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DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
We are under declarant control, with a board president who is completely disengaged, so I am at a loss as to what I should do.

We are a community in which everybody pays a general monthly fee to pay for amenities and common areas. A portion of our community is set aside as a 55+ community. We have our own clubhouse and pool, and we pay a separate, additional monthly fee that is only to be used for our amenities.

Unfortunately, our property manager refuses to report our money separately. There is only one Balance Sheet and one Bank Account. They do, after my demanding, provide a separate P/L statement for our fees. At the end of 2021 our fees exceeded expenses by over $8,000. I repeatedly told the property manager that since we do not have a separate bank account or balance sheet, I fully expected our January 31 P/L sheet to show $8,000 in income, as carryover from the prior year.

Today the statements came out, and naturally that did not happen. Our $8,000 was moved into the community wide balance sheet. This is, btw, not the first time they incorrectly accounted for our money. The property manager bought a $9,000 golf cart and charged half of it to our 55+ amenities last year. Only at my insistence did they move it to a single line item in the general budget.

So my question is, is there any way that we residents can force the property manager to properly account for our money? They should be fired, but we are powerless to do so. Is here a legal recourse here? Do we have to lawyer up? Because in that case we would probably spend more money on an attorney than the $8,000. What are our options?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
So where do you think income comes from in a HOA? You do understand it is from dues payments right? It is not fed by other sources. The Developer is in control still and does what they want or need. Not sure what results you want from this?

Former HOA President
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/23/2022 4:49 PM
So where do you think income comes from in a HOA? You do understand it is from dues payments right? It is not fed by other sources. The Developer is in control still and does what they want or need. Not sure what results you want from this?

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Our governing documents specify what the funds can be used for. Our 55+ fees cannot be spent on anything other than our amenities. What I expect, is exactly that.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
If your relationship with the developer is good, David, try to meet and persuade them to have their MC set up a system that shows the contributions by all owners as separate from the contributions of the over-55 group for the relevant operation budget items.

the over-55 group also must have its own reserve account to repair/replace your pool clubhouse, etc. components. Acertifed reserve analyst should give you estimates of every comment in a study.

OR you might be able to have the Board meet and vote to direct the MC to make these entities separate.

Does your condominium plan a or budget needed for state approval of your project or your CC&Rs have percentages broken down? Let's say, for instance, that there's one total electric bill. If so, all owners might pay 85% of it, and the over-55s 15% because of the electricity needed for the pool & clubhouse. Abetter example might be landscaping.

I don't see a way to get the 55-group to force the developer to do anything. What such a. group COULD do is all chip in to hire a lawyer for a few hours to make sure everything is accounted for fairly. There also are budget specialists who can make sure each group is considering an equitable amount.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/23/2022 5:58 PM
If your relationship with the developer is good, David, try to meet and persuade them to have their MC set up a system that shows the contributions by all owners as separate from the contributions of the over-55 group for the relevant operation budget items.

the over-55 group also must have its own reserve account to repair/replace your pool clubhouse, etc. components. Acertifed reserve analyst should give you estimates of every comment in a study.

OR you might be able to have the Board meet and vote to direct the MC to make these entities separate.

Does your condominium plan a or budget needed for state approval of your project or your CC&Rs have percentages broken down? Let's say, for instance, that there's one total electric bill. If so, all owners might pay 85% of it, and the over-55s 15% because of the electricity needed for the pool & clubhouse. Abetter example might be landscaping.

I don't see a way to get the 55-group to force the developer to do anything. What such a. group COULD do is all chip in to hire a lawyer for a few hours to make sure everything is accounted for fairly. There also are budget specialists who can make sure each group is considering an equitable amount.

I don’t think I explained. These are single family homes. I don’t have a relationship of any kind with the developer - he has become totally disengages. He does not return text or emails. I have not physically been in his presence in over a year and have not spoken to him in two months. Since he is the board, and I am just the sole resident board member, I cannot get him to do anything.

As far as the finances, it’s pretty simple. All 500 homeowners pay $95/month, which pays for a clubhouse, pool, maintenance of common areas, property manger, etc. The 150 of us who live in the 55+ section pay a separate $25/month, which pays for our own clubhouse and pool. The governing documents are quite clear that our $25 can only be used for our clubhouse.

However, at the end of the year, when our 55+ fees exceeded our 55+ expenses, the property npmanager swept it all into the general fund, so it can be (improperly) used for items other than our clubhouse and pool.

With no functioning board to make the property manger correct this, I don’t know what I can do. Can I go to the attorney general in our state?
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
We are under declarant control, with a board president who is completely disengaged, so I am at a loss as to what I should do.


The HOA is under declarant control. Its not your HOA yet.... Basically they can do anything they want and there is nothing you can do. You should have known this before buying. Its likely the board president can make no decisions, so there is no reason to be engaged.

Good luck.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 02/23/2022 6:27 PM
We are under declarant control, with a board president who is completely disengaged, so I am at a loss as to what I should do.


The HOA is under declarant control. Its not your HOA yet.... Basically they can do anything they want and there is nothing you can do. You should have known this before buying. Its likely the board president can make no decisions, so there is no reason to be engaged.

Good luck.

I believe you are incorrect. They can’t for instance, drain our bank account. We are operating under a contract and laws. They cannot violate the contract or laws that apply.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Wait, I still think a group of you can hire an HOA attorney to help you.

I have no idea what Delaware ware offers as help for HOAs.

does your over-55 have a reserve study?
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/23/2022 6:31 PM
Posted By SteveM9 on 02/23/2022 6:27 PM
We are under declarant control, with a board president who is completely disengaged, so I am at a loss as to what I should do.


The HOA is under declarant control. Its not your HOA yet.... Basically they can do anything they want and there is nothing you can do. You should have known this before buying. Its likely the board president can make no decisions, so there is no reason to be engaged.

Good luck.


I believe you are incorrect. They can’t for instance, drain our bank account. We are operating under a contract and laws. They cannot violate the contract or laws that apply.

Also, the board President can make all decisions. He is the only one that can make decisions, as he is the developer.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/23/2022 6:32 PM
Wait, I still think a group of you can hire an HOA attorney to help you.

