least 50%. My association hadn't opened ballots in 8 years until we eliminated quorum, using the personal advise of the author of www.davis-stirling.com.


F.Y.I...Our docs state that no Board member can serve more than two terms. (2 year terms.) After that they must be off the Board for at least one year before serving again. I have mixed feelings on if this is a good thing or not.


I definitely wish ours stated that.

The reason I have mixed feelings is because of our environment. Apathy runs rampant here and getting anyone to even be willing to serve is a major problem. At one point we came very close to not being able to have the minimum required for the Board which is 3. I would bet that the average age here is low to mid 70's and many of these people have already served and no longer have the energy or desire to run again.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
In 2010, three directors Manny, Moe and Jack were the three highest votes getters and will serve a two year term. Minnie and Mickey came in fourth and fifth and will serve a one year term. In 2011, Minnie and Mickey's directors positions are up for election and thee association will hold an election for two seats for a two year term. In 2012, Manny, Moe and Jack's term will be up for election and the association should be conducting an election for three seats again for two years terms.

Someone in the association needs to keep track of the directors and their terms.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 9:07 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/17/2022 8:58 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/16/2022 9:25 PM
I have never managed a property that has term limits written into the Bylaws.

As far as elections, very possible that there is no turnover because of the sheer size of the HOA, (500 homes) and trying to achieve quorum, which, in a majority of instances is at least 50%. My association hadn't opened ballots in 8 years until we eliminated quorum, using the personal advise of the author of www.davis-stirling.com.


F.Y.I...Our docs state that no Board member can serve more than two terms. (2 year terms.) After that they must be off the Board for at least one year before serving again. I have mixed feelings on if this is a good thing or not.


Actually - here is what they say. Can you help me interpret this? This is from the amended bylaws from 2010.

"At the 2010 annual meeting of the Association, the three (3) candidates
receiving the highest number of votes shall be elected to serve a two (2) year term and the two (2) candidates receiving the
next highest votes shall be elected to serve a one year term. At each annual meeting thereafter, the successor shall be
elected to serve a two year term."

The way I read this is that they can continue to serve. Nowhere do I see any wording that limits how long they can be on the Board. With that said, there are some other people here that are better than me at interpreting legal stuff.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/17/2022 9:57 AM
In 2010, three directors Manny, Moe and Jack were the three highest votes getters and will serve a two year term. Minnie and Mickey came in fourth and fifth and will serve a one year term. In 2011, Minnie and Mickey's directors positions are up for election and thee association will hold an election for two seats for a two year term. In 2012, Manny, Moe and Jack's term will be up for election and the association should be conducting an election for three seats again for two years terms.

Someone in the association needs to keep track of the directors and their terms.

Does this mean that manny, moe and jack can be re-elected to the same positions after their term ends?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/16/2022 4:14 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/16/2022 9:54 AM
Nothing covers other type units such as single home associations, side by side duplexes/town home associations, etc. Though not totally exact, it can be said that if you have a shared elevator you fall under the Horizontal Property Act.
?

Isn't the following the South Carolina HOA statute, applicable to many SC single family home HOAs?

https://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t27c030.php

Yes it is applicable. Having said that, if you read it, it is a "toothless" bit of legislation mainly enacted on at request of some 1st time home buyers (in the Myrtle Beach area) who say they got burned when Declarants raise their dues. Even then it does not say the Declarant cannot raise dues. It just says 48 hour notice must be given. I know many behind it wanted owners to be able to vote on a dues increase but that did not happen. The best part of it does say an owner must have access to all association records so no arguing there. Personally, overall I consider it as useless as tits on a bull.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/17/2022 9:57 AM
In 2010, three directors Manny, Moe and Jack were the three highest votes getters and will serve a two year term. Minnie and Mickey came in fourth and fifth and will serve a one year term. In 2011, Minnie and Mickey's directors positions are up for election and thee association will hold an election for two seats for a two year term. In 2012, Manny, Moe and Jack's term will be up for election and the association should be conducting an election for three seats again for two years terms.

Someone in the association needs to keep track of the directors and their terms.

Just trying to understand if this means that after the two year term they can serve again if elected? Or does this mean 2 years is the limit?
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 10:01 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/17/2022 9:57 AM
In 2010, three directors Manny, Moe and Jack were the three highest votes getters and will serve a two year term. Minnie and Mickey came in fourth and fifth and will serve a one year term. In 2011, Minnie and Mickey's directors positions are up for election and thee association will hold an election for two seats for a two year term. In 2012, Manny, Moe and Jack's term will be up for election and the association should be conducting an election for three seats again for two years terms.

