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ThomasP13 (Ohio)
Posts: 87
Posted:
A self-managed COA's Board decides it wants to form a property maintenance committee of interested Owners who will do the mowing and landscaping needed. As this would have to be done regardless, it decides to pay whatever members pitch in and work for doing so, and will 1099 any who receive money from the Association.

What are the liability risks/concerns?

Does the decision to pay them affect this? If so, what's the difference between this situation - the Association paying an Owner to do something the Association needs done - and paying an Officer, such as the Treasurer, for the work they do?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Always hire someone with bonded and insured. Whether or not they are an owner/member, they still should have a business license.

Former HOA President
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
What Melissa said.

I know you want to save money (which I'm sure is the main reason behind this), but I'd be concerned about injury (e.g. someone pertaining his or while from stepping into a hole while mowing the lawn), scrambling to get a replacement if the person who's supposed take leaves this week doesn't or refuses because she's honked off with the board about something else). Finally there are the homeowners who will try to get their association assessments reduced because they're shoveling snow for the association. That could mess up the budget.

And how do you fire the people who do an awful job? These are association members, so are you ready to deal with the "You can't fire me so I'm not going to pay my assessments until You reimburse me for extra stuff I did.". Of course , he probably didn't ask permission....

If your question is about risk, the people you really need to speak to are at the association insurance , and maybe the association attorney. This decision could affect your coverage and the premium, and not in a good way.

Self management can work, but don't be cheap. If I work all day, it's one thing for me to work in my own garden when I get home, but to get out and mow the common area lawn????

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Hey, I just remembered you have another conversation where you have former board members who haven't or refuse to turn over association records, nor does it appear you know what records they even have? And now your board is considering having homeowners do the landscaping?????

I recall another conversation (not yours), where Cathy made some great comments about volunteers in general and why it can be problematic to rely on what you think will be an endless supply of. people willing to do the work. You may want to read through some of the older conversations to see if you can find it, read it and note the pitfalls. Him not saying this is your community, but you don't know if things will change. Hell, you may not be on the board in a few years....

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Agree with the bonded, licensed and insured.

If you insist on using volunteers to do physical labor, then you need to carry workers comp insurance in addition to liability. Unskilled workers can hurt themselves, hurt others, and damage the common elements or people's personal property. It's very different from paying someone who sits in front of a computer, although all of your volunteers should be covered by workers comp or equivalent.

Soapbox, or Why I Believe Using Volunteers is Short-sighted

* You don't get professional quality work. Nor do you have any kinds of warranties or guarantees - in fact unprofessional work may void any existing warranties that you do have. Nor do you have any recourse if your workers wake up one morning and say "the heck with it".

* Volunteer labor is not "free". In addition to insurance, you'll also pay in the future for poorly done work. Volunteers also require hands-on management from the board, unlike professional work crews who have their own supervisors.

* It's not sustainable. Just because you have a few eager beavers now is no guarantee that you'll have some in the future. Most people don't buy condos in order to do yard work or to have any kind of unpaid side hustle or time commitment.

* It misleads homeowners about the true cost of ownership by "hiding" essential expenses. In addition, it makes it more difficult to raise assessments to their proper levels in the future because you've been living in dreamland. This last is especially worrisome for those communities that require homeowner approval of assessment increases.

* You're setting up future boards for conflict and controversy with it's finally time to pay the piper. And the piper always needs to be paid.

In short, you get what you pay for, and the cheapskate spends the most.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Two items I forgot:

Volunteers enjoy some important legal protections through the Volunteer Protection Act (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-105publ19/pdf/PLAW-105publ19.pdf). If you pay them, they're no longer volunteers - knowledgeable folks may decide that you're not paying them enough to take that risk.

Also, in addition to workers comp insurance, you should get a signed Release of Liability form from each volunteer. That way you'll have some additional protection when they get hurt and sue the HOA for their medical expenses.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
And a final thought...

