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JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Our HOA was turned over from the developer 2.5 years ago. There is a requirement that all houses have a post lamp near the street (verbiage pasted below). 2 houses are missing post lamps, and a significant number of others have the post lamp near the house. The verbiage dictates install at "right of way" and I think "within 25' of street" would have been more clear, but that is not really the problem. Most homes were built while the developer controlled the subdivision (all homes by custom builders, not the developer) and I assume the builder just told the electrician to install a post lamp, and no one actually read the CCRs for the ones installed incorrectly. Houses have a 75-100 foot setback, so the difference

Anyway, at our annual meeting the HOA board indicated that since they don't know what the developer did, they are just going to not enforce the incorrect location of the post lamps. They will enforce against those houses missing post lamps.

1. My understanding is that a future board could choose to enforce the rules as written. So ignoring it for now is just abdicating responsibility. I assume the board could grant exceptions/variance to every out of compliance home? Our board seems to have no idea what variances might have been previously granted by the developer, I assume this would have to be tracked.
2. I assume another option is to change the CCRs so the location requirement is no longer so restrictive?
3. If the homeowners want the board to enforce location, how do they get the board to do their job?

So what would "you" do if you were in charge? Many neighbors that paid to have post lamps installed in the proper location are annoyed that they paid to do this, and others will get a pass.

“14.0 EXTERIOR LIGHTING
14.1 Every house shall have a carriage light and post at least six (6) feet in height at the right-of-way line as detailed in Exhibit A-1. Exceptions for panhandle lots or any other exceptions must be submitted to the Board of Trustees or appointed Design Review Committee. All post lights shall have a photo cell and remain lit during all hours of darkness.
14.2 No post lights of any kind shall be allowed along the narrow flag area; however, ground level lights to illuminate the driveway are allowed but not required. The carriage light shall remain lit during all hours of darkness unless a variance is approved."

NOTE – we have no flag lots or panhandle lots – Exhibit A is just the model number of the light and an image
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
If it's been 2.5 years past the takeover, might the developer still be around somewhere? If so, try contacting them to find out what they did or didn't do, so you can stop guessing.

In the meantime, someone should walk (or drive) around the community and see exactly how many homes are out of compliance and how. You could hire someone to do this, or if you have a property manager, ask him or her to get someone. Make a list of how each house is out of compliance, as in X number of homes are missing post lamps, and here's a list of those addresses).

Once you know the extent of the problem, you could notify the homeowners and ask if they received a variance from the developer (if it's still around you might ask if they have a record and send copies to the property manager). Otherwise, they should have something in writing, so send copies to the property manager for the home's permanent file. If a variance was granted to a significant number of homes, it may be easier to grandfather in those homes until the lamp needs to be replaced, and then the replacement will have to comply with that CCR.

Some research on how much it would cost to bring the home in compliance would also help - the owner would have to pay for it, but if you have a lot of houses, perhaps the bord can negotiate a deal with a vendor to install them at a discounted rate.

Yes, you could also talk to the homeowners about amending the CCRs to drop the location requirement, since they'd have to approve any changes anyway. Personally, I think there are more things to worry about than a post lamp - some rules look great at the time the homes are built, but as you get more diversity in the homeowners, you may find some people don't get hot and bothered over the location of a post lamp.

Do the research first and then you could have a town hall meeting to discuss the options and the homeowners can vote accordingly on where to go from here.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Thank you for the reply, and yes I agree many things are more important.

But isn't a board obligated to do something? If the rule exists, don't they either have to enforce it, create waivers or change the CCRs?

If the board fails to address this, aren't they guilty of not doing their job? It was my understanding that board can't knowingly fail to enforce the rules.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Does your state have any statutes about disclosures of covenant violations at time of sale?

Yes, a board is supposed to enforce the covenants, but the only consequences are those imposed by the membership. Presumably the people with light posts in the wrong place aren't going to file suit because they weren't forced to move them. The ones with correctly placed posts might sue on principle. You'll have to assess the risk of that happening vs the effort and expense involved in getting all those people to move their lights.

If it's not something you want to enforce, amending the covenants is the best route.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971
Posted:
I regret tossing even more complications at this situation, but: there may be local building codes that also weigh in on the presence / location of these lamps.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:

Just choosing to not enforce the CCR's is begging for problems and litigation. Either issue an official Variance or amend the CCR's to correct the situation or actually cite and fix the problem/missing lamps (even if it means the HOA does the work themselves and then bills the Member through a Limited Assessment to reimburse the cost incurred.

As Barbara pointed out, if a new owner purchased the lot already with a 'violation' but was not informed of it, you'll have a big problem. You may have lost your ability to cite and correct...

