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HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
I just found out that a vendor sent a bill in for partial payment of a project that we are accomplishing. The accounting department (belonging to our property manager) paid it without question. Per the terms of the contract that I signed, we should not been billed for anything at this time.

I'm annoyed because fixing this problem is requiring more e-mails, more communication, more personal time from me. We shouldn't have been billed in the first place, but the accounting department should not have paid it because the PM has a copy of the contract that I signed and it is clear that no payment was due at this time.

Is there anything that we should ask on behalf of our homeowners association? Clearly we should be refunded the improperly paid partial payment. Is there anything above and beyond that we should be compensated for this mistake?

I'm getting annoyed that I have to spend my personal time to fix the mistakes of the professionals that we hire.
MichaelH34 (North Carolina)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Keep in mind that trying to pull the money back is likely to create more headaches with a contractor that it sounds like you already have headaches with.

Is the issue that the HOA can't handle the expenditure at this time or simply that the payment shouldn't have been made?

If the latter, I'd suggest you just address it with the PM. You might need to put in place board approval of all large payments since you can't count on them to read the contracts.
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelH34 on 02/27/2022 9:49 AM
Keep in mind that trying to pull the money back is likely to create more headaches with a contractor that it sounds like you already have headaches with.

Is the issue that the HOA can't handle the expenditure at this time or simply that the payment shouldn't have been made?

If the latter, I'd suggest you just address it with the PM. You might need to put in place board approval of all large payments since you can't count on them to read the contracts.

It was nearly a $10,000 payment. I was expecting to pay this in April after our next round of assessments had come in rather than now. We still have money in the operating account but I don't like to wake up and find out that we have $10,000 less than expected becuase the vendor decided to issue a partial payment bill that was not covered by contract.

I think we'll be fine, but we have a lot of large expenses coming up and need to ensure that our assessment revenue comes in before paying all of them.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
-- For me, my vote as a director would depend on all the circumstances and the amount of money here. Conceivably, the HOA could ask for compensation from the manager for the manager's time in rectifying the situation. But this might be incredibly stingy. I do not see asking the vendor for anything other than returning the money paid in advance.

-- The mistake could be grounds for terminating the contract with either the vendor or the manager. Regardless of the amount, I would document this mis-step at a board meeting. Why? In case you need to terminate any contract you have with your PM or possibly the vendor.

-- The vendor needs to be put on notice as well not to pull this junk.

-- Hate me, but: Has your HOA fully complied with the covenants and bylaws? How about yourself as a director? If not, I think this is an argument to cut some slack to anyone else who makes a mistake.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
If this is the fault of the property manager, why haven't you spoken to him or her? If it's his/her company, it should be the manager's responsibility to fix - and you should make this clear. Give a deadline as to when you want an update and then wait to see if you get one on or before that time. put all this in writing. Then you can on doing whatever else you do until then.

Or - ask another board member to follow up. Oh wait, you NEVER ask them to do anything because you've never called them out on doing stuff they promised to do but didn't. My bad

As for the property manager, it would appear enough stuff has happened to warrant hiring another one. Why the board hasn't already discussed this, I'll never know. then again, I wonder if the property manager and accountant weren't already stressed with get something you complained about previously and simply made a mistake (because you never do...)

Maybe some of this is happening because you simply will not get out of the way and let these people do their job. Some of us have pointed out your tendency to micromanage, so why are you complaining about having to send emails and make phone calls?

If you have to use some of your time to address this instead of delegating, either shut up and do what's necessary or tell one of the board members he or she is now being tasked with following up and then let them do it. After the matter is resolved, you can address the property manager's future.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By HenryS7 on 02/27/2022 10:02 AM
It was nearly a $10,000 payment.
Have the board agree to ream all involved and make the vendor return it. It's too much to be sitting in the vendor's account without the work having been done.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
If the vendor's work has been good, give them a hard slap on the wrist, a stern warning and move on.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 02/27/2022 11:29 AM
If the vendor's work has been good, give them a hard slap on the wrist, a stern warning and move on.

I agree.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
I agree with John C and John T.

However, I would also make darn sure that the accounting department , property manager, and vendor receives a letter or documented email informing them that the invoice was paid in error and any future invoices from this company must first be approved by the board.

PUT IT IN WRITING.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
I agree with John C and John T.

However, I would also make darn sure that the accounting department , property manager, and vendor receives a letter or documented email informing them that the invoice was paid in error and any future invoices from this company must first be approved by the board.

PUT IT IN WRITING.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm with JohnT, JohnC & Laska also with strong written slap on the PM's wrists. I think Shelia has some good points too.

Off your topic, Henry, but I'm wondering if this work shouldn't be covered by reserves?
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/27/2022 12:32 PM

Off your topic, Henry, but I'm wondering if this work shouldn't be covered by reserves?

