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MarniD (Florida)
Posts: 39
Posted:
According to Florida law, mediation is required before a resident can bring forth a law suit to the HOA. Our documents read as the following:

Section 8 Association: Rules The Association's procedures for enforcing it's rules and regulations at all times shall provide the affected Owner with reasonable prior notice and a reasonable opportunity to be heard, in person, and through representatives of such Owners choosing.

Due to numerous requests to both the board as well as the property manager, regarding "selective enforcement" no meeting was ever scheduled because the board ignored the request regarding the false violations sent to the homeowner. In fact during a "special hearing" regarding this issue, the board did not even post an agenda, even though again, Florida law requires the agenda to be posted, but the board refused to post it, so the homeowner was harassed and called a liar in public, he had no idea it was coming. Mediation was the only answer. So, a lawyer was hired and he took the HOA to the required mediation.

Result: Nothing was accomplished, the HOA refused to budge. they are the board, period It cost $2500.00 to go to mediation, lawyers fees as well as the fees for the arbitrator. Total costs $3,000 and no resolution. The only option was a law suit, costing the homeowner a lot of money without any guarantee of winning.

Moral of the story, If you are going to go to mediation.

1. You DO NOT need a lawyer, only fill out the form, present it to the board and then they must choose an arbitrator and share the expense with you. The HOA has no choice but to arbitrate.
2. Present your case during arbitration, but do not expect to win. The HOA will always win, there is huge money in lobbyists who side with developers and builders and realtors who want these HOA developments because they get big bucks.

When I was an HOA VP we never had these issues, we treated the community like neighbors and no one ever had the "God" complex. We always met with a homeowner to try to come to an agreement. We once had a property that was a mess, long grass, weeds, and needed help so because the board was friendly, we went and talked to the man and found out he had terminal Cancer, so the neighbors rallied and mowed and trimmed and kept it up until he was able to sell his home. Today, a board can do anything they want and you have no rights. Court is expensive, and the judges usually rule in favor of the HOA.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
This sounds like you're the homeowner - and you lost. That's unfortunate, but remember, you could have gone straight to court and still lost the case. Lawsuits can be a 50/50 prospect at best - it comes down to who has the better case - and sometimes the better attorney. Or the right judge and sometimes all three, with a bit of dumb luck.

I still think alternative dispute resolution is worth a try - last chance before all the expense and headache of a trial. You said you could choose the arbitrator and there are assorted artists led on re web on what to consider. For example, it helps if you can find someone who's had experience in hearing HOA disputes. Someone who has gone through a certification program can also be useful, although that doesn't guarantee anything.

There may also be mediation programs. In a mediation, the mediator listens to both sides and tries to get the two to meet in the middle, whereas an arbitrator is similar to a judge - listen to both sides and then render a decision if possible, is prefer someone who's done both, as he or she may be more inclined to listen out for underlying causes of disputes and look to resolve that.

Now having said all that remember, the homeowners still control who's on the board. If a board acts like they can do what, it's because the HOMEOWNERS don't keep them under control. Likewise, there are homeowners who are completely unreasonable and think they should get what they want the way they want it. Life doesn't work that way - sometimes the answer is no, Whether you agree or not.

I'm sorry if your situation didn't work out - now you have to decide where you go from here. It may be You need to consider running for a seat on the board or supporting some like minded people. Good luck to you.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MarniD (Florida)
Posts: 39
Posted:
As far as running for a seat, the apathy in our community is overwhelming, only 11 people voted for the board out of almost 200 homes, and no one comes to the meetings. The board has free reign. Until this changes, the board will do what they want. They control everything including communication in our development. They run the only form of communication, a Facebook page and monitor and will not post anything they do not want the community to talk about but claim it is not an HOA page. They enforce some documents, but do not enforce others, they go after those they do not like sending false violation without fining, but just pure harassment meant to upset those receiving the violation. therefore the mediator said there is no loss, so nothing can be done.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarniD on 03/02/2022 6:39 AM
As far as running for a seat, the apathy in our community is overwhelming, only 11 people voted for the board out of almost 200 homes, and no one comes to the meetings. The board has free reign. Until this changes, the board will do what they want. They control everything including communication in our development. They run the only form of communication, a Facebook page and monitor and will not post anything they do not want the community to talk about but claim it is not an HOA page. They enforce some documents, but do not enforce others, they go after those they do not like sending false violation without fining, but just pure harassment meant to upset those receiving the violation. therefore the mediator said there is no loss, so nothing can be done.