Also, need more details about the code violation. The HOA cannot enforce City Code...the City needs to enforce that. Is the CCR requirement violate code? or do the lamps that are not in compliance with CCR violate code?
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
The only code in dispute is a CCR detail - there is no county ordinance, and I don't think anyone intentionally violated this, just most people don't read the CCRs when the purchase a lot or house.

but that is an interesting point. If someone buys a house with a CCR violation, and no one knew it until the board decides to enforce it, isn't the new owner on the hook too?

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/10/2022 1:08 PM
The only code in dispute is a CCR detail - there is no county ordinance, and I don't think anyone intentionally violated this, just most people don't read the CCRs when the purchase a lot or house.

but that is an interesting point. If someone buys a house with a CCR violation, and no one knew it until the board decides to enforce it, isn't the new owner on the hook too?


out of curiousity, which side of the question are you on? Do you want all lamps at the front of the drive? Are you OK issuing Variances? Are you and majority of Members ok with amending the CCR's to relax the requirements?
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 03/10/2022 1:13 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/10/2022 1:08 PM
The only code in dispute is a CCR detail - there is no county ordinance, and I don't think anyone intentionally violated this, just most people don't read the CCRs when the purchase a lot or house.

but that is an interesting point. If someone buys a house with a CCR violation, and no one knew it until the board decides to enforce it, isn't the new owner on the hook too?



out of curiousity, which side of the question are you on? Do you want all lamps at the front of the drive? Are you OK issuing Variances? Are you and majority of Members ok with amending the CCR's to relax the requirements?

I don't really care. My light is in the proper place but my wife likes them for lighting the street when walking the dog. I am more curious about how an HOA board should/could handle this mainly because our HOA president will insist people screen their AC unit with bushes (no requirement for this) but ignore an obvious requirement. And this is a president that has personal favorites and others he picks on. I just want the HOA board to enforce any rules written or strike them from CCRs if they are not going to enforce.

I am tired of selective enforcement and would like a solution that works regardless of which way it goes. I am happy for the homeowners to vote on which way it should go.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/10/2022 1:21 PM
Posted By AdamL1 on 03/10/2022 1:13 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/10/2022 1:08 PM
The only code in dispute is a CCR detail - there is no county ordinance, and I don't think anyone intentionally violated this, just most people don't read the CCRs when the purchase a lot or house.

but that is an interesting point. If someone buys a house with a CCR violation, and no one knew it until the board decides to enforce it, isn't the new owner on the hook too?



out of curiousity, which side of the question are you on? Do you want all lamps at the front of the drive? Are you OK issuing Variances? Are you and majority of Members ok with amending the CCR's to relax the requirements?


I don't really care. My light is in the proper place but my wife likes them for lighting the street when walking the dog. I am more curious about how an HOA board should/could handle this mainly because our HOA president will insist people screen their AC unit with bushes (no requirement for this) but ignore an obvious requirement. And this is a president that has personal favorites and others he picks on. I just want the HOA board to enforce any rules written or strike them from CCRs if they are not going to enforce.

I am tired of selective enforcement and would like a solution that works regardless of which way it goes. I am happy for the homeowners to vote on which way it should go.

Variance, Enforcement, or Amendment. These are the only options.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
You have to ask the board members and the property management company why they signed off to release the bonds if there was still items to be installed in the community.

You may be SOL to go after the developer. I would contact an attorney for options. This may be a construction defect or breach of contract issue.
Are you a BOD or the a property owner? If you are an owner, you would have to hire an attorney yourself.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/10/2022 9:21 AM
Thank you for the reply, and yes I agree many things are more important.

But isn't a board obligated to do something? If the rule exists, don't they either have to enforce it, create waivers or change the CCRs?

If the board fails to address this, aren't they guilty of not doing their job? It was my understanding that board can't knowingly fail to enforce the rules.


Yes the board is obligated, they were supposed to walk the community and mark things that need to be repaired, replaced and added before they sign off to release the bonds on the community to the developer.
The BOD screwed up.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/10/2022 1:08 PM
The only code in dispute is a CCR detail - there is no county ordinance, and I don't think anyone intentionally violated this, just most people don't read the CCRs when the purchase a lot or house.

but that is an interesting point. If someone buys a house with a CCR violation, and no one knew it until the board decides to enforce it, isn't the new owner on the hook too?


It depends.