I have no idea what Delaware ware offers as help for HOAs.

does your over-55 have a reserve study?

No reserve study for the whole community or the 55+.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
I believe you are incorrect. They can’t for instance, drain our bank account. We are operating under a contract and laws. They cannot violate the contract or laws that apply.


Ahh...... your new here. Happens all the time. Start reading the archives.....

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 02/23/2022 6:49 PM
I believe you are incorrect. They can’t for instance, drain our bank account. We are operating under a contract and laws. They cannot violate the contract or laws that apply.


Ahh...... your new here. Happens all the time. Start reading the archives.....


Sorry. When you said the developer can do anything he wants, I assumed you meant he can legally do anything he wants.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The Developer OWNS the HOA. The owners do NOT. So what is happening in your HOA is in the hands of the Developer till turn-over. What is or is not "legal" is subjective. Your allowed to see the records you got. Not allowed to manipulate it to what you think it should be.

Again a HOA is ONLY funded by it's members for it's members. There isn't a "magical" tree of money funding a HOA somewhere. So to be upset that there wasn't more "income" means there wasn't any more collection of dues by the owners. If you have 100 owners and each is charged a $10 dues, then the HOA income is $1000. Anything else in the budget is most likely what the Developer has funded out their own money. Most HOA developers under charge the first few years to attract buyers. It is usually after turnover the dues increase as expenses increase the HOA has to pay.

A HOA is typically a non-profit but NOT a charitable one.

Former HOA President
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/24/2022 4:00 AM
The Developer OWNS the HOA. The owners do NOT. So what is happening in your HOA is in the hands of the Developer till turn-over. What is or is not "legal" is subjective. Your allowed to see the records you got. Not allowed to manipulate it to what you think it should be.

Again a HOA is ONLY funded by it's members for it's members. There isn't a "magical" tree of money funding a HOA somewhere. So to be upset that there wasn't more "income" means there wasn't any more collection of dues by the owners. If you have 100 owners and each is charged a $10 dues, then the HOA income is $1000. Anything else in the budget is most likely what the Developer has funded out their own money. Most HOA developers under charge the first few years to attract buyers. It is usually after turnover the dues increase as expenses increase the HOA has to pay.

A HOA is typically a non-profit but NOT a charitable one.

Again, the governing documents specify that the 55+ assessment can only be used for maintenance of the 55+ Clubhouse/pool. This is a contract that is a legal document and must be followed. The developer cannot use that money to buy himself a new car, and he cannot use that money on the community at large.

Some of you act as if the developer is not bound by the governing documents.

You need to read my posts again more carefully. The 55+ residents paid $8,000 more in fees than we spent maintaining our clubhouse. That money, by contract, must remain in the 55+ balance, so it can be spent only on our clubhouse and pool.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/24/2022 4:00 AM
The Developer OWNS the HOA. The owners do NOT. So what is happening in your HOA is in the hands of the Developer till turn-over. What is or is not "legal" is subjective. Your allowed to see the records you got. Not allowed to manipulate it to what you think it should be.

Again a HOA is ONLY funded by it's members for it's members. There isn't a "magical" tree of money funding a HOA somewhere. So to be upset that there wasn't more "income" means there wasn't any more collection of dues by the owners. If you have 100 owners and each is charged a $10 dues, then the HOA income is $1000. Anything else in the budget is most likely what the Developer has funded out their own money. Most HOA developers under charge the first few years to attract buyers. It is usually after turnover the dues increase as expenses increase the HOA has to pay.

A HOA is typically a non-profit but NOT a charitable one.

btw, since you seem to believe the developer can do whatever he wants with our money, do you agree that as party to a contract filed with the town and the federal government, he must adhere to standard accounting practices?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Let us break this down to you... A Developer purchase land to build houses on. Let's say they buy 101 Acres. 1 Acre for Amenities and 100 for homes. They sell the lots for 10K a piece for people to build on. The Developer gets this money. The Developer also creates an HOA. That they own. How is it first funded? By the sell of those lots and dues paid by the new buyers. That money is used for varies HOA items such as paying for those amenities. Which installing a pool is much cheaper than maintaining one. That is what when the owners own the HOA will be paying for. Not installation.

Right now I don't see a need for any reserve accounts or savings unless the Developer decides to do that. There is nothing to reserve for at this time. Reserves are for long term capital items such as roofs or roads etc... The stuff is new and/or covered by the Developer.

The Developer isn't beholden to the owners yet. Mine provides a simple break down of expenses/collections once a year on a small spreadsheet when dues are due. That is all I need at this point. It will give me an idea what will need to cover when we do get the HOA owner controlled.

Again NOT your battle...

Former HOA President
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I agree with Kerry's take on this.

Even though you are under declarant control and you can't force that person to do anything, he needs to be aware of the rules governing 55+ communities (*) and the fact that he may lose that designation if the rules aren't followed. It would be a good idea if others in that section were also aware of these rules, since at some point you'll be in control and will need to know these things. I think pooling your money and buying a few hours of a knowledgeable lawyer's time would be worth it.

(* The 55+ designation is an exemption from Fair Housing laws that allow these communities to legally discriminate based on age. In exchange for that, the communities have some strict procedures that must be followed, such as periodic re-certification that residents are in the correct age group. I'm far from an expert on this, but I would also be concerned about keeping money separate - it may have more consequences beyond just annoyance.)
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/24/2022 4:41 AM
Let us break this down to you... A Developer purchase land to build houses on. Let's say they buy 101 Acres. 1 Acre for Amenities and 100 for homes. They sell the lots for 10K a piece for people to build on. The Developer gets this money. The Developer also creates an HOA. That they own. How is it first funded? By the sell of those lots and dues paid by the new buyers. That money is used for varies HOA items such as paying for those amenities. Which installing a pool is much cheaper than maintaining one. That is what when the owners own the HOA will be paying for. Not installation.

Right now I don't see a need for any reserve accounts or savings unless the Developer decides to do that. There is nothing to reserve for at this time. Reserves are for long term capital items such as roofs or roads etc... The stuff is new and/or covered by the Developer.