FYI, the part in bold is exactly what they're supposed to be doing, especially with social media. The board is accountable for everything that appears on HOA sites, and any site that allows homeowner to post freely will collect misinformation, false accusations and defamatory comments, bad language, copyright violations, photos of minors posted without parents' permission, and other things that can result in legal action against the HOA. Our attorney tells us flat out not to allow homeowners to post, and if we do then we must monitor the site and remove any post that violates the site's Terms of Service - up to and including denying repeated violators access altogether.

The other stuff is obviously not good - and how on earth are you achieving quorum with only 11 votes out of 200 homes?

Unfortunately, the only practical way to get rid of a bad board is by electing new directors. Also unfortunately, if people are as apathetic as you say, it doesn't sound like enough people are seeing things the same way you are, and you need like minded allies to reform a dysfunctional board.

As with nearly all HOA issues, it will boil down to fix it, live with it, or move. There are limitations on anyone's ability to fix things, leaving only living with it or moving as options that individuals totally control themselves. It's the reality of HOA living that most people don't understand until they buy and have a bad experience.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/02/2022 9:43 AM
Posted By MarniD on 03/02/2022 6:39 AM
As far as running for a seat, the apathy in our community is overwhelming, only 11 people voted for the board out of almost 200 homes, and no one comes to the meetings. The board has free reign. Until this changes, the board will do what they want. They control everything including communication in our development. They run the only form of communication, a Facebook page and monitor and will not post anything they do not want the community to talk about but claim it is not an HOA page. They enforce some documents, but do not enforce others, they go after those they do not like sending false violation without fining, but just pure harassment meant to upset those receiving the violation. therefore the mediator said there is no loss, so nothing can be done.


FYI, the part in bold is exactly what they're supposed to be doing, especially with social media. The board is accountable for everything that appears on HOA sites, and any site that allows homeowner to post freely will collect misinformation, false accusations and defamatory comments, bad language, copyright violations, photos of minors posted without parents' permission, and other things that can result in legal action against the HOA. Our attorney tells us flat out not to allow homeowners to post, and if we do then we must monitor the site and remove any post that violates the site's Terms of Service - up to and including denying repeated violators access altogether.

The other stuff is obviously not good - and how on earth are you achieving quorum with only 11 votes out of 200 homes?

Unfortunately, the only practical way to get rid of a bad board is by electing new directors. Also unfortunately, if people are as apathetic as you say, it doesn't sound like enough people are seeing things the same way you are, and you need like minded allies to reform a dysfunctional board.

As with nearly all HOA issues, it will boil down to fix it, live with it, or move. There are limitations on anyone's ability to fix things, leaving only living with it or moving as options that individuals totally control themselves. It's the reality of HOA living that most people don't understand until they buy and have a bad experience.

Well said.
MarniD (Florida)
Posts: 39
Posted:
The board has said numerous times that the Facebook page is NOT AFFILIATED with the HOA, and they will not talk about anything HOA related. BUT, they make announcements, then turn off commenting. They can't have both.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarniD on 03/03/2022 4:36 AM
The board has said numerous times that the Facebook page is NOT AFFILIATED with the HOA, and they will not talk about anything HOA related. BUT, they make announcements, then turn off commenting. They can't have both.