This would normally be a reserve budget item as opposed to operating budget, but our reserves are in not good shape due to errors on the part of the reserve study company. Thus, the Board has decided to spend operating budget so we can "beef up" reserves this year.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
So, if taking money out of operating to pay for a reserve item, have you thought exactly how you're going to reconcile your books, or is that something you will now blame on your accounting department?
HenryS7 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 336
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 02/27/2022 1:09 PM
So, if taking money out of operating to pay for a reserve item, have you thought exactly how you're going to reconcile your books, or is that something you will now blame on your accounting department?

I see no objection to paying for something out of operating that would qualify as a reserve item.

If there is an issue, please explain what the issue is...
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Didn't think you would.
LisaB21 (Texas)
Posts: 97
Posted:
In the future, with your new Property Management Company, be sure that they use something like StrongRoom so that you or someone else on the Board has to approve the payments going to Vendors before they are sent out. We used to sign checks at the monthly Board meetings for all accounts payables back in the old days, but now the PM, or our Community Accounting person, enters the AP item with back up invoice and any other paperwork necessary to the paper trail, into Strongroom. I receive notice of anything new that has been uploaded. I (as President of the HOA) sign into Strongroom and approve the invoices. The check to the vendor is not sent until I approve it. It is very easy to use and the approval of the invoices takes no time at all.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By n/a on 02/27/2022 9:43 AM
I just found out that a vendor sent a bill in for partial payment of a project that we are accomplishing. The accounting department (belonging to our property manager) paid it without question. Per the terms of the contract that I signed, we should not been billed for anything at this time.

I'm annoyed because fixing this problem is requiring more e-mails, more communication, more personal time from me. We shouldn't have been billed in the first place, but the accounting department should not have paid it because the PM has a copy of the contract that I signed and it is clear that no payment was due at this time.

Is there anything that we should ask on behalf of our homeowners association? Clearly we should be refunded the improperly paid partial payment. Is there anything above and beyond that we should be compensated for this mistake?

I'm getting annoyed that I have to spend my personal time to fix the mistakes of the professionals that we hire.

Why did the accounting department pay it? Who is your treasurer? and why isn't two BOD signatures on each payout? The way it works here is We get an email from accounting that there are
invoices to approve, then one by one two BOD's log in and approve each invoice, accounting does not just arbitrarily pay invoices without board approval.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Had this happen once. The vendor grabbed our work order without telling his boss or us. Woke up to find a retaining wall going up. We had to scramble to find the cash. It was a mess. Can empathize with you.

Just make sure it is established with accounting you are a HOA. There are rules to follow prior to approval. We have a 2 signature system in place as well.

Former HOA President
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
It looks like Henry has "left the building" (post count 0).
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I'd hate to think I or anyone else ran him off, but I remember telling Henry that he needed to calm down a bit, otherwise he was heading towards burnout if he continued with the micromanaging. Maybe that's what happened - or he got frustrated that no one was saying "oh, poor, poor Henry."

Most (all?) of us know board membership has its ebbs and flows and sometimes it's a colossal pain in the ass. You figure out pretty quickly what you can and can't put up with, and there's no shame in saying enough. Sometimes that has to happen before the rest of the board sees they have to do a little work and if everyone does something, the work gets done faster and blood pressure returns to normal (until the next episode).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 02/28/2022 1:45 PM
I'd hate to think I or anyone else ran him off, but I remember telling Henry that he needed to calm down a bit, otherwise he was heading towards burnout if he continued with the micromanaging. Maybe that's what happened - or he got frustrated that no one was saying "oh, poor, poor Henry."

Most (all?) of us know board membership has its ebbs and flows and sometimes it's a colossal pain in the ass. You figure out pretty quickly what you can and can't put up with, and there's no shame in saying enough. Sometimes that has to happen before the rest of the board sees they have to do a little work and if everyone does something, the work gets done faster and blood pressure returns to normal (until the next episode).

Well said. I think Henry left because he was disappointed that others didn't back him up 100% and agree with his way of thinking. I could be wrong and only Henry knows the real reason for his exit. For what it's worth I continue to think he brought a lot of value to the Board via his willingness to roll up his sleeves and get things done. However, he also may ultimately get himself and the Board in trouble with the mentality that he displayed here.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm sorry Henry left. IMO, he made really good progress as prez by changing from mostly email exchanges as ways to makes board decisions o complying with AZ statutes and hold actual in-person open board meetings. Henry wrote that meetings were more effective that online interminable exchanges for getting biz conducted.

Some of his queries, when not too trivial and picky, were interesting

I was disappointed in his attitude about his fellow owners, whom he did not want to attend their board meetings.

I was impressed with his considerable energy and willingness to learn. But not thrilled with a tendency to be evasive and to sometimes ignore statutes he didn't like.

On balance, I'd like to see Henry return to watch him continue to grow as a corporate director with the best interest of his community always at the front of his mind. To me, if directors always be loyal to their corporation, and take care doing due diligence about their issues, and proceed judiciously, they can't go wrong.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
The person was actually from Washington, not Arizona.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, right, Max. Henry started complying with WA statutes.

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