Someone in the association needs to keep track of the directors and their terms.


Does this mean that manny, moe and jack can be re-elected to the same positions after their term ends?

Reading the bylaws further I found this section. Does this mean the president can't be president for more than 1 year?:

Section 1. Enumeration of Officers. The officers of the Master Association shall be a
President and Vice-President, who shall at all times be members of the Board of Directors, a Secretary
and a Treasurer, and such other officers as the Board may from time to time by resolution establish.

Section 2. Election of Officers. The election of officers shall take place at the first meeting
of the Board of Directors following each annual meeting of the Members.

Section 3. Term. The officers of the Master Association shall be elected annually by the
Board and each shall hold office for one (1) year unless he shall sooner resign, or shall be removed, or
otherwise be disqualified to serve.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The "new" Board every year selects officers--officers' terms are for one year, but nothing prevents them form serving a gain & again if the Boards votes for them.

Directors serve for two years in the way that Max explains. Owners elect directors and the can be re-elected repeatedly UNLESS your bylaws set term limits. Apparently they do not. In CA, all directors must be owners.

CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2022 11:23 AM
The "new" Board every year selects officers--officers' terms are for one year, but nothing prevents them form serving a gain & again if the Boards votes for them.

Directors serve for two years in the way that Max explains. Owners elect directors and the can be re-elected repeatedly UNLESS your bylaws set term limits. Apparently they do not. In CA, all directors must be owners.


Thank you. So if our directors were just elected/re-elected last summer, then theoretically we should have an election this year for 2 seats based on this below?

At the 2010 annual meeting of the Association, the three (3) candidates
receiving the highest number of votes shall be elected to serve a two (2) year term and the two (2)
candidates receiving the next highest votes shall be elected to serve a one (1) year term. At each annual
meeting thereafter, the successor shall be elected to serve a two (2) year term.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Being this is 2022, there shoukld be three seats up for election.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 9:06 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 03/17/2022 8:58 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/16/2022 9:25 PM
I have never managed a property that has term limits written into the Bylaws.

As far as elections, very possible that there is no turnover because of the sheer size of the HOA, (500 homes) and trying to achieve quorum, which, in a majority of instances is at least 50%. My association hadn't opened ballots in 8 years until we eliminated quorum, using the personal advise of the author of www.davis-stirling.com.


F.Y.I...Our docs state that no Board member can serve more than two terms. (2 year terms.) After that they must be off the Board for at least one year before serving again. I have mixed feelings on if this is a good thing or not.


I definitely wish ours stated that.
If term limits existed, then I think the probability of an COA/HOA ending up in receivership is higher.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Max probably is right about the math. At any rate, it's time to start dining up your ducks and decide among your group that wants change to get active to learn more, to meet and strategize so that you can maybe win all three open seats. It is NOT too early. Are either of the old timers up for re-election?

One way to find out is to read the meeting minutes of the last two annual meetings, which is when elections are generally held.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2022 7:45 PM
Max probably is right about the math. At any rate, it's time to start dining up your ducks and decide among your group that wants change to get active to learn more, to meet and strategize so that you can maybe win all three open seats. It is NOT too early. Are either of the old timers up for re-election?

One way to find out is to read the meeting minutes of the last two annual meetings, which is when elections are generally held.

I’d love to read the meeting minutes of the annual meetings. However they’re not posted.
SarahV4 (California)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Maybe term limits are more rare than I thought. Our associating allows for 3 2-year consecutive terms, then you must take a break. (I think just a yea, but no one ever seems to come back for more after 6 years.... )

Per the bylaws you quoted, there should be 3 or 4 seats up every single year. There should be a "general notice" about number of seats available at least 30 days before a candidate nomination deadline. (https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5115#axzz2CR2ljirY). Nothing you quoted appears to limit the number of terms, only that they must be re-elected every 2 years for director positions, and yearly (by the board, not members) for officer positions.

It seems that your HOA is using a bulletin board for general notice, so you should pay attention to the bulletin board. The board should post election information there. It may be inconvenient to you for them to put it there, but it is legal. If you have good support for your views, you should be able to get some candidates on the board via election. If there are 3 seats up, it will take 2 years (at least) to get a majority in your favor, but just having the voice of your perspective on the board should help a lot.