The Developer isn't beholden to the owners yet. Mine provides a simple break down of expenses/collections once a year on a small spreadsheet when dues are due. That is all I need at this point. It will give me an idea what will need to cover when we do get the HOA owner controlled.

Again NOT your battle...

Again, none of this is relevant to my issue. If you refuse to read, with an attempt at comprehending, my post, then you should stop replying.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/24/2022 4:45 AM
I agree with Kerry's take on this.

Even though you are under declarant control and you can't force that person to do anything, he needs to be aware of the rules governing 55+ communities (*) and the fact that he may lose that designation if the rules aren't followed. It would be a good idea if others in that section were also aware of these rules, since at some point you'll be in control and will need to know these things. I think pooling your money and buying a few hours of a knowledgeable lawyer's time would be worth it.

(* The 55+ designation is an exemption from Fair Housing laws that allow these communities to legally discriminate based on age. In exchange for that, the communities have some strict procedures that must be followed, such as periodic re-certification that residents are in the correct age group. I'm far from an expert on this, but I would also be concerned about keeping money separate - it may have more consequences beyond just annoyance.)

I guess spending money on an attorney is our only resolution. To be clear, though, the issue is not that the subsection of our community that is 55+ could lose our designation. The issue is that our property manager, likely through incompetence and not malice, is taking money from the 55+ assessment and giving it to those who do not live in the 55+ side.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
I guess spending money on an attorney is our only resolution.


Word of advice...... the lawyer is will go to whatever length you approve to represent you. If this means spending $25k in billable hours, he will gladly do it. As for the developer, lets say you sue him, you will not be suing him, but his company. The HOA. And what money is he going to use for his legal fees? Yours.

I suppose you could have a lawyer write a letter to the developer asking for changes. They may take it a little more seriously if it came from a lawyer. But as far as taking any real legal action, its a loose/loose situation.

Its very common for people to want changes while still under developer control and the developer usually says no and nothing can be done.

PS. Its pretty easy to justify, legally on paper, a golf cart to use for work. Doesn't matter if you dont like it. If he wanted he could buy a Ferrari and use it for maintenance if he wanted to.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 02/24/2022 5:20 AM
I guess spending money on an attorney is our only resolution.


Word of advice...... the lawyer is will go to whatever length you approve to represent you. If this means spending $25k in billable hours, he will gladly do it. As for the developer, lets say you sue him, you will not be suing him, but his company. The HOA. And what money is he going to use for his legal fees? Yours.

I suppose you could have a lawyer write a letter to the developer asking for changes. They may take it a little more seriously if it came from a lawyer. But as far as taking any real legal action, its a loose/loose situation.

Its very common for people to want changes while still under developer control and the developer usually says no and nothing can be done.

PS. Its pretty easy to justify, legally on paper, a golf cart to use for work. Doesn't matter if you dont like it. If he wanted he could buy a Ferrari and use it for maintenance if he wanted to.

Well, that is the conundrum I identified earlier, and that is why I posted my question. The PM absolutely misappropriated $8,000 of the 55+ people's money. This is not a question. But hiring an attorney would probably cost more than $8,000. So I am curious if there is some other solution. Say, get the state involved. Is there a state board of some kind that would intervene on our behalf?

Note, though, that we cannot use HOA money to sue him - because we don't control the HOA and could not get approval for the expense. We would have to pool our money as individuals. Again, not a good option.

Also note that the issue with the golf cart is that he used 55+ people's money to pay for it. This is the entire point of my issue, and one that seems to be escaping people. There are 150 people in the 55+ side, and 350 people who are not. The 55+ folks pay a separate assessment that is to be used to pay for our clubhouse and pool. The PM is using it for other things, which violates our governing documents.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/24/2022 5:01 AM
... snip ...
To be clear, though, the issue is not that the subsection of our community that is 55+ could lose our designation. The issue is that our property manager, likely through incompetence and not malice, is taking money from the 55+ assessment and giving it to those who do not live in the 55+ side.

My concern is that mixing funds could have negative consequences beyond violating your governing docs and unfairness, and that's what I'd want some legal advice about.

Fair Housing laws are pretty unforgiving, and since the 55+ designation is a recognized exemption, you want to make sure you're not setting yourselves up for (expensive) legal trouble in the future. I worked in a 55+ community (on the sales side), and we had to be very careful about what we said - all marketing materials had to be vetted by our legal department, and we couldn't ad lib or "get creative". If it's important to be that picky about glossy brochures, I would expect pickiness in other areas.

The other issue is that since you have your own amenities, a portion of your assessments should be earmarked for repair and replacement of those amenities. I assume that the 55+ owners are solely responsible for this, the rest of the community wouldn't pitch in. So it's important that the money be kept separate. Again, I'm concerned that if someone looked closely at this, they may decide that your section is not being kept separate enough to deserve the Fair Housing exemption, which could result in legal trouble. It doesn't have to be malice to have dire consequences - incompetence does just fine on its own.

Even if the declarant won't make changes now, I personally would want to know about potential risks like this.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:


Well, that is the conundrum I identified earlier, and that is why I posted my question. The PM absolutely misappropriated $8,000 of the 55+ people's money. This is not a question.


I dont see it as misappropriated. If the developer visits the clubhouse 1 time with the golf cart, it would be a justified expense for "maintaining" the 55+ clubhouse. I'm not saying its right..... just saying its legal.

State wont care. Nothing criminal. No smoking gun.

I dont believe you would be in danger of loosing 55+ status of your community because its still under construction, and developer control. So legally its not even finished.

Not the advice you want to hear......

When the HOA is turned over to the people who live in the HOA you can make whatever changes you want.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 02/24/2022 6:01 AM


Well, that is the conundrum I identified earlier, and that is why I posted my question. The PM absolutely misappropriated $8,000 of the 55+ people's money. This is not a question.


I dont see it as misappropriated. If the developer visits the clubhouse 1 time with the golf cart, it would be a justified expense for "maintaining" the 55+ clubhouse. I'm not saying its right..... just saying its legal.

