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TonyN2 (Illinois)
Posts: 62
Posted:
This is a condo building residential association within a master association 5 building complex. I am the president of our residential association.

An owner called me saying his 70 year old Mom is driving from 15 hours away to visit, and then making a 1 day stop at their unit, then going about her way for another 20 hour drive to her final destinatio the next day.
The owner's mom has a dog, which he claims is medically perscribed to her (although no documents to prove this have been collected and I doubt it). The owner's mom will come in just 7 days from now.

The rules of the property are clear that there are no pets allowed anywhere on the property. But, I really feel for their situation and know it would be a huge disservice to not allow her to bring her dog in for one day.
Normally when something of this nature happens, these are the only solutions I can come up with:

1. Stick to the rules and strongly advise them not to do it.
2. Stick to the rules and tell them if they did it, it would result in a fine of $xx.xx so it's up to them whether to do it or not.
3. Chose to allow them since this situation is unique.

Is #3 and option? If so, who choses which options - does it have to be a board decision?
Justice is telling me to tell them NO, but grace says just this one time.
They were respectful enough to call in and ask rather than just going ahead and doing it. Clearly they are good people to some measure.

Master association declarations, Residential Declarations & Rules about pets all attached to the PDF.

Thanks!
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LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Your governing documents say no pets in the common area not inside the unit, SO! prey tell, how does one get their pet into their unit????
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Give them a warning, in a day it will be cured.
TonyN2 (Illinois)
Posts: 62
Posted:
Teleportation.

Well seriously though, why didn't they just say no pets in the dwelling unit then? Perhaps you can't make such a law so this was a work around?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
There is literal and intent. This is a case where it is not literal but intent. The intent of the rule is to make sure no pets use the common areas as a bathroom. If you own a pet then take it outside the "gates" or keep it inside the home. I think if your translating this rule to be no pets on common area period it's basically saying no pets allowed anywhere.

Former HOA President
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Seriously? I'd do what Max suggested: remind them of the rule and leave it at that.

The board can't officially give the person the OK (because selective enforcement) but in practice few boards would try to go after someone for a one-off (because they wouldn't have enough time to get verification of the violation and because by the time they took action, the violation no longer exists).

We did something similar when a family in my community was moving things into their RV over the weekend. Yes, it was a violation, but the RV was gone after the weekend, and the family had already sold their unit (Sale Pending).
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
Our violation process starts out with a friendly reminder and escalates to hearing/fines after 2 warning letters.

Visiting pet would be gone before the friendly reminder is even mailed.

Your Section 18 of your R&R's specify an exact location when your, I assume, CCR's state with board approval. Your R&R's may be overstepping and may be unenforceable.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 973
Posted:

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson

This is just me: a) the violation has not yet occurred, b) the violation may never occur (plans change, etc). So there’s no justification for you to issue a violation or warning right now.

This being the case: tell them “that’s against the rules - don’t let me see a dog or I’ll be obligated to report it!”

(Frankly, I’m a bit more concerned about a 70yo Mom driving 15-20 hour stretches. But that’s beyond the scope of this forum).

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
ThomasP13 (Ohio)
Posts: 87
Posted:
So, may we assume some owners have inside cats, but no dogs, since dogs need to go outside on a regular basis?

If so, then certainly practice has permitted the transport of a cat in a carrier through the common areas. Perhaps the dog is small enough to be brought into the unit this way.

In any case, doesn't a violation require someone complaining? Wouldn't a reasonable response to the complaint be, "Yes, you're right. I'll be sure it's addressed." And then placed in the circular file?

Wouldn't a judicious reply to the question be something along the lines of, "The Board requires a complaint to be made before acting, and focuses enforcement action toward making sure it doesn't become an on-going problem."?
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 03/08/2022 5:18 AM
Your Section 18 of your R&R's specify an exact location when your, I assume, CCR's state with board approval. Your R&R's may be overstepping and may be unenforceable.
This bothered me too. On the one hand, the covenants say the Board can create reasonable rules about pets in units. Is it reasonable to impose a complete ban? I feel like I saw some case law on the point, leaning in the direction PatJ1 suggests. In other words, I am not sure a court would say a complete ban on pets in units is a "reasonable rule."
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/08/2022 6:24 AM
Posted By PatJ1 on 03/08/2022 5:18 AM
Your Section 18 of your R&R's specify an exact location when your, I assume, CCR's state with board approval. Your R&R's may be overstepping and may be unenforceable.
This bothered me too. On the one hand, the covenants say the Board can create reasonable rules about pets in units. Is it reasonable to impose a complete ban? I feel like I saw some case law on the point, leaning in the direction PatJ1 suggests. In other words, I am not sure a court would say a complete ban on pets in units is a "reasonable rule."