And also, it may be helpful to let them know you are interested in election information, in case they have not been following the election rules. I think these updated election laws just came into enforcement in 2020 or so. Do it politely and assuming good faith, but mention the "new" election guidelines and ask what their plan is. There is a reasonable chance they are already meeting the letter of the law even if they aren't making things as transparent and easy as possible for members (as they seem to be used to operating w/out member elections influencing their activity).
SarahV4 (California)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 7:49 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2022 7:45 PM
Max probably is right about the math. At any rate, it's time to start dining up your ducks and decide among your group that wants change to get active to learn more, to meet and strategize so that you can maybe win all three open seats. It is NOT too early. Are either of the old timers up for re-election?

One way to find out is to read the meeting minutes of the last two annual meetings, which is when elections are generally held.


I’d love to read the meeting minutes of the annual meetings. However they’re not posted.

You should request them. Legally they should be keeping them, and legally you should have access to them. Requesting the last 2 years of annual meeting minutes is a relatively low bar that most associations should be able to meet without issue, and should get you the info you want. (You have a right to a lot more minutes/records, but requesting the minimum you need is most likely to be successful in a short timeline.)
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SarahV4 on 03/17/2022 10:26 PM
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 7:49 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2022 7:45 PM
Max probably is right about the math. At any rate, it's time to start dining up your ducks and decide among your group that wants change to get active to learn more, to meet and strategize so that you can maybe win all three open seats. It is NOT too early. Are either of the old timers up for re-election?

One way to find out is to read the meeting minutes of the last two annual meetings, which is when elections are generally held.


I’d love to read the meeting minutes of the annual meetings. However they’re not posted.


You should request them. Legally they should be keeping them, and legally you should have access to them. Requesting the last 2 years of annual meeting minutes is a relatively low bar that most associations should be able to meet without issue, and should get you the info you want. (You have a right to a lot more minutes/records, but requesting the minimum you need is most likely to be successful in a short timeline.)

I’ve been repeatedly asking for february minutes with no response. We just switched to a new management company last year and the manager is awful with communication and responsiveness.
CaliF (California)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SarahV4 on 03/17/2022 10:26 PM
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 7:49 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2022 7:45 PM
Max probably is right about the math. At any rate, it's time to start dining up your ducks and decide among your group that wants change to get active to learn more, to meet and strategize so that you can maybe win all three open seats. It is NOT too early. Are either of the old timers up for re-election?

One way to find out is to read the meeting minutes of the last two annual meetings, which is when elections are generally held.


I’d love to read the meeting minutes of the annual meetings. However they’re not posted.


You should request them. Legally they should be keeping them, and legally you should have access to them. Requesting the last 2 years of annual meeting minutes is a relatively low bar that most associations should be able to meet without issue, and should get you the info you want. (You have a right to a lot more minutes/records, but requesting the minimum you need is most likely to be successful in a short timeline.)

Is there a way to find out how many votes each director received in previous elections or is that not legal?
SarahV4 (California)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 10:31 PM
Posted By SarahV4 on 03/17/2022 10:26 PM
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 7:49 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2022 7:45 PM
Max probably is right about the math. At any rate, it's time to start dining up your ducks and decide among your group that wants change to get active to learn more, to meet and strategize so that you can maybe win all three open seats. It is NOT too early. Are either of the old timers up for re-election?

One way to find out is to read the meeting minutes of the last two annual meetings, which is when elections are generally held.


I’d love to read the meeting minutes of the annual meetings. However they’re not posted.


You should request them. Legally they should be keeping them, and legally you should have access to them. Requesting the last 2 years of annual meeting minutes is a relatively low bar that most associations should be able to meet without issue, and should get you the info you want. (You have a right to a lot more minutes/records, but requesting the minimum you need is most likely to be successful in a short timeline.)


Is there a way to find out how many votes each director received in previous elections or is that not legal?