State wont care. Nothing criminal. No smoking gun.

I dont believe you would be in danger of loosing 55+ status of your community because its still under construction, and developer control. So legally its not even finished.

Not the advice you want to hear......

When the HOA is turned over to the people who live in the HOA you can make whatever changes you want.

The golf cart is not what I'm talking about with misappropriating money. The PM did, in fact, correct the bookkeeping error relating to the golf cart - because it was purchased specifically for going through the community looking for violations, not for upkeep on the clubhouses. That issue was resolved.

The misappropriation I am speaking about in this thread is that they took $8,000 of the 55+ assessment, paid by 150 residents, and moved it into the general fund, for the use of all 500 residents. In violation of our government documents.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/24/2022 5:50 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/24/2022 5:01 AM
... snip ...
To be clear, though, the issue is not that the subsection of our community that is 55+ could lose our designation. The issue is that our property manager, likely through incompetence and not malice, is taking money from the 55+ assessment and giving it to those who do not live in the 55+ side.


The other issue is that since you have your own amenities, a portion of your assessments should be earmarked for repair and replacement of those amenities. I assume that the 55+ owners are solely responsible for this, the rest of the community wouldn't pitch in. So it's important that the money be kept separate.

Yes, that is exactly what this thread is about. We pay a separate assessment for those amenities. But the PM took $8,000 of that money and moved it into the general fund.

I have been arguing for a year that the 55+ assessment needs its own bank account and it's own balance sheet. I do see your point, though, that in addition to this misappropriation having a financial burden on the 55+ residents, it could endanger our FHA standing.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Do not think you are getting it. The Developer is not going to risk losing that 55+ designation due to the money and tax breaks it provides his company. The IRS could care less about what your documents say. Those are your restrictions. The IRS looks at tax returns not HOA documents. Unless your developer decides to lose the tax break it is not going anywhere.

They say HOA's are for newlyweds and nearlydeads. You my friend are on the nearly dead side that is a cash cow of many benefits. Those newlyweds pay dearly for.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Master and Sub Association discussion follows. The 55+ community is the Sub.

Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/23/2022 4:34 PM

Unfortunately, our property manager refuses to report our money separately. There is only one Balance Sheet and one Bank Account. They do, after my demanding, provide a separate P/L statement for our fees. At the end of 2021 our fees exceeded expenses by over $8,000. I repeatedly told the property manager that since we do not have a separate bank account or balance sheet, I fully expected our January 31 P/L sheet to show $8,000 in income, as carryover from the prior year.

Today the statements came out, and naturally that did not happen. Our $8,000 was moved into the community wide balance sheet. This is, btw, not the first time they incorrectly accounted for our money. The property manager bought a $9,000 golf cart and charged half of it to our 55+ amenities last year. Only at my insistence did they move it to a single line item in the general budget.

So my question is, is there any way that we residents can force the property manager to properly account for our money? They should be fired, but we are powerless to do so. Is here a legal recourse here? Do we have to lawyer up? Because in that case we would probably spend more money on an attorney than the $8,000. What are our options?


Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/23/2022 5:24 PM

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Our governing documents specify what the funds can be used for. Our 55+ fees cannot be spent on anything other than our amenities. What I expect, is exactly that.


DavidG45, would you please quote the covenants that state the 55+ fees may only be spent on the 55+ community's amenities? Also please pay particular attention to any covenant that might possibly give the still-in-control Declarant the right to move money from the 55+ side to the non-55+ side.

I think the following is one amazing observation:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/24/2022 5:50 AM
The other issue is that since you have your own amenities, a portion of your assessments should be earmarked for repair and replacement of those amenities. I assume that the 55+ owners are solely responsible for this, the rest of the community wouldn't pitch in. So it's important that the money be kept separate. Again, I'm concerned that if someone looked closely at this, they may decide that your section is not being kept separate enough to deserve the Fair Housing exemption, which could result in legal trouble. It doesn't have to be malice to have dire consequences - incompetence does just fine on its own.
I may have more to say in this vein. I am gathering my thoughts to see if I think there is a bona fide violation of the FHA's provisions on 55+ housing here, and right now. As CathyA3 says, such a violation may be in the form of how the 55+ community is advertised. Or CathyA3 will maybe post a further profundity on the point.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 7:05 AM
Master and Sub Association discussion follows. The 55+ community is the Sub.

Posted By DavidG45 on 02/23/2022 4:34 PM

Unfortunately, our property manager refuses to report our money separately. There is only one Balance Sheet and one Bank Account. They do, after my demanding, provide a separate P/L statement for our fees. At the end of 2021 our fees exceeded expenses by over $8,000. I repeatedly told the property manager that since we do not have a separate bank account or balance sheet, I fully expected our January 31 P/L sheet to show $8,000 in income, as carryover from the prior year.

Today the statements came out, and naturally that did not happen. Our $8,000 was moved into the community wide balance sheet. This is, btw, not the first time they incorrectly accounted for our money. The property manager bought a $9,000 golf cart and charged half of it to our 55+ amenities last year. Only at my insistence did they move it to a single line item in the general budget.

So my question is, is there any way that we residents can force the property manager to properly account for our money? They should be fired, but we are powerless to do so. Is here a legal recourse here? Do we have to lawyer up? Because in that case we would probably spend more money on an attorney than the $8,000. What are our options?


Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/23/2022 5:24 PM

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Our governing documents specify what the funds can be used for. Our 55+ fees cannot be spent on anything other than our amenities. What I expect, is exactly that.


DavidG45, would you please quote the covenants that state the 55+ fees may only be spent on the 55+ community's amenities? Also please pay particular attention to any covenant that might possibly give the still-in-control Declarant the right to move money from the 55+ side to the non-55+ side.