Yeahbut...

In condos it's impossible to get a pet into a unit without taking it through the common elements, and the association does have the ability to regulate what happens in the common elements. And it's almost impossible to contain pets entirely within a unit - noise, odors, damage, etc. will often go beyond the bounds of the unit.

Other areas may be different, but where I live it's almost impossible to find communities that ban pets altogether. People who want to keep animals - for whatever reason - are spoiled for choice. It's people who are afraid of or are allergic to some kinds of animals are the ones who can have problems finding housing.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/08/2022 6:50 AM
And it's almost impossible to contain pets entirely within a unit - noise, odors, damage, etc. will often go beyond the bounds of the unit.
The case law on this turns out to be extensive and easy to pull up. E.g google

cats pets condominium ban site:justia.com

A sample:

The 1994 California Supreme Court decision below strongly supports the position that a Declaration's flat-out ban on pets is a ban on pets; all agreed to this upon buying; don't like it, then move:

Nahrstedt v. Lakeside Village Condominium Assn. (1994) https://law.justia.com/cases/california/supreme-court/4th/8/361.html

The Colorado Appeals Court's opinion linked below treats a situation like the OP's: The Declaration said pets allowed with permission of the Board yada. In this one, the Appeals Court said, no, the Board may not then ban all animals. Notably:

"the board adopted a blanket policy against keeping pets, and denied this petition based solely upon that policy. In so doing, it exceeded its authority."

See https://law.justia.com/cases/colorado/court-of-appeals/1982/81ca0604-0.html

In 1988 the Alaska Supreme Court picked up the baton from Colorado and said, if a covenant prohibits xyz except when the board grants permission, then a flat-out ban by the Board is not allowed:

The O'Bucks also rely on Chateau Village North Condominium Association v. Jordan, 643 P.2d 791 (Colo. App. 1982). The board in that case began a policy of denying all new applications for pets. Cottonwood's Bylaw article VIII, section 1(g), supra, is similar to the bylaw provisions at issue in Chateau Village: "No cats, dogs, or other animal ... shall be kept, maintained, or harbored in the development unless the same in each instance is expressly permitted in writing by the Managing Agent... ." 643 P.2d at 791. Both provisions explicitly prohibit the matter in question without written permission. The court in Chateau Village found in this bylaw provision a right to apply for permission to keep animals and a "duty" on the part of the association "to consider [the owner's] application and apply its discretion in a reasonable and good faith manner." Id. at 792. Because the association had adopted a policy of prohibiting all pets without ruling on the merits of individual applications, the court ordered that the complaint of the association against the owner be dismissed. Id. at 792-93.

See https://law.justia.com/cases/alaska/supreme-court/1988/s-1786-1.html

If I were TonyN2's Board, at some point I'd get a legal opinion on the board-created rule imposing a flat-out ban on pets. She/he can check Illinois case law at justia.com in preparation for a meeting with the attorney.

Else I think CathyA3's point about odors and damage is a good one. Perhaps especially considering property values.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Just guessing here, but based on the wording of the case law, it may depend on the form of the ban - ie. is it in the CC&Rs or is it in a policy or rule adopted by the board?

I think that it would be harder to overturn a ban in the CC&Rs, due to the higher priority of the CC&Rs and to the fact that they're disclosed to buyers (and rules/policies may not be).
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/08/2022 7:33 AM
Just guessing here, but based on the wording of the case law, it may depend on the form of the ban - ie. is it in the CC&Rs or is it in a policy or rule adopted by the board?

