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FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
Hello.
Our HOA is asking for residents to vote on our prevailing election process at our annual meeting .. Many residents are questioning the reason, and why several changes are contemplated. No one was informed as to why they are being considered.
Any tsoughts appreciated. Attached are the documents with the proposed changes.An attorney has drafted these, and its being challenged by a residents attorney.
Thanks for any thoughts or input.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
The document didn't upload (at least I don't see it) - can you summarize what they are?

As far as the changes are concerned, did you or anyone else ASK why the board thinks this is necessary? What are your issues with the proposals?

I would think the election process is addressed in your documents (usually the Bylaws) and so any amendments to that have to be approved by the residents. If that's the case and people object to one, several or all of them, there's no reason to overthink this - JUST DON'T VOTE FOR THEM (the resident with the attorney could have done that to save time and money, but ok).


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
Thanks for your reply, Sheila. For rome reason I couldn't attach the files.
To Summarize:
1: Board election annual meetings, as provided by the governing documents , have always been held on the second Tuesday of February. The proposed Amendment states that "The Annual Members Meeting shall be held on a date, and place and time determined by The Board Of directors from time to time, provided there shall be an annual meeting every calendar year, and to the extent possible, no later than 13 months after the last annual meeting."

2: There shall be NO nominating Committee, No Nominations From The Floor,and No write in candidates permitted. Any eligible member who indicates an interest in running MUST be placed on the ballot. Elections and Balloting are not requirerd unless more candidates file notices of intent to run than there are vacancies on the Board.

3: The Bylaws may provide for a method of determining the number of directors from time to time. The Board Shall consist of 3 Directors.Directors are required to be members of the ASSOCIATION (Changed from are NOT Required, to be members of the ASSOCIATION. (which is ok.)

FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
PS: No one was informed of the reason for the proposed changes.
FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredW5 on 03/04/2022 10:09 AM
PS: No one was informed of the reason for the proposed changes.

And no one asked until a resident inquired and was told "To incorporate items into amore legible manner"
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Fred

I do not like the proposed changes. I suggest similar to my HOA:

1: Board election annual meetings, as provided by the governing documents , have always been held on the second Tuesday of February. The proposed Amendment states that "The Annual Members Meeting shall be held on a date, and place and time determined by The Board Of directors from time to time, provided there shall be an annual meeting every calendar year, and to the extent possible, no later than 13 months after the last annual meeting."

1: The Annual Meeting will be held on or before 04/15 at a time/location convenient to all members.

2: There shall be NO nominating Committee, No Nominations From The Floor,and No write in candidates permitted. Any eligible member who indicates an interest in running MUST be placed on the ballot. Elections and Balloting are not requirerd unless more candidates file notices of intent to run than there are vacancies on the Board.

2: I especially do not the proposed #2. Candidates may nominate themselves for the floor prior to balloting. Write candidates are allowed.

3: The Bylaws may provide for a method of determining the number of directors from time to time. The Board Shall consist of 3 Directors.Directors are required to be members of the ASSOCIATION (Changed from are NOT Required, to be members of the ASSOCIATION. (which is ok.)

3: The BOD shall consist of 3 to 5 members of the association as determined by the BOD.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Our restated Bylaws are out with voters and include the very same changes of 2 & 3 that Fred's HOA's attorney advises. Our own attorney advised the same changes as do the HOA attorneys who write a website for CA HOAs.

With mail-in voting in CA HOAs and no requirement to be physically present, we always make quorum. Our current Bylaws say noms form the floor ae OK, write-ins are OK. No one has been nominated from the floor in 16 years; no one writes in a name except as an occasional joke.

I don't see how the election date change could bother anyone and it's in our restated Bylaws too. In CA now, directors must be owners of record.

My sense is the proposed changes are reasonable. Why is an owner so p.o.'d that they hired an attorney? What are the objections?

(I can see in HOAs that usually don't have enough candidates, like JohnC's, that nominations from the floor would be good. But, instead he new board at its first meeting can appoint whomever they wish to the Board.)

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Since you're okay with the third part, I'll just address the other two.

**1: Board election annual meetings, as provided by the governing documents , have always been held on the second Tuesday of February. The proposed Amendment states that "The Annual Members Meeting shall be held on a date, and place and time determined by The Board Of directors from time to time, provided there shall be an annual meeting every calendar year, and to the extent possible, no later than 13 months after the last annual meeting."**

Can't see any reasonable objection to this. Why set an arbitrary required date for an annual meeting? All sorts of things can happen to prevent a meeting from taking place - venue availability, manager availability, board availability, a global pandemic...