One issue we've had with volunteers, committees, and the like is that homeowners can believe that their roles give them the same authority as the board. If you have homeowners doing yard work, then they'll feel free to do whatever yard work they think should be done. Or they'll make other decisions that are the responsibility of the board, all without bothering to inform anyone.

(We had a couple homeowners make up a parking notice, add the property manager's name ("on behalf of the board") and distribute it around the community. We found out about it when angry homeowners called the PM's office and the office of the builder who built the homes in this community! Good times...)

It's a recipe for chaos unless you spend time riding herd on your volunteers. And then you'll get hurt feelings, angry words, and people stomping off in high dudgeon. Board members get enough of that nonsense without adding to it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I used to hold "Volunteer days" a few times a year if there was a need or interest. It would something like cleaning the pool furniture. Fixing the flower garden at the entrance. Something simple to clean up the place. Even had the kids involved. We are not talking projects which needed professionals. Just simple cleaning or organizing for a day.

This let people get involved and meet. Have people the feeling they could help the place. A day or weekend for a few small things is not bad. Like have people do their own yards and houses. Just keep the liability down.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ThomasP13 on 03/13/2022 10:05 PM

Does the decision to pay them affect this? If so, what's the difference between this situation - the Association paying an Owner to do something the Association needs done - and paying an Officer, such as the Treasurer, for the work they do?


Yes.

Paying someone (or waiving assessments which shouldn't be done but equates to the same thing) has the individual waiving any rights under the federal Volunteer Protection Act of 1997.

Make sure that they know that.

Additionally, a 1099 might not be proper.
It could be considered that they are employees of the Association, requiring a W-2. Additionally, now the Association is subject to all the payroll taxes a regular business is subject to.

See: Independent Contractor (Self-Employed) or Employee? from the IRS
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Thomas

My initial blush on such a group is a liability issue. All you need is one ahole (and each HOA as a few) to sue.
BancsS
Posts: 269
Posted:
In my former HOA volunteers did the mowing and trimming. It is about 25 stand alone homes that cover several acres. It consists of roadways and areas around a couple of ponds, and the entry to the development. Sorry I can't be more accurate on the amount of mowing but it is a lot. The HOA owns the tractor mower and the shed that houses it. Gas and maintenance comes from the HOA funds. Some of the volunteers are board members. No payment is made to the volunteers and dues are collected from them just as everyone else. It seems to work very well but there may be issues behind the scenes that I am not aware of. The volunteers are mostly retired fellows who enjoy doing it. From my point of observation, many hours are spent by these gentleman getting the mowing done. It appeared to be ongoing during the growing season. The volunteers also keep the fencing repaired and are diligent in maintaining the sanitary sewer. Professionals are called when issues arise that is beyond their expertise.

This arrangement works pretty well but it may not be feasible for many HOAs. Having able-bodied mostly retired fellows in the volunteer pool is what makes it work.

ThomasP13 (Ohio)
Posts: 87
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/14/2022 7:57 AM
And a final thought...

One issue we've had with volunteers, committees, and the like is that homeowners can believe that their roles give them the same authority as the board. If you have homeowners doing yard work, then they'll feel free to do whatever yard work they think should be done. Or they'll make other decisions that are the responsibility of the board, all without bothering to inform anyone.

(We had a couple homeowners make up a parking notice, add the property manager's name ("on behalf of the board") and distribute it around the community. We found out about it when angry homeowners called the PM's office and the office of the builder who built the homes in this community! Good times...)

It's a recipe for chaos unless you spend time riding herd on your volunteers. And then you'll get hurt feelings, angry words, and people stomping off in high dudgeon. Board members get enough of that nonsense without adding to it.


This is exactly the situation I have to solve for. Except, he also bills the Association for the work he does and gives his invoice directly to the bookkeeper, who writes him a check. We've stopped the check part. Now we need to deal with the work part.

ThomasP13 (Ohio)
Posts: 87
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/14/2022 2:39 PM
Thomas

My initial blush on such a group is a liability issue. All you need is one ahole (and each HOA as a few) to sue.


Yes, that position here has already been spoken for.

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