I think that it would be harder to overturn a ban in the CC&Rs, due to the higher priority of the CC&Rs and to the fact that they're disclosed to buyers (and rules/policies may not be).
If the CC&Rs have a flat-out, unqualified ban on pets, my take is the owners wanting pets are out of luck, like the California court said.

But where the wording is like that in the OP's Declaration (that is, qualifying that the Board has the authority to approve some pets), I think a Board then creating a rule that bans all pets is unwise. Per what Alaska and Colorado courts have said, I would say such a rule has a good chance of being struck down by a court.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I like the idea of others, Max, Pat, etc. to simply send a warning letter to the unit owner once the dog is on the premises. Also agree that the wording in the documents in odd, vague, etc.

In CA, any HOA, including condos must permit one pet: "Civil Code §4715. Pet Prohibitions. (a) No governing documents shall prohibit the owner of a separate interest within a common interest development from keeping at least one pet within the common interest development, subject to reasonable rules and regulations of the association. This section may not be construed to affect any other rights provided by law to an owner of a separate interest to keep a pet within the development. (b) For purposes of this section, “pet” means any domesticated bird, cat, dog, aquatic animal kept within an aquarium, or other animal as agreed to between the association and the homeowner."

Our multi-story condo permits two dogs, two cats, or one of each. I'd say that about 25% of our residents have at least one dog, many have two.We do have very strict, but reasonable rules about such pets.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/08/2022 7:38 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/08/2022 7:33 AM
Just guessing here, but based on the wording of the case law, it may depend on the form of the ban - ie. is it in the CC&Rs or is it in a policy or rule adopted by the board?

I think that it would be harder to overturn a ban in the CC&Rs, due to the higher priority of the CC&Rs and to the fact that they're disclosed to buyers (and rules/policies may not be).
If the CC&Rs have a flat-out, unqualified ban on pets, my take is the owners wanting pets are out of luck, like the California court said.

But where the wording is like that in the OP's Declaration (that is, qualifying that the Board has the authority to approve some pets), I think a Board then creating a rule that bans all pets is unwise. Per what Alaska and Colorado courts have said, I would say such a rule has a good chance of being struck down by a court.

FWIW, the pet restriction in our declaration has a sentence saying that the board has the right to remove an animal from the premises at the board's sole discretion. However, the restriction also has the usual language about picking up solid waste, requiring the animal to be on a hand-held lease and under the control of the owner when it is on the common elements, no tethering the animal unattended at any time. etc.

So given all this other language in the restriction, I'd have a hard time interpreting the sentence giving the board sole discretion to remove a (single) pet as giving the board the right to ban all pets. The language of the restriction pretty clearly assumes pet ownership will happen and spells out the requirements for same.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/08/2022 7:58 AM
... snippage ...

FWIW, the pet restriction in our declaration has a sentence saying that the board has the right to remove an animal from the premises at the board's sole discretion. However, the restriction also has the usual language about picking up solid waste, requiring the animal to be on a hand-held lease and under the control of the owner when it is on the common elements, no tethering the animal unattended at any time. etc.

So given all this other language in the restriction, I'd have a hard time interpreting the sentence giving the board sole discretion to remove a (single) pet as giving the board the right to ban all pets. The language of the restriction pretty clearly assumes pet ownership will happen and spells out the requirements for same.

Leash! Leash!! (Although I do chuckle at the idea of a land-held lease...)
TonyN2 (Illinois)
Posts: 62
Posted:
I would like to also learn more about this. I am not personally in favor of the current pet rules. Others living in this building for much longer, are though.
How can I prove to them it's overstepping?
TonyN2 (Illinois)
Posts: 62
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/08/2022 6:24 AM
Posted By PatJ1 on 03/08/2022 5:18 AM
Your Section 18 of your R&R's specify an exact location when your, I assume, CCR's state with board approval. Your R&R's may be overstepping and may be unenforceable.
This bothered me too. On the one hand, the covenants say the Board can create reasonable rules about pets in units. Is it reasonable to impose a complete ban? I feel like I saw some case law on the point, leaning in the direction PatJ1 suggests. In other words, I am not sure a court would say a complete ban on pets in units is a "reasonable rule."