***2: There shall be NO nominating Committee, No Nominations From The Floor, and No write in candidates permitted. Any eligible member who indicates an interest in running MUST be placed on the ballot. Elections and Balloting are not requirerd unless more candidates file notices of intent to run than there are vacancies on the Board.***

Agree with eliminating a nominating committee - it's hard enough to find volunteers for the board itself. Absolutely anyone who wants to run should be listed on the ballot. I can't rationalize not allowing write ins or nominations from the floor though. (my state requires nominations to be allowed from the floor anyway).

They would have had better luck if they listed these as three separate items to vote on instead of a package. Maybe they are using the two reasonable ones to slide in the questionable one.

FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
Kerry,

Here are the Florida By-Laws:, Im including letter from residents Attorney

 ANNUAL MEETING.—The association shall hold a meeting of its members annually for the transaction of any and all proper business at a time, date, and place stated in, or fixed in accordance with, the bylaws. The election of directors, if one is required to be held, must be held at, or in conjunction with, the annual meeting or as provided in the governing documents.

PROXY VOTING.—The members have the right, unless otherwise provided in this subsection or in the governing documents, to vote in person or by proxy.
(a) To be valid, a proxy must be dated, must state the date, time, and place of the meeting for which it was given, and must be signed by the authorized person who executed the proxy. A proxy is effective only for the specific meeting for which it was originally given, as the meeting may lawfully be adjourned and reconvened from time to time, and automatically expires 90 days after the date of the meeting for which it was originally given. A proxy is revocable at any time at the pleasure of the person who executes it. If the proxy form expressly so provides, any proxy holder may appoint, in writing, a substitute to act in his or her place.

From Attorney Opinion:
I read through these proposed Amendments, and, knowing nothing more than what I read, I don't see why these changes would be necessary. What legitimate reason are they advancing for changing the manner of electing Directors from what it has been until now (and still is at the moment)? What is bad about it that warrants an overhaul? Maybe there are good reasons for reassessing the existing procedure but no one appears to be expressing them. Wouldn't it be appropriate in one context or another to require those who propose and sponsor the amendments to articulate why they're deemed necessary? I really think it is incumbent on the Board to provide that information if they have not already done so in some form. (THEY HAVE NOT! FW.)
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
As an annual meeting is a meeting of the members, the proposed amendment can be discussed in detail prior to voting. I see nothing I would object to.

Communication could be better, but unfortunately, lack of good communication is common.
FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
Thanks for your input.
Part of the problem is the lack of communication. There still is no explanation as to the reason for the amendments, so hopefully it will be discussed at the meeting.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
The first two proposed amendments seem fine to me. The reasons behind them are also obvious to me.

The third proposed amendment is ridiculous. An entrenched board majority could add directors such that they controlled a super majority and stay entrenched for many years.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Drat, I replied incorrectly. Everything I wrote about 2 & 3 should have been about 1 & 2. I don't think I understand the wording of 3 re: number of directors. We've seen on this forum many bylaws that say something like the board shall consist of 3 to five directors.

I don't know why Fred included the "proxy voting section" and calls it "FL Bylaws.' I don't know what that means. Fl statutes of some kind?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Both nominations from the floor and write-in candidates require that ballots be sent to owners even when there are the same number of candidates as open spaces on the Board. Eliminating those two requirements from Bylaws mean that the candidates can be elected via "acclamation" and no ballots must be sent out, which in CA, this means a double envelope, voting instructions' tec. This is not cheap.

99% of our voters do not vote AT the meeting. they mail in their ballots or drop them at the PM's office. It would be imporssible for a write in or nomination form the floor to succeed.

I still don't know WHY an owner objects. That owner's attorney's letter gives no reasons.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
I would add that there be added a specified notification requirement to ask for candidates each year. Intrenched boards often claim noone else runs for the board. But they actually do everything possible to avoid having anyone else run.

I don't like the vague 13 months from the last election. Why not just set a date and add an allowance for altering the data if need arises. Outside of a declared emergency, any change of the annual election must be announced to the members of the association at least 30 days before the original date.

Again, I'm biased for sure , I'm dealing with a rogue board who are using every trick in the book to suppress owner participation in the annaul election.
FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
Update: The State (Florida )has responded to my inquiry regarding these proposed amendments.