The lot is what is in violation, not the owner. So a new owner would inherit any violations on the lot. But, if you are in a state that requires resale disclosures, and you didn’t disclose, you may have forfeited your ability to enforce - or at least made it a lot more difficult.
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 03/10/2022 3:55 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/10/2022 1:08 PM
The only code in dispute is a CCR detail - there is no county ordinance, and I don't think anyone intentionally violated this, just most people don't read the CCRs when the purchase a lot or house.

but that is an interesting point. If someone buys a house with a CCR violation, and no one knew it until the board decides to enforce it, isn't the new owner on the hook too?



It depends.

The lot is what is in violation, not the owner. So a new owner would inherit any violations on the lot. But, if you are in a state that requires resale disclosures, and you didn’t disclose, you may have forfeited your ability to enforce - or at least made it a lot more difficult.

The state does have a residential property disclosure form - but just because an owner selling a house doesn't know about the violation, it shouldn't let the new owner off the hook, right?

The disclosure form says it is not a warranty - if the roof is bad, and the old owner didn't know about it, the new owner is responsible. I would think the same is true for any HOA violation that a previous board has not enforced.
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 03/10/2022 2:43 PM
You have to ask the board members and the property management company why they signed off to release the bonds if there was still items to be installed in the community.

You may be SOL to go after the developer. I would contact an attorney for options. This may be a construction defect or breach of contract issue.
Are you a BOD or the a property owner? If you are an owner, you would have to hire an attorney yourself.

I am just a member of the community. I doubt there were any bonds. This is small neighborhood of single family homes on large pieces of land. No clubhouse, pool, or anything other then a few small patches of grass common areas.

I was just curious how other HOA boards have dealt with something they discovered where a large percent of people are out of compliance with a regulation that was previously unenforced.

For us, I doubt we will get 75% vote to change the CCRs so we are down to either granting those a variance, or making them comply. I say let the members vote which way the board should proceed, but I expect the board will take the path of least resistance and offer a variance to anyone impacted.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 12:42 PM

For us, I doubt we will get 75% vote to change the CCRs so we are down to either granting those a variance, or making them comply.
Do weigh the cost of the HOA's just paying for the installation of the lamp posts vs. paying the HOA attorney to try to 'make them comply.' With a situation this fuzzy, I would not bank on the HOA attorney being successful for a fee less than the cost of installing the lamp posts.
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/11/2022 12:47 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 12:42 PM

For us, I doubt we will get 75% vote to change the CCRs so we are down to either granting those a variance, or making them comply.
Do weigh the cost of the HOA's just paying for the installation of the lamp posts vs. paying the HOA attorney to try to 'make them comply.' With a situation this fuzzy, I would not bank on the HOA attorney being successful for a fee less than the cost of installing the lamp posts.

The HOA board doesn't like to do attorneys and I doubt the board will spend money to move the lamps. Unless the constituents have some way to force the board down a particular path, my assumption is the President will just offer a variance to those affected, regardless of what the majority wants.

I just wanted to confirm that the board simply shouldn't ignore this for another 2 years
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 2:06 PM

I just wanted to confirm that the board simply shouldn't ignore this for another 2 years
FWIW, I looked at the Ohio Disclosure form and tend to think the lack of a paper trail certainly does not help any desire the Board may have to force compliance. Yes, the seller fills out the form, but the form expressly asks about whether the home has any outstanding violations. Since the HOA has not, in many cases here, issued any violations, then buyers bought with arguably less than full disclosure.

I know your covenants likely say that the board has the right to enforce even when it has not previously enforced. Still.

I know this is a messy situation legally. I am not happy for the owners whom the HOA forced to spend money either to put in a lamp post or to re-locate a lamp post. The Board should just try to be honest. As needed, point out that a prior board did xyz. The new board feels differently. Everyone is doing the best they can with a difficult situation.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 2:06 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 03/11/2022 12:47 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 12:42 PM

For us, I doubt we will get 75% vote to change the CCRs so we are down to either granting those a variance, or making them comply.
Do weigh the cost of the HOA's just paying for the installation of the lamp posts vs. paying the HOA attorney to try to 'make them comply.' With a situation this fuzzy, I would not bank on the HOA attorney being successful for a fee less than the cost of installing the lamp posts.


The HOA board doesn't like to do attorneys and I doubt the board will spend money to move the lamps. Unless the constituents have some way to force the board down a particular path, my assumption is the President will just offer a variance to those affected, regardless of what the majority wants.

I just wanted to confirm that the board simply shouldn't ignore this for another 2 years

I'm confused. Do the majority want the posts moved or do the majority want the posts to stay put?

if its the latter, then wouldn't you have a majority to make a quick amendment to the CCR's and change the requirements?
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 2:06 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 03/11/2022 12:47 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 12:42 PM

For us, I doubt we will get 75% vote to change the CCRs so we are down to either granting those a variance, or making them comply.
Do weigh the cost of the HOA's just paying for the installation of the lamp posts vs. paying the HOA attorney to try to 'make them comply.' With a situation this fuzzy, I would not bank on the HOA attorney being successful for a fee less than the cost of installing the lamp posts.