I think the following is one amazing observation:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/24/2022 5:50 AM
The other issue is that since you have your own amenities, a portion of your assessments should be earmarked for repair and replacement of those amenities. I assume that the 55+ owners are solely responsible for this, the rest of the community wouldn't pitch in. So it's important that the money be kept separate. Again, I'm concerned that if someone looked closely at this, they may decide that your section is not being kept separate enough to deserve the Fair Housing exemption, which could result in legal trouble. It doesn't have to be malice to have dire consequences - incompetence does just fine on its own.
I may have more to say in this vein. I am gathering my thoughts to see if I think there is a bona fide violation of the FHA's provisions on 55+ housing here, and right now. As CathyA3 says, such a violation may be in the form of how the 55+ community is advertised. Or CathyA3 will maybe post a further profundity on the point.


Note: "Limited Common Elements" refers to the clubhouse/pool area that are only for the use of residents in the 55+ section, which is referred to as "the Legacy" portion of our community.

Under "Common Expenses" we have this section:

"After completion of the Limited Common Elements, expenses of (i) administration, maintenance, mowing, landscaping and repair of Limited Common Elements, (ii) snow and ice removal from the Limited Common Elements, and (iii) repair and replacement reserves
for the Limited Common Elements, which may only be assessed against the Legacy Owners, equally."

This is a fee that is a separate line item on our monthly bill. How that fee is used seems to be pretty specific.

Consider the alternative. The Board could reduce the general assessment to $1 per month. They could then increase the 55+ assessment to $300/month. They could effectively have the 150 people in the 55+ section pay the entire HOA expenses.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
DavidG45,

Can you please quote for me the sections of the Master's and the Sub's Declarations (one for each) that state how the assessment is supposed to be calculated?

Also is there any verbiage in the two Declarations about excess funds and what should be done with them?

I know what common sense says. Plus I agree with your concerns. But so far, I do not quite see the language that nails this. I tend to think it is there. But we (you) have not quite put your finger on it.

Is the Sub association here its own corporation, with the latter corporation being distinct (at least per the Delaware Secretary of State's records) from the Master Association's corporation?

I am still pondering CathyA3's point. So far all I have is the following: if the Master and Sub mix their funding, does this violate boundaries set out in the law that say where the 55+ community ends and where the Master non-55+ community begins? I am going to start by reviewing what the definition of a 55+ community is.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 7:05 AM
... snip ...

I think the following is one amazing observation:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/24/2022 5:50 AM
The other issue is that since you have your own amenities, a portion of your assessments should be earmarked for repair and replacement of those amenities. I assume that the 55+ owners are solely responsible for this, the rest of the community wouldn't pitch in. So it's important that the money be kept separate. Again, I'm concerned that if someone looked closely at this, they may decide that your section is not being kept separate enough to deserve the Fair Housing exemption, which could result in legal trouble. It doesn't have to be malice to have dire consequences - incompetence does just fine on its own.

I may have more to say in this vein. I am gathering my thoughts to see if I think there is a bona fide violation of the FHA's provisions on 55+ housing here, and right now. As CathyA3 says, such a violation may be in the form of how the 55+ community is advertised. Or CathyA3 will maybe post a further profundity on the point.


Hoping I did the HTML correctly here...

I'm far from an expert on these communities. It's just that if missteps in something like advertising can cause problems, I'd be concerned that missteps in other "more serious" areas could do the same. Not saying that this would necessarily happen, only that I'd want to rule it out.

The 55+ communities I'm familiar with were whole communities, not sub-associations within a larger master association. I did some quick checking online, and noticed a tendency of 55+ sub-associations to have their own PMs and to operate as separate entities. So they're giving up any operational and economic efficiencies that could result from acting as a single entity. I assume there are reasons for this, so that's another reason to ask about it.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/24/2022 8:09 AM

I'm far from an expert on these communities. It's just that if missteps in something like advertising can cause problems, I'd be concerned that missteps in other "more serious" areas could do the same. Not saying that this would necessarily happen, only that I'd want to rule it out.

The 55+ communities I'm familiar with were whole communities, not sub-associations within a larger master association. I did some quick checking online, and noticed a tendency of 55+ sub-associations to have their own PMs and to operate as separate entities. So they're giving up any operational and economic efficiencies that could result from acting as a single entity. I assume there are reasons for this, so that's another reason to ask about it.
Where I am struggling with

FHA law

a non-55+ Master

but a 55+ Sub subject of course to the 55+ provisions of the FHA

is my belief that, sure, a 55+ Sub can lawfully have some portion of its assessments be payable to the Master and still be a lawful 55+ community under the FHA.

The federal government enforces the FHA via direction from the Code of Federal Regulations. Here's the meaty part of the CFRs as the CFRs pertain to 55+ communities:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2017-title24-vol1/xml/CFR-2017-title24-vol1-part100-subpartE.xml

Section 100.306 refers to covenants demonstrating that a 55+ community intends to operate as housing for folks 55+ or older (as the latter is defined by law). But this section does not say paying a portion of the 55+ community's assessments to a master is disallowed.

Still, the Sub is advertised as a 55+ community that complies with certain, recorded covenants. Some of the Sub's covenants pertain directly to supporting 55+ people's needs. Arguably a separate "55+ only" pool directly supports older people. Because it's a 55+ community, the senior citizen swimmers are allowed to say, "We do not want kids in our pool" and face no repercussions from HUD. If the Declarant is, say, taking money away from the 55+ pool's reserves, then could one argue that the Sub and Master are violating covenants, that are well advertised, that make the Sub a 55+ community?

I feel like my argument is strained. I cannot quite nail it. I do think the point about the FHA here and 55+ community does deserve a mention. But the bulk of the argument against what the OP described may lie more simply in what the covenants say about how assessments are to be used, both post-declarant and while the Declarant is still in control.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 8:33 AM
Because it's a 55+ community, the senior citizen swimmers are allowed to say, "We do not want kids in our pool" and face no repercussions from HUD. If the Declarant is, say, taking money away from the 55+ pool's reserves, then could one argue that the
Note: there may be major caveats to the above. E.g. while 80% of the residents have to be 55+, this leaves 20% who do not have to be 55+. Can the 55+ community lawfully disallow kids in the pool? How about a residents' grandchildren who are visiting for a few days? I am not sure.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
If you cannot persuade the developer to instruct the property manager to do as you wish (which I think is both right and reasonable) you can either file a lawsuit or wait until the association is turned over to homeowner control.