"Since they(The amendments ) are still in the proposed stage,no action can be taken, however, if voted upon and passed-ratified, then you may have cause for a hearing and mediation."
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredW5 on 03/04/2022 10:07 AM
Thanks for your reply, Sheila. For rome reason I couldn't attach the files.
To Summarize:
1: Board election annual meetings, as provided by the governing documents , have always been held on the second Tuesday of February. The proposed Amendment states that "The Annual Members Meeting shall be held on a date, and place and time determined by The Board Of directors from time to time, provided there shall be an annual meeting every calendar year, and to the extent possible, no later than 13 months after the last annual meeting."

2: There shall be NO nominating Committee, No Nominations From The Floor,and No write in candidates permitted. Any eligible member who indicates an interest in running MUST be placed on the ballot. Elections and Balloting are not requirerd unless more candidates file notices of intent to run than there are vacancies on the Board.

3: The Bylaws may provide for a method of determining the number of directors from time to time. The Board Shall consist of 3 Directors.Directors are required to be members of the ASSOCIATION (Changed from are NOT Required, to be members of the ASSOCIATION. (which is ok.)


You said someone asked why the board was proposing these changes and was told "to incorporate items in a more legible manner," which makes no sense to me . If they're referring to the agenda, the annual meetings tend to be a recap of the last year, discussing plans for the upcoming year and board elections. What's so difficult about that? If agenda items are an issue, save it for another board meeting or perhaps schedule a special home meeting, depending on the topic and how time sensitive it is.

You don't need to change the date of the meeting - our documents require the annual meeting be held in February, so it's a matter of picking a date that will provide enough time to get the notices out so people can return the proxies ( another conversation in itself).

I'm not sure the third item is necessary either, although I would require the number to be an odd one, so you don't have issues with ties. You could also say there must be at least three board members with a maximum of nine or seven. When I joined the board, there were 9, but as people moved away and apathy started to setvin, we dropped it to 7, and now we only have three.

Again, This isn't complicated - if the homeowners don't want this, they should make that clear, or at least demand a straight explanation - if the board wantsvthis, they need to do their homework and make their argument. Don't vote for It until they do - or vote them out if all of this is a prelude to some sort of power grab.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AdamL1 (UnitedStates)
Posts: 559
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredW5 on 03/04/2022 10:07 AM
Thanks for your reply, Sheila. For rome reason I couldn't attach the files.
To Summarize:
1: Board election annual meetings, as provided by the governing documents , have always been held on the second Tuesday of February. The proposed Amendment states that "The Annual Members Meeting shall be held on a date, and place and time determined by The Board Of directors from time to time, provided there shall be an annual meeting every calendar year, and to the extent possible, no later than 13 months after the last annual meeting."

2: There shall be NO nominating Committee, No Nominations From The Floor,and No write in candidates permitted. Any eligible member who indicates an interest in running MUST be placed on the ballot. Elections and Balloting are not requirerd unless more candidates file notices of intent to run than there are vacancies on the Board.

3: The Bylaws may provide for a method of determining the number of directors from time to time. The Board Shall consist of 3 Directors. Directors are required to be members of the ASSOCIATION (Changed from are NOT Required, to be members of the ASSOCIATION. (which is ok.)


My opinion:

#1: assigning a specific exact date is a bad idea. Not assigning a specific time window or time of year is a bad idea. A great general line would be something like: "the annual meeting to be held in the spring of each year, in the month of April or May. The Location shall be within the County of ____, preferably within the City of ____, as close to the HOA as reasonably possible."

#2: this is terrible. What is the motivation to restrict the nominations so much? Also, canceling elections is not OK. Even though there's not enough Candidates, in theory, each one needs to be voted in at each cycle. Just say something like "Any eligible candidate may nominated by noticing the Board/MC or by nominating from the floor."

#3: Why would you not specify the quantity? And personally, I don't like restricting to Members. There could be an amazingly competent potential Director that is renting the house or lives just outside the gates. Need to specify how many directors, even if it's a range of 3 to 5.
FredW5 (Florida)
Posts: 177
Posted:
Bottom line:
No one voted for the changes.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Well, that's the end of that - congratulations.

In light of your other conversation about the tree spraying, it would appear that, plus this issue demonstrates this board has a real problem with communication, so regardless of how the tree spraying issue ends, it may be time for a special homeowners meeting to bring this board to heel and reinforce the notion that they should be keeping homeowners informed of association issues in a timely manner. This doesn't mean the homeowners will agree with everything, but nothing a board does should ever be a surprise to the homeowners.

As a former board member yourself, you should know that better than anyone - maybe it's time to consider hooking up with some neighbors and return to the board? It may be a matter of determining if you should wait until the next election or take a look at your documents to see what it says about recalls.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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