I would like to also learn more about this. I am not personally in favor of the current pet rules. Others living in this building for much longer, are though.
How can I prove to them it's overstepping? (Sorry for the double post, I'm fairly new here.)
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Tony

Ignore the situation unless someone else complains. If someone does simply say the unit owner has been warned and let it go at that.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TonyN2 on 03/08/2022 9:40 AM

I would like to also learn more about this. I am not personally in favor of the current pet rules. Others living in this building for much longer, are though. How can I prove to them it's overstepping?
See my other post above for some citations from Colorado and Alaska on this point. These decisions from Colorado and Alaska of course are not binding on Illinois. Still, I think they are likely helpful.

I think these Ohio and Connecticut court decisions concerning flat-out bans on items in the common area are also worth your review, to sharpen your understanding of the legal principles involved here:

Tallis v. Woodrun Place Unit Owners' Ass'n
Court of Appeals of Ohio, Tenth District, Franklin County
Jun 27, 2006
https://casetext.com/case/tallis-v-woodrun-place-unit-owners-assn

Grovenburg v. Rustle Meadow Assocs., LLC, 165 A.3d 193, 174 Conn. App. 18 (2017), https://cite.case.law/a3d/165/193/

I did a quick, advanced layperson's check of Illinois case law and turned up nothing on disputes about pets where per the CCRs, board approval was involved.

I got the outcome on the Alaska decision above wrong. Alaska is somewhat distinguishable, as the ban on TV antennas pertained to common area usage and not the use of the interior of dewellings. Still both the Colorado and Alaska decisions are worth your review, in my opinion.

Tell the Board that you think the COA attorney should weigh in on this. State that you know you are only a layperson, but you have been made aware of the Colorado and Alaska case law above, and you are wondering if the HOA is correct to impose a flat-out ban.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillD16 on 03/08/2022 5:29 AM

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson

This is just me: a) the violation has not yet occurred, b) the violation may never occur (plans change, etc). So there’s no justification for you to issue a violation or warning right now.

This being the case: tell them “that’s against the rules - don’t let me see a dog or I’ll be obligated to report it!”

(Frankly, I’m a bit more concerned about a 70yo Mom driving 15-20 hour stretches. But that’s beyond the scope of this forum).

BillD

this is the way.

AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ThomasP13 on 03/08/2022 5:30 AM
So, may we assume some owners have inside cats, but no dogs, since dogs need to go outside on a regular basis?

If so, then certainly practice has permitted the transport of a cat in a carrier through the common areas. Perhaps the dog is small enough to be brought into the unit this way.

In any case, doesn't a violation require someone complaining? Wouldn't a reasonable response to the complaint be, "Yes, you're right. I'll be sure it's addressed." And then placed in the circular file?

Wouldn't a judicious reply to the question be something along the lines of, "The Board requires a complaint to be made before acting, and focuses enforcement action toward making sure it doesn't become an on-going problem."?

a complaint or an observed violation by leadership/management.
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 03/08/2022 6:24 AM
Posted By PatJ1 on 03/08/2022 5:18 AM
Your Section 18 of your R&R's specify an exact location when your, I assume, CCR's state with board approval. Your R&R's may be overstepping and may be unenforceable.
This bothered me too. On the one hand, the covenants say the Board can create reasonable rules about pets in units. Is it reasonable to impose a complete ban? I feel like I saw some case law on the point, leaning in the direction PatJ1 suggests. In other words, I am not sure a court would say a complete ban on pets in units is a "reasonable rule."

I am leaning this way too.

CCR's say that no pets allowed inside the unit unless there's permission.
CCR's say that any allowed pets are subject to reasonable rules and regulations.
Then there's a rule stating that NO PETS ALLOWED ever.

This seems to be begging for a lawsuit. Outright banning is not reasonable, nor is that even authorized by the CCR's.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Stick to the rules but recognize the law. A therapy or service dog is not a pet. Your governing documents pertaining to pets do not apply.

You are not required to verify a note from the doctor (you may with a therapy animal) so, under the circumstances, I would just take their word for it.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
my vote also goes to the send a warning letter after the fact. the dog will be long gone by then. Additionally, off the record you may want to talk to the owner and ask him to ensure that the dog is taken off the property to do his business. If this is a big outdoor dog, I wouldn't allow it.

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