All the things the developer "can't" do are contingent upon someone holding them accountable. That someone is the membership.

There is no government oversight of HOAs.

Your governing documents are a private contract, enforceable by the parties involved, through the court.

There is no government body, no attorney general, no ombudsman, no city council, etc that will force a board (developer or homeowner) to obey their governing documents. Even in states with laws about what an HOA can and can't do - there is no government body, AG, ombudsman, city council, etc who will investigate and enforce those laws on behalf of the membership.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 8:33 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/24/2022 8:09 AM

I'm far from an expert on these communities. It's just that if missteps in something like advertising can cause problems, I'd be concerned that missteps in other "more serious" areas could do the same. Not saying that this would necessarily happen, only that I'd want to rule it out.

The 55+ communities I'm familiar with were whole communities, not sub-associations within a larger master association. I did some quick checking online, and noticed a tendency of 55+ sub-associations to have their own PMs and to operate as separate entities. So they're giving up any operational and economic efficiencies that could result from acting as a single entity. I assume there are reasons for this, so that's another reason to ask about it.
Where I am struggling with

FHA law

a non-55+ Master

but a 55+ Sub subject of course to the 55+ provisions of the FHA

is my belief that, sure,
The federal government enforces the FHA via direction from the Code of Federal Regulations. Here's the meaty part of the CFRs as the CFRs pertain to 55+ communities:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2017-title24-vol1/xml/CFR-2017-title24-vol1-part100-subpartE.xml

Section 100.306 refers to covenants demonstrating that a 55+ community intends to operate as housing for folks 55+ or older (as the latter is defined by law). But this section does not say paying a portion of the 55+ community's assessments to a master is disallowed.

Still, the Sub is advertised as a 55+ community that complies with certain, recorded covenants. Some of the Sub's covenants pertain directly to supporting 55+ people's needs. Arguably a separate "55+ only" pool directly supports older people. Because it's a 55+ community, the senior citizen swimmers are allowed to say, "We do not want kids in our pool" and face no repercussions from HUD. If the Declarant is, say, taking money away from the 55+ pool's reserves, then could one argue that the Sub and Master are violating covenants, that are well advertised, that make the Sub a 55+ community?

I feel like my argument is strained. I cannot quite nail it. I do think the point about the FHA here and 55+ community does deserve a mention. But the bulk of the argument against what the OP described may lie more simply in what the covenants say about how assessments are to be used, both post-declarant and while the Declarant is still in control.


Re: the part in bold, I think this is more a reflection of what happens in a typical master association with sub-associations. The people in the subs pay two assessments, one for their share of master expenses (streets, etc) and a second for the sub-only expenses. So I believe this arrangement is perfectly legal if the sub a 55+, but it does argue for the importance of separate balance sheets.

(I have no idea about kids in pools, though, and it's a good question. If I had to guess, since 55+ laws do allow a certain percentage of residents under the age of 55 (often limited to those 18 and above) and some could be children (although this is not common and may be for a limited duration) I suspect the community could not say "no kids". But IANAL. More info here.}
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
David

You are at the mercy of the Declarant. The MC is hired by the Declarant. The MC does not call the shots. The Declarant does. The only way I see you making a change is legally forcing it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
David, since there is no "agency" of any kind to help you, you & the other over-55 group need the advice of an attorney. Try to get all to chip in to pay the attorney. It's possible you'd only need a a few hours of their time. Unlike Steve, I'm not talking about suing. But some sort of demand letter from an appropriate attorney to the declarant that he instruct the PM to bill the entities properly.

Also note that your declaration says there must be a reserve account to repair/replace the limited common areas of your over-55 entity.

Has you HOA undergone an audit? If so, what it says might be important.

What size is the board supposed to be while still under develop control? This might be in your Bylaws. Is it only you & the declarant?

Do ignore Melissa. Steve used to contribute a lot and has been MIA for quite a while--a few years?-- I'm glad he's back, but I recall that his "help" was often quite negative.

Cathy & Augustin seem to be onto something important that might need the help of an attorney too.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Thanks for telling people to ignore free advice.

Former HOA President
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 02/24/2022 9:14 AM
If you cannot persuade the developer to instruct the property manager to do as you wish (which I think is both right and reasonable) you can either file a lawsuit or wait until the association is turned over to homeowner control.

All the things the developer "can't" do are contingent upon someone holding them accountable. That someone is the membership.

There is no government oversight of HOAs.

Your governing documents are a private contract, enforceable by the parties involved, through the court.

There is no government body, no attorney general, no ombudsman, no city council, etc that will force a board (developer or homeowner) to obey their governing documents. Even in states with laws about what an HOA can and can't do - there is no government body, AG, ombudsman, city council, etc who will investigate and enforce those laws on behalf of the membership.


Thanks. That is the information I'm looking for. We will just need to do an audit when we gain control of the board.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 8:44 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 8:33 AM
Because it's a 55+ community, the senior citizen swimmers are allowed to say, "We do not want kids in our pool" and face no repercussions from HUD. If the Declarant is, say, taking money away from the 55+ pool's reserves, then could one argue that the
Note: there may be major caveats to the above. E.g. while 80% of the residents have to be 55+, this leaves 20% who do not have to be 55+. Can the 55+ community lawfully disallow kids in the pool? How about a residents' grandchildren who are visiting for a few days? I am not sure.

While this is off subject, I can tell you without hesitation 55+ communities can and do place age restrictions on residents. In ours, nobody under 19 can live here more than 90 days out of a year. And nobody under the age of 19 is allowed in the pool or clubhouse. Although we do allow children in the pool from 10:30am to 1:00pm every day, for visiting grandchildren. I have reviewed the laws extensively.

There are caveats. If a death in the family requires a resident to take custody of a child, for instance.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Steve used to contribute a lot and has been MIA for quite a while--a few years?-- I'm glad he's back, but I recall that his "help" was often quite negative.


I'm not negative, I'm direct and to the point. I'm not going to tell you things are colorful and fluffy and its going to be ok.