Yeah, they're trying to have both. It also sounds like they haven't decided what the page is for, so it's a mishmash and not useful. Our attorney says flat out that the board should stay away from social media altogether, even personal pages - but if we insist on having it, the page should be used for information only (NO commenting or discussions). In general social media is not an appropriate place for conducting HOA business and usually causes many more problems than it solves.
MarniD (Florida)
Posts: 39
Posted:
The page was started by a resident when we did not have an HOA. People chatted, put up ideas for the community, at times complained about this or that, but then the guy decided he did not want to be an ADMIN anymore, so one of the HOA board members said she would take it over, and then invited the president of the HOA to also be an ADMIN. They posted a statement that this page was not affiliated with the HOA, and to direct any questions or comments to the property manager or the HOA and blah blah blah address. However, then they began to make announcements HOA related, like elections, or rules, or whatever, and when people tried to comment, they turned off commenting. They decide what people can post. Residents tried to converse regarding the election and they stopped it and said that page was not for that type of commenting, it only leads to discourse, so they shut it down. People then backed off and that led to the apathy.

During our last election, I asked for the HOA to have a zoom meeting where we could meet the candidates, they refused, stating that it would make it seem like they were favoring a candidate which they did not want to appear to do. We then asked if we could put up a post on Facebook where the candidates could give a platform, they also refused citing favoritism, So, we ended up having a meeting at one of the residents homes for the candidates, and who shows up? The president who is there to support her friend running for the board!!!! She is sitting next to a former board member who rips into into me calling me a liar and a troublemaker and spinning a false narrative of a fictional event.

To make things worse, the property manager never sends out ballots because "there is nothing in our documents" that governs elections, so they take a vote from the floor, 11 people vote, that is all that shows up. They do not allow anyone to speak, only vote, and their candidate gets in again.

I could go on all day, but bottom line is this, the HOA controls everything that is said or done in our community. We have no live meetings, only Zoom and they cut mics so people can't talk. Everyone is just done with it, and they just do not participate so the board feels like it can do what it wants to do with impunity.

The CCR's are not followed, they decide which ones to follow and will not even allow a meeting for a grievance, even though our documents plainly say we are entitled. I am beating my head against a wall with it since no one else seems to want to do anything, and so this is our reality. As long as the community allows it, it will be the way it is.

I asked a friend why she is like that and does not participate and she told me she wants to be "invisible" to the HOA and just live her life and as long as they stay away from her, she is happy. Just tell her what to pay in dues and she will pay it.

MarniD (Florida)
Posts: 39
Posted:
The page was started by a resident when we did not have an HOA. People chatted, put up ideas for the community, at times complained about this or that, but then the guy decided he did not want to be an ADMIN anymore, so one of the HOA board members said she would take it over, and then invited the president of the HOA to also be an ADMIN. They posted a statement that this page was not affiliated with the HOA, and to direct any questions or comments to the property manager or the HOA and blah blah blah address. However, then they began to make announcements HOA related, like elections, or rules, or whatever, and when people tried to comment, they turned off commenting. They decide what people can post. Residents tried to converse regarding the election and they stopped it and said that page was not for that type of commenting, it only leads to discourse, so they shut it down. People then backed off and that led to the apathy.

During our last election, I asked for the HOA to have a zoom meeting where we could meet the candidates, they refused, stating that it would make it seem like they were favoring a candidate which they did not want to appear to do. We then asked if we could put up a post on Facebook where the candidates could give a platform, they also refused citing favoritism, So, we ended up having a meeting at one of the residents homes for the candidates, and who shows up? The president who is there to support her friend running for the board!!!! She is sitting next to a former board member who rips into into me calling me a liar and a troublemaker and spinning a false narrative of a fictional event.

To make things worse, the property manager never sends out ballots because "there is nothing in our documents" that governs elections, so they take a vote from the floor, 11 people vote, that is all that shows up. They do not allow anyone to speak, only vote, and their candidate gets in again.

I could go on all day, but bottom line is this, the HOA controls everything that is said or done in our community. We have no live meetings, only Zoom and they cut mics so people can't talk. Everyone is just done with it, and they just do not participate so the board feels like it can do what it wants to do with impunity.