I think this is within your right to request (not sure the specifics, but election info has to be retained for some period), but (based on long terms) it seems likely that there have not been contested elections in your HOA recently. If there are not more candidates nominated than number of seats up for election, then there is no election. The nominees just become the directors with no vote required. In the past, there was no requirement for the board to advertise open positions, and some boards operated with only filling seats (by hand picking nominees) when board members left the board voluntarily or by moving. Have you ever been aware of being asked to vote in an election?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SarahV4 on 03/17/2022 11:15 PM
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 10:31 PM
Posted By SarahV4 on 03/17/2022 10:26 PM
Posted By CaliF on 03/17/2022 7:49 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2022 7:45 PM
Max probably is right about the math. At any rate, it's time to start dining up your ducks and decide among your group that wants change to get active to learn more, to meet and strategize so that you can maybe win all three open seats. It is NOT too early. Are either of the old timers up for re-election?

One way to find out is to read the meeting minutes of the last two annual meetings, which is when elections are generally held.


I’d love to read the meeting minutes of the annual meetings. However they’re not posted.


You should request them. Legally they should be keeping them, and legally you should have access to them. Requesting the last 2 years of annual meeting minutes is a relatively low bar that most associations should be able to meet without issue, and should get you the info you want. (You have a right to a lot more minutes/records, but requesting the minimum you need is most likely to be successful in a short timeline.)


Is there a way to find out how many votes each director received in previous elections or is that not legal?


I think this is within your right to request (not sure the specifics, but election info has to be retained for some period), but (based on long terms) it seems likely that there have not been contested elections in your HOA recently. If there are not more candidates nominated than number of seats up for election, then there is no election. The nominees just become the directors with no vote required. In the past, there was no requirement for the board to advertise open positions, and some boards operated with only filling seats (by hand picking nominees) when board members left the board voluntarily or by moving. Have you ever been aware of being asked to vote in an election?

Only once six BOD elections did we have more people running (4) then spots open (3) so only that year did we hold an election as in voting and voted counted.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The minutes from the last annual meeting may not have been approved yet as they don't need to be until the next annual meeting. So you want the minutes from the previous two years annual meetings. If not posted, request form the PM in writing. .

Vote counts in CA are required to be posted on a "general notice" and noted in the next board meeting minutes. It's possible that they're in the first board meeting following the annual meeting, which is called an organizational meeting. It must be open to owners as it' a board meeting when the new Board vote on officers.

With an HOA of your size, aren't minutes posted on a website, CaliF??? They are required to be kept forever. You must request them in wiring form

If 3 are up for election and you get your three in, you WILL have a majority on the board. Even if you get only 2 on a 5 member board, you still can get a lot done and keep the Board honest, too. It's possible that an existing director will side with the new ones.

But I do now see, CaliF that you have a lot to learn. This circles us back to Augie's advice to read Davis-stirling.com on elections.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
CaliF

The results of an election MUST be reported to the membership WITHIN 15 days of the election via "general notice".

As provided for in Civil Code §5120(b), the tabulated results of an election must be:

--promptly reported to the board of directors,
--recorded in the minutes of the next meeting of the board,
--made available for review by the membership, and
--within 15 days of the election, reported to the membership via general notice.

Civil Code § 4045. Providing General Delivery or Notice.

(a) If a provision of this act requires “general delivery” or “general notice,” the document shall be provided by one or more of the following methods:

(1) Any method provided for delivery of an individual notice pursuant to Section 4040.
(2) Inclusion in a billing statement, newsletter, or other document that is delivered by one of the methods provided in this section.

(3) Posting the printed document in a prominent location that is accessible to all members, if the location has been designated for the posting of general notices by the association in the annual policy statement, prepared pursuant to Section 5310.

(4) If the association broadcasts television programming for the purpose of distributing information on association business to its members, by inclusion in the programming.
(5) If the association maintains an internet website for the purpose of distributing information on association business to its members, by posting the notice on the association's internet website in a prominent location that is accessible to all members if designated as a location for posting general notices in the annual policy statement prepared pursuant to Section 5310.
(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), if a member requests to receive general notices by individual delivery, all general notices to that member, given under this section, shall be delivered pursuant to Section 4040. The option provided in this subdivision shall be described in the annual policy statement prepared pursuant to Section 5310.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Thanks for elaborating on my above, Max, and for citing CA Civil Code. To further elaborate, for CaliF, note that Civl Code specifies the "tabulation" must be posted, not just the results. In other word the Board simply list the candidates and write: Lou: elected; Kim, elected, Chris, elected; Terry, not elected.
The list must give the number of votes each candidate received.

So, CaliF, as I suggested above, in writing, request the board meeting minutes that directly followed the Annual meeting. I don't get why they're not posted on your website????

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