I'm just going to give it to you straight. If something is going to go bad, I'm going to tell you that.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/24/2022 2:28 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 8:44 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 02/24/2022 8:33 AM
Because it's a 55+ community, the senior citizen swimmers are allowed to say, "We do not want kids in our pool" and face no repercussions from HUD. If the Declarant is, say, taking money away from the 55+ pool's reserves, then could one argue that the
Note: there may be major caveats to the above. E.g. while 80% of the residents have to be 55+, this leaves 20% who do not have to be 55+. Can the 55+ community lawfully disallow kids in the pool? How about a residents' grandchildren who are visiting for a few days? I am not sure.


While this is off subject, I can tell you without hesitation 55+ communities can and do place age restrictions on residents. In ours, nobody under 19 can live here more than 90 days out of a year. And nobody under the age of 19 is allowed in the pool or clubhouse. Although we do allow children in the pool from 10:30am to 1:00pm every day, for visiting grandchildren. I have reviewed the laws extensively.
This makes sense and now rings a bell. As long as the 55+ community ensures that at least 80% of its residents are 55+; as long as it is doing the FHA required surveys; and a bit more; the community may impose all manner of other types of age restrictions.

Regarding government oversight of HOAs: Several states do have state-run agencies that are dedicated to helping HOAs/COAS and their owners to settle a number of types of HOA disputes. Delaware is one of them. The OP should see:

https://attorneygeneral.delaware.gov/fraud/cpu/ombudsperson/

https://attorneygeneral.delaware.gov/fraud/cpu/ombudsperson/internal-dispute-resolution-process/

Maryland, Florida, and I think Virginia are all states that have government agencies dedicated to helping resolve (or actually resolving) a number of types of HOA/COA disputes. The legislatures created these agencies because of how the courts were being backed up by HOA/COA disputes.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Good resources for you David, from Augustin!

Re: Those under 19 not being allowed to use the pool all of the the time in your over 55 section. Are you certain that's legal in your state? I've come to. know how careful you are, but I truly wonder about that restriction
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/26/2022 8:24 PM
... snip...

Re: Those under 19 not being allowed to use the pool all of the the time in your over 55 section. Are you certain that's legal in your state? I've come to. know how careful you are, but I truly wonder about that restriction

I'd also want to get a knowledgeable lawyer's opinion on that. Many of the 55+ communities that I know about allow minors to stay in the community for short periods (up to a couple months or so), so it would surprise me to know that they can't use the pool.

(Personal opinion: I have an issue with Fair Housing laws and pool usage in general. The law doesn't recognize that adults and children use the pool differently - adults often want to exercise and swim laps, kids want to horse around and play. This means that if both groups use the pool at the same time, the lap swimmers will probably get jumped on or run into, the kids will get kicked or run into. The upshot of that is that adults can't use the pool at all except during random, unpredictable times when no kids are there.

When I was a youngster, the pools in my area allowed kids to swim from the top of the hour to a quarter of, when the lifeguards would blow the whistle, the kids got out for a 15-minute rest period, and the adults would get in. The adults would swim their laps or whatever, and at the top of the hour everybody swapped again. Everyone got their turn to use the pool in the way that suited them, just not at the same time. This strikes me as completely fair as well as safer - in fact it favors the kids - and it is now completely illegal as are any other schemes involving adult-only swim times. It's why I won't buy in a community with a pool.)
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/27/2022 4:38 AM
[interesting comments snipped that AFAIC continue to support the appropriateness of an attorney's consult on the points raised]

(Personal opinion: I have an issue with Fair Housing laws and pool usage in general. The law doesn't recognize that adults and children use the pool differently - adults often want to exercise and swim laps, kids want to horse around and play. This means that if both groups use the pool at the same time, the lap swimmers will probably get jumped on or run into, the kids will get kicked or run into. The upshot of that is that adults can't use the pool at all except during random, unpredictable times when no kids are there.
I think you are saying that, in a HOA/COA that is not subject to the FHA 55+ requirements (so no age restrictions), you feel the families without kids are being discriminated against. Hence this discrimination against families without kids violates FHA's prohibition on familial status discrimination?

I know the history of the Fair Housing Act indicates the purpose of the familial status section (added in 1988) was to stop landlords and other housing providers from keeping families with kids out. The 1988 amendments expressly states that "familial status" concerns families with kids under the age of 18 (including pregnant women). On the other hand, I could swear I saw authoritative legal chatter on how a HOA/COA that set age restrictions (without kids or pregnancies being involved) without meeting the 55+ requirements would be violating Fair Housing law for familial status. In other words, I believe a HOA/COA that does not meet the 55+ FHA requirements and prohibits under 40-year old people from living there would be violating the Fair Housing Act.

Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/27/2022 4:38 AM

When I was a youngster, the pools in my area allowed kids to swim from the top of the hour to a quarter of, when the lifeguards would blow the whistle, the kids got out for a 15-minute rest period, and the adults would get in. The adults would swim their laps or whatever, and at the top of the hour everybody swapped again. Everyone got their turn to use the pool in the way that suited them, just not at the same time. This strikes me as completely fair as well as safer - in fact it favors the kids - and it is now completely illegal as are any other schemes involving adult-only swim times. It's why I won't buy in a community with a pool.)
I hope you mean that it's illegal for housing providers to set adult only swim times. I do not think adult only swim times are illegal at municipal pools and, say, country clubs. Fair housing law does not apply to municipal pools and country clubs.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/26/2022 8:24 PM
Good resources for you David, from Augustin!

Re: Those under 19 not being allowed to use the pool all of the the time in your over 55 section. Are you certain that's legal in your state? I've come to. know how careful you are, but I truly wonder about that restriction

Yes, it was checked into extensively.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/26/2022 8:24 PM
Good resources for you David, from Augustin!

Re: Those under 19 not being allowed to use the pool all of the the time in your over 55 section. Are you certain that's legal in your state? I've come to. know how careful you are, but I truly wonder about that restriction

Yes, it was checked into extensively.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/27/2022 4:38 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/26/2022 8:24 PM
... snip...