The CCR's are not followed, they decide which ones to follow and will not even allow a meeting for a grievance, even though our documents plainly say we are entitled. I am beating my head against a wall with it since no one else seems to want to do anything, and so this is our reality. As long as the community allows it, it will be the way it is.

I asked a friend why she is like that and does not participate and she told me she wants to be "invisible" to the HOA and just live her life and as long as they stay away from her, she is happy. Just tell her what to pay in dues and she will pay it.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
As I see it, the problem here is that the board is inconsistent *and* much of what you're objecting to is normal business practice in HOAs.

The good/normal business practices:

* trying not to show favoritism
* controlling the official information that's posted
* controlling participation during board meetings (it's the president's job to run the meeting, they *should* mute non-speakers, and homeowner participation in board meetings should be limited to the homeowner's "forum" section unless the board has specifically asked for feedback for a particular issue)
* controlling participation during the annual meeting (again, no one has a right to speak whenever they want to - there is an agenda that must be followed, and homeowners are typically allowed to speak during the Q&A or homeowner forum portion of the meeting only unless specifically asked to comment at other times)
* elections via in-person floor votes vs. mail-in ballots (unless your bylaws or state law say otherwise) - this is *very* common and is necessary if you allow nominations from the floor

The not-good:

* selective enforcement
* not holding hearings for violations
* ineffective handling of feedback from the community
* inconsistency in general (although some of this is inevitable in any HOA as directors come and go and the new folks have different ideas)

In general, a lot of people get upset with HOAs because they expect them to function like social organizations when they're actually corporations and are required by law to use a corporate form of governance.

This means that the board calls the shots - directors have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of the corporation, and this is what allows homeowners to hold them accountable. The buck stops with them. Homeowners have *no* duty to act in the best interest of the HOA, and may act in their own self-interest even if that is actually harmful to the HOA. This is why homeowners don't get to make the decisions except for a few specific things (eg. voting for directors at the annual meeting and voting on proposed amendments to the CC&Rs).

If directors behave as though they're running a club, they're not doing their jobs.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarniD on 03/02/2022 6:39 AM
They run the only form of communication, a Facebook page

Facebook is not the only form of communication available to you. Nothing is stopping you from knocking on your neighbors' doors and speaking to them. Nothing is stopping you from writing letters to them, to persuade them to join your cause and make changes to the board. If the board won't give you a list of addresses, get them from the county appraisal district or just drive around and write them down. You don't need names, you can address it to Neighbor.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 03/03/2022 7:23 AM
Posted By MarniD on 03/02/2022 6:39 AM
They run the only form of communication, a Facebook page


Facebook is not the only form of communication available to you. Nothing is stopping you from knocking on your neighbors' doors and speaking to them. Nothing is stopping you from writing letters to them, to persuade them to join your cause and make changes to the board. If the board won't give you a list of addresses, get them from the county appraisal district or just drive around and write them down. You don't need names, you can address it to Neighbor.


Many come on her to bytch and will not put in the work to make changes. Theyt often go away after a few bytching posts.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
You seem to be using mediation and arbitration interchangeably, they are different. Mediation is where a mediator tries to get the two parties to come to an agreement on their own. Both parties have to agree and the mediator has no say in the outcome, other than offering solutions. I was a mediator for about a year and the biggest problem I saw was that one, or both, parties showed up with no good faith intention to come up with a solution. They were only their because the court required, it in most cases. A mediator is often an attorney but in most states it is not required.

Arbitration is where an arbiter hears both sides and comes to a decision (similar to a judge). An arbiter is usually an attorney or a judge, I believe.

The main difference is there is nothing to lose in a mediation because you never have to agree to the proposed outcome. If you do not like it, you can go to court. With arbitration, it is usually done in lieu of court. If you lose, there is no appeal. This is why corporations often put mandatory arbitration in contracts.

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