The HOA board doesn't like to do attorneys and I doubt the board will spend money to move the lamps. Unless the constituents have some way to force the board down a particular path, my assumption is the President will just offer a variance to those affected, regardless of what the majority wants.

I just wanted to confirm that the board simply shouldn't ignore this for another 2 years

I'm confused. Do the majority want the posts moved or do the majority want the posts to stay put?

if its the latter, then wouldn't you have a majority to make a quick amendment to the CCR's and change the requirements?
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
I disagree that the board is abdicating their responsibility. Recognizing that a covenant should not be enforced, either due to it being abandoned or it having not been enforced fairly, is being responsible.

In the end, a board is responsible for doing whatever they believe is best for the association.
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 03/11/2022 2:23 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 2:06 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 03/11/2022 12:47 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 12:42 PM

For us, I doubt we will get 75% vote to change the CCRs so we are down to either granting those a variance, or making them comply.
Do weigh the cost of the HOA's just paying for the installation of the lamp posts vs. paying the HOA attorney to try to 'make them comply.' With a situation this fuzzy, I would not bank on the HOA attorney being successful for a fee less than the cost of installing the lamp posts.


The HOA board doesn't like to do attorneys and I doubt the board will spend money to move the lamps. Unless the constituents have some way to force the board down a particular path, my assumption is the President will just offer a variance to those affected, regardless of what the majority wants.

I just wanted to confirm that the board simply shouldn't ignore this for another 2 years


I'm confused. Do the majority want the posts moved or do the majority want the posts to stay put?

if its the latter, then wouldn't you have a majority to make a quick amendment to the CCR's and change the requirements?

We require 75% of all members to vote yes for any CCR changes - a majority either way isn't enough to change the CCRs. The community hasn't decided yet anyway - the feelings appear to be mixed.
JohnM93 (Ohio)
Posts: 57
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 03/11/2022 2:38 PM
I disagree that the board is abdicating their responsibility. Recognizing that a covenant should not be enforced, either due to it being abandoned or it having not been enforced fairly, is being responsible.

In the end, a board is responsible for doing whatever they believe is best for the association.

That seems to be contrary to the idea that the CCRs are a contract between 2 parties. If I as a homeowner expect rules to be enforced, why should others get a pass? This feels like selective enforcement and every discussion I have read on HOAs doesn't allow for this.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Individual owners can enforce the covenants on each other as well. If it’s that important to you, do it.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Is this a "hard" problem? That is, do the misplaced lights cause safety issues? Or do the odd locations cause maintenance issues (tree roots undermining structures or water pipes, or location interferes with trimming, etc.)?

Or is this a "soft" problem? That is, is it community esthetics, and how noticeable is it? Do visitors see the misplaced trees and recoil in horror? Or does it cause enforcement issues (likely yes in this case)? Or is it one of those things that certain homeowners will use to nurture grievances and conflict (sounds like it may be also yes)?

IMHO, if there are no "hard" problems but only "soft" ones, and there are many instances of the problem, and the builders are responsible (not misbehaving owners), then that would suggest modifying the CC&Rs and being done with it. I think enforcement is a non-starter at this point because of the numbers of violations and because homeowners didn't cause the problem (except maybe through ignorance). Also, if this is truly only about esthetics, the board risks spending a whole lot of time and effort on something that really isn't very important in the grand scheme of things - the board will have many more important issues to deal with that will need their attention.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamL1 on 03/11/2022 2:23 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 2:06 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 03/11/2022 12:47 PM
Posted By JohnM93 on 03/11/2022 12:42 PM

For us, I doubt we will get 75% vote to change the CCRs so we are down to either granting those a variance, or making them comply.
Do weigh the cost of the HOA's just paying for the installation of the lamp posts vs. paying the HOA attorney to try to 'make them comply.' With a situation this fuzzy, I would not bank on the HOA attorney being successful for a fee less than the cost of installing the lamp posts.


The HOA board doesn't like to do attorneys and I doubt the board will spend money to move the lamps. Unless the constituents have some way to force the board down a particular path, my assumption is the President will just offer a variance to those affected, regardless of what the majority wants.

I just wanted to confirm that the board simply shouldn't ignore this for another 2 years


I'm confused. Do the majority want the posts moved or do the majority want the posts to stay put?

if its the latter, then wouldn't you have a majority to make a quick amendment to the CCR's and change the requirements?

I do not think the majority care, just the OP.

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