Re: Those under 19 not being allowed to use the pool all of the the time in your over 55 section. Are you certain that's legal in your state? I've come to. know how careful you are, but I truly wonder about that restriction


I'd also want to get a knowledgeable lawyer's opinion on that. Many of the 55+ communities that I know about allow minors to stay in the community for short periods (up to a couple months or so), so it would surprise me to know that they can't use the pool.

(Personal opinion: I have an issue with Fair Housing laws and pool usage in general. The law doesn't recognize that adults and children use the pool differently - adults often want to exercise and swim laps, kids want to horse around and play. This means that if both groups use the pool at the same time, the lap swimmers will probably get jumped on or run into, the kids will get kicked or run into. The upshot of that is that adults can't use the pool at all except during random, unpredictable times when no kids are there.

When I was a youngster, the pools in my area allowed kids to swim from the top of the hour to a quarter of, when the lifeguards would blow the whistle, the kids got out for a 15-minute rest period, and the adults would get in. The adults would swim their laps or whatever, and at the top of the hour everybody swapped again. Everyone got their turn to use the pool in the way that suited them, just not at the same time. This strikes me as completely fair as well as safer - in fact it favors the kids - and it is now completely illegal as are any other schemes involving adult-only swim times. It's why I won't buy in a community with a pool.)

Municipal pools still have ā€œadult swimā€ hours. But not HOA’s.

Our attorney explained that the best option was to make rules behavior based, not age based. So during early morning hours you can only swim laps. In the evening we have ā€œquiet hoursā€ during which no toys are allowed in the pool, no music may be played, etc.

It allows adults to use the pool in an adult manner without discriminating against children.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
"I think you are saying that, in a HOA/COA that is not subject to the FHA 55+ requirements (so no age restrictions), you feel the families without kids are being discriminated against."

Yes, I believe that current Fair Housing laws do in fact discriminate against adults in non-55+ communities, although it's not explicit, it's probably unintended, and it only surfaces in some situations.

For example, if an adult wanted to swim laps, he couldn't if there were kids in the pool - not safely anyway. Kids won't watch out for an adult, so the adult has to watch out for the kids. If the adult would just say "the heck with it" and assume others would get out of his way, somebody would get hurt. Then the adult would probably be cited and maybe lose pool privileges - and rightfully so, because he was not adjusting his behavior to take in account the risks that exist. But the risks *always* exit except randomly and unpredictably, which boils down to the adult being unable to swim laps at all, which I think should be a reasonable use for a pool.

Another example: an HOA hosting something like a wine tasting party is probably a violation of the Fair Housing Act because minors can't participate. Of course people who want these things can just hold private parties, and HOAs can hold events without alcohol. (Question: can adults reserve the clubhouse for their private wine tasting? I don't know.) But I think the Fair Housing laws also ignore the fact that there are some situations that are not appropriate for minors but are perfectly reasonable for adults, and these situations are illegal in non-55+ communities unless they're held privately.

Quote:
I hope you mean that it's illegal for housing providers to set adult only swim times. I do not think adult only swim times are illegal at municipal pools and, say, country clubs. Fair housing law does not apply to municipal pools and country clubs.

Yes, that's what I meant. But I think that adult-only swim times in non-55+ communities should be acceptable if they're like what I encountered at the local pools. Everybody got to use the pool safely throughout the day in the ways they wanted to. My issue is that the law has outlawed even reasonable things like that, with the result that a large group of residents (who are payin' fer the danged pool, I might point out) can't use it unless they want to just splash around and work on their skin cancers.

Oh well, it's not that huge an issue for me personally: I don't much care about drinking alcohol, and I don't live in a pool community by choice. And probably OT.

But to get back on topic, I do question whether a 55+ community can keep visiting minors out of the pool or if the 55+ exemption is across the board (can't live here permanently = can't use any of the recreational facilities) - especially since my comments above hint at children having a somewhat privileged status.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/27/2022 8:23 AM
But to get back on topic, I do question whether a 55+ community can keep visiting minors out of the pool or if the 55+ exemption is across the board (can't live here permanently = can't use any of the recreational facilities) - especially since my comments above hint at children having a somewhat privileged status.
I do hear you. I do not wish to live in a community where kids are making noise et cetera. But I know my position goes against the law. I believe the 1988 FHA amendment adding 'no discrimination against families with kids under the age of 18' arose because landlords and housing providers, finding families with kids under about age 18 objectionable, had been forcing families with young kids into areas with worse school districts. If I recall correctly, the studies presented on the topic were pretty compelling that this discrimination (against families with young kids) tended to result in sub-standard living conditions for kids. I am not trying to convert anyone. But I will say the history behind the 1988 amendment sure raised my awareness of why familial status discrimination is a big deal.

On the other hand, I am glad there are 55+ communities that do provide a refuge for old geezers like myself who want peace and quiet.

On the third hand, I was a pretty noisy kid at times. I am grateful the nice suburban neighborhood where I grew up allowed me to live there.

Anyway, you may be right and Fair Housing law has gone overboard when it comes to protecting kids, to the detriment of kids' safety (and discipline; yeah, that's the ticket), for one.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/27/2022 7:21 AM
I could swear I saw authoritative legal chatter on how a HOA/COA that set age restrictions (without kids or pregnancies being involved) without meeting the 55+ requirements would be violating Fair Housing law for familial status. In other words, I believe a HOA/COA that does not meet the 55+ FHA requirements and prohibits under 40-year old people from living there would be violating the Fair Housing Act.
For the archives, some of this legal chatter on the point:

The federal Fair Housing Acts do not expressly ban discrimination based on age. Nevertheless, it is definitely forbidden under the broader prohibition against discrimination on the basis of familial status.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/renters-rights-book/chapter5-2.html

The HUD.gov site is less generous on the point, saying the housing provider must be government funded for the prohibition on discrimination on the basis of age to apply, per the 1975 federal Age Discrimination statute.

Perhaps the question of whether a (non-government) housing provider may discriminate on the basis of age, and not be in violation of the federal FHA, in a non 55+ community is unsettled law. Nolo and others may be speculating.

Some sites point out that state and local laws sometimes prohibit discrimination in housing on the